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View Full Version : Why do pros shoot better with layered tips?



1Time
07-25-2007, 12:32 AM
What's your take on why most pros shoot better pool with a layered tip than a regular one? In other words in terms of play-ability, what is it about the design of a layered tip that makes it superior to a regular one?

sack316
07-25-2007, 12:40 AM
I'm sure somebody has a good scientific answer for this, unfortunately it's not me. I'm by no means anywhere near a pro level, but a few years ago I switched to a layered tip, and now I don't feel as comfortable with anything else. Whatever the reason is, I shoot a ton better with it and just have a good bit better feel for controlling what the cue ball will do.

Sack

randyg
07-25-2007, 06:14 AM
How can we tell if "most pro's shoot with a layered tip"????

I like a layered tip but I wasn't aware that the pro's did...randyg

Rich R.
07-25-2007, 06:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> How can we tell if "most pro's shoot with a layered tip"????

I like a layered tip but I wasn't aware that the pro's did...randyg <hr /></blockquote>Randy, I'm not sure "most pro's" shoot with layered tips. I happen to know some pros who prefer one piece tips, over the layered tips. I have no proof, but I believe that overall, layered tips have just become more popular with both pro and non-pro players, probably because they seem to be more consistent. JMHO.

Deeman3
07-25-2007, 07:10 AM
Pro's like anyone else, want what is perceived as the latest and best thing on the market. The layered tips are supposed to be more consistent (not sure if that's realy true) and hold chalk a little better (probably true) and, like anyone, they want the best. As it is the only part of the cue that makes much difference in any real sense, it would be obvious that they would use what they consider the best. I now use a layered tip but I don't beleive anyone's world would fall apart if they all went away today and we only had the old opnes to use. Of course, I'm the silly guy who thinks you can still play a good game with a a, yuck, normal deflection shaft. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

DeadCrab
07-25-2007, 07:19 AM
If you want to read the manufacturer's claims, try this:

http://www.talismanbilliards.com/Cuetips.asp

I'm getting ready to try a layered tip because I want something softer and more stable. My current LePro started out feeling soft, and after 6 months of moderate use feels much harder and has developed a slight lip (early mushroom?). When you consider the overall cost of playing pool, $25 for a good tip seems like a reasonable investment.

Dagwood
07-25-2007, 07:26 AM
I'm right there with you Dee on the normal deflection shaft...if it ain't broke don't fix it...

Jager85
07-25-2007, 12:27 PM
In the past year I have tried using different tips to find the right one for me. Usually I used to shoot with a Triangle, but right away switched to a Tiger Soft. The tip was excellent. I shot with it for a few months, but after shaping it quite a few times in those few months it seemed to get harder. This would make sense as if the tip were thinner it would have a harder hit to it. I also tried the Sniper and had similar results. It is a little bit harder than the sft tip and I had more of a problem miscuing on power draw strokes occasionally. Since then I have stuck with 1 tip and have had no issues. People told me originally I was wasting my time trying it, but it has worked the best for me.

My current tip is a mere $.33. I shoot with an Elk Master, and it shot better than the $10 Tiger's to me. I would eventually like to try a Moori III Soft, but as of now I am happy with the EM. Also, the EM does not mushroom as much as I was told it would. About the same as the Tiger if you ask me.

Jager

Deeman3
07-25-2007, 01:28 PM
In another post, Fran or Dags pointed out that most don't take proper care of their tips in many cases. She/he is dead on. I think the care and attention is probably more important than the brand in most cases. It is true that a softer tip will grab better, given all other conditions being equal. If you elect a harder tip, you'll need to spend more time keeping it able to accept chalk and if you select a soft like an Elkmaster, you may be spending more time grooming the sides.

You did say the Tiger tip you had; you shot with for several months. In my opinion, if you play a lot, several months is pretty good before you experience problems. Of all you can put into a cue, case, game, etc; the tip should get the most attention but probably gets the least. Even the most expensive is probably at a cost of a hundreth of a cent per shot!

I think the leading cause of miscues are:

Bad Stroke
Bad Tip (improperly groomed)
Lazy Chalking Technique
Fast Larry

You have to do all three right to be successful. The brand and hardness/softness is just personal preference. IMO

1Time
07-25-2007, 02:52 PM
I've been reading a lot lately about tips from various online sources including this one and found much of it very interesting and yet at times contradictory. I found that of those who wrote on layered vs regular, the overwhelming consensus seemed to be that most pros used layered tips. Although I am not aware of this matter actually having been established as fact, it seemed safe for me to assume that most pros preferred layered tips. And from my reading I came away with the impression that most pros preferred layered tips primarily because of their superior play-ability. I'm sure the other positive merits of layered tips factored into this preference as well. However, I can't imagine many pros choosing a tip based in large part because it is the "in" or popular tip. I mean, of all people, wouldn't a pro be more interested in choosing a tip that resulted in better play? Of course not everyone uses layered tips or considers their play with them superior to that of a regular one.

Nonetheless, my main hope in starting this thread was to see what others thought about what it was about layered tips that resulted in better play.

Thanks

Bob_Jewett
07-25-2007, 05:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> ... However, I can't imagine many pros choosing a tip based in large part because it is the "in" or popular tip. ... <hr /></blockquote>
I think a great deal of what all players do is based solely on tradition -- read "flock of sheep." Why else would anyone use Irish linen for a wrap, for example? Why a 3/4-inch ferrule? While you can come up with semi-valid reasons for both of these, I think they don't apply to most players, and many players still go for them without really considering any other options.

1Time
07-25-2007, 06:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> ... However, I can't imagine many pros choosing a tip based in large part because it is the "in" or popular tip. ... <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>
I think a great deal of what all players do is based solely on tradition -- read "flock of sheep." Why else would anyone use Irish linen for a wrap, for example? Why a 3/4-inch ferrule? While you can come up with semi-valid reasons for both of these, I think they don't apply to most players, and many players still go for them without really considering any other options. <hr /></blockquote>

The tradition / flock of sheep factor definitely plays a larger roll than it really should for most. I recently read somewhere online that the tip is the most important with each part of a cue becoming less and less important as it is found closer to the cue's butt. This makes sense to me and it seems unfortunate that most players probably choose their cues based in reverse order of what's most likely to determine the cue's play-ability.

However, with specific regard to the pros choice of tips, I still can't imagine most not having their highest priority being what works best for them. If they're in this for the money, it makes far more sense to me that they'd take care in choosing what works best for them. Of course I can easily see pros choosing what tip to try out next based on what's in, popular, causing a buzz, or simply what's been suggested or advertised.

scaramouche
07-26-2007, 04:03 AM
Perhaps it depends on local folklore

http://www.fcsnooker.co.uk/acatalog/Tips.html

Rich R.
07-26-2007, 06:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DeadCrab:</font><hr> I'm getting ready to try a layered tip because I want something softer and more stable. My current LePro started out feeling soft, and after 6 months of moderate use feels much harder and has developed a slight lip (early mushroom?). When you consider the overall cost of playing pool, $25 for a good tip seems like a reasonable investment. <hr /></blockquote>
Most tips, layered or not, will feel harder, over time and use. It is simply the result of the tip compressing. For this reason, I tend to change tips more often than most. I don't care for the tips once they compress a lot.

It is not out of line for your Le Pro, or most other tips, to feel harder, and form a slight mushroom, after six months of use.

I definitely agree with you, in that considering the cost of pool, tip replacement is quite reasonable. I can't understand why people will pay $8+ per hour to play pool, buy a cue for $1000+ and then skimp on a tip.

Fran Crimi
07-26-2007, 07:36 AM
Two reasons:

One: mushrooming. Layered tips don't seem to mushroom --- at least, I haven't noticed it. One-piece leather tips always mushroom. It's just a matter of time. A mushroomed tip affects your aim as well as your application of spin. You may as well be playing with a thicker shaft (well not quite, but close).

It's a real pain trimming a mushroomed tip. I know that I never used to get it right. I'd wind up with a scraped ferrule from trying to razor-blade off the edges of the tip, or an uneven tip. It was a mess and I hated it. Even hard tips used to mushroom, too, but it was a disaster with medium tips.

I was really happy when I didn't have to worry about that anymore when the layered tips came out.

Two: I find that the layered tips don't harden as quickly over time as the one-piece leather tips do. They still wear down, but as they're wearing, they seem to hold their sponginess longer.

Fran

Snapshot9
07-26-2007, 10:04 AM
Fran pointed out good aspects, and the 1 thing I would add is that layered tips seem to be more consistent throughout the whole array of shots you shoot, and being more consistent equals playing better.

Bob_Jewett
07-26-2007, 10:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> What's your take on why most pros shoot better pool with a layered tip than a regular one? ... <hr /></blockquote>
I discussed this once with Nick Varner, and he tried a layered tip but gave up on it because he was miscuing more often than with his regular tip. I failed to ask him what he usually used. That was maybe 8 years ago, and he might have changed by now.

dr_dave
07-26-2007, 10:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>... A mushroomed tip affects your aim as well as your application of spin. You may as well be playing with a thicker shaft (well not quite, but close). ...<hr /></blockquote>Fran,

I am hoping you can explain this a little more. In what ways do you think tip mushrooming can "affect your aim?" Are you implying that you aim differently with a larger tip? Also, how do you think the mushrooming affects "application of spin?" I can see how if you are using "tips of English" to gage the amount of tip offset, the larger tip might throw things off a little. Is that what you mean?

Thanks,
Dave

Dagwood
07-26-2007, 03:21 PM
I'm going to take a stab at this one. I think what Fran was refering to was the increase in tip diameter, combined with the uneveness of the "mushroom" effect. I know that when I aim I use the center of cue stick as a reference point, not the edges. If the tip is larger due to a mushroom, you won't be getting out as far on the cue ball as you think you are aiming. And as far as uneveness, it could very well cause you to miss-cue. But I'm just speculating here...not solid facts.......

Dags

MrLucky
07-27-2007, 04:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jager85:</font><hr> In the past year I have tried using different tips to find the right one for me. Usually I used to shoot with a Triangle, but right away switched to a Tiger Soft. The tip was excellent. I shot with it for a few months, but after shaping it quite a few times in those few months it seemed to get harder. This would make sense as if the tip were thinner it would have a harder hit to it. I also tried the Sniper and had similar results. It is a little bit harder than the sft tip and I had more of a problem miscuing on power draw strokes occasionally. Since then I have stuck with 1 tip and have had no issues. People told me originally I was wasting my time trying it, but it has worked the best for me.

My current tip is a mere $.33. I shoot with an Elk Master, and it shot better than the $10 Tiger's to me. I would eventually like to try a Moori III Soft, but as of now I am happy with the EM. Also, the EM does not mushroom as much as I was told it would. About the same as the Tiger if you ask me.

Jager <hr /></blockquote>

You should not need to continually reshape Layered tips ! this is one of the benefits of using them you may need to touch it up once right after placement and then you leave it alone I have two cues with Mooris that were installed last year I play 2-3 times a week 4-5 hours each and still have the tips on with no problems!

dave666
07-27-2007, 01:01 PM
i believe how your stroke strikes the cue ball determines what kind of tip you will like.it's all in personal preferance. if you are someone who uses natural roles you would most likely use a standard tip, if you try to force the cue ball around the bed than you would most likely use the layered tip , they do seem to get extreme english. but that's my opinion.

tim196
08-14-2007, 08:26 PM
I'm not trying to start the discussion about layered tips up again. I just joined today and was browsing the threads. I don't know whether they (layered tips) are better or not, but if they are, one reason might be due to more exposed end grain of the leather. If you laminate several layers and then trim them to round, you would be exposing end grain of each piece of leather to the contact surface. This could possibly give a different feel than that of a single piece of leather. Laminated wood can be stronger than a single piece; as evidenced by the use of laminated shafts.