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BRussell
07-29-2007, 02:09 PM
I was poking around the artistic pool website (http://www.artisticpoolplayers.com/) and found this shot. It's shot #4 in the bank shot section from this page (http://www.artisticpoolplayers.com/shot_program/shot_program.php).

Cuetable.com diagram (http://CueTable.com/P/?@1AApB1PNOC1UApB2UbEl1UbVY2UbFC4UdYB1kNOC4kDbC@)

The artistic pool diagrams don't give any tips on how to make the shot, but when I first tried it I used inside english to reverse the rebound angle. That worked, but, after thinking about it, it didn't really make sense why it would need the english, because it doesn't reverse angle until after the second rail. So I tried it without any english at all, and it works just the same. It doesn't seem to matter at all whether it's hit with inside or no english, though I can't make it with outside english. Either way, I've made the shot at least half the times I've tried it - I was surprised at how easy it was, and particularly surprised that it worked with no english.

So my question: Why does it work? It must have something to do with picking up english from the rail, right?

Jal
07-30-2007, 12:31 AM
Where is Jerry Orbach when you need him?

I'm surprised no one else has answered though. Maybe others are having the same problem with very slow loading pages today.

You're right. The object ball does pick up english (running) off the first cushion, which of course becomes reverse or check on the second cushion.

With outside english, the ball will come off the first cushion at a shallower angle and head farther down table, unless you adjust and aim it closer to the lip of the side pocket. Where I play, the shot can be made with inside english or no english by contacting the first cushion about an 1"-2" from the lip. It may be that with outside, that's not enough margin to make the adjustment - I don't know, I've never tried it.

Also, things vary from table to table. Of the two that I usually practice on, it didn't seem to want to work on one of them.

I think this shot demonstrates, along with the Vernon Elliot impossible bank, that cushion "throwback" does take place. It can't be explained, I believe, by friction alone.

Jim

Bob_Jewett
07-30-2007, 02:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> ... The artistic pool diagrams don't give any tips on how to make the shot, but when I first tried it I used inside english to reverse the rebound angle. ... So my question: Why does it work? It must have something to do with picking up english from the rail, right? <hr /></blockquote>
On the first cushion, the angle shortens because you have a little side spin on the object ball. Amazingly, there are still people who believe you can't get any useful side spin on an object ball. Anyway, that makes the ball come fairly straight off the cushion. Because the ball has rubbed on the cushion, it has picked up a little of the opposite spin, or left has turned to right in your diagram. This takes on the second rail. I'm not sure whether the process continues on the second/third cushions, but it seems to, a little. You would have to measure each angle carefully to see if there was spin on the ball.

You can make the cue ball take the same path, and this is useful at carom billiards. You take the cue ball by itself up the table a little and then it magically comes back to hit the two other balls, which in this case would be by the side pocket. Sometimes this is the best shot at 3-cushion. The hard part is to remember to use only a little spin on the cue ball. If you load it up, the english does not reverse on the first rail, and the cue ball either comes back too much or runs down the table after the second rail.

Deeman3
07-30-2007, 05:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> Amazingly, there are still people who believe you can't get any useful side spin on an object ball. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">Bob,

Not any one pocket players! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color>

Chopstick
07-30-2007, 09:35 AM
What you are seeing is called collision induced english. You are cutting the object ball. The collision itself puts reverse english on the object ball. The reason you can't make it using outside english is because it neutralizes the reverse english induced by the collision. A simple way to see this is to use a measles cue ball and shoot with no english. When collision induced english occurs the cue ball will always leave the collision with the opposite english that the object ball has. Shoot this shot or any similar cut bank. You will see that the cue ball always leaves the collision with outside english.

KellyStick
07-30-2007, 11:25 AM
I suspect you also have to shoot fairly hard to make this shot and that also will cut the first rebound angle, possibly the second a bit as well. I would also agree that the CB contact with the OB puts a bit of reverse english on the OB. If you don't beleive that see what kind throw you get based on CB contact to two frozen balls that are pointed directly at a pocket. Even though they may be set up pointed directly at a spot you can thro the third ball (the one froze to the OB) by adjusting CB contact side to the OB.

I am no expert here but I have not seen this shot before in a diagram but have seen the results on the table. And not always to my benefit. Thanks for posting this. I am going to go understand this shot better and as a result I think you will have opened my mind to something my eyes have seen but never quite accepted or firgure out. I do think the hard hit required is part of this otherwise it would seem you might get a different result on the last rebound?

Bob_Jewett
07-30-2007, 12:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> I was poking around the artistic pool website (http://www.artisticpoolplayers.com/) and found this shot. It's shot #4 in the bank shot section from this page (http://www.artisticpoolplayers.com/shot_program/shot_program.php). ... <hr /></blockquote>
There is a good discussion of this shot in Byrne's "Advanced Technique in Pool and Billiards," including how to set this up as a combination shot.

cushioncrawler
07-30-2007, 05:17 PM
This sort of "straightening up" of the ball used to be the norm on a 12' table before WW2 -- in them dayz they had a different cushion rubber profile, different to the modern L shape. But, on one of our club tables we had the same problem, even tho we had L rubbers. This table woz an English table (a Burroughs &amp; Watts actually) and had steel-backed cushions, which some members thort woz the reezon. But, the tableDoc from Alcocks simply took the cloth off and stuck some white PVC tape along the noze of the rubbers, and this fixed the problem. I thort that he would at least needta lower the cushion heights, but nope. So, my recommendation iz to stick some tape along the noze. madMac.