View Full Version : Pardon Equals Grounds For Impeachment
Gayle in MD
07-04-2007, 08:39 AM
It's true that the Constitution grants the president unlimited clemency and pardon power. But presidents have generally used that power to show mercy or, in rare cases, make political amends -- not to protect themselves from exposure.
The Framers, ever sensitive to the need for checks and balances, recognized the potential for abuse of the pardon power. According to a Judiciary Committee report drafted in the aftermath of the Watergate crisis: "In the [Constitutional] convention George Mason argued that the President might use his pardoning power to 'pardon crimes which were advised by himself' or, before indictment or conviction, 'to stop inquiry and prevent detection.' James Madison responded:
"[I]f the President be connected, in any suspicious manner, with any person, and there be grounds [to] believe he will shelter him, the House of Representatives can impeach him; they can remove him if found guilty. . . .
"Madison went on to [say] contrary to his position in the Philadelphia convention, that the President could be suspended when suspected, and his powers would devolve on the Vice President, who could likewise be suspended until impeached and convicted, if he were also suspected."
Gayle in Md.
07-04-2007, 10:37 AM
From the Constitution Convention 1787, responding to concern the President could pardon his own confederates in treasonous wrongdoing
"[i]f [the President] be himself a party to the guilt[,] he can be impeached and prosecuted."
- THE RECORDS OF THE FEDERAL CONVENTION OF 1787, at 626 (Max Farrand ed., 1911) (reprinting James Madisonís notes).
07-04-2007, 11:16 AM
That may be why he didn't pardon him. The fine and conviction still stand. Still kind of steep for outing a secretary.
07-04-2007, 11:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote PoolFool:</font><hr>Still kind of steep for outing a secretary.
PoolFool <hr /></blockquote>
You forgot the smiley face or end sarcasm tag.
07-04-2007, 11:54 AM
A lot more than "in-ing" a cigar into Monica. CIA operative status, that's a biggie, plus lies under oath, several...there's tons of difference. On top of that, it's fairly obvious to any kind of an unbiased thinker that the WH, the prez and VP were the sheltered beings to produce this crime. Sucky representation of the USA democracy to the rest of the world for any clemency. sid
Gayle in MD
07-05-2007, 08:01 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Still kind of steep for outing a secretary.
<font color="red">I do hope you're joking. Ms. Plame's Secret Covert NOC status has been documented by the CIA, the FBI, the DOJ, four Federal judges, a Grand Jury, a special prosecutor, twelve jurors, and Plame herself, under oath.
People unaware of the broad continuous lies spread by the laughable right wing press, and the neocons, and Scooter Libby's friends, also neocons, and the hateful liars, like Limbaugh, and Coulter, make complete fools of themselves, making false statements, over and over again.
Bush said he would take care of anyone involved in leaking classified information. As in everything else he has done, he lied. Cheney, Bush, Rove and Libby, were all involved, according to Libby's own testimony, and the testimony of nine White House aides, a number of reporters, hand written evidence in the Vice President's hand, interagency e-mails, and the Special Prosecutor, along with statements by the judge and jury.
Fortunately, the ranks of those Americans who still trust in the neocon self serving theories and lies, are fast shrinking. I hope you aren't among those who still deny reality, in spite of vast documentation,.... PROOF.
Gayle in Md. </font color>
Gayle in MD
07-05-2007, 08:12 AM
True, and particularly when considering they outed a WMD expert, CIA, NOC, agent, in order to protect their own lies about WMD's, which they used to invade a country illegally, after exploiting the fears and concerns, and patriotism of Americans after 9/11.
The only expert abilities of Bush and Cheney, and company, are their expertise in re-arranging facts, and telling lies, and knowing how to exploit Christians, and the nutty right-wing uninformed, for the benefit of their cronies, in their on-going theft of the taxpayers money, for the rich and connected.
Fred Thompson, McCain, Giuliani, and Romney, would gaurantee more of the same. Literally, every Republican who is running, who has called for Libby's pardon, should be viewed as no better than what we've had thus far from the present treasonists in the White House. IIRC, every one of them supported a pardon. Hence, a vote for any of the Republican Presidential contenders, is a vote for treason and fascism.
Gayle in Md.
07-05-2007, 03:16 PM
Was anyone ever been convicted of or even charged with outing a covert CIA agent?
07-05-2007, 04:36 PM
or how about this way:
HAS anyone ever been convicted of or even charged with outing a covert CIA agent?
Gayle in MD
07-06-2007, 06:30 AM
No, because Libby threw sand in the Umpire's face, to use the special prosecutor's statements, thereby obstructing Justice. Armetage worked at the State Department. Novak, has been close friends with Karl Rove, and Dick Cheney, for decades. E-mails, pertinent to this case, were deleted, as they were in the DOJ firings. Rove, was one of Novak's sources. Cheney told Libby Plame's status, originally, and Libby lied about it, trying to say that he learned about it months later, from Tim Russart. Russart's testimony, proved Libby's lies, along with testimony from nine White House Aides, who testified that the Vice President, Rove, Libby and the President, were all furious over Wilson's exposure of their lies about yellow cake.
Novak, hooked up with Cheney and Rove, goes over to State, to dig around for a second source. Libby leaking to Miller, and telling her not to say it came from the White House.
Cheney, writing sugggestions on how to slander Wilson, right on the article from the NY Times. Bush, using the false yellow cake claim, despite numerous State, and CIA warnings that the intel was seriously flawed, and should not be included in his address, and then having to go back on his statements. Intel that was considered laughable. An operation that the British memo called, Fixing The Intel To Support Policy.
Libby lied, to protect Cheney, and Bush, who put the wheels in motion which outed Plame, as an example to others who might speak out against the administration's lies that they used to go to war. Bush, commutes Libby's prison term, using reasons that are clearly against Federal Guildlines, after pushing for tougher Federal guidlines for decades, as part of his overall policy, and using such arguments as service to the country, and family hardships, which he knows damn well, cannot be considered by any judge according to Federal Sentencing Guidlines.
While Novak, uses Armitage, as ONE, of his sources, only his White House Sources, had both knowledge of Plame's status, and a motive, for intentionally leaking and exposing her identity. Testimony from nine White House aides, and a number of reporters, and a picture of Powell boarding AF1, with the CIA Report, including Plame's status, long before Libby said he learned it, proves that Libby lied to protect Cheney.
This is all about a President and Vice President, lying to the country, in order go to war, then punishing those who expose their lies, at the willing cost of outing a dedicated Secret Covert Agent, who's job was to protect this country from WMD's, their own war cry, and designating a fall guy to cover up their treasonist behavior, and the President, then commutes the sentence of Libby, who obstructed the investigation to protect Cheney, and Bush, so that Libby's appeals, will preclude the President from having to answer further questions regarding the entire treasonist actions, by all. That's been one of their tactics all along, can't talk about it, it's under investigation...and Libby's appeal, keeps it under investigation, until they leave. More tactics by Sly, Slick, Slimy and Wicked, and being defended by every single Republican Presidential candidate, most of whom were screaming for Clinton's impeachment over testimony, in a civil case!
Can't be political, when both the Judge, and the Special Prosecutor, were Republican Bush appointees. Can't be excessive sentencing, when the sentence is lower than the high end of Federal Guidlines. All excuses given by Bush, for the commutation, are against Federal Guidlines regarding what the judge may consider in his sentence. And the Armitage matter, has nothing to do with the Rove and Libby outings, according to the guidlines, one must know the agent is covert, and out their identity, intentionally. Armitage did not know Plame's secret status, only that she worked in WMD. Rove, Cheney, Bush and Libby, did know, and there is proof that they knew, and set the wheels in motion, to intentionally expose her, in their effort to spread damning lies about Joe Wilson.
Lies, more lies to cover their lies, and then impeachable actions to block having to answer to their lies, on treasonist behavior.
Gayle in Md.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bobbyrx:</font><hr> or how about this way:
HAS anyone ever been convicted of or even charged with outing a covert CIA agent? <hr /></blockquote>
Sure but they are usually spies working for the enemy!
The Govt pointed a GIANT finger at Plame and shouted to Al Q and terrorists around the world, "here is a CIA WMD expert."
If an ordinary citizen had done this they would be in jail by now.
07-07-2007, 01:08 PM
Sorry to disagree with you....but Impeachment is the wrong punishment for these crimes...crimes against the American people/crimes against what this country is, and what it stands for/ and maybe even worse....crimes against the very Constitution that has governed this country and granted certain rights and freedoms to it's people for over 200 years.
They should march them all out on the White House Lawn....and hang 'em.....they represent "a clear and present danger"
AND while stupidity and greed isn't a crime....and we can't lock up the 30% that still think all this was worth the tax cut that GWB gave them.....I think they should be forced to register with the local authorities when they move into a new locale....these are the same folks that grab a gun and go down to McDonalds...and if their Big Mac doesn't have the requisite number of pickles on it......
07-07-2007, 02:18 PM
That all sounds so well packaged..exept if there IS proof of all this, then why is no one being prosecuted? Libby and Russert not agreeing on who told who what and when obstructs nothing. (and Russert earlier had told the FBI he might have mentioned Plame in the conversation). Armitage brought up the subject of Plame to reporters and Libby responded to questions from reporters about her. If there is proof Bush, Rove, Cheney, Libby knew she was covert and Armitage didn't then go after them. But there is no such proof, only speculation.
Gayle in MD
07-08-2007, 11:47 AM
You don't know what you're talking about. There is proof. According to the judge, there is overwhelming evidence, that the case could not be prosecuted because Scooter Libby obstructed justice.
Obstruct: 1. to block or close up by an obstacle.
2. to hinder from passage, action, or operation. IMPEDE
Armitage wouldn't even have been aware of Plame, without the White House launching their attacks, and spreading around lies about Joe Wilson, including Valarie's position with the CIA. Valarie, did not send Joe Wilson to Niger, her boss sent him, to try to satisfy Dick Cheney, who refused to accept the intelligence which said the assertions that Saddam was trying to buy Yellow Cake were laughable. Wilson exposed the administrations lies in the SOTU address. Cheney then launched a smear campaign against Wilson, and led the operation, through Rove and Libby, which caused the outing of a CIA Covert Agent. They knew she was covert. they['re all treasonists, but they were treasonists, long before this act of treason. they were committing treason when they began lying about Saddam having WMD, and connections to alQaeda. Half the right wing pundits, are still lying about that, and there are atleast 40% of the dummies in this country, who don't know any better.
"A lie travels round the world before the truth gets its pants on."
Good description of this administration's foreign policy operations.
Gayle in MD
07-08-2007, 12:24 PM
Actually, we agree. Maybe we should send them all out hunting with Cheney, or fishing with Bush. Can these two do anything right?
No one is prosecuted because they don't have the proof. Gayle can keep this charade up as long as she wants, who believes her anyways?
You ignored the pardon part of his response, why? Is a commutation a "type" of pardon or are the two separate? I really don't know since I have never heard of a commutation up to this point. Your subject heading is referencing a pardon and I thought Libby was commuted.
Gayle in MD
07-09-2007, 10:20 AM
The commutation was given to shield the White House from further exposure. With the sentence commuted, Libby can exercise his fifth ammendment rights. A pardon, would have forced him to testify, under oath, to the congress, and in other investigations. This is the circumstance quoted in Moblvs post...
[ QUOTE ]
"f [the President] be himself a party to the guilt[,] he can be impeached and prosecuted."
Q. is right, also. Libby struck a deal with the WH, when his lawyers agreed not to call Cheney to the stand. Bush kept him out of jail, and blocked further investigations into his own illegal activity, in one fell swoop, and will likely pardon him on his last day in office. He's protecting his own ass.
Nine US Attorney Generals stated to Congress that they were intimidated, pressured, and threatened, in some cases, by this administration to drop cases against Republicans, and push cases against Democrats.
This is also obstruction of Justice.
General Odem is calling for removal of our troops from the civil sectarian war in Iraq, even if congress has to impeach Bush to do so. I dare say, they won't have any problem finding cause. He's now trying to send our own border patrols to patrol the borders in Iraq.
Studies show that not a single Government agency, is functioning effectively.
The numbers of median income Americans falling into poverty levels has increased annually since Bush became president.
America does not have enough trained responders in the National Gaurd to respond effectively to a National disaster or emergency.
E-mails and calls to congress by citizens for impeachment are higher than ever recorded.
Administration officials have begun to downsize their interpretations of "Success in Iraq"
The Iraqi Parliament has a 60 to 70% no show among their elected officials. They are discussing a vote to throw Maliki out.
bin Laden has threatened a spectacular attack in the US in July, this month. Bush had a 2nd opportunity to kill him, and many of his top operatives, back in 2005, in Pakistan, and decided not to go forward.
Iraq has made no Political progress. Violence is increasing, not decreasing.
Saddam had no WMD's, or connection to alQaeda.
US Oil corporations are pushing for oil refining deals with the Iraqis.
Over 3601 American Troops have lost their lives in Iraq. Most of them are between the ages of eighteen and thirty.
England, having decided to double Kyoto limits, is enjoying huge job growth, through their efforts to protect the environment, and reduce dependency on Oil.
Dick Cheney still won't reveal the details of his secret meetings with Oil Industry Executives.
George Bush has borrowed more money than all our former Presidents, put together.
Our deficit is the highest ever.
There are many billions of tax payers dollars appropriated for Iraq, still unaccounted for.
Republicans blocked all oversight investigations into the administration's failures, and crimes, for six years.
The White House is blocking Rove, Rove's aide, and Meyers from testifying on the AG firings.
67% of Americans think Libby should have served his time in jail, and 70% think the country is headed in the wrong direction.
The last time the United States showed a trend of increased wages among the median income segments of society, five years in a row, was during the Clinton administration. Before that they had been realtively flat since 1972.
07-09-2007, 10:41 AM
Gayle Givem Hell. Don't let the midget brains get you down. More tomorrow.
07-09-2007, 11:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> You ignored the pardon part of his response, why? Is a commutation a "type" of pardon or are the two separate? I really don't know since I have never heard of a commutation up to this point. Your subject heading is referencing a pardon and I thought Libby was commuted.
eg8r <hr /></blockquote>
For the record, a pardon basically makes it as if there was never any conviction...a free pass.
Commuting a sentence is just a reduction of the sentence. The conviction still stands. Scooter was found guilty, and his new sentence is a quarter of a million dollar fine (which he has paid) and 2 years probation.
Yes, I totally understood all that but since Gayle was mentioning a Pardon in her subject heading it threw me for a loop and I wanted to know if a commute is a "type" of pardon.
[ QUOTE ]
The commutation was given to shield the White House from further exposure. With the sentence commuted, Libby can exercise his fifth ammendment rights. A pardon, would have forced him to testify, under oath, to the congress, and in other investigations. <hr /></blockquote> How does a pardon "force" anything. He could have just said everything else was a lie, and then told a lie again. He would still be free only it would not be on his record. If the WH had something to hide this would have been the best approach.
Since he was commuted and you made a post about a pardon and impeachment I just wanted to make sure a "commute" was not just a "type" of pardon.
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