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View Full Version : Attention Please! Action at Kickshot Billiards in



BillPorter
08-11-2007, 11:40 AM
Let me begin by saying that I am not sure this post is appropriate for this forum. It is an announcement of an opportunity to gamble on pool, so if it is inappropriate, please ask the moderator of the forum to delete this post.
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One of the co-owners of Kickshot Billiards in Florence, KY just called me to ask that I post something about this opportunity for action. He said that anyone not ranked among the top 10-15 players can get action right now at Kickshot. Big name, top players can get played, but will have to give up some kind of weight. Folks, I don't want to come across as woofing at anyone in particular - I just want to help put people together who like to gamble at pool. BTW, I was not given the name or names of the player or players at Kickshot who will be available for action, but I was given the phone number, and that is 859-647-7468. I have no stake in this deal, I am just doing a favor for a friend by making this post. And I can say that I believe it is a legit offer and that reasonable match-ups for 4 figures will be available. Please call the phone number above with questions as I personally don't have much to add to what I just wrote. Thanks!

1Time
08-14-2007, 07:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BillPorter:</font><hr> Let me begin by saying that I am not sure this post is appropriate for this forum. It is an announcement of an opportunity to gamble on pool, so if it is inappropriate, please ask the moderator of the forum to delete this post.
================================================== ========
One of the co-owners of Kickshot Billiards in Florence, KY just called me to ask that I post something about this opportunity for action. He said that anyone not ranked among the top 10-15 players can get action right now at Kickshot. Big name, top players can get played, but will have to give up some kind of weight. Folks, I don't want to come across as woofing at anyone in particular - I just want to help put people together who like to gamble at pool. BTW, I was not given the name or names of the player or players at Kickshot who will be available for action, but I was given the phone number, and that is 859-647-7468. I have no stake in this deal, I am just doing a favor for a friend by making this post. And I can say that I believe it is a legit offer and that reasonable match-ups for 4 figures will be available. Please call the phone number above with questions as I personally don't have much to add to what I just wrote. Thanks!
<hr /></blockquote>

Before anyone runs off to Kentucky to gamble on a pool game, I suggest glancing through the following Kentucky Revised Statutes:

CLICK HERE (http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/Kentucky/)

372.010 Gambling transactions void.

372.020 Recovery of gambling losses from winner or his transferee.

BillPorter
08-15-2007, 06:51 AM
I found this section to be the most interesting:

<font color="red"> (3) (a) "Gambling" means staking or risking something of value upon the outcome of a contest, game, gaming scheme, or gaming device which is based upon an element of chance, in accord with an agreement or understanding that someone will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome. A contest or game in which eligibility to participate is determined by chance and the ultimate winner is determined by skill shall not be considered to be gambling.</font color>

SpiderMan
08-15-2007, 10:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BillPorter:</font><hr> I found this section to be the most interesting:

<font color="red"> (3) (a) "Gambling" means staking or risking something of value upon the outcome of a contest, game, gaming scheme, or gaming device which is based upon an element of chance, in accord with an agreement or understanding that someone will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome. A contest or game in which eligibility to participate is determined by chance and the ultimate winner is determined by skill shall not be considered to be gambling.</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Good eye. It pays to read all the details.

There probably exists case law, from past prosecutions, that has already set a precedent in Kentucky regarding whether the "ultimate winner" is judged to be substantially determined by "skill" or by "chance".

SpiderMan

1Time
08-15-2007, 12:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BillPorter:</font><hr> I found this section to be the most interesting:

<font color="red"> (3) (a) "Gambling" means staking or risking something of value upon the outcome of a contest, game, gaming scheme, or gaming device which is based upon an element of chance, in accord with an agreement or understanding that someone will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome. A contest or game in which eligibility to participate is determined by chance and the ultimate winner is determined by skill shall not be considered to be gambling.</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Good eye. It pays to read all the details.

There probably exists case law, from past prosecutions, that has already set a precedent in Kentucky regarding whether the "ultimate winner" is judged to be substantially determined by "skill" or by "chance".

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Both of you have misinterpreted the "(3) (a)" paragraph. As it pertains to this thread, the first sentence in it means playing pool for money in Kentucky is gambling. The second sentence only applies if one's participation is determined by chance, in which case in Kentucky this is not gambling. For example, if a person is determined at random to shoot a half court shot at a basketball game to win a prize, in Kentucky this is not gambling.

SpiderMan
08-15-2007, 01:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BillPorter:</font><hr> I found this section to be the most interesting:

<font color="red"> (3) (a) "Gambling" means staking or risking something of value upon the outcome of a contest, game, gaming scheme, or gaming device which is based upon an element of chance, in accord with an agreement or understanding that someone will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome. A contest or game in which eligibility to participate is determined by chance and the ultimate winner is determined by skill shall not be considered to be gambling.</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Good eye. It pays to read all the details.

There probably exists case law, from past prosecutions, that has already set a precedent in Kentucky regarding whether the "ultimate winner" is judged to be substantially determined by "skill" or by "chance".

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Both of you have misinterpreted the "(3) (a)" paragraph. As it pertains to this thread, the first sentence in it means playing pool for money in Kentucky is gambling. The second sentence only applies if one's participation is determined by chance, in which case in Kentucky this is not gambling. For example, if a person is determined at random to shoot a half court shot at a basketball game to win a prize, in Kentucky this is not gambling. <hr /></blockquote>

That's a reasonable assessment. I read too quickly, and did not note the prerequisite condition in the last sentence.

Anyone from Kentucky able to provide additional input on how wagers between individuals are actually being treated?

SpiderMan

1Time
08-15-2007, 01:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>
Anyone from Kentucky able to provide additional input on how wagers between individuals are actually being treated? <hr /></blockquote>

Treated by whom... law enforcement, the courts, fellow gamblers, yo' mama?

BillPorter
08-17-2007, 06:57 AM
I found a couple of interesting items in "A Comparative Study of State Laws on Social Gambling" by Bob Ciaffone. ( http://www.pokercoach.us/SOCIAL%20GAMBLING.htm) According to this study, a pool player, merely betting on himself playing a game of pool, would not be subject to prosecution. Here is the quote:

"SHOULD PLAYERS BE PROSECUTED?

In any state, it is considered a lesser crime to be a player than a person who takes an active part in the running of a gambling operation. As has already been noted, a number of states exclude a person who bets on himself from their definition of "gambling." Some states go further. They have a clause which exempts players from prosecution. The following laws provide examples of this:

Kentucky, Law #528.010. "'Player* means a person who engages in any form of gambling solely as a contestant or bettor, without receiving or becoming entitled to receive any profit therefrom other than personal gambling winnings, and without otherwise rendering any material assistance to the establishment, conduct or operation of the particular gambling activity. A person who engages in bookmaking as defined in subsection (2) is not a 'player.' The status of a 'player' shall be a defense to any prosecution under this chapter.""

On the other hand, from a summary of Kentucky gaming laws ( http://www.gaminglawproject.com/viewstate.cfm?ID=KY ), we find this interesting little tidbit:

" V. Prohibition of Games of Skill
It appears that any person who pays to participate in a shooting match with the hope of winning a prize of greater value than the cost of participation would be in violation of this section. (Annotation from former Ky. Rev. Stat. Ann. § 436.200). 56 Op. Att’y Gen. 39173 (1956).

1. Poker/Card Games
2. Dice
3. Billiards

One who knowingly allows betting on pool games played on pool tables under his control and on premises under his control, may be convicted under this section or for the offense denounced by Ky. Rev. Stat. Ann. § 436.250. (Annotation from former Ky. Rev. Stat. Ann. 436.300). Allison v. Commonwealth, 298 S.W. 680 (Ky. 1927). Although the statute has changed, the new version, Ky. Rev. Stat. Ann. § 528.070 (1999), would seem to continue this as an offense."

Anyone ever hear of someone being arresting for gambling at the Derby City Classic in Louisville, KY? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Tom_In_Cincy
08-17-2007, 10:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BillPorter:</font><hr>
Anyone ever hear of someone being arresting for gambling at the Derby City Classic in Louisville, KY? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif <hr /></blockquote>

At the DCC, off duty policemen are used as security, often dressed as spectators and very NON-Visible.

Back in the 90s, the Kentucky state police shut down the Bookie, at the Lexington All Stars 9Ball/One Pocket tournaemnt, for not having a gaming licence.

The gambling 'Blue' laws of a lot of states have gone by the wayside with all the mega income the states get with the new 'casino' era.

It is interesting that a state like Kentucky which has had paramutal horse wagering for hundreds of years, makes it a crime to gamble on poker,card games, dice and billiards but not horses. More goverment hypocrocy?

Deeman3
08-17-2007, 11:45 AM
Any of you who knew Fats may remember he always carried an old article in his wallet showing a case won by a pool player against a gambling charge because it was an activity largely based on skill, not luck. It has been so many years, I don't remember the State or the details of the case but it was almost worn out from folding and unfolding when I last saw it in about 1989. Anyone else remember this? He claimed it got him and Jimmy Mataya out of trouble once just by showing it to a cop. Of course, Fats claimed a lot of things. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

dave666
08-17-2007, 11:50 AM
well bill, "1time" does like to throw laws at people all the time. i personally have seen thousands of $ on the lights in kentucky and have put several on them myself. gambling is against the law most places, but the game wouldn't be nearly as appealing if there wasn't any $ on it. hopefully your friend at kickshot billiards will get the action they are asking for . maybe we'll see him after vegas. don't worry we won't bring "1time". /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

1Time
08-18-2007, 09:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr>
It is interesting that a state like Kentucky which has had paramutal horse wagering for hundreds of years, makes it a crime to gamble on poker,card games, dice and billiards but not horses. More goverment hypocrocy? <hr /></blockquote>

No governmental hypocrisy here. In a country where citizens have a voice in choosing their law makers such as the U.S., laws reflect society. And so when laws seem to go two different ways such as this, it reflects a society that's going in two different ways.

dave666
08-19-2007, 05:35 PM
i do agree with 1time. the vote unfortunatly goes to those who vote. i say it that way because alot of the people who complain don't vote. so vote and be heard. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif but in the same breath you can't say one thing is legal to wager on and another is not without probable cause. just because people fight dogs and have been doing so for hundreds of years, that does not make it right bot just because i think it's wrong doesn't mean that it is so. most people act on what they believe not on what they are told.