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kf6okw
08-12-2007, 08:47 PM
I want to see a written set of rules for gentlemans callshot as played in bar coin-op tables. If you know where there are some, please tell me. If you don't , check out the set that I am putting together and tell me where I am wrong.
http://frazierpark.biz/gentlemens_callshot.html

ken_r
08-12-2007, 09:20 PM
Unfortunately there are probably as many sets of "Bar rules" as there are bars.

Rich R.
08-13-2007, 06:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote kf6okw:</font><hr> I want to see a written set of rules for gentlemans callshot as played in bar coin-op tables. If you know where there are some, please tell me. If you don't , check out the set that I am putting together and tell me where I am wrong.
http://frazierpark.biz/gentlemens_callshot.html <hr /></blockquote>
I just glanced at your set of rules, but I can tell you that calling all of the kisses, etc. is not real pool. You call a ball and a pocket, that is all.

Chopstick
08-13-2007, 06:40 AM
The rules are already published. There are the same on any table. The last thing we need is yet another made up set of 8 ball rules.

underdog
08-13-2007, 10:53 AM
I just glanced at your set of rules, but I can tell you that calling all of the kisses, etc. is not real pool. You call a ball and a pocket, that is all. <hr /></blockquote>

Anyone that says you need to call every kiss, rail, etc. is an idiot and is probably not very good. Any decent player knows that some times, kisses and things like that just happen. Every pro event I have ever seen is call ball, call pocket.

rurso1
08-13-2007, 11:38 AM
Bar Rules are exactly that. The Bar's Rules. There isn't an international set of rules that are made for bars only.
Does it really matter any way, I mean your both playing by the same rules so its a fair game.

kf6okw
08-13-2007, 12:03 PM
Actually, THAT IS THE PROBLEM! Since there are no written rules, every one with a different opinion marches to his own beat and this leads to many discrepancies (barfights and the like). I am in search of a bit more of a universally understood code for slot tables where the bulk of the players have grown up play not ball in hand, no table scratch , no balls spotted , you know what I mean. Must of us have played it at one point before we read the real (BCA) rules but many folks just want a bit of guidance on the game that they already know how to play (more or less). Thanks for your learned assistance.

mantis
08-13-2007, 12:14 PM
I would print a set of the BCA 8 ball rules, which are the same as the world standardized rules. No one in a bar seems to play by those rules, but they are the correct rules that are played with at every legitimate pool event. Simply state that you are playing by these rules, and any discrepancy can be resolved by simply referring to the rules. Better yet, ask the bar owner to allow you to post the rules for 8 ball, 9 ball etc.

Deeman3
08-13-2007, 12:27 PM
Chopstick said it best, "We don't need any more rules."

You have, for instance, BCA rules and they are perfectly fine but getting the clowns in all the bars to agree would be a tremendous accomplishment but impossible. For some odd reason, guys who can't play feel making the rules more unfair (calling balls clean, off others, for instance) gives them an advantage. It just mucks up a nice game. The better player has an even bigger advantage when you make "extra" rules. It does get tiring trying to tell folks this but if a slug wants you to play last pocket, you are going to have an even bigger advantage, unless you just can't remember the different rules for a bar, which would hurt the player strange to the bar. It is funny that they call slop slightly grazing off the side of a ball on the way into the pocket but a wild shot that gets them accidentally safe or an intentional scratch when your ball is behind the line is okie dokie....

I think I wrote some bar rules a few years ago on here but they had little to do with the actual game in progress. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Eric.
08-13-2007, 12:28 PM
Food for thought- the biggest problem with "bar rules" is not the different rules in every bar, it's the fact that a lot of rules cause more debate than less. In the absense of a ref, who is more "right"?

Some rules like calling the amount of rails hit are just ridiculous. What if you shoot a ball into the corner pocket and it grazes the side rail, going in? Some people cll it a good shot. Some people can say that you didn't call that rail. You follow?

I think that's the biggest reason for calling the ball and the pocket. This way, if the ball goes in, there is no argument. Period.


Eric &gt;still here, occasionally

ken_r
08-13-2007, 12:38 PM
Don't forget in bar rules you can never ever play safe. To do so means you are an ********. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

dg-in-centralpa
08-13-2007, 05:02 PM
The best thing to do is when you go into a strange bar to play, ask what the rules are. Plain and simple- then there should be no fights/arguments.

DG

pooltchr
08-13-2007, 06:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dg-in-centralpa:</font><hr> The best thing to do is when you go into a strange bar to play, ask what the rules are. Plain and simple- then there should be no fights/arguments.

DG <hr /></blockquote>
The best thing to do when you go into a strange bar is to sit at the bar and drink. When you are ready to play, go down the street to a pool room! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Steve

Bob_Jewett
08-13-2007, 06:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote kf6okw:</font><hr> I want to see a written set of rules for gentlemans callshot as played in bar coin-op tables. If you know where there are some, please tell me. If you don't , check out the set that I am putting together and tell me where I am wrong. <hr /></blockquote>
Your definition of a push shot is different from the BCA/WPA rules.

I think instead of a long set of rules that no one actually in a bar is ever going to read, you would be better off printing up signs that say in large print

NO SITTING ON THE TABLE

CALL THE BALL AND POCKET ONLY

NO SPITTING, KICKING OR EYE-GOUGING DURING LEAGUE PLAY

Well maybe not the last line. Depending on the bar. The first line is to get the bartender/owner to put the sign up. The second is to establish a reasonable rule.

bataisbest
08-13-2007, 08:41 PM
That's why I don't play in bars anymore. As soon as you start whipping somebody, they start with the things mentioned about rails , kisses, etc. I played in bars when I was'nt very good and used to drink alot. As I became better and more focused on the games strategies, I stopped going to bars and more to pool rooms. Although there are the occasional misunderstandings, for the most part people there tend to be pretty reasonable- and more sober as well. Just my 2 cents.

Deeman3
08-14-2007, 01:15 PM
My one last swat at this post. I once referred to the "house rules" by asking, Oh! We're playing by "children's rules"? When asked what "adult rules" were by the toothless crowd, I told them and for a brief few hours in a small Texas bar, we played by the real rules.

I have never tried that again and am not sure it would work elsewhere. I was just in the right place with the right answers that day. It has not been worth my time to try it again.

1Time
08-14-2007, 03:59 PM
Rules, schmules. I particularly enjoyed beating my opponents at 8-ball when they solely determined the rules before the game, or at times during the game. And some even changed the rules during the game after they already established them. No matter, I just took it in stride as their nonsense gave me all the more motivation to beat them anyway.

For those seriously concerned about rules though, I suggest carrying around a printed copy and obtaining your opponent's agreement before playing. Any set of rules or amendment to existing rules will do so long as they are known and each agree to them.

tim196
08-14-2007, 06:16 PM
Having read the responses so far, I won't suggest that anyone else play call shot, though that's what I've played since 1968 in bars in California and Arizona. Perhaps I just play in bars with players who are more comfortable playing "no slop". I think the best suggestion was to ask about the rules in the bar before you play. I've played both call pocket (in leagues) and call shot (in tournaments). Most of the people I've played with prefer call shot (meaning calling all kisses, caroms, banks, etc.) We have always treated the rail between the corner pocket and the first diamond as incidental and not necessary to call. Outside that diamond, the rail must be called. You can't play BCA rules in bars because you can't respot the 8 ball if you make it on the break; that's usually a win if the cue ball stays up and a loss if the cue scratches. In league they open up the tables and balls can be respotted, but no one is going to put in more quarters to spot balls in regular play. Most bars don't allow masse shots to protect the cloth and don't allow "last pocket" games because that slows down the flow of quarters. Most people in bars don't play/understand BCA Rules 4.3; 4.10; or 4.12. If new to a bar, spend the time to meet people and get to know the "local rules". Good luck!

Ralph S.
08-15-2007, 11:04 AM
I know you are trying to make a set of "bar rules", but as far as "bar rules" go, they really are nothing more than a joke and not considered by many to be true pool rules.

wolfdancer
08-15-2007, 12:43 PM
borrowing a saying from golf....."the Bible has only Ten Commandments, but bar pool has...."
to begin with "Gentlemen's Bar rules" is an oxymoron.I ain't never seen a gentleman, outside of myself, play bar pool. and the worst sportsmen I came across, was a room that opened in the financial district...they might be wearing Armani suits....but
All the "rules" which deviate from standard league play rules...are just designed to prevent the better player from running out....and showing up the weaker player....
now the Republicans are coming up with something similar for this next election...they are introducing "bar" rules, in the hopes of splitting the electoral votes in key states....and barring the Dems from a clean sweep....like the bar rules for pool...they'll just be prolonging the inevitable....

kf6okw
08-15-2007, 01:15 PM
Thank you very much for your positive feedback and very useful experience . It is the first i have gotten. Most of the other feed back has been bashing and a bunch of guys going "if you don't play like me, you are an idiot" and like that. Seems like ham radio operators thumbing there nose at CBers, or Ford owners at Chevy owners, or aggies at cats eye marbles.
So far as the that "free area by the final object pocket please checkout my "long rail rule" at http://frazierpark.biz/gentlemens_callshot.html and see if that would have kept your guys happy.
I have been playing league myself for nearly 20 years but have to drive about 3000 miles a year to get there. In my home town, these guys are good shots but terribly resistant to much change. If I followed the advice of most of these guys, I would have to reduce my playtime down to about 4 games a week. Makes me wonder who is more of an idiot, the local throw backs or the BCA rank and file (taking nothing away from the fine job the BCA is doing in their world). Thanks again, for your experience and candor. I wish more people would step up and share their growing experience.

tjlmbklr
08-15-2007, 01:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr>

I just glanced at your set of rules, but I can tell you that calling all of the kisses, etc. is not real pool. You call a ball and a pocket, that is all. <hr /></blockquote>


I couldn't agree more, unfortunately some people never heard of APA,BCA, etc. and only know there bar people life. Therefore they call the way you and I and everyone else on this forum plays....SLOP RULES! Seen it a million times.

1Time
08-15-2007, 05:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tjlmbklr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr>

I just glanced at your set of rules, but I can tell you that calling all of the kisses, etc. is not real pool. You call a ball and a pocket, that is all. <hr /></blockquote>


I couldn't agree more, unfortunately some people never heard of APA,BCA, etc. and only know there bar people life. Therefore they call the way you and I and everyone else on this forum plays....SLOP RULES! Seen it a million times. <hr /></blockquote>

Sorry guys, real pool does not only occur when the rules you prefer are used. Real pool is when the rules are known and agreed to by the participants before the event.

tim196
08-15-2007, 06:42 PM
Which "standard league rules" are you referring to? I've played in three different leagues and each had differing rules.

wolfdancer
08-15-2007, 09:24 PM
I'm the wrong person to be discussing the merits of all the different rules you play under. All the tournaments here use the standard BCA rules...same ones I played under in LV when I did play league.
They made sense to me and were easy to learn....simple game, simple rules....

tim196
08-16-2007, 11:56 AM
I've just spent 2 hours reviewing the rules for BCA, APA and TAP leagues on line. There are many differences between even these sets of rules. I won't go into all of them, but a few are: BCA and TAP require a stripe and solid at the back corner when racking; APA is silent on this. APA and TAP require marking the pocket before shooting the 8 ball; BCA has no such requirement. There is no discussion of a "coach" in BCA; both TAP and APA use coaches. BCA and TAP leagues leave the choice open after the break if an object ball is made; APA requires the breaker to shoot the category of ball made unles one or more of each is made. TAP requires object balls to be 100% outside the headstring to be legal for shooting from behind the headstring after a foul on the break; APA sites "dead center" meaning the bottom of the ball is resting on the headstring or beyond; BCA is silent on what outside the headstring means. APA would not allow shooting a ball behind the headstring in this situation; BCA and TAP allow it if the cue ball first goes past the headstring (as in a kick shot). Sinking the 8 on a break without a scratch is a win in TAP or APA; it's respotted in BCA. Enough...there are many more differences. There are a couple of bizzare rules in APA (one leg on floor required if no bridge available - does this mean you can sit on the table if no bridge is available?). My point is there are no standardized league rules, even among the major leagues. While BCA, TAP and APA don't require calling caroms, kisses, kicks, banks, etc; to say that people who play under these rules aren't playing real pool is incorrect. I agree with another player who said something like real pool is when everyone understands the rules that you are playing under at the start of the game.

Fran Crimi
08-16-2007, 12:56 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with another player who said something like real pool is when everyone understands the rules that you are playing under at the start of the game.
<hr /></blockquote>

I think that's true, but only to a certain extent. Rules have to make sense. If a rule doesn't make sense and everybody follows it, that doesn't make it real pool.

As for different leagues having different rules, I think that's perfectly okay. Leagues should taylor their rules to their particular circumstances and to the type of players they have in their leagues.

For example, World Standardized rules were created mainly for professonal players competing in international WPA Sanctioned events. These rules were created by and voted upon by 6 continental federations, each one with their own set of rules, so obviously, compromises would have to be made.

So, where you have world standardized rules like that, they can't just be taylored for U.S. pro playing, nor should they be considered as a standard for amateur playing as well. They are a compromise agreed upon by the world federations that would enable international players to compete in an international event such as the World Championships.

Fran

1Time
08-16-2007, 12:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> Real pool is when the rules are known and agreed to by the participants before the event. <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tim196:</font><hr>I agree with another player who said something like real pool is when everyone understands the rules that you are playing under at the start of the game. <hr /></blockquote>

Well at least that makes one who agrees with me. And thanks tim196 for sharing your research and findings on the subject.

wolfdancer
08-16-2007, 01:50 PM
I did play a couple of times at the senior center up here...now they have some rules that I've only seen used before in a NYC bar....I gave up even though the pool is free, and could have been a nice warm up for the tournament action at the Casino/pool room next door.
I don't know why the rules for play can't be standardized...

ras314
08-16-2007, 06:40 PM
Rich, most bars I've played in all over the country use call shot 8 ball rules. It sure is nice to find a few that don't though.

Anyways what I consider "gentlemen's rules" means you and your opponent can be trusted to take only shots you intended, without having to call every little thing. No ball in hand except scratches, ect. Also common is that you are supposed to try to pocket a ball every shot, no deliberate safeties.

Some places seem to have an unwritten rule that any foul (by whatever their rules are) is ok if not seen and called by your opponent. I even know a few lowlifes that get their kicks by seeing how much they can get away with. I suspect some of that nonsense is why written rules are scarce in bars.

In strange bar tournaments I usually ask the rules before starting and then tell whoever I play that I'm not sure of the rules and be sure to call anything I do wrong. Usually not enough money to be concerned about anyway.

When it gets down to a bit more money involved playing one person settle the rule questions before starting, best you can. Personally I like the simplest rules to interpret possible. Then try to start off cheap and settle differences in rules as they come up.

kf6okw
08-17-2007, 01:23 PM
This would be the first written set of rules for this bar with the managements permission. This is one of three local bars in a remote rural town. None of them have a written rules ....yet.

kf6okw
08-17-2007, 01:25 PM
great point. what is the penalty for playing safe and how do you define the difference between safe and defensive...or is that illegal too.

ken_r
08-17-2007, 04:33 PM
In typical bar rules you always try to make a ball. Playing safe or defensively leads to people questioning your manhood. Therefore, everybody pulls the "oops, I missed." or "oops, I scratched" maneuver.

In a bar league I played in it was actually in the rules that you had to try to make a ball. Unfortunately, the penalty for any foul in this league is loss of turn and the opponent gets the table the way it sits. Since would give up your turn on a safety anyway there really isn't a penalty.

Actually the way the rules were written you're better off just picking up the balls and moving them were you want them. All your opponent can do is call foul and he gets the table as is. No moving the balls back. Although I suspect you would have to fight your way out of the bar if you actually tried that in a match.

Cornerman
08-17-2007, 05:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote kf6okw:</font><hr> This would be the first written set of rules for this bar with the managements permission. This is one of three local bars in a remote rural town. None of them have a written rules ....yet. <hr /></blockquote>I'm probably not the only one scratching my head having no idea whether you understood any response back.

Your ruleset sucks. Plain and simply. You've used the term "Gentleman Call" completely incorrectly. I'd rather that you call it "Call All the Details." At least that wouldn't be insulting or misleading.

What you called "call pocket," IS "Gentleman Call," or simply "Call Shot," with the stipulation that you needn't call obvious pockets.

What I start to really not understand is that you've introduced rules that aren't typical barroom rules, and it confuses your intention. If you want barroom rules, then stick to standard ones, while keeping tabs on regional additions. If you're going to make up "bar rules," all for the sake of putting them down on paper, might as well get a BCA Poster, hang it on the wall and be done with it.

That all being said, here are the common bar rules across the country. But I hope you reconsider perpetuating such nonsense.

General Bar Pool Rules:
<ul type="square">
Call all the details.

Scratch on the break is NOT a loss, unless you pocket the 8-ball.

Approaching rail doesn't need to be call for pocketing object balls.

Approaching rail normally needs to be called for a kick into an object ball.

After the break, you take what you make. If you make at least one of each, it still is open.

Combinations - some bars only allow you to use your balls in a combination; several bars in Central Mass do not allow you to use your opponents balls in a combination whatsoever (even if you hit your ball first).

Scratching playing the 8-ball is a loss, even if the 8-ball doesn't go in

8-on-the-break is a win.

If all your object balls are behind the line, and you have ball-in-hand behind the line (in the kitchen), you must hit the cueball out of the kitchen (out of balk) first before hitting any of your object balls

The 8-ball must go in clean when it's the object ball.

There are no table scratches called. That is, any non-rail contacts, double-hits, push shots, scooping, etc., no need to call them since there's no penalty anyway.
[/list]

Oh yeah, you also have to say, "nice draw," everytime the cueball draws back even just one inch.

YOu have to twirl the rack after racking.

If it's a well-endowed woman who has just racked, you have to say, "nice rack." Them's the rulez after all.

HTH,

Fred

PoolFool
08-17-2007, 08:42 PM
It seems the rules keep changing. Bar rules or pro rules. This is a quote fom a guy who didn't know about BCA, APA, or ESPN rules. "If a player has cue ball in hand and the correct object ball--including 8-ball--is behind head string, object ball must be spotted on foot spot."

Regulation Rule Book for Pool and Billiards by Willie Mosconi, 1966.

I would like to see that rule brought back.

PoolFool

Sid_Vicious
08-17-2007, 09:04 PM
I do not understand. Are you saying that the OB is spotted, then the BIH anywhere on the table is the format? If the incoming player still has to play behind the line, then I see many ways to screw the guy. sid

kf6okw
08-18-2007, 02:17 AM
You get it! Gentleman does mean honesty! I am having a little problem sorting rules that appropriate punish safety play (in my best attempt to defend this beginerish desire) without punishing defensive play. My existing rule set is just a page or 2 unlike the common APA, BCA TAP etc. If you have a minute , please read them at http://frazierpark.biz/gentlemens_callshot.html Gentlemans callshot (http://frazierpark.biz/gentlemens_callshot.html) and feedback your critique. I would be valued, Thanks.

kf6okw
08-18-2007, 02:28 AM
Yea, I know. That one kills me two but in Rome....you know. They do not say defensive pool is out of the question though. One of my problems is drafting up some kind of punishment for safely play without injecting table scratch fouls. I don't see any other way though. A good shooter (of possibly questionable ethics) could always fake a miscue and bury the cue ball without driving a ball to the rail after a good hit and simply say "oops" , So I can't make a rule challenging "gentlemans" intent .

kf6okw
08-18-2007, 02:32 AM
That's my job. To represent the locals and write down the first consistent set of rules that this bar has ever had under the present management so that there will be less fights. Thanks for your observation.

kf6okw
08-18-2007, 02:38 AM
Yes I do follow and have even addressed the brushed rail situation in my rules (http://frazierpark.biz/gentlemens_callshot.html) under the "long rail rule". Do you think this rule would clean up the discrepancy.

kf6okw
08-18-2007, 02:44 AM
I'll re evaluate the push shot wording. You don't seem to have much faith in my pool children but thank you for sort of dignifying my post. At least you got me laughing. Thanks Bob.

kf6okw
08-18-2007, 02:47 AM
Timing is everything! I won't hold you to that "last swat" thing. The waters fine...thanks

kf6okw
08-18-2007, 02:57 AM
Sid , this format proposes ball in hand only in the kitchen.

kf6okw
08-18-2007, 03:15 AM
Yea I am having problems keeping it simple yet adequate. I have come up with an alternate to my rules (http://frazierpark.biz/gentlemens_callshot.html) , an overly simple set of bar rules that at least none of the men have bitched about. Let me know if these too are not up to your standards.
--------Guys-------
No shirt, no shoes , no service
-------Girls------
No shirt, no shoes, free drinks

really, though, thanks for you input.

PoolFool
08-18-2007, 08:39 AM
Sid, It's just like scratching on the break. Ball in hand behind the string line, object ball must be in front of string line. If the object ball (say only one ball left) is behind the string line then it is placed on the head spot. The advantage goes to shot makers.

PoolFool

ras314
08-18-2007, 10:19 AM
Nothing wrong with defensive play. Hard to write a fixed rule but it should indicate an "honest" attempt to pot a your ball should be made at all times. Particularly there should be some penalty for shenanigans such as deliberately pushing the cb to a bad spot without bothering to hit anything. If you have many of that kind of players your job is most likely hopeless anyway.

If I'm trying to win a match I will go as far as to play shape for a bad lie for the opponent on what I consider low percentage shots, but I do always attempt to make the shot. Or at least try hit the object ball when it is hid. If something like that won't work, might as well just copy the whole BCA rules or whatever and hope it works out.

I would much rather play BCA 8 ball rules as I think it makes for a much better game. Bar tournaments are few and far apart in the area, so not much choice. Actually going to BCA rules in the local bar caused so much hassle with a few jerks that I quit the place. Could be that introducing 9 ball at the same time was bad timing.

ken_r
08-18-2007, 12:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote kf6okw:</font><hr> Yea, I know. That one kills me two but in Rome....you know. They do not say defensive pool is out of the question though. One of my problems is drafting up some kind of punishment for safely play without injecting table scratch fouls. I don't see any other way though. A good shooter (of possibly questionable ethics) could always fake a miscue and bury the cue ball without driving a ball to the rail after a good hit and simply say "oops" , So I can't make a rule challenging "gentlemans" intent . <hr /></blockquote>

Even tables fouls doesn't stop safeties in "Bar rules". "Bar rules" say you should always try to make a ball. But unless you are going to make some punishment for missing a shot someone can always just miss a ball on purpose and have it hit the rail. Perfectly legal hit in the BCA but not "bar rules".

That's the problem with "bar rules". They want certain actions to not occur but they also don't want penalties when they do.

mantis
08-18-2007, 02:43 PM
That is a ridiculous rule brought about by lesser players who do not understand defensive play. It should be irradicated ASAP. It is only because they get mad when they have no shot. For two higher level players to play like this would be ridiculous, as any missed ball could lead to the opponent running out. For a lesser player, a missed ball generally brings little consequence, as most people can not run more than 2-3 balls at a time, but if you play someone who can routinely run 4-5 balls, safety play is a necessity, and should not be looked down upon. These are the people who still play ball behind the kitchen line after a scratch. Why not play a game by its real rules. Should we get a bounce on the floor in volleyball, or just hitting the rim in basketball should be worth 1 pt, or a mulligan every hole in golf. Pool has a standardized set of rules used world wide. If someone wants to have house rules at their own home, so be it, but playing in a public place should require use of the standard accepted rules. I do not mean to be harsh, but this seems like an easy answer to me. Just play by the actual rules.

wolfdancer
08-18-2007, 03:00 PM
Steve, great idea !!!

ken_r
08-18-2007, 03:22 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I do not mean to be harsh, but this seems like an easy answer to me. Just play by the actual rules. <hr /></blockquote>

I agree 100%.

However, the original poster can't get the other people to do that. So instead he is trying to put together a set of rules they will play by.

Frankly, if these people are anything like the people in the local bar league around here, it would be easier for him to just pack up and move. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

mantis
08-19-2007, 12:06 AM
May be a better idea to stick to pool hall leagues instead of bar leagues.

ken_r
08-19-2007, 01:26 AM
I get the impression that the bar league is the only option the original poster has. In my case, I do a little traveling to play in the APA. It's not perfect but it's a huge step up over the bar league.

ras314
08-19-2007, 06:24 AM
There are some areas where any kind of league is just too far to travel on a regular basis. 200 miles in my case, so it is either bars or nothing. I will play by any rules as best I can understand them but it sure would be nice to be able to read them.

Fact is, I'm usually happy just to find a regular size cb.

Cornerman
08-19-2007, 01:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote kf6okw:</font><hr> Yea I am having problems keeping it simple yet adequate. I have come up with an alternate to my rules (http://frazierpark.biz/gentlemens_callshot.html) , an overly simple set of bar rules that at least none of the men have bitched about. Let me know if these too are not up to your standards.
<hr /></blockquote>
I see the same set of rules that you put before. Is there another link you were supposed to show for your alternate rules?

For the link you've provided:

One of your rules says All on the Floor. You're missing a 'b.'

Your definition of Push Shot is incorrect. Might as well use EXACTLY what's written in the BCA rulebook instead.

Your definition of Double Hit is pretty much incorrect as well. A double hit is exactly what it is : hitting the cueball twice (or more) in the same stroke. The object ball has no bearing on a double hit, although most double hits are caused by the proximity of the cueball and object ball. But in the sense of the definition, there doesn't have to be an object ball at all for Double Hit to occur. There also doesn't have to be an object ball for an illegal Push Shot to occur. And nobody would call it a foul in a bar anyway.

And you're still using the "Gentleman Call" definition abomination. Can't you see how much you're insulting a lot of the posters by keeping it there after you've asked for help? Those rules (call all the nitty details) were invented by anything but gentlemen. To put that name to the is a disgrace.

Fred

New2Pool
08-19-2007, 05:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mantis:</font><hr> That is a ridiculous rule brought about by lesser players who do not understand defensive play. It should be irradicated ASAP. It is only because they get mad when they have no shot. For two higher level players to play like this would be ridiculous, as any missed ball could lead to the opponent running out. For a lesser player, a missed ball generally brings little consequence, as most people can not run more than 2-3 balls at a time, but if you play someone who can routinely run 4-5 balls, safety play is a necessity, and should not be looked down upon. These are the people who still play ball behind the kitchen line after a scratch. Why not play a game by its real rules. Should we get a bounce on the floor in volleyball, or just hitting the rim in basketball should be worth 1 pt, or a mulligan every hole in golf . Pool has a standardized set of rules used world wide. If someone wants to have house rules at their own home, so be it, but playing in a public place should require use of the standard accepted rules. I do not mean to be harsh, but this seems like an easy answer to me. Just play by the actual rules. <hr /></blockquote>

Wait, you mean not everyone plays a mulligan every hole in gold??? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

mantis
08-19-2007, 09:00 PM
I know you mean the golf thing jokingly, but it is exactly what I mean. A non-competitive golfer just out with friends would be happy to play with mulligans of some sort, and that is fine. But go into a competitive league, or play for money in a serious situation, and mulligans are used only as jokes during conversation. If people want to play by rules designed to help a lower level of play to make it more fun, great, but do not use the same rules during competition.

Cornerman
08-20-2007, 06:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mantis:</font><hr> I know you mean the golf thing jokingly, but it is exactly what I mean. A non-competitive golfer just out with friends would be happy to play with mulligans of some sort, and that is fine. But go into a competitive league, or play for money in a serious situation, and mulligans are used only as jokes during conversation. If people want to play by rules designed to help a lower level of play to make it more fun, great, but do not use the same rules during competition. <hr /></blockquote>To this point, those that play with mulligans know that they're playing something other than the rules of golf.

Likewise, some competitive bowlers also play leagues that count a 9-count as a strike on the first ball (No Tap). But they know they're doing something different than the true rules.

Unfortunately, it's the bar sports that their majority have no idea that what they're playing isn't the true rules. We have bar cricket (darts), bar foosball, and of course, bar pool.

I'm not a dart thrower, but I do know that growing up, we played by rules that we thought were the right rules, the fair rules, the more skillful rules... then I found out that know real dart player plays by those rules. And most of them wouldn't play cricket (similar to our playing 8-ball).

I won a few Foosball tournaments in college. We all played by the same rules. Some houses played by tougher rules (no score if the goalie touches the ball). I passed with my middle men all day long, and was praised for my 'ball control.' Years later, I ran into a guy who came in 3rd at the World Championships. He lost to another guy from the same city (Dayton). That's when I found out that the rules I was playing were all wrong, by professional and competitive standards. You can't pass with your middle men. Big difference, but the education was eye opening.

Unfortunately, those two games, real rules won't mean a thing in bars. And this is the same issue we have in pool. Players not having any idea that what they're playing aren't the competitive rules for that respective game. So, if we were to put down a set of rules that bar players would play, that sort of legitimizes their made up rules. I wouldn't want any part of that.

Fred

wolfdancer
08-20-2007, 12:39 PM
After you outlaw any safety play, in effect taking away a good percentage of strategy....you should come up with a new name for the game...because it ain't "pool" as played by tens of thousands who think that the sport's rules are fine as they are presently written.
After all is said and done...it sounds like the players at your bar are better at drinking and fighting, then playing pool...and no set of rules will eliminate that problem.

mantis
08-20-2007, 10:13 PM
Cornerman,

I do agree with you. I have played with people who look at me like I have two heads when I say BIH after a scratch in 8 ball. People truely do not know the rules. That is why I promote posting the basic world standardized rules.