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dave
07-18-2007, 11:53 AM
When your break is not working, how may times will you stick with that initial cueball position before moving it to another location ?

SPetty
07-18-2007, 11:53 AM
2

KellyStick
07-18-2007, 11:58 AM
2 sounds good. Try head ball and second ball from the side as contact on the rack too.

Chopstick
07-18-2007, 01:56 PM
Don't forget speed. It's the right speed from the right spot that gives results.

1Time
07-18-2007, 02:07 PM
Moving the cue around is the last thing I will change if not being as successful with my break as I'd like. There are several other variables I prefer adjusting before moving the cue, and usually it doesn't take much before things start going right again.

1Time
07-18-2007, 02:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> Don't forget speed. It's the right speed from the right spot that gives results. <hr /></blockquote>

This is hardly the case at all. Positive results can be achieved with various speeds from a variety of ball positions. Also, there are several other factors that come into play other than speed and cue ball location.

bsmutz
07-18-2007, 03:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>
This is hardly the case at all. Positive results can be achieved with various speeds from a variety of ball positions. Also, there are several other factors that come into play other than speed and cue ball location. <hr /></blockquote>
WHAT?!?!?!? Speed is definitely a big factor. I've rattled many balls on the break that would have definitely dropped if they weren't moving so fast. Besides/or including the contact point, pocket size, rail response, cloth speed, where the rack is in relation to the spot/rest of table, and potential gaps between balls, could you please elucidate us on what these other important variables are that have a greater affect than speed?

okinawa77
07-18-2007, 04:00 PM
I think your break depends on:
1. what game you are playing ( 3-ball, 7-ball, 8-ball, 9-ball, 10-ball, 15-ball, straight pool, 1 pocket, etc...)
2. the gaps in the rack and whether the rack is slanted

Joe Tucker has a lot of information on breaking. Check out www.joetucker.net (http://www.joetucker.net)

1Time
07-18-2007, 05:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr>
WHAT?!?!?!? Speed is definitely a big factor. I've rattled many balls on the break that would have definitely dropped if they weren't moving so fast. Besides/or including the contact point, pocket size, rail response, cloth speed, where the rack is in relation to the spot/rest of table, and potential gaps between balls, could you please elucidate us on what these other important variables are that have a greater affect than speed? <hr /></blockquote>
bsmutz,

A closer reading of what I posted earlier should make the following clear:
1) I did not indicate speed is not a big factor (as you indicated I did),
2) I did not indicate other factors are more important than speed (as you indicated I did),
3) I did not even indicate which factor is the most important, and
4) what I posted in response to Chopstick is accurate.

Off hand from the variables you sited, I would add the english applied to the cue ball, the angle at which the stick strokes the cue ball, the cue stick used, stance, grip and bridge. I assume there are others that are likely covered in the site previously provided, www.joetucker.net. (http://www.joetucker.net.)

ryushen21
07-18-2007, 07:09 PM
I usually give it about two tries before i move on. I usually have a variety of preferred spots that i try depending on the game that i am playing.

Like some others have said you have to take a lot of things into consideration: Table size, cloth speed, pocket size and most importantly rack tightness. If you have a good tight rack then almost any position will produce some kind of results.

I know that on the bar boxes I have played on I almost always break from the head position because there seems to be a noticeable amount of looseness in the rack and that head position break just works better for me.

As for the argument on speed, there is a lot to show that various speeds can be effective. The softer breaks, especially in 9-ball, can be great for controlling your CB position afterwards but you have to figure out the right spot in order to pocket a ball. Breaking with speed tends to give you a better distribution and more balls pocketed but you risk losing the CB to a position that may leave you with a tougher run or opening shot.

Sid_Vicious
07-18-2007, 07:41 PM
Have not read all of the responses, but I personally do not adjust the spot, but instead, vary my break speed. Many times a slower stroke will surprise you. Afterwards, if it still is lame, I move slightly, but not much...sid

Snapshot9
07-19-2007, 06:17 AM
I have 8 break shots for each game, 4 on one side, and reversed on the other side. Where I break from depends on how the balls are racked.

Like if I break from my most regular break spot and it is working, sometimes opponents will rack them high on the spot. Well, I have another break that works wonders with that, and simply switch, and bust 2-3 balls in with a good spread. After that, my opponent is a little bewildered as to how they should rack .... LOL

It simply is an unspoken chess game, you just have to be smarter than the average fox.

KellyStick
07-19-2007, 11:38 AM
I'm reading a lot of words that elude to there being a various types of breaks and various factors that affect the break. Several of these replies only elude to "something". Others mention some things like having different breaks but don't say what they are. Does anyone have anything specific and useful to share? Is it a secret? Not meaning to be mean but I found this thread to be annoying to read. On the other hand the original question was not about all this so maybe I am off base. Anyway...

I play mostly 8 ball. I have basically three breaks. One is the dead straight from the center to the head ball. The other is square to the head ball but from one diamond in from the side. The other is the eight ball on the break break which is two diamonds towards the rack as far to one side as possible and with draw to keep from scratching and hitting the second ball as square as possible w/o hitting the head ball of the rack. The only time I adust my break based on how the rack is laid is this last one. If one side seems to be more open I will hit to that side at the second ball. I always stroke the ball off the rail and not from a bridge hand on the felt. This may be wrong but that is what I do.

I use a break cue which is a bit heavier than my regular cue. But I do this mostly to keep from hammering my regular tip. I'm not real sure that is really all that necessary though. At the house I have a heavier one piece fiberglass cue that seems to break a ton. Bout the only thing it is goof for though.. I have heard some people use a heavy cue but some others prefer a light cue for speed. I think both actually work.

There was some mention to spin and how that affect the break. I would be interested in hearing more on that.

Someone mentioned adjusting the break to how the balls are racked I would be interested in hearing more on that.

One thing I have noticed is that the break seems to be according to the mood of the table. One night at our APA home bar the 8 on the break break was killer. Each shot had the 8 ball heading in the side. I made two that night and barely missed a third. My buddy also made two that night. The next week. Nothing. Or was it the people racking??? To be honest I don't have a good strategy for the break. If something does not work I try something else. On the other hand sometimes I prefer not to make anything on the break. You typically get to shoot again and frequently you get to shoot with less traffic and an easier run unless your opponent snookers you.

Deeman3
07-19-2007, 12:50 PM
Kelly,

I would recommend CeeBee's "The Great Break Shot" which goes into much more detail than any of us can here as well as contains the complete Joe Tucker book within it's pages.

The break is a very different thing for the obvious reasons that there are so many variables involved. There are some "secrets" but they are pretty much basic on the whole, for open break games, make good square contact and try to control the position of the cue ball. Beyond that, there are things to do for instance with loose racks, humid conditions, cue ball origin and even spin. However, while this is an entire science itself, most players must work out a workable break that they have the skill, strenth and control to use in most situations and try, as best they can, to control the variables in their break. The conditions they face on the table usually have no set change that works in all cases but most of us live by the rule that if something is not working, change something, be it speed, direction, cue ball origin or even your break cue. If you have mastered a style that is overall successful and you are having bad results, you are probably experiencing normal variation and the the randomness of success/failure but it at least helps us mentally to change something so we at least believe we are exercising more control over something that is very hard to control. I have seen soft breakers get balls on ten consecutive breaks and a hard breaker none and visa versa.

Charlie's book will make you understand the break much better and the reasons for some of the challenges we face. I don't think anyone here is saying they have mastered the break, at least for long periods. It's just too hard an animal to tame altogether. However, just increasing your knowledge and learning control, over power, IMHO, can make you more successful.

I would change after 2.73 unsuccessful break attempts... /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

That or let Fransisco break for you! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

dave
07-19-2007, 01:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote KellyStick:</font><hr> On the other hand the original question was not about all this so maybe I am off base. <hr /></blockquote>

Only a couple of people addressed the actual question, which was NOT on how, or where, to break. That's okay. It's just the nature of threads to go off on tangents. Thanks. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

1Time
07-19-2007, 03:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> I would change after 2.73 unsuccessful break attempts... /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman3,

I understand what you meant by 2.73 /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif, however were you referring to changing CB location, some other factor(s), or any combination of factors including CB location? Thanks

----------------------------------------------

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> Moving the cue around is the last thing I will change if not being as successful with my break as I'd like. There are several other variables I prefer adjusting before moving the cue, and usually it doesn't take much before things start going right again. <hr /></blockquote>

To clarify my previous on topic post, I coincidentally change something other than CB location every 2.73 breaks when I desire improved results. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Deeman3
07-19-2007, 03:26 PM
I did, in that case, mean I would change position of the cue ball but would change others factors if that were unsuccessful, with the order being,

Cue ball position

Speed of Break

I don't think it is that important that you even change in reality. Other factors you don't control and those you are not skilled enough to control completely probably make most of it a guessing game at best. To me, success on the break is very important against most players in 8 ball but only against fairly good players in nine ball.

I just do it (change things) because, to do nothing is against my activist nature.

1Time
07-19-2007, 03:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote KellyStick:</font><hr> On the other hand the original question was not about all this so maybe I am off base.<hr /></blockquote>

KellyStick,

It's apparent to me from your thoughtful post that you have a sincere interest in improving your 8-ball break. No crime there due to the importance of the break. I suspect Deeman3 gave you very good advise by referring you to that book (never read it). Another helpful source may be an instructional video on breaks; I know of none. If I could choose only one source from which to learn a break, however, it would be to learn in person from an instructor or more knowledgeable player whom you can trust. That said, I see no reason why you should not further risk benefitting from the wealth of knowledge and experience that frequents this forum. So, why not post your own thread asking for helpful tips on your 8-ball break?

1Time
07-19-2007, 04:17 PM
Deeman3,

Thanks for clarifying your previous post for me.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>
I don't think it is that important that you even change in reality. Other factors you don't control and those you are not skilled enough to control completely probably make most of it a guessing game at best. To me, success on the break is very important against most players in 8 ball but only against fairly good players in nine ball.

I just do it (change things) because, to do nothing is against my activist nature. <hr /></blockquote>

I'm sure obtaining desired break results is more of a guessing game or an illusion of control for most. However, for the better players a higher skill level surely yields a greater degree of actual control over obtaining desired break results, and not just as compared to lessor players but within one's own game.

It is of course true the balls roll funny for everyone, meaning there are uncontrollable factors. However, better players are better able to control the controllable factors (to whatever degree), thereby providing more favorable results more frequently.

I look at it this way; if whatever's not working, something's got to change. And, if whatever usually works relatively very well, it shouldn't take much of an adjustment to get things working again. At least this is the case with my game. The last thing I'd want to do in competition is change CB location where practice has shown I don't get my best results and then likely spend the next few break opportunities attempting to fine tune to what produces disired results.

1Time
07-19-2007, 04:30 PM
Double post.

okinawa77
07-19-2007, 05:50 PM
You mentioned the dead straight from center head string to center head ball break.
I usually use this break also, but only on bar tables or very loose racks. I learned this stroke from an old black guy in Denver, Colorado. He called it the old pro break.
My point of contact on the cue ball is above center, but I follow thru to below center. If done correctly, the cue ball slams into the rack, bounces back, then spins into the rack again....or what's left of it.

It is what is called a reverse english stroke. I have only seen 1 pro on TV use this stroke as his main stroke. He didn't do very well in the tourney, but it was interesting to watch.

I recently experimented using a variation of this stroke from the side. Basically, the 8 on the break position, but instead of hitting the second ball, I hit the head ball. The contact point is outside high following thru to inside low. I have found that the cue ball will slam into the rack and kind of kill the cue ball, or it will float to center table. Contact point on the head ball is key to the cue ball position. Sometimes, the cue ball would reverse spin and roll towards the foot rail. I am still working on this break. At first, I would break from the right side, but I realized breaking from the left side (shooting right handed)is much better from a mechanical perspective. Because breaking right handed from the right side using the reverse english stroke with some squirt and curve on it (also known as sling shot english) causes your right arm w/the cue to hit the right side of your body. Going to the left side break, your arm/cue moves away from your body.

But then again, what do I know....I didn't stay at Holiday Inn last night.

Sid_Vicious
07-19-2007, 09:08 PM
Revised answer from before, 10 times. Many proven solutions with many of those ten to avoid the move, but that's not the depth of knowledge you seem to want to hear. sid

Snapshot9
07-20-2007, 06:42 AM
To answer the original question, after 2 attempts with no success, I would change my break. Of course, I am pretty good at reading racks, so I might adjust after 1 unsuccessful break.

And my Breaking and Racking knowledge I have accumulated has been over 45 years of playing, and I just don't 'spill my guts' about it upon request ... sorry. Sometimes, you have to learn on your own, the same way other players did.

Deeman3
07-20-2007, 07:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr>
My point of contact on the cue ball is above center, but I follow thru to below center. If done correctly, the cue ball slams into the rack, bounces back, then spins into the rack again....or what's left of it.

<hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue"> I've used this break a few times many years ago, before I started the steroids, but have a couple of reasons to not like it. I feel, with the excessive top spin you have to use, you are wasting energy that could be put to better use with a center ball hit or slight draw. Secondly, while that jump back and smack back into the pack punch looks good, it increases your opportunity to hit the side of the rack if the balls have not departed enough and that is a dead scratch into the corner, much like coming from too far up on a 14.1 break out. Lastly, any extra movement of the cue ball, over time is just not a good thing. Any break that does not park the cue ball (while hoping you don't get an unlucky kick by another ball) is risking several bad things including scratching, not knowing where it will end up and putting it once more into an opportunity to stick into a cluster of balls balanced against the only positive thing, you might knock another ball in.

I'm not saying this break can't be effective but feel it has too many downsides to use as a normal high percentage break. Why add more varibles unless you increase the good outcomes vs. diminished poor outcomes?

I do not opwn any stock in Holiday Inn myself but was in Paris's Hilton once, front entrance. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif</font color>

Deeman3
07-20-2007, 07:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr> Going to the left side break, your arm/cue moves away from your body.

<hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue"> You can ask anyone one here, I never do anything from the left side! </font color>

DickLeonard
07-20-2007, 08:12 AM
Dave it took me years to finally believe in checking the rack. This is the secret to a good break.####

dave
07-20-2007, 09:29 AM
You did answer my question. You try other variables first, such as changing speed, before resorting to moving the cueball. The number of tries would depend on the number of variables you experimented with. Thank you.

dave
07-20-2007, 09:35 AM
An excellent point. I tend to be very lazy about checking the rack unless it's an obvious or careless slug rack. I'll take your advice and pay closer attention in the future.

Chopstick
07-20-2007, 09:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote KellyStick:</font><hr> I'm reading a lot of words that elude to there being a various types of breaks and various factors that affect the break. Several of these replies only elude to "something". Others mention some things like having different breaks but don't say what they are. Does anyone have anything specific and useful to share? Is it a secret?

<font color="blue"> Before I get into different types of breaks, I want to say something about speed because I believe that it is an important factor that is overlooked by many players. If you have the opportunity, talk to a pro or near pro class bowler. They will tell you that every lane has a line and a speed. Even if you have a perfect line rolling the ball too fast or too slow will not deliver a strike. Pool tables are the same way. On your 9 ball breaks if you are jarring the wing balls in the corner pockets every time, you are in the right spot. You are just using the wrong speed. If you are hitting high or low on the rails then you need to adjust the line.

Before you can do any of this you must know what your break speed is. The break is a precision shot and the most important shot in the game. You have control of the table and your main concern, no matter what else happens, is keeping it. Even if you know you are not going to make a ball on the break you can still set the terms of the game by controlling the break. One example of this, in nine ball, is the two rail cut break. You cut across the nose of the one ball with inside english and the cueball goes to the long rail, then the foot rail and dies in the rack area getting tangled up hopefully. The one ball goes to the head of the table. The best your opponent has to shoot back at you is a safety, more often it is only a push.

There is no replacement for quality of contact. Cue tip to cue ball and cue ball to rack ball. Setup a straight in shot with the cue ball in the kitchen and the object ball down table on the diamond line even with the spot. Shoot a straight in stun through shot hard as you can and still make the ball. The cue ball must stay on the shot line, not drift to the side. The maximum speed you can make that shot IS your maximum break speed. Anything else and you are just getting exercise or trying to get lucky. You are not executing a shot.

The reason I say use a stun through shot is because you are sending a 6 ounce ball into a 54 or 90 ounce rack. If the cue ball is neutral when it hits them dead on, it is going to bounce off. The cue ball needs a forward bias to neutralize the bounce effect and die somewhere in the middle of the table.

Choosing a side. Ceebee and Joe Tucker both have detailed writings on this subject and I would highly recommend them and I will not try to reproduce them here. Basically no rack is perfect. It is going to have a strong side and a weak side. A solid side and a loose side if you prefer. Look at the gaps between the balls in the rack. Look for an "L" shaped path starting with the head ball through the second ball, through the 9 ball, or 8 ball in your case, and the forth ball back on the side of the rack. If all four balls are frozen on down that path on one side of the rack and not the other, that's the strong side. Break from that side.

There are additional factors that come into play in a 9 ball rack. One is the position of the 2 ball in the rack. All other things being equal, you break from the side of the rack that the 2 ball is on. If the 2 ball is in the wing ball position it is a neutral rack. It doesn't matter which side you are on.

Try a few 9 ball breaks( from the side). Watch the track of the one ball. If the one ball hits the side rail on the short( rack ) side of the side pocket, the one ball is going to come toward the corner pocket you are standing in front of. If it hits on the long side of the side pocket it is going to head for the center diamond on the head rail. I hate it when that happens. If you are parking the cue ball in the middle of the table, (which I do), you will never have a shot on the one. If that is happening you are hitting the rack too straight on. Move more to the side away from the center of the table. Likewise if the 1 ball is hitting too short of the side pocket move more towards the center of the table. It's like playing a one rail bank with the 1 ball to the corner pocket. With this break you are controlling the cue ball and the 1 ball and giving yourself two legitimate chances to make the one ball. If the 2 ball is the ball behind the wing ball and you break from that side with this shot, the one ball and the two ball will almost always (I would guess 85 to 90% of the time) will wind up on the same side of the table.

There are stun breaks, cut breaks, soft breaks, et al but I have rattled on enough for now. They are all just one more tool in your trick bag. The best tool you have is your awareness. Watch the table. Watch your opponent break. Watch the path of the balls. The table is trying to tell you what to do. It takes time but you can become a better listener.

Or you can just swing away like a GOrilla and throw yourself on the mercy of the Pool Gods. (They have none. They hate me and I hate them right back!)

Joe Tucker now has an excellent video with his racking secrets book in which he demonstrates some of these principals. I also went to Grady Matthews and ask him to show me all of the breaks that the pros are using. He went on for hours about it. I think I might have taped it. I'll go see if I have it. I asked the same thing of Buddy Hall. His only response was "I am the worst breaker in the world. I can't show you anything about that."

PS. The only reason I ever go over to the left side is because the two ball is there.</font color>


<hr /></blockquote>

I slept in my car last night.

Deeman3
07-20-2007, 10:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr><hr /></blockquote>

I slept in my car last night. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> But we know you did not sleep alone...... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color>

1Time
07-20-2007, 04:01 PM
Okay, since it's more interesting to address breaking in general instead of the thread's topic...

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>
Before I get into different types of breaks, I want to say something about speed because I believe that it is an important factor that is overlooked by many players. If you have the opportunity, talk to a pro or near pro class bowler. They will tell you that every lane has a line and a speed. Even if you have a perfect line rolling the ball too fast or too slow will not deliver a strike. Pool tables are the same way. On your 9 ball breaks if you are jarring the wing balls in the corner pockets every time, you are in the right spot. You are just using the wrong speed. If you are hitting high or low on the rails then you need to adjust the line. <hr /></blockquote>

I agree; speed is important and overlooked by many. However, the primary reason balls jar in the pockets at the foot of the table on a 9-ball break is the wing balls are not rolling well enough toward the center of the pockets. Faster rolling balls go in pockets too. The faster the wing balls attack the long rails, the tighter the angle will be back towards the corner pockets. The slower these balls attack the long rails, the wider or more open this angle will be. One reason I adjust the speed on a 9-ball break is to improve the pocketing of these balls at the foot of the table.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>
Before you can do any of this you must know what your break speed is. The break is a precision shot and the most important shot in the game. You have control of the table and your main concern, no matter what else happens, is keeping it. Even if you know you are not going to make a ball on the break you can still set the terms of the game by controlling the break. One example of this, in nine ball, is the two rail cut break. You cut across the nose of the one ball with inside english and the cueball goes to the long rail, then the foot rail and dies in the rack area getting tangled up hopefully. The one ball goes to the head of the table. The best your opponent has to shoot back at you is a safety, more often it is only a push. <hr /></blockquote>

I've not seen this 9-ball break before, but it seems like a good one. Makes me wonder why every 9-ball player I've seen in the past 25+ years uses a more offense oriented break.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>
There is no replacement for quality of contact. Cue tip to cue ball and cue ball to rack ball. Setup a straight in shot with the cue ball in the kitchen and the object ball down table on the diamond line even with the spot. Shoot a straight in stun through shot hard as you can and still make the ball. The cue ball must stay on the shot line, not drift to the side. The maximum speed you can make that shot IS your maximum break speed. Anything else and you are just getting exercise or trying to get lucky. You are not executing a shot.

The reason I say use a stun through shot is because you are sending a 6 ounce ball into a 54 or 90 ounce rack. If the cue ball is neutral when it hits them dead on, it is going to bounce off. The cue ball needs a forward bias to neutralize the bounce effect and die somewhere in the middle of the table. <hr /></blockquote>

I agree and now my $0.02. Hitting off center on the CB and/or using anything but a level stroke reduces the force that otherwise can be transmitted to the rack. I find this particuarly useful to keep in mind when breaking 8-ball on bar boxes since I seem to get the best results with my gorilla style of break. I apply much more finess with my break for other pool games.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>
Choosing a side. Ceebee and Joe Tucker both have detailed writings on this subject and I would highly recommend them and I will not try to reproduce them here. Basically no rack is perfect. It is going to have a strong side and a weak side. A solid side and a loose side if you prefer. Look at the gaps between the balls in the rack. Look for an "L" shaped path starting with the head ball through the second ball, through the 9 ball, or 8 ball in your case, and the forth ball back on the side of the rack. If all four balls are frozen on down that path on one side of the rack and not the other, that's the strong side. Break from that side. <hr /></blockquote>

I used to vary CB location based on the quality and peculiarities of the rack, but that was back when I primarily played on lesser quality tables with lesser quality people from whom I was winning their money. Today I prefer more carefully choosing my opponents and the quality of the table and then politely insisting on a re-rack if necessary. Asking for a qualilty re-rack, even on a less than quality table, is part of the sport. It makes more sense to me to try getting the best rack you can before moving the CB around in an effort to compensate. On a quality table it's really not that hard to get all the balls touching.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>
There are additional factors that come into play in a 9 ball rack. One is the position of the 2 ball in the rack. All other things being equal, you break from the side of the rack that the 2 ball is on. If the 2 ball is in the wing ball position it is a neutral rack. It doesn't matter which side you are on. <hr /></blockquote>

Good to know info. This is why I rack with the 2 and 3 balls at the wings of a 9-ball rack.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>
Try a few 9 ball breaks( from the side). Watch the track of the one ball. If the one ball hits the side rail on the short( rack ) side of the side pocket, the one ball is going to come toward the corner pocket you are standing in front of. If it hits on the long side of the side pocket it is going to head for the center diamond on the head rail. I hate it when that happens. If you are parking the cue ball in the middle of the table, (which I do), you will never have a shot on the one. If that is happening you are hitting the rack too straight on. Move more to the side away from the center of the table. Likewise if the 1 ball is hitting too short of the side pocket move more towards the center of the table. It's like playing a one rail bank with the 1 ball to the corner pocket. With this break you are controlling the cue ball and the 1 ball and giving yourself two legitimate chances to make the one ball. If the 2 ball is the ball behind the wing ball and you break from that side with this shot, the one ball and the two ball will almost always (I would guess 85 to 90% of the time) will wind up on the same side of the table. <hr /></blockquote>

When breaking 9-ball, I prefer adjusting factors other than CB placement to better direct the 1 ball (and CB for that matter). Setting up the CB on a preferred line is fundamental to a 9-ball break. By a preferred line I mean the ones diagrammed and explained in books, or simply one you prefer. I don't doubt what Chopstick described about moving the CB is true. It just seems to me that moving the CB around in an effort to more frequently pocket the 1 ball would be done at the expense of the other benefits "the line" potentially offers, like CB control, pocketing other balls, and the spread of the rack.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>
There are stun breaks, cut breaks, soft breaks, et al but I have rattled on enough for now. They are all just one more tool in your trick bag. The best tool you have is your awareness. Watch the table. Watch your opponent break. Watch the path of the balls. The table is trying to tell you what to do. It takes time but you can become a better listener.

Or you can just swing away like a GOrilla and throw yourself on the mercy of the Pool Gods. (They have none. They hate me and I hate them right back!)

Joe Tucker now has an excellent video with his racking secrets book in which he demonstrates some of these principals. I also went to Grady Matthews and ask him to show me all of the breaks that the pros are using. He went on for hours about it. I think I might have taped it. I'll go see if I have it. I asked the same thing of Buddy Hall. His only response was "I am the worst breaker in the world. I can't show you anything about that."

PS. The only reason I ever go over to the left side is because the two ball is there.
<hr /></blockquote>

Good info here as well. Thanks

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>
I slept in my car last night. <hr /></blockquote>

Been there, done that. And I'm pretty sure the experience improved my game, and hers.

Chopstick
07-20-2007, 05:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> I would change after 2.73 unsuccessful break attempts... /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman3,

<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">Actually, it is just Deeman. He keeps forgetting his password and just creates another ID. </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

ceebee
07-20-2007, 08:05 PM
The Break Shot is all about making a ball or not making a ball, depending on your wants &amp; needs. It's also about position on a particular object ball, if you make a ball on the break.

The Break Shot for some is just the way the game starts. For top competitors, it's the first shot of the game &amp; the shot that gets you to the second shot. It's the shot that allows you to link Racks together.

Give a good 7 Speed a great Break Shot &amp; in a month, he becomes an 8 Speed. The Break Shot is very very important, especially in the Higher Skill Ranks.

There are two ways to learn the Break Shot. You can learn through osmosis (hoping the ability will rub off on you) or you can study the Break Shot &amp; build your knowledge. Once you have learned about the Break Shot, your success will depend on your application &amp; your skills.

It is an understood axiom (truth). When two equally skilled competitors are going head-to-head, the difference in the match will be decided by the Break Shot.

Good Luck...

1Time
07-20-2007, 08:40 PM
ceebee,

I thought your post read like an infomercial. Everything seemed right on except your first paragraph. It disregards a break's spread of the balls (offense - like in 9-ball) or lack of spread of the balls (defense - like in straight pool). /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ceebee:</font><hr> The Break Shot is all about making a ball or not making a ball, depending on your wants &amp; needs. It's also about position on a particular object ball, if you make a ball on the break. <hr /></blockquote>

Bob_Jewett
07-21-2007, 09:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> ... could you please elucidate us on what these other important variables are that have a greater affect than speed? <hr /></blockquote>
At one World 9-Ball Championship, I watched the break shots in 8 to 10 matches. I wrote down where all the balls were placed in the rack and which were made. (I suppose you could also do this from tapes.) In those matches, the players had found a technique that allowed them to make at least one ball 95% of the time. The technique is pretty simple. I also saw this technique used at a Mosconi Cup.

Snapshot9
07-21-2007, 10:52 AM
Bob ... I thought the Mosconi Cup table was breaking ridiculously easy with very repeatable steps for each player breaking. We all know in 'real life' that it is not like that. Does anyone know what the pockets were for that? They didn't look too small at all.

Dagwood
07-23-2007, 08:51 AM
I try not to move the cueball around too much, but vary the speed with which I break. If that doesn't work, then I'll move my cue, but just a little bit over to the side rail. I usually break from the headstring, right side, one diamond in. The reason I break from there is there are plenty of tournaments which requrie you to break from the box. So I've adjusted my primary breaking area to that. I've always gotten good action out of the rack from there, with good cueball control. When I go to the side rail, I tend to use a cut break more and concentrate on trying to make the one in the side. As far as how many times it takes me being unsuccessfull before I move the cue...probably about 4-5 breaks...again, trying different speeds.

Dags

Deeman3
07-23-2007, 09:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> I would change after 2.73 unsuccessful break attempts... /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman3,

<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">Actually, it is just Deeman. He keeps forgetting his password and just creates another ID. </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">That or I really do believe in reincarnation. I wonder how many posts I'd have now if I'd remembered that password? Too many..... </font color>

Bob_Jewett
07-24-2007, 11:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Snapshot9:</font><hr> Bob ... I thought the Mosconi Cup table was breaking ridiculously easy with very repeatable steps for each player breaking. We all know in 'real life' that it is not like that. Does anyone know what the pockets were for that? They didn't look too small at all. <hr /></blockquote>
The pockets had more or less nothing to do with the ease of making a ball on the break. At the last Mosconi Cup at the MGM, the table was trained (just as it is for the Sardo)and a regular rack was used. By agreement of the team captains, the rack was moved half a ball up the table. The wing ball still went nearly every time because the rack was tight. That's the secret: a tight rack.

Fran Crimi
07-24-2007, 02:40 PM
As long as I'm confident in the way I'm hitting the ball, I'd move the cb right away if I don't make a ball on the break. If I feel like I didn't hit the ball well, then I will most likely stay in the same spot until I get what I feel is a good, solid break.

If you're breaking inconsistently (meaning unwanted sidespin, bad timing, etc), it doesn't matter how many times you move the cb because you'll get a different result every time you break.

Fran

Dagwood
07-24-2007, 02:57 PM
tap tap tap!

as always, nicely put Fran. BTW, did you see that the Joss Tour is going to be paying a visit to the Gold Crown in New London this year come November? I know you were telling stories about my former pool hall in a thread a ways back......

Dags

Fran Crimi
07-24-2007, 04:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Dagwood:</font><hr> tap tap tap!

as always, nicely put Fran. BTW, did you see that the Joss Tour is going to be paying a visit to the Gold Crown in New London this year come November? I know you were telling stories about my former pool hall in a thread a ways back......

Dags <hr /></blockquote>


Hi Dags,

Yes, I remember it well...back in the days of Sy and Dolly Eckstadt. I haven't been there for a couple of decades. Everybody loved Sy and Dolly. I know they eventually retired and sold the room. I used to get occasional letters from Dolly. They were our surrogate parents and we all were their kids.

I remember Zuglan playing there in his prime. He was practically unbeatable in 14.1 back then. I don't know if players today have any idea just how good he played the game. Glad to see the Joss tour stopping there. It's like going home again.

Fran