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coolluke
08-10-2007, 01:08 PM
I am new to the APA but not to pool. I notice there is a lot of sandbagging going on. It seems as if everyone wants to go to Vegas, so they are trying to keep their SL number low so they will do well in the playoffs. Is my perception wrong?

ken_r
08-10-2007, 01:29 PM
IMO, there is a lot more poor scorekeeping than sandbagging. Although there are certainly those sandbagging.

Having a good league operator really helps.

Deeman3
08-10-2007, 02:22 PM
Warning! If there is one more posting about the APA Sandbagging issues, there are people on this board that will hunt you down and kill you just for the heck of it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

ken_r
08-10-2007, 02:26 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the issue has been beaten to death already.

BigRigTom
08-10-2007, 04:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ken_r:</font><hr> /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the issue has been beaten to death already. <hr /></blockquote>

Resurrected and beaten to death several times.
This subject has more lives than a cat! /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Tom_In_Cincy
08-10-2007, 06:43 PM
When I started the APA (aka Bush League) back in the early, 80s, there was poor score keeping and sand bagging.

When will the APA do something about this? it has been 27 or so years and the same complaint over and over....

Then again.. there are so many APA players that are capable of pointing out sandbaggers... you wonder if it is because they are EXPERTS at sandbagging themselves... anyway I gave it up for tournaments and matching up in the late 80s...

Some things never change

wolfdancer
08-10-2007, 06:52 PM
My own theory on the matter is quite different...I believe that sand bagging is at a minimum....otherwise how can you explain the popularity of the APA?
What I think is actually happening is that the excitement of the competitions, at the Regional and National levels, gets players to release that inner pool beast that resides within, abandon the limits that the mind has imposed, and thus become free to play to the level of their real ability.
I also believe in the legitimacy of W.W.E. matches, and that the 1919 World Series was not fixed, as is alleged.
If a 120 bowler can roll a perfect game, a 30 handicapper can shoot par....why can't an SL-2 score a perfect 1000 Accu-stat rating?
Don't be so negative.....

Rich R.
08-10-2007, 08:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote coolluke:</font><hr> I am new to the APA but not to pool. I notice there is a lot of sandbagging going on. It seems as if everyone wants to go to Vegas, so they are trying to keep their SL number low so they will do well in the playoffs. Is my perception wrong? <hr /></blockquote>
I think the amount of sandbagging varies from league to league. In my league, there is very little. However, when we go to regionals, we see low level players who play much better than their rating. Have they been sandbagging, or are they just having a good day? No one knows for sure. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Scott Lee
08-11-2007, 07:53 AM
I agree with the poor scorekeeping issue. Most teams "appoint" a scorekeeper, and that person keeps score for the whole team. Frequently the two 'scorekeepers' sitting near each other to "keep up on what happened"! That's BS. Every player should have to know how to, and take part in keeping score. That's the only way to keep things aboveboard. The "What'd you get for that last game?" mentality of scorekeeping does nothing to protect the integrity of the system. In my league there was ZERO sandbagging...but I only had about 600 players to keep track of. If you were caught sandbagging in my league you were kicked out permanently.

Scott Lee

KellyStick
08-11-2007, 09:37 AM
There will always be sandbagging. Screw em! Kick their asses anyway!! Take it as an added challenge! Kick em HARD!

mantis
08-11-2007, 10:39 AM
I really don't see why APA leagues are still so popular. They do not use the world standardized rules, and their handicapping system leaves itself open to sandbagging. Why not play by the same rules that the pros play by? It makes no sense to me.

I can see though, that someone, especially a low handicapper, can improve a lot over a season, and be better than their handicapp by the end of the season, especially if they were bad enough to start with.

BigRigTom
08-11-2007, 11:15 AM
The APA system openly favors the lesser skilled players...thus the 23 rule and no more than 2 top players can play in one night.
The APA is great for bringing in new blood to this sport and the handicap system is the key.
Sandbaggers will only survive for so long then get bounced either by the league operator or by national handicap committee when they disqualify them in Vegas...maybe costing the team a trophy and some big bucks.
Meanwhile back on the ranch, just relax and enjoy the game and like Kellystick says kick their butts in spite of their sandbagging.

mantis
08-11-2007, 02:23 PM
Why not play by BCA and the world standardized rules though? They need to get rid of shooting behind the break line after a scratch!

Rich R.
08-11-2007, 02:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mantis:</font><hr> Why not play by BCA and the world standardized rules though? They need to get rid of shooting behind the break line after a scratch! <hr /></blockquote>
Where have you been? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
In the APA, they only shoot from behind the break line after a scratch on the break, the same as the BCA and the World Standardized rules. After that, it is cue ball in hand, the same as the rest.

Cornerman
08-12-2007, 06:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote coolluke:</font><hr> I am new to the APA but not to pool. I notice there is a lot of sandbagging going on. It seems as if everyone wants to go to Vegas, so they are trying to keep their SL number low so they will do well in the playoffs. Is my perception wrong? <hr /></blockquote>There are several distinct reasons why people perceive 'sandbagging' in the APA. IMO, the reality is that there is less sandbagging than people are willing to admit.

1. Regional differences - a weak region will have certain players winning with a higher percentage than they would have if they played in stronger region. That's because at the heart of the Equalizer system, innings per win is the base of the handicap. And innings will be kept low simply from winning at a higher percentage. That is to say, an SL-7 in a weak region might only be an SL-5 in a very strong region. This happens more often than people could imagine.

2. Tournament and table conditions - different regions rarely see each other unless it's at a state or national tournament. And ususually, the table conditions are going to be better and easier than at the local bar.

Also, if players normally play on 9' tables, their game is going to be different on a 7' bar table. There is a little checkbox in most score cards for table size, but, IMO, whatever forumula adjustments the APA makes for the table size can't possibly address all the nuances. There ought to be a "table conditions" checkbox as well.

3. Ego - probably the biggest reason for intra-region cries of sandbagging. If a person wins or loses, s/he will be accused of sandbagging. It doesn't matter which one. If he loses, he's accused of sandbagging right now. If he wins, he's accused of previously sandbagging to maintain a lower handicap. The one time he runs out in his life, he's accused of sandbagging. If he blows an easy shot... sandbagging. A player can't do anything and not be accused of sandbagging unless he's a top handicap (Sl-7 or SL-9).

So, when people say that there is a lot of sandbagging going on, I pretty much don't believe them. Players in the APA are amateurs with huge swings in their skill level. Sometimes they're going to do fantastically; other times they can suck worse than suck can suck. APA members should just get over it and play.

Fred

mantis
08-12-2007, 10:16 AM
My bad. I do not play an APA league, but was told by a friend who plays in one that they still play that way!

coolluke
08-13-2007, 08:07 AM
My thanks to those who had constructive comments. I now have a better idea of the league the players.

bsmutz
08-13-2007, 01:35 PM
I agree that there is probably less sandbagging than what most people perceive. As stated above, I think it has more to do with someone who got beat trying to assuage their ego. My advice is to take sandbagging out of your vocabulary while playing APA. Don't give it any credence. If someone else brings it up, get that glazed look in your eye like you're thinking about a strawberry milkshake until they're done. Work on improving your skill until you can compete with most anyone, then join the APA Masters and say goodbye to ranking, scorekeeping, and sandbagging.

billiards89
08-13-2007, 02:03 PM
when i was in regionals this last year i was the only person left on the team that could play Im a 6 there high player was a 5 they still had him but they put up a 4 she beat me 3 to 3 the games she won were in 1 2 and 3 innings im like how does a 4 run the table in 1 inning consistantly and play defense at the right times

BigRigTom
08-13-2007, 02:54 PM
I have been beaten severely in very similar ways.
Example...
I played a 3 and in the 2nd rack, I scratched on the 8 ball as a dumb mistake on my part.
That made the score 1 to 1 in a 5 to 2 race.
He broke and ran...next week he was a 4....he he.
I have played his team several times since then and he tells me he has not had a break and run since. Very nice fellow and I believe him. It happens and lower level players really get up for a game against a 6 or 7 so you just have to raise your level of play accordingly or take the hit.

BLACKHEART
08-14-2007, 04:04 PM
Work on improving your skill until you can compete with most anyone, then join the APA Masters and say goodbye to ranking, scorekeeping, and sandbagging. <hr /></blockquote>

I find this quote interesting because YOU may have the ABILLITY to advance YOUR game to this lofty level, but the vast majority of players will never advance past the ranking of 4 or 5. It's these lower ranked players that are the heart &amp; soul of all leagues, APA in particular. Because of the 23 point rule, these people are like gold. I can find dozens of 6 &amp; 7 ranked players, but finding a decent 3 or 4 is the goal of every captain...JER

jjinfla
08-14-2007, 04:45 PM
There is a lot of sandbagging along the Mississippi River.

APA is to Sandbagging as Wrestling is to fixed.

I don't know which side is funnier; those who say there is no sandbagging or those that try to prove there is sandbagging.

I now enjoy playing for a dollar a game. Sometimes I let him win and sometimes he lets me win. Either way, it is a lot of fun.

Jacob

bsmutz
08-14-2007, 06:01 PM
Sorry if I offended or misspoke. What I was really trying to say was that if you are going to play APA (regular league), you pretty much have to accept the way things are. I personally think that the organization could make some pretty simple changes to make the league more fun and make the sandbagging issue not as big as it is now. I agree that the lower skilled players make up the majority of all leagues and are essential to grow the sport. I have played in a few different leagues and feel that the APA Masters has been the best experience that I have had playing league. They made it real easy for us to start a team and play.

BigRigTom
08-14-2007, 06:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> Work on improving your skill until you can compete with most anyone, then join the APA Masters and say goodbye to ranking, scorekeeping, and sandbagging. <hr /></blockquote>

I find this quote interesting because YOU may have the ABILLITY to advance YOUR game to this lofty level, but the vast majority of players will never advance past the ranking of 4 or 5. It's these lower ranked players that are the heart &amp; soul of all leagues, APA in particular. Because of the 23 point rule, these people are like gold. I can find dozens of 6 &amp; 7 ranked players, but finding a decent 3 or 4 is the goal of every captain...JER <hr /></blockquote>

No truer words were ever spoken.
My wife is just such a player.
I have said before "She is able to play like a 5 if the chips are down but she really is a solid 3 and is reasonably content to be at that level.
She likes to play 5's when possible.
She can beat just about any of them as a 3 and when she really applys her "A" game which admittedly she can not always count on thus her ranking.....
She does very well under pressure (many 5's come in cocky and thinking they have an easy win until she starts running 5 balls at a time) but she has a tendency to play down to the level of lesser skill levels including the 3's who often beat her because of lucky rolls or carelessness on her part when she trys to make shots instead of playing safetys.

She is exactly the kind of player a team needs in the pinch because she thrives on the pressure and shoots her best game when she knows the teams needs her to bear down! Often shocking the unwary 4 or 5.

Cydpkt
08-15-2007, 02:59 PM
My team captain and I look for decent "coachable" 2-3's. Of course with those who truly apply themselves will be moving up in short order. We put together a team and had a team meeting saying that our goal was 1st place, win the tourney to be able to go to Vegas. He actually told people that if that didn't interest them then that was ok but they needed to look for a different team. Our 4 has now become what I would consider a medium to strong 5. He said that it helped him to have a goal. He used to slam the balls around the table. For a year and a half we tried to get him to play with some finess and pocket speed. He has slowed down his game and plays a few safeties at times. If only a few others could take his lead. But then we would become top heavy and have to bring in some new blood. Isn't that the true meaning of the APA though.

MrLucky
08-15-2007, 07:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> When I started the APA (aka Bush League) back in the early, 80s, there was poor score keeping and sand bagging.

When will the APA do something about this? it has been 27 or so years and the same complaint over and over....

Then again.. there are so many APA players that are capable of pointing out sandbaggers... you wonder if it is because they are EXPERTS at sandbagging themselves... anyway I gave it up for tournaments and matching up in the late 80s...

Some things never change <hr /></blockquote>

actually Tom things are much better than the bush League days ! It seems perhaps due to these type post more people are complaining about it now ! /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Scott Lee
08-15-2007, 09:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote MrLucky:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> When I started the APA (aka Bush League) back in the early, 80s, there was poor score keeping and sand bagging.

When will the APA do something about this? it has been 27 or so years and the same complaint over and over....

Then again.. there are so many APA players that are capable of pointing out sandbaggers... you wonder if it is because they are EXPERTS at sandbagging themselves... anyway I gave it up for tournaments and matching up in the late 80s...

Some things never change <hr /></blockquote>

actually Tom things are much better than the bush League days ! It seems perhaps due to these type post more people are complaining about it now ! /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Phil...Please check your PM's on AzB and CALL ME!

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
08-15-2007, 09:33 PM
tap, tap, tap JER!

Scott Lee

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> Work on improving your skill until you can compete with most anyone, then join the APA Masters and say goodbye to ranking, scorekeeping, and sandbagging. <hr /></blockquote>

I find this quote interesting because YOU may have the ABILLITY to advance YOUR game to this lofty level, but the vast majority of players will never advance past the ranking of 4 or 5. It's these lower ranked players that are the heart &amp; soul of all leagues, APA in particular. Because of the 23 point rule, these people are like gold. I can find dozens of 6 &amp; 7 ranked players, but finding a decent 3 or 4 is the goal of every captain...JER <hr /></blockquote>