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nAz
07-29-2007, 05:59 PM
hilarious and shocking tour of the College Republican National Convention, where the gop's next generation cheer on the war in Iraq, then make sorry excuses for why they can't serve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFGit_tZDqs

what a bunch of hypocrites, I know a lot of older adults who are just the same.
scary how how these "young adults" may be running the country one day, sort of reminds me of all the current chicken hawks in the current administration who wanted this war so bad but never served!

DeadCrab
07-30-2007, 09:35 AM
Reinstate the draft, and see how quickly our foreign policy changes.

DeadCrab, 1973 draft lottery #85

Vapros
07-30-2007, 10:22 AM
Never mind your draft number - but did you serve? For that matter, who among our posters has actually served, and who has not? Let's see some replies to this question. Responders will be noted, as well as non-responders.

I have served.

Deeman3
07-30-2007, 10:40 AM
I have served. My draft number was 242 but it was too late and too high.

However, I think your question is unfair in the context it appears. Weather or not someone had the opportunity, priveledge or was forced to serve our country has very little to do with the value of their opinion, left or right.

It is not new that old men send young men to die for a cause, good or bad. Rich kids serve less than poor kids and some people will be eating dogfood on social security. Trying to use service or not having served is somewhat selfrightous and smacks of the very chest beating you might say got us into every war ever fought.

Would Gayle have less right to comment on war if she had not served? Would someone who had lost an eye be a little more credible than someone who lost a leg and arm?

So you can note your responders and non-responders and I don't care how it tallys up, it does not make us any smarter or better than any other American. Some chose to go, some were forced and some avoided it by ill means while still others were precluded through no fault of their own (Health, age, etc.).

Vapros
07-30-2007, 11:13 AM
Deeman, there's some merit to some of your points, but I am disappointed that you have attached all those implications to my simple question. I agree that everybody is entitled to comment on anything, but I reserve the right to make my own evaluation of the value of any and all opinions. I'm sure we all do that.

You may have offended a lot of Americans by your comment on 'chest beating'. I thought that was out of line. And do I feel self-righteous for having served? Maybe a little.

Whatever else might ensue, I imagine some posters will see your reply as a sort of Fifth Amendment and decline to respond, based on the 'Deeman Post'. That's okay, they have a right to do that, also. Be well.

wolfdancer
07-30-2007, 11:14 AM
Dee, good post !!!
My definition of the "chicken hawk" is one who ardently supports this war, as long as it doesn't affect him, or his family personally.
I'd place GWB #1 on that list....of course if the twins volunteer to serve, I could change my mind...
I also believe that we need a draft to stop this revolving door situation, re: our troops that are caught up in this "I wanna be your War President" (while my friends steal billions) misadventure

Deeman3
07-30-2007, 12:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vapros:</font><hr> Deeman, there's some merit to some of your points, but I am disappointed that you have attached all those implications to my simple question. <font color="blue"> What made it not a simple question was the "I'm gonna be keeping track" sound the added words seemed to insinuate. If you didn't mean that, then i apoligise for misreading the post. </font color> I agree that everybody is entitled to comment on anything, but I reserve the right to make my own evaluation of the value of any and all opinions. I'm sure we all do that. <font color="blue"> Yes </font color>

You may have offended a lot of Americans by your comment on 'chest beating'. I thought that was out of line. <font color="blue">I don't agree. If you don't think saber rattling and posturing have led both Democrats and Republicans and Whigs into battles we could have, otherwise avoided, you have not noticed history. </font color> And do I feel self-righteous for having served? Maybe a little. <font color="blue"> In fact, you have that right. We should not make judgements about others service or lack thereof. There are many valid reasons for not serving. Most on here appreciate anyone who served this country but are no less because they couldn't, in most cases. </font color>

Whatever else might ensue, I imagine some posters will see your reply as a sort of Fifth Amendment and decline to respond, based on the 'Deeman Post'. That's okay, they have a right to do that, also. Be well. <font color="blue"> I just don't think we can make value or character judgements based on someone's response or lack of response. I have been wrong before. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Vapros
07-30-2007, 01:11 PM
Okay, point taken. I won't keep score. I shouldn't really expect many of the non-servers to reply, anyway.

On the other hand, I take issue with your contention that most who did not serve could not. I'm pretty sure that most of us have had the opportunity to serve, if we wanted to or were called. It need not have been in wartime.

And your comments about chest-beating and saber-rattling - does that include the two World Wars we fought? I believe you said all, didn't you?

wolfdancer
07-30-2007, 01:36 PM
Dee, you're an intelligent man...a mechanical engineering degree from Luverne Community College, and post grad work at Liberty University....( I've been told)so maybe you can help me out in decoding that post.
If I choose not to reply...I'm exercising my fifth amendment rights ??...Isn't there a bit of implied guilt taking that route?
And I'm also entitled to my own opinion, subject to Vapros's evaluation, of course...
AND, I'm not sure from his sabre rattlin about serving...but I take it to mean he enlisted, during wartime?
And this then allows one to make a definitive comment as to whether this war is a noble cause, or not?
This is why I never became a Republican....I just never had that kind of unquestioning faith in the party leaders. God knows, it's tough enough going along with the Democratic agenda...
I'm thinking it would be in the Country's best interest to cancel the next election, instead have them draw straws...whoever gets the short straw...inherits this mess that Bush has created....
For the record...the choices were... the military, or juvenile detention...and the food was better in the military...unfortunately, the Republicans couldn't start a war in them days, so it was just peacetime service.

eg8r
07-30-2007, 02:15 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Never mind your draft number - but did you serve? <hr /></blockquote> I did not serve and was told by all that Clinton supporters that it was OK becauses serving in the military did not matter.

Now that you know I did not serve, who the heck cares. What does it matter? And if you do think it matters, then tell me why you can comment on the President and his administration if you have never been part of his administration.

eg8r

wolfdancer
07-30-2007, 02:51 PM
Ed, your reply didn't exactly fit the meaning of
"Respondez s'il Vous Plait" Now we don't know whether to note you as a responder, or a non. I hate to see dissension amongst the troops over there on the right. If Bill said you didn't have to serve, that should make it ok but you could have pleaded the fifth in this new HUAC poll
I think at that time...they was looking for a few Good Men, anyway.....lol

dg-in-centralpa
07-30-2007, 03:49 PM
I did not serve. Although I did audition for the marine band, and just missed, by the time I graduated in 1977, Viet Nam was over and so was the draft. Had I passed my audition, I would have served. Sometimes I wish I had gone into the service for the experience.

DG

Qtec
07-30-2007, 05:36 PM
Were you drafted or did you join of your own free will?



Q

wolfdancer
07-30-2007, 06:27 PM
Doug, I believe the thread is about soldiers behind the butt end of a Carbine, and not just blowing Taps, or whistling Dixie....It's hard to intimidate the enemy with just a tuba and drums..
Even as early as 1776 the British found out that percussion instruments against percussion caps, was no contest.
The last time that I heard of a band going up against uniformed opposition was the Stanford Marching Band in 1982 Vs the Cal football team....the band was overrun ....
It's not too late though to serve....this Republican inspired war is truly Democratic in regards to age....Many of the reservists being called up for active duty, are in their 50's.

Deeman3
07-30-2007, 06:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vapros:</font><hr>

And your comments about chest-beating and saber-rattling - does that include the two World Wars we fought? I believe you said all, didn't you? <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> Including those two wars. I don't care how much we legitimize WWI &amp; WWII, they were horrible conflicts that were needed, but a sad waste, hughly unpopular as they wore on and caused one of the world's great leaders not to be re-elected (Churchill) and one that would not have been (Truman). I really don't know of any war that was "nice" and certainly none that were popular among the public. Now, the media has changed in the past decades and news and newsmen are not the same as they were. Good? Bad? I don't know! Over 50,000 Americans died in Viet Nam. Do I blame Kennedy, Johnson? Did Nixon not get us out fast enough? Who can we blame for the next one? Again, I don't know! I do know this war was not prosecuted like I would have liked but they never ask us. I am guilty of having some faith in leadership when I should not, perhaps longer than I should. I don't like war, never did. You can dress it up with movies and march in the streets against them. I do know we can't wait until it is popular to press a war, then back off when the polls go south. War is ugly but I can't seem to get any reasonable alternatives other than do nothing or negoiate with those that would kill you while sitting at the table.

God does not speak to me and say, "Kill strangers you don't know!" I do believe in God and forgiveness and tolerance. I also believe in dealing with people who will deal honestly. I do not trust the Muslims that want to eradicate Israel and us as well. When the Southern Baptists attack peaceful Muslims in the streets or fly planes into their buildings, I will help defend the Muslims. YOu can put me down for that one.

Most could serve? Are you now asking that people who bought those ribbons for the back of their SUV's are serving? It's just a silly premise to me. Surveys to make people feel less valued and that accomplishes nothing. </font color>

eg8r
07-30-2007, 07:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Ed, your reply didn't exactly fit the meaning of
"Respondez s'il Vous Plait" <hr /></blockquote> I really don't care.

[ QUOTE ]
If Bill said you didn't have to serve <hr /></blockquote> Did Bill ever say that? I don't remember it but you are welcome to your own memories. He probably said, please don't let my draft dodging affect my chances at being President.

I see your "lol" at the bottom, were you tickling yourself because you surely have not been funny yet. Thanks for yet another of your useless posts.

eg8r

Deeman3
07-30-2007, 07:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Dee, you're an intelligent man...a mechanical engineering degree from Luverne Community College, and post grad work at Liberty University....( I've been told) <font color="blue"> Bob Jones! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Not Really! </font color> so maybe you can help me out in decoding that post.
If I choose not to reply...I'm exercising my fifth amendment rights ??...Isn't there a bit of implied guilt taking that route? <font color="blue"> Exactly... </font color>
And I'm also entitled to my own opinion, subject to Vapros's evaluation, of course...
AND, I'm not sure from his sabre rattlin about serving...but I take it to mean he enlisted, during wartime? <font color="blue"> Certainly</font color>
And this then allows one to make a definitive comment as to whether this war is a noble cause, or not? <font color="blue"> He would have fought just so that very possibility existed for you, without regard to service. </font color>
This is why I never became a Republican....I just never had that kind of unquestioning faith in the party leaders. God knows, it's tough enough going along with the Democratic agenda... <font color="blue"> I am giving up on both. I am not forgetting my promise to vote for Hillary. Now that they are making idiotic hay about her showing cleavage, I may give her my general election vote as well just to offset one idiot vote.</font color>
I'm thinking it would be in the Country's best interest to cancel the next election, instead have them draw straws...whoever gets the short straw...inherits this mess that Bush has created.... <font color="blue"> I say we draft an 18 year old, he/she can't do worse than the last few presidents. </font color>
For the record...the choices were... the military, or juvenile detention...and the food was better in the military...unfortunately, the Republicans couldn't start a war in them days, so it was just peacetime service. <font color="blue"> Used to be, Democrats started 'em, Republicans finished 'em. Now, it's all a tar baby for everyone. NRSI </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Vapros
07-30-2007, 07:35 PM
I'm reluctant to get much farther into this, as it seems to be getting out of control fast, but since we apparently have gone into a discussion of wars there are a couple of things that need saying.

Wars are never nice and they always involve killing people you do not know. They are often great for industry and for the high-ranking officers. Without war, soldiers are mostly ignored, aren't they? Wars are, by nature, usually unpopular with the public for many reasons, but I daresay you were not around for WWII. It was fought by the whole country, with gusto. That is never the case with a war that did not start with a direct attack, but that's not to say wars cannot be just as necessary politically, and politically is how nations have always conducted their affairs and will continue to do so.

However, when your country is at war, you as an individual are at war, also. Citizenship does not empower you to pass up a war because you don't approve of it. If that were the case it would be impossible to raise an army. You can take whatever attitude you like about it, but it's not right to decline to serve. And if you are called and find a way not to go, someone else will have to go in your place and he may die along the way. You may never know who he was, but that doesn't absolve you.

We can hate the politicians, but we elect them and they are the ones who decide when to go to war. As a citizen, if you want some of the soup you have to help wash the dishes. That's just the way it is.

And yes, Qtec, I volunteered.

pooltchr
07-30-2007, 08:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vapros:</font><hr> Never mind your draft number - but did you serve? For that matter, who among our posters has actually served, and who has not? Let's see some replies to this question. Responders will be noted, as well as non-responders.

I have served. <hr /></blockquote>

Viet Nam era vet 1972-1975 3 years, 11 months and 4 days....but who was counting?
It wasn't pretty, it wasn't even popular, it wasn't a well run war. Sound familiar?
We served because we felt it was the right thing to do. My only regret was that we didn't finish what we started.
Lesson learned? I guess we will have to wait and see.
Steve

Drop1
07-30-2007, 10:42 PM
Not a question anyone has a right to ask. I joined. "First to Fight" Did I serve? I don't know,you figure it out. No one is the same anymore. Forty four years turned into a day.Did I serve? F you.

dg-in-centralpa
07-31-2007, 05:46 AM
My point was that while I didn't pass the audition, I still could have joined the service without being a band member.

Duane

DickLeonard
07-31-2007, 07:23 AM
DG-in-Centralpa I marched in two bands the first one on VE Day. Everyone poured out of their houses and started marching up the streets hitting anything that would make noise and it continued on VJ Day. By that time the musical instruements had improved.####

Deeman3
07-31-2007, 04:52 PM
Edited out by me....

nAz
08-01-2007, 12:17 AM
hmm maybe i served maybe i didn't...
i have to say i have tons of respect for anyone who has served. i just don't have much for those brainwash kids in the video, they are really transparent.
our military is stretched pretty thin and recruitment is very low, these gun ho young adults should sign up and help with the cause.

wolfdancer
08-01-2007, 12:43 AM
While I thought setting up a poll about serving , or not serving in wartime a little unfair....it wouldn't mean much without explanations,.... seems like the only people it would rankle would be those that fit the "chicken-hawk" label.

nAz
08-01-2007, 01:05 AM
i bet Gayle would serve if she truly believed in this war /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

wolfdancer
08-01-2007, 02:51 AM
She just might at that.
For now she is taking an extended break from dealing with a certain (expletive deleted) poster here. That's one of the big problems in posting on message boards....some small-minded, know-it-all, bigot can get on your case....same reason I gave up on the stock message boards....there's always one "expert" on every board...and if you don't agree with them 100% and pile on the platitudes to assuage their fragile egos....they turn on you....
There are more important things in life...like this great golf tip I got from the golfchannel.com.....went out and broke 40 on the front nine (38)....played four holes on the back nine a total of one over....but them other five holes...I must have tied the course record for hitting into trouble. Who else can hit behind a tree then hit the tree solidly and end up 40 yds back?
The tip was to make the base of the right thumb, where it overlaps the left thumb...the pressure point on that hand...

Deeman3
08-01-2007, 07:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> She just might at that.
For now she is taking an extended break from dealing with a certain (expletive deleted) poster here. That's one of the big problems in posting on message boards....some small-minded, know-it-all, bigot can get on your case....same reason I gave up on the stock message boards....there's always one "expert" on every board...and if you don't agree with them 100% and pile on the platitudes to assuage their fragile egos....they turn on you....
There are more important things in life...like this great golf tip I got from the golfchannel.com.....went out and broke 40 on the front nine (38)....played four holes on the back nine a total of one over....but them other five holes...I must have tied the course record for hitting into trouble. Who else can hit behind a tree then hit the tree solidly and end up 40 yds back?
The tip was to make the base of the right thumb, where it overlaps the left thumb...the pressure point on that hand... <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> I resemble those remarks!!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif</font color>

DickLeonard
08-01-2007, 07:36 AM
Wolfdancer I guess you never seen the short by Joe Kirkwood where he finds himself up close to a tree and billiards a shot off the tree onto the Green.

I was like Jack Nicklaus I had small fingers so I used the interlocking grip.####

DickLeonard
08-01-2007, 07:53 AM
Eg8r I was runing poolrooms during the Viet Nam War and I was advising everyone to go to Canada. The only people getting drafted was the powerless. That was their only other option.

Some people had better things to do. Others had a Daddy who help them get moved up to the Top of the List so they could get in the Guard.

I was 4f, the only way they would take me if I signed a release. I admired the Draft Dodgers who used their own cunning to beat it. ####

eg8r
08-01-2007, 09:12 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I was 4f, the only way they would take me if I signed a release. I admired the Draft Dodgers who used their own cunning to beat it. <hr /></blockquote> Many agree with you, it is just funny that they pick and choose when they think it is important for someone to serve or not.

eg8r

wolfdancer
08-01-2007, 09:46 AM
Dick, I do remember that Joe Jr. played Joe Palooka in the movies, and was a pro golfer himself. Just Googled Joe Sr., and he set some records in his day. I'm impressed by the round of 62 at age 63, and also read that the winner of the Australian PGA, receives the Kirkwood Cup.

DeadCrab
08-01-2007, 09:56 AM
****
Never mind your draft number - but did you serve?
**********
Since you asked, yes.
U.S. Army 1981-84 (active duty), 1984-87 (active reserves)

Personally, I think there is no greater cowardice than asking someone to go to war when you would not take the same risk yourself.

Vapros
08-01-2007, 10:05 AM
DL I suppose there was nothing wrong with going to Canada, if that's what you thought you should do. However, those guys should not have been allowed to return to the table after the food fight was over. That's lower than lawyers.

wolfdancer
08-01-2007, 10:45 AM
Dick,if we now had a draft, and some war advocates were still of draft age.....how far is it from Fla to Canada???
I think few are joining out of patriotism, or belief that Iraq had posed an imminent threat...they are being lured in by the enlistment bonus. But bonus's have a history....they go back to the Civil war...where they paid you $300, gave you a rifle, and a train ticket south...with the instructions to take out as many Rebs as possible...the birth of ethnic cleansing...them's were the good old days....

Deeman3
08-01-2007, 12:48 PM
The problem is, they are still sending them South but in droves of motorhomes but no weapons, aside from an occasional carpet bag.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
It's o.k. We have Chopstick and Ed guarding our flanks. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

We were, of course, counting on rape and pillage but all we get is Hoverounds and walkers. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Qtec
08-01-2007, 10:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vapros:</font><hr> Never mind your draft number - but did you serve? For that matter, who among our posters has actually served, and who has not? Let's see some replies to this question. Responders will be noted, as well as non-responders.

I have served. <hr /></blockquote>

You should be asking this admin the same question, after all, they were the ones who wanted this war.

WWII was different. We were being attacked and it was a fight for surrvival. You cannot put Iraq in the same catagory.
This post is about young fit Reps who talk tough but the final commitment, doing the actual fighting is 'not for them' cough cough.

If they truly belive Iraq is a worthy cause they should sign up, if they don't then they don't have to.

Q

Vapros
08-01-2007, 11:40 PM
"If they truly belive Iraq is a worthy cause they should sign up, if they don't then they don't have to."

I don't think I can respond to this. I'm not sure what you said.

Drop1
08-02-2007, 01:46 PM
We knew when we won the war with Germany,we knew when we won the war with Japan. We knew what war was,I don't think anyone knows what winning the war in Iraq means.If we kill all the people in Iraq,does that mean we won. Holding up a dead man's head,and giving a big thumbs up,does that mean we are winning the war. Laying in a valley,in Vietnam,1965 with three hundred dead and dying around you,does that mean we won that war. See,I don't understand people that don't know how to kill for what they believe,or won't die for what they believe,but want someone else to do it for them.

pooltchr
08-02-2007, 04:34 PM
Drop,
I disagree. Nobody ever wins a war. The best you can do is not lose one.
Steve

Gayle in MD
08-02-2007, 08:17 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

You'd have to be nuts to believe in this war.

First of all, you'd have to believe in Bush, and his non stop redundant BS about Iraq, terrorism, and the American People, completely devoid of logic.

As for asking others to reveal what they did yesterday, which you, Naz, didn't ask, a more appropriate question might be, what are you (a collective you) doing to serve your country today? Our troops can use some help now, regardless of how anyone feels about this insane mess in Iraq. They never signed up to be abused by an administration with S**t for brains, which has failed them in every way imaginable, that's for damn sure. If ever there was a time when Americans should be lined up to serve their country, this is the time. Not on the battlefield of absurdity, but by contributing through the USO, and demanding humane treatment and conditions for our soldiers.

Unfortunately, the best way to help them, at this point, is to write to your representatives, and demand the impeachment of Bush, Cheney, and Gonzales, the real axis of evil.

Gayle in Md.

Drop1
08-02-2007, 09:49 PM
Demand humane treatment for all soldiers,including our enemies, demand transparency,demand to know why the largest American Embassy is being built in Baghdad. Demand to know the plans to leave Iraq. Demand a date to close this farce,and bring our people home. Can anyone tell me what it means to win in Iraq. Four people destroyed America,and not one is a terrorist.

Gayle in MD
08-03-2007, 06:59 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Demand humane treatment for all soldiers,including our enemies, demand transparency,demand to know why the largest American Embassy is being built in Baghdad. Demand to know the plans to leave Iraq. Demand a date to close this farce,and bring our people home. Can anyone tell me what it means to win in Iraq. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red">Excellent points, Drop, and fortunately, Democrats are trying to cover each of them. Although they do not have a large enough majority to overturn Bush's veto power, we are seeing oversight, finally, after six years of the Republican blank check congress. Of course, it didn't come soon enough to preserve all the billions thrown away and wasted by the Republicans, both in Iraq, and in New Orleans, but still, it does my heart good to watch the investigations, and the squirming republican theives and liars, hiding behind executive priviledge, and faulty memories, are being highlighted as the no good trash they have been all along.

Each of us now has the responsibility to pressure the Congress by demanding impeachment. To do less, is to write the death certificate of many more innocents, both American, and Iraqis. The Republican spin machine is already distributing the same BS about "Progress" in Iraq. All lies, of course, but their constituency, as we well know, will lap up the bright shiney lies like a fudge sunday. Michael Ware, the great reporter who has remained in Iraq throughout, has revealed the absurdity of their dishonest claims of progress, but I have no doubt that Patraeus wil march right into the September hearings, just like Rumsfeld, Cheney, Rice and Bush have done all along, and tell the same BS lies in order to continue this carnage.

Our troops, are walking around in 115 degrees, with eighty pounds on their backs, supposedly to give the Iraqis political space to solve their centuries old disputes, but, unfortunately, the Iraqi Parliament isn't even in Baghdad. completely outrageous!!! Save our people! Impeach Bush and Cheney now, and end the slaughter of Americans, for no good purpose. Call, write, demand that our representatives do what is best for America. Get rid of the l;ying bastards, now, before they do something even worse than what they've already done!</font color>

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
08-03-2007, 02:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Drop,
I disagree. Nobody ever wins a war. The best you can do is not lose one.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Steve,

I believe the very, very best you can do, according to conventional wisdom, is to surrender long before the actual battle ensues, therefore avoiding confict, death and cost. Just hang around long enough and you'll see a demonstration of this very thing.

Let's, altogether, turn the other cheek. Gee, that felt good! I need a hug!</font color>

wolfdancer
08-03-2007, 05:42 PM
There are many that believe as you do (and most of the many live south of the Mason-Dixon line....probably something to do with Global Warming....if you raise the temp of the brain by just a couple of degrees....people been known to fly, and to have visions...unfortunately, after they land...), anyway they, you, believe that a first strike against Iraq (the hq of Al Queda)was necessary since the had:
A) already attacked us on 9/11
or
B) the mighty Iraqi Air force was preparing to carry out a stealth Atomic Bombing of the U.S....soon as they captured the aluminum rod market, and got them some yellow cake on the black market.
And since the original Gulf War was such a smashing success...(the TV ratings were almost as good as the ones for the O.J. trial)this war could be like Godfather II was, compared to the original....who knows, maybe even an Emmy for GWB!!!
The difference though, this time....the old man didn't have balls enough to go in and occupy ...but Jr, a hero in the Texas National Guard (you try flying a jet stoned out of your mind) with the urging of the Almighty (and maybe a cocaine flashback) knew, like Alexander, Napoleon, and other great Generals of the past...that under his battlefield leadership...he would bring Iraq to it's knees in just a few weeks.
So the time line has been extended a bit, and the cash ran out some time ago, and we had to put a second mortgage on the nation...
AND, now dammit, the bridges are falling down faster then the housing market is collapsing...maybe the bridges are collapsing and the market is falling??
In the face of all this, and with his ratings falling faster then the bridges, and ......
George says "stay the course, we'll attack Moscow in the winter, then push on to Waterloo..."
That felt even better....

wolfdancer
08-03-2007, 06:08 PM
nAz, perhaps we are all wrong, calling people Chicken Hawks.
Maybe a better term would be..................
Walter Mittys
http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mittydvd.jpg
From Wikipedia:
"Mitty is a meek, mild man with a vivid fantasy life: in a few dozen paragraphs he imagines himself a wartime pilot, an emergency-room surgeon, and a devil-may-care killer. The character's name has come into more general use to refer to an ineffectual dreamer, The American Heritage Dictionary defines a Walter Mitty as "an ordinary, often ineffectual person who indulges in fantastic daydreams of personal triumphs."
See, then every war photo, video, written article, feeds the imagination, and they are there...fighting heroically in battle......until it's time to get ready for the nite's league bowling match....
I know it's hard to imagine oneself as a real wartime fighter pilot, or the CinC of a real War, especially when you (A) got grounded, and (B) got your butt thrown out of the National Guard.....but with the right drugs...and the right imagination...the right breeding, (the right stuff)
I could even imagine myself being over there...securing the local bars, and testing the drinks to make sure they are not poisoned...
http://http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f0/Mittydvd.jpg

cushioncrawler
08-03-2007, 06:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> ....And since the original Gulf War was such a smashing success...(the TV ratings were almost as good as the ones for the O.J. trial) this war could be like Godfather II was, compared to the original....who knows, maybe even an Emmy for GWB!!! <hr /></blockquote>Woolfy -- The OJ trial woz ok, and of course the OJ verdikt woz korrekt. When u think of it, the Iraq War iz a cheap knockoff of the OJ formula. U replace the car chase with a War -- then u have the trial but replacing the glove with some rope. madMac.

eg8r
08-03-2007, 07:18 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You should be asking this admin the same question, after all, they were the ones who wanted this war.

WWII was different. We were being attacked and it was a fight for surrvival. You cannot put Iraq in the same catagory.
<hr /></blockquote> What is this "we" crap?

Your double "r" in survival reminds me of my laptop. I have yet to type on a Dell that did not have that problem. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

eg8r
08-03-2007, 07:22 PM
[ QUOTE ]
We knew when we won the war with Germany,we knew when we won the war with Japan. We knew what war was,I don't think anyone knows what winning the war in Iraq means. <hr /></blockquote> As crazy as this sounds, I agree with this quote.

eg8r

Gayle in MD
08-06-2007, 07:33 AM
Excellent post, Jack. Some here don't know the difference between "Cut and run" and Changing course, in an unwinnable campaign. They designate the difference according to which party is in the White House. If their party is running the show, they're all for the war. If it's the other party, it's a wag the dog situation.

I hear that the new question for determining one's level of psychological health is "Where were you when Saddam attacked America on 9/11?" Some think it's a trick question, LMAO!

I'd love to hear just one of our neoconned friends here answer this question. I've been askingt for years now.

How many more American Troops are you willing to send to their graves for Iraqis, seventy percent of whom think it is alright to kill Americans?

When you read a post that suggests that leaving Iraq, at this point, equals leaving before the battle begins, after the pointless price paid by our troops, over 6500 of them now dead in their graves, over twenty-six thousand of them having suffered grievious casualties, and the Iraqais presently on vacation, you get a good picture of the bomb happy neoconned right.

A sad bunch indeed.

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
08-06-2007, 08:04 AM
Negotiate with those who would kill you while sitting at the table?

What is better, negotiate with them, or die FOR them?

This war cannot be compared to any war that our country has ever fought.

We were all conned. That much should be clear, by now. We are all STILL being conned, daily...

Here is just a small example of how dishonest this administration is, and why we should NOT support, ANY war, which is being prosecuted with the involvment of the likes of Dick cheney, and George Bush...

From a CNN transcript....Cheney, on Larry King....

The vice president sat down for an exclusive interview with Larry King earlier. Cheney basically said he didn't care what Americans think of him. He also said Alberto Gonzales is a good man and he's standing by the U.S. attorney general. He called questions about the firings of federal prosecutors a congressional witch-hunt.

But it's his blunt opinion of the war in Iraq has that gotten a lot of people's attention.

Here's Vice President Cheney in his own words.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")

KING: OK. Let's go back. On this program, May of 2005, you said the Iraq insurgency was in the last throes.

CHENEY: Right.

KING: Why were you wrong?

CHENEY: I think my estimate at the time -- and it was wrong; it turned out to be incorrect -- was the fact that we were in the midst of holding three elections in Iraq, elected an interim government, then ratifying a constitution, then electing a permanent government; that they had had significant success. We had rounded up Saddam Hussein.

I thought there were a series of these milestones that would in fact undermine the insurgency and make it less than it was at that point. That clearly didn't happen. I think the insurgency turned out to be more robust.

And the other thing that happened, of course -- this was prior to the actions of al Qaeda in Iraq -- Abu Musab al Zarqawi with his bombing of the mosque up at Samarra in early '06, that, in effect, helped to precipitate some of the sectarian conflict that led to a lot of the Shia on Sunni battles.

KING: In that same interview, you said that the Iraqis were well on their way to being able to defend themselves. Why not? Why aren't they? Why aren't we gone?

(CROSSTALK)

CHENEY: They're not there yet because the job is not done yet, Larry.

When you think about what's been accomplished -- in, what, about four years now since we originally launched in there -- they have in fact held three national elections, and written a constitution. There are a significant number of Iraqis now serving in the armed forces, serving as part of the security forces. We have made progress on that front.

We have also obviously with the surge the President decided on last January, I think, made significant progress now into the course of the summer.

The real test is whether or not the strategy that was put in place for this year will in fact produce the desired results.

KING: Will those results be in place on that day in '09 when you leave?

CHENEY: I believe so. I think we're seeing already -- from others; don't take it from me -- look at the piece that appeared yesterday in "The New York Times," not exactly a friendly publication -- but a piece by Mr. O'Hanlon and Mr. Pollack on the situation in Iraq.

They're just back from visiting over there. They both have been strong critics of the war. Both worked in the prior administration, but now saying that they think there's a possibility, indeed, that we could be successful. So, we will know a lot more in September, when General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker come back and report sort of to the Congress and the president on the situation in Iraq and whether or not we're making progress.

Obviously, we want to get it done as quickly as possible.

KING: You don't know what to expect, though, do you? Or do you?

CHENEY: Well, I think it's going to show that we will have made significant progress. The reports I'm hearing from people whose views I respect indicate that indeed the Petraeus plan is in fact producing results.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: (AUDIO GAP) Mr. Cheney's intelligence sources.

On the other hand, we have got Michael Ware, who has been there in Baghdad and all across Iraq almost nonstop since the fighting began. Right now, he's embedded with American forces in Diyala Province, coming to us through a nightscope camera. Because of the danger there, they're not allowed to turn on any camera lights. Michael, you just heard the vice president saying he expects General Petraeus to report significant progress when he gives his assessment come September.

What do you think of the vice president's evaluation?

MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, there is progress. And that's indisputable. Sectarian violence is down in certain pockets. There are areas of great instability in this country. They're at last finding some stability.

The point, though, is, at what price? What we're seeing is -- is, to a degree, some sleight of hand. What America needs to come clean about is that it's achieving these successes by cutting deals primarily with its enemies. We have all heard the administration praise the work of the tribal sheiks in turning against al Qaeda. Well, this is just a euphemism for the Sunni insurgency. That's who has turned against al Qaeda.

And why? Because they offered America terms in 2003 to do this. And it's taken America four years of war to come round to the Sunnis' terms. And, principally, that means cutting the Iraqi government out of the loop. By achieving these successes, America is building Sunni militias.

Yes, they're targeting al Qaeda, but these are also anti- government forces opposed to the very government that America created. And another thing to remember, Anderson, yes, sectarian violence is down, but let's have a look at that. More than two million people have fled this country. Fifty thousand are still fleeing every month, according to the United Nations. So, there's less people to be killed.

And those who stay increasingly are in ethnically cleansed neighborhoods. They have been segregated.

COOPER: Well, the vice president also referred to this "New York Times" op-ed written by -- by Ken Pollack and Michael O'Hanlon, who returned from Iraq. They were applauding the military progress and the Iraqi security forces' ability to hold areas and keep insurgents out.

How much have the Iraqi troops themselves actually improved?

WARE: Well, there has been improvement in the Iraqi troops. They are standing up, to a greater degree, in certain pockets.

But, honestly, Anderson, it is a myth to believe that the Iraqi forces have been rid of their sectarian or militia ties. No matter how much any commander wants to tell you, the minute the American forces turn their backs, these guys revert to form, be that Sunni or Shia lines, Kurdish ethnic lines, or be it militia lines.

So, there is still no sense of unity. And, without America to act as the big baby-sitter, this thing is not going to last. So, all these successes that O'Hanlon and Pollack point to exist. They're real. But the report is very one-dimensional. It doesn't look at what's being done to achieve this and what long-term sustainability there is.

I mean, these guys, unfortunately, were only in the country for eight days. And they point to a success story of a neighborhood in Baghdad called Ghazaliya. They say it's peaceful. We could walk around in a Sunni area.

Yes, that's because it's divided. And the Iraqi army troops won't let the Shia in. And the Shia army troops, just last week, there was an incident where the Iraqi commander of those troops went to remove all the furniture from a Sunni's house. And, when a fellow Shia protested, he arrested that Shia.

That's the success we're talking about. The question is, is America prepared to pay this price? Yes, it will give you the numbers on pieces of paper that will allow your Congress to let you leave, but are you willing to endure what will follow?

COOPER: Michael Ware, embedded with U.S. forces -- Michael, stay safe.

WARE: Thank you, Anderson.


I think that Mr. Ware is certainly in a position to know what is going on in Iraq. I'm sick of the false rosey pictures, and the propaganda promoted by the Bush administration, propaganda being the kind word to use.

The occupation in Iraq, was a huge mistake. Negotiating with the enemy, ANY enemy, should be a reasonable course for solving conflicts. If George Bush and the neocons had given a damn about the death and destruction of innocent Iraqis, American Troops, and the absolute hell of war, instead of Oil, and making their cronies richer, a lot of people would still be alive. War should always be a last resort. This war was not launched against people who would kill you at the negotiating table. Those people are still plotting their next attack, with growing numbers, and greater strength.

The strategy was wrong. Occupying Iraq, was a mistake. Bush is a lying, incompetent, power mongering, fear mongering, failure as a president. That description fits his entire original cabinet. Continuing any campaign, with George Bush at the helm, is a mistake. He is not, and never was, fit to serve as President of the United States Of America, and the Republican Majority, was completely remiss, and irresponsible, to allow him to abuse his power, cotinue to decieve, and waste lives and treasure in a militarily unwinnable war, to benefit people who say it is alright to kill Americans.

Gayle in Md.

Drop1
08-06-2007, 08:57 AM
Again I ask,how do we know,when this war is won?

Gayle in MD
08-06-2007, 09:10 AM
It is unreasonable to compare this war with any other war that our country has faced. The American People were abused by an administration which capitalized on our grieving nation, which was in shock from the events of 9/11. We were mislead, in a very dishonerable manner, and IMO, any American who refused to kill the citizens of a country that had not attacked us, and which the greater amount of intelligence suggested had no means, or likelihood to attack us, would have been entirely within their own human rights, given that those who sought to send them, lied about the necessity to serve, and fixed intelligence, to suit their personal egotistical agendas.

Too bad George Bush didn't share your dedication to serving his country in war time. Perhaps, had he not opted for his daddy to use his connections to keep him safely away from battle, when it was his turn to serve, people would extend some compassion his way as he abuses our troops through ignorance and incompetence, through inhumane treatment, extensive re-deployments of the same people, over and over, without proper equipment, rest and training. Given his deceit, and overall incompetence, I doubt it would have helped his poll numbers, but he might not be such an obvious chicken hawk, arrogant through it all, and without justification, or even the humility to apologize for such a devastating failure in leadership as to send our people head long into a campaign which so many had warned would be a mistake.

Supporting our troops, in this case, means withdrawing support for the war, and saving them from the likes of George Bush and Dick cheney. It isn't the first time this has been so, only the most pressing time, given the possible consequences of further escalation, and the certain pointless destrucation of human life which will surely occur if this original mistaken occupation continues under the failed leaders of this administration.

Unfortunately, some in this country still put stock in the predictions of what the results would look like if we left. Ironically, the worst case scenarios, all come from those who have been wrong about everything from the start. Most of those experts, with the greatest experience and knowledge of the Middle East, say that the region will experience the same results, regardless of whether we stay, or leave, and many say that leaving will in the long run, save the most lives, most of them Iraqis.

The damage has already been done, and Pandora's Box was already hastily opened, recklessly, and un-necessarily, by Chicken Hawks, as is often the case, and particularly so when there is no draft.

If America is to rebuild its former high moral ground among the nations of the world, as peacmakers, then we are remiss as Americans to allow the continued destruction of our international agreements, humanitarian traditions, and even our own garenteed Constitutional rights to privacy and freedom. Our message, IMO, should be that when an American President goes to war under false pretenses, he is removed from office, prosecuted for any and all war crimes committed, and jailed, along with his co-conspiritors. To do otherwise, would be the most grievious act of treason, against our nation, and all nations, and serve only to put our great country in the same category with those countries who seek to dictate, invade, illegally occupy, and destroy recklessly the traditions and existence of other nations as they have evolved through their own struggles for peac and freedom. We were not invited, and we are being asked to leave, by the majority of Iraqis, and by the majority of Americans. We are witnessing the most incredible display of egotistical irresponsibility ever experienced in our history. This was an illegal occupation of another nation, and not as a last resort. An act which should be condemned by all Americans.

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
08-06-2007, 09:17 AM
When the American People demand the impeachment of George Bush, and Dick Cheney, we will have won the true war in which we are presently engaged.

Iraq, is not a war, on terror, or on anything else. Our occupation, was illegal. Was not a last resort, and war with Iraq, was not declared by Congress.

The war we are in, is an American war, with a criminal administration, which seeks to remove our rights and turn our country into a dictatorship/monarchy/third world country.

Gayle in Md.

DickLeonard
08-06-2007, 02:17 PM
Gayle as much as I stand Squarely behind you, your just wasting your words. Better to be sailing the Seven Seas and putting your words in a Bottle.

This could be a follow up AD For what Card do You Have in Your Wallet only Hitting Ed"s Head with a Mallett.####

Gayle in MD
08-07-2007, 03:43 AM
LOL. Well, you're probably right, Dick, but it doesn't cost me anything to state my feelings and opinions about Iraq, and when our troops are being abused, I feel an obligation to speak out about it, over and over. Occasionally it makes a difference. Our country is under attack now, by insiders, who are destroying it. The situation is much more serious than many want to believe. It's important, to keep the issues at the fore front, at every opportunity, if we love America, and the ideals we have embraced for over 200 years. We owe it to our kids, and to all those who have given their last full measure of devotion. Goerge Bush and Dick Cheney should be held accountable for all their plundering of American ideals.

Love,
Gayle

Gayle in MD
08-07-2007, 08:37 AM
Naz,
Not only did they want it so badly, but they wanted it badly enough to thumb their noses at loads of people who knew more, and knew better than to launch it in the first place. Yet we have to put up with the same know-it-all right wing pundits who pushed for this mess, and were wrong all along about everything, like that red faced idiot, William Kristol, thinking they still have a right to be taken seriously, and their opinions respected. It's a joke!

Launching this war, as they did, against the best advice of experts, and then following that with complete incompetence, is something we've never had to digest in our history. There has been no other time when America made such a drastic mistake, but then, we've never been under the orders of so many pompus, arrogant chicken hawks, with no personal experience of war, and with such expertise for avoiding responsibility, by changing the facts.

Everytime I hear Bush say the whole world thought SH had WMD, I get indigestion. Hans Blix, Mohammed ElBaradai, Scott Ritter, Ray McGovern, David Albright, Robert Baer, Joseph Wilson, and many others all knew the Bush Administration was cooking the intelligence and rushing the country to war; dozens of people resigned from the CIA and the State Department in protest prior to the invasion; over 14 million peace protesters demonstrated worldwide on February 15, 2003; the U.N. rejected a resolution authorizing the use of force; hence, the administration demonized the UN, and also the Arab League, the Islamic Conference, Germany, Russia, France, China, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, the Organization of American States, America's most respected and knowledgable terrorist Czar, and the Organization of African Unity, all opposed the invasion. Bush's on-going BS excuse that "we all got it wrong," therefore "we" are all blameless, is the biggest lie of all, and ranks right up there with "They can run, but they can't hide" or "We'll fight them over there, so we don't have to fight them over here" or "They hate us for our freedom" It is just a device to deflect accountability for the disaster. Bush and his supporters are just deliberately making a bogus argument to shield themselves from responsibility. Accountability is no where to be found, in spite of the overwhelming evidence that occupying Iraq, was the bigest mistake this country has ever made, and only Vietnam comes close. Atleast we had a President during Nam, with enough sense to get the hell out of an impossible situation, and change course in the midst of a militarily unwinnable war. No such possibility with the brick head in charge. He's going to have it his own way, regardless of the fact that Americans want out, Iraqis want us out, and being over there is nothing but a very dangerous distraction from the important real and present danger, getting bin Laden, and destroying his training camps in the areas around the Afghanistan/Pakistan borders, and seeking out and destroying every cell in every country that we can find. Not staying in a losing situation that is providing yet another training camp for terrorists, who then leave Iraq, and take their expertise to their own homeland to kill more innocents.

His little performance in NY after 9/11, was nothing but a staged photo op, just like his BS after Katrina, designed to give him the appearance of a leader.

He can choke back all the tears he wants when he surrounds himself with those staged rows of troops, in controled situations, but when America hates a President and Vice President so badly that they are chicken to even throw out a baseball at the ballpark, because they know they'll be booed right off the field, there's a damned good reason, and most of us know why, and all the Coulters and Limbaughs and Kristols and Hannity's in the world, can't change that.

When the Iraqi Parliament left Iraq for a month long vacation this month, we should have flown in every single air force, and commercial aricraft in this country, and pulled our people out of there. There is no good reason for our people to die in that sand, to save the lives of the people that George Bush has turned against them with his stupid decisions, and bull headed ignorance. If cut and run means getting out of a slaughter that can't be won, has made everything worse, and is bankrupting the country, then I'm all for it. Bush, should be impeached, before he arms the rest of the Arab world. We'll be looking back ten years from now at the pictures of Bush and Cheney shaking hands with Maliki, when he starts to slaughter the people over there, just like the pics of Rumsfeld and Saddam, shaking hands after we propped him up, and filled his hands with weapons and technology, and here's Bush, spreading around more weapons. This is why I say that if one studies history, Reagan, Bush Senior, and Bush Junior, and what they each have done in the Middle East, there is nothing worse for America, than Republican Presidents, and Nixon was a prince, compared to this one. They did all the things that put us right in the sights of the Islamist Radicals, and created the bin Ladens of the world, which are our greatest threat. Saddam, was nothing more than a sitting duck, which other Arabs in the Middle East would have destroyed eventually on their own. No Nation Building, as stated by Bush Junior, will make, his father's lie, No New Taxes, a vague and unimportant memory of a man who's biggest mistake was not having the decency to warn America that his son had no skills to lead this country, and no business in the White House.

Gayle in Md.









Hans Blix, Mohammed ElBaradai, Scott Ritter, Ray McGovern, David Albright, Robert Baer, Joseph Wilson, and many others all knew the Bush Administration was cooking the intelligence and rushing the country to war; dozens of people resigned from the CIA and the State Department in protest prior to the invasion; over 14 million peace protesters demonstrated worldwide on February 15, 2003; the U.N. rejected a resolution authorizing the use of force; and the Arab League, the Islamic Conference, Germany, Russia, France, China, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, the Organization of American States, and the Organization of African Unity, all opposed the invasion. Ignatieff here is repeating the Bush-Cheney lie; the mantra that "we all got it wrong," therefore "we" are all blameless. It is just a device to deflect accountability for the disaster. A person with Ignatieff's intellectual gifts knows he is deliberately making a bogus argument to shield himself from responsibility. That doesn't sound like a mea culpa to me.
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Vapros
08-07-2007, 09:31 AM
Does anyone here know whether the state of Maryland has any mental health programs or facilities?

Deeman3
08-07-2007, 09:45 AM
She's Baaack..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

eg8r
08-07-2007, 10:24 AM
[ QUOTE ]
It is unreasonable to compare this war with any other war that our country has faced. <hr /></blockquote> I have read this type of statement from you twice in this thread alone, however it was you who in the recent past was doing comparisons.

eg8r

Drop1
08-07-2007, 11:46 AM
I'm sure there must be one that would admit you

Vapros
08-07-2007, 12:20 PM
Aw, Harry, you old rascal. You're much too sharp and clever for me. You might be ready to turn professional. Or something . . .