PDA

View Full Version : Learn from the fall of Rome, US warned



nAz
08-15-2007, 09:46 PM
hmm i been hearing this for the last 7 years... wonder if there is any similarities between bush policies and the fall of Rome?

By Jeremy Grant in Washington

Published: August 14 2007 00:06 | Last updated: August 14 2007 00:06

The US government is on a ‘burning platform’ of unsustainable policies and practices with fiscal deficits, chronic healthcare underfunding, immigration and overseas military commitments threatening a crisis if action is not taken soon, the country’s top government inspector has warned.

David Walker, comptroller general of the US, issued the unusually downbeat assessment of his country’s future in a report that lays out what he called “chilling long-term simulations”.

These include “dramatic” tax rises, slashed government services and the large-scale dumping by foreign governments of holdings of US debt.

Drawing parallels with the end of the Roman empire, Mr Walker warned there were “striking similarities” between America’s current situation and the factors that brought down Rome, including “declining moral values and political civility at home, an over-confident and over-extended military in foreign lands and fiscal irresponsibility by the central government”.

“Sound familiar?” Mr Walker said. “In my view, it’s time to learn from history and take steps to ensure the American Republic is the first to stand the test of time.”

Mr Walker’s views carry weight because he is a non-partisan figure in charge of the Government Accountability Office, often described as the investigative arm of the US Congress.

While most of its studies are commissioned by legislators, about 10 per cent – such as the one containing his latest warnings – are initiated by the comptroller general himself.

In an interview with the Financial Times, Mr Walker said he had mentioned some of the issues before but now wanted to “turn up the volume”. Some of them were too sensitive for others in government to “have their name associated with”.

“I’m trying to sound an alarm and issue a wake-up call,” he said. “As comptroller general I’ve got an ability to look longer-range and take on issues that others may be hesitant, and in many cases may not be in a position, to take on.

“One of the concerns is obviously we are a great country but we face major sustainability challenges that we are not taking seriously enough,” said Mr Walker, who was appointed during the Clinton administration to the post, which carries a 15-year term.

The fiscal imbalance meant the US was “on a path toward an explosion of debt”.

“With the looming retirement of baby boomers, spiralling healthcare costs, plummeting savings rates and increasing reliance on foreign lenders, we face unprecedented fiscal risks,” said Mr Walker, a former senior executive at PwC auditing firm.

Current US policy on education, energy, the environment, immigration and Iraq also was on an “unsustainable path”.

“Our very prosperity is placing greater demands on our physical infrastructure. Billions of dollars will be needed to modernise everything from highways and airports to water and sewage systems. The recent bridge collapse in Minneapolis was a sobering wake-up call.”

Mr Walker said he would offer to brief the would-be presidential candidates next spring.

“They need to make fiscal responsibility and inter-generational equity one of their top priorities. If they do, I think we have a chance to turn this around but if they don’t, I think the risk of a serious crisis rises considerably”.

Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2007

cushioncrawler
08-16-2007, 05:58 PM
nAZ -- This iz mostly bullkrap. Here we have (i think) a bible bashing economist -- but we shoodnt be surprized, the bible iz dogma, and USA economics iz dogma, a marriage made in heaven.

"Declining Moral Values" iz a meaningless phraze, but it smells to me like someone pushing the bible etc. So, obviously the guys who over-ran Rome must have had "Inclining Moral Values". And, Rome woz christian, catholic aktually (woz it called catholic in doze dayz??), and Rome had i think virtually the same bible we have today, latin verzion i suppoze (not sure).

Economic problems brort down Rome. Economist in the USA (and the NYT) are trained to not-see and not-understand, so the real answer re the real economic problems in the fall of Rome will be difficult to find amongst the bullkrap. Rome woz weakened by a terrible tax system which reduced production. madMac.

Drop1
08-17-2007, 08:36 PM
Mac,The emperor Constantine called a Council of Bishops,in about 326A.D,to take the twenty eight different versions of the Bible,and consolidate them in to one book,as the basis of Catholic Faith,all other religions having been outlawed by Constantine,the first Pagan to be converted to the Faith. He continued to pray to his Pagan Gods,and had his wife,and older son killed. There was still no agreement in the Church,that Jesus possessed de vine powers,equal to God,and this was a subject of debate in the Council. Under pressure from Constantine, Jesus was declared for the political reasons of Constantine,to be equal in all respects to God,and the Holy Trinity became a part of Catholic Faith. The Catholics today use a bible that is different than other Churches,and stake their claim to being the selected Church of Jesus on writings in the "Book of Mathew" I imagine you are a devout believer,and non Catholic,using the "King James" Bible of the Christians,a book published around 1611 A.D.,some seven hundred years after the birth of Jesus Christ,and almost as many translations. The early books of the Bible were written in Greek,Hebrew,and Latin. As you say,Rome fell for economic reasons. In my opinion,the Church is neither moral,or a voice for values. I hope the six hundred million dollar judgement against the Catholic diocese of Los Angeles,for sex by Priests with children, causes people to think twice,before having the kids bend over to pray.

cushioncrawler
08-18-2007, 02:22 AM
Yeah, churches stink. I just then had another read of Walker's krap......

........""Drawing parallels with the end of the Roman empire, Mr Walker warned there were “striking similarities” between America’s current situation and the factors that brought down Rome, including “declining moral values and political civility at home, an over-confident and over-extended military in foreign lands and fiscal irresponsibility by the central government”.

“Sound familiar?” Mr Walker said. “In my view, it’s time to learn from history and take steps to ensure the American Republic is the first to stand the test of time.”"".........

History haz shown us that USA economists will never "learn from history" -- damned idiots. madMac.

Drop1
08-18-2007, 08:57 PM
The man needs a enema,he is so full of crap. My morals will continue to decline,or ascend,depending on what is moral. Mac you ever drink long enough to ponder Truth over Faith? Well I have,and have come to the conclusion Truth is,and Faith is hoped for. Course Faith in the Biblical sense is a gift from God,if you have one. I think you should drop the pompous "learn from history,Mr Walker,and take up a good 160 proof rum. Nothing is so use full in the organization of the mind,other than the prospect of your immediate hanging.

cushioncrawler
08-18-2007, 10:06 PM
An oldendayz pommy poofta said -- "Faith iz an unshakeable beleef in something u know to be untrue".

"Truth?? -- True??" -- Hmmmmm -- The dictionary sez that truth iz something that iz beleeved. But, what u beleev iz uzually what u want to beleev. So, the truth iz what u want it to be. madMac.

Drop1
08-18-2007, 10:53 PM
If a flower is red,it is red no matter what I believe,and that is the truth. The friggin flower is red,and no amount of Faith will change the truth of that flower,just as a dead man is dead,its not a matter for speculation,the man is dead,and that is the truth of that man. If I borrow twenty dollars from a person,I owe twenty dollars to that person...Truth can be stated,demonstrated,and demanded.

wolfdancer
08-18-2007, 11:28 PM
Mac, we are so fortunate here in the states to have a President with a degree in history.
We're not so fortunate though with the kids....

web page (http://http://www.edreform.com/index.cfm?fuseAction=document&documentID=881)
"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
which is why history repeated itself with the reelection of GWB

Drop1
08-19-2007, 01:25 PM
I always liked those lines on learning from history,they are doubly meaning full for the victors....or are they

cushioncrawler
08-19-2007, 04:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Drop1:</font><hr> If a flower is red,it is red no matter what I believe,and that is the truth. The friggin flower is red,and no amount of Faith will change the truth of that flower,just as a dead man is dead,its not a matter for speculation,the man is dead,and that is the truth of that man. If I borrow twenty dollars from a person,I owe twenty dollars to that person...Truth can be stated, demonstrated,and demanded.<hr /></blockquote>Harry -- That remindz me of the story about the Scotsman who, seeing hiz dead mate in the cask with a red roze in the mates lapel, threw a cheque for $20 into the cask. The truth iz that hiz mate woz dead, and the roze woz red, but woz it $20 or not??? madMac.

eg8r
08-19-2007, 05:22 PM
[ QUOTE ]
"Truth?? -- True??" -- Hmmmmm -- The dictionary sez that truth iz something that iz beleeved. But, what u beleev iz uzually what u want to beleev. So, the truth iz what u want it to be. madMac <hr /></blockquote> That sounds like the same definition the left here use for "facts".

eg8r

cushioncrawler
08-19-2007, 05:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt; "Truth?? -- True??" -- Hmmmmm -- The dictionary sez that truth iz something that iz beleeved. But, what u beleev iz uzually what u want to beleev. So, the truth iz what u want it to be. madMac <hr /></blockquote> That sounds like the same definition the left here use for "facts". eg8r<hr /></blockquote>Yes, facts are made in a factory. Hmmmm -- In fact i reckon that the whitehouse might be the biggest factory around. madMac.

Drop1
08-19-2007, 10:38 PM
Mac,if you have a psychopathic need to out me,the stage is all yours,along with the accolades. The story of the check is an old joke,and it was a Jew that wrote the check,in the joke. The unabridged Random House dictionary has thirteen replies for truth. The word can be a noun,or an adjective modifying a verb. From your response,I can see you are into games,and I'm not,on this subject. The fifth response is "actuality of actual existence". If you have any curiosity,you can read the other twelve on your own time.

cushioncrawler
08-20-2007, 12:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Drop1:</font><hr> Mac,if you have a psychopathic need to out me,the stage is all yours,along with the accolades. The story of the check is an old joke,and it was a Jew that wrote the check,in the joke. The unabridged Random House dictionary has thirteen replies for truth. The word can be a noun,or an adjective modifying a verb. From your response,I can see you are into games,and I'm not,on this subject. The fifth response is "actuality of actual existence". If you have any curiosity,you can read the other twelve on your own time.<hr /></blockquote>Harry -- This all reminds me that (in a mathematical sense) nothing can be prooven, hence things like "truth" and "fact" can never be certain. All we need do iz to look at the english language, it kumz from a dictionary. So, we look at a dictionary, and we find that each word iz defined by other words. Then we kum to the realization that inevitably every word definition in every dictionary in every language iz circular, we allwayz kum back to that word or to some other word in that circle. Hencely, proof etc, or certainty, etc, are a mathematical phantom. Here i feel that i shood point out that maths iz really just another language (or a shorthand at least), based on other languages like english, and thusly maths duznt dezerve the special status that i inferred.

Regarding color (ie a red roze), in a sense this remindz me that science duznt really know what color iz. And, any seemingly impressive scientific attempt to explain anything allwayz reechez a "thing" that iz in itself not really known, eg in the case of color, apart from everything else, we dont really know what a photon iz, if there iz such a thing, and, if we dont really know what a color iz then how can we really argue about a red roze.

Therefore we karnt really have a very decisive or even a very meaningfull discussion or arguement etc about anything "worth" argueing about. If we can have a decisive arguement about something, then it must be something not worth argueing about. Sorry, but thats what it all boils down to.

Re that jew (or scotsman) at the funeral, i remember that he took out $100 worth of notes and coins, and dropped in a cheque for $120. madMac.

Drop1
08-20-2007, 07:57 AM
So Smokey, people with SARS,are not really sick,we know what color is,we know what math is,we know what HIV positive is,we know when we get fired,we know when someone is fishing,and you are right, You and I have no platform for agreement. Have a good day.

eg8r
08-20-2007, 11:22 AM
They just may be, but it is nice to see that someone recognizes the "facts" of the left for what they are.

eg8r

wolfdancer
08-20-2007, 01:03 PM
Mac, I like the metaphor....the WH as a facts factory.
AND.....it fits!!!!
Unless you are a dyed-in-the-wool,right winger, who has been fed and swallowed the "secret sauce"...you stand in both awe and disgust, at the lies, distortions, cover ups, etc....that emanate from the WH...I should say ...permeate
"Homeland Security"...another disambiguous term, under this admin. On 60 minutes last nite, there was a piece on the over $100 mil wasted by Homeland Security to upgrade the CG Fleet. the results so far...8 ships that were retrofitted, are now out of commission...and the reward for doing this...an even bigger contract to build 3 new ships...with a questionable hull design.
Maybe they can recover some of the money by putting both the 6 ships and the FEMA trailers up on Ebay for auction???
It won't matter much which party's candidate gets elected next....the irreversible damage to our security/economy/foreign relations policy/etc, has already been done....

Drop1
08-20-2007, 01:59 PM
Wolf,I find a lot of truth in what you say. My son,who is in education told me today,our students at the level one through six now rank 48th in the world. In geography Mexico came in first,and they don't know aah many things. I wonder how we did on sourcing.

Vapros
08-20-2007, 02:45 PM
You don't miss much, do you? With a few strokes on your keyboard you have proclaimed certain damage to be irreversible (how do you know??) and also issued a free pass to the next president, I suppose in case he/she turns out to be the representative of your chosen party. Neat, man. Preemptive.

DickLeonard
08-21-2007, 07:32 AM
Vapros this adm has appointed religious Whackos to run important Tasks. They have no business sense just their Bible, they are a good score for the religious con-men.

Case in example the missing 13 Billion lost in Iraq, the one in charge only qualifications was he graduated from Jerry Falwell College. Now everyday he has to get down on his knees and pray to God that he finds that money. He might be a graduate from one of the other Whacko Religious schools. This Adm finds it apppeals to their Religious Base to appoint graduates from their Colleges. They can always shuffle their mistakes in with all their own mistakes. GOD help us from God.####

The Catholic Collegess are not to be included on that list. A graduate of Notre Dame,Georgetown etc would be offended by any inclusion in that group.####

Gayle in MD
08-21-2007, 08:20 AM
If one is to be specific, our enemy, bin Laden, wanted to see us wasting blood and treasure in the Middle East, in a guerilla war, IOW, militarily unwinnable. Bush gave him his wish, and also gave our Saudi Arabian, and Iranian, "Friends" their wish, being in a position to weaken our country without leaving obvious fingerprints. Bush gave bin Laden a rallying cause, through his illegal occupation of Iraq, for oil, (Just as bin Laden had wqarned his followers the United States would do,) and expanded terrorists, and terrorism all over the world, destroyed America's reputation as a country that keeps it's word, and by using torture, along with other antiamerican activities, and showing incompetence, running up unprecedented debt, and looking the other way while we've been robbed by china, and occupied by Mexico, and cheap labor throughout his tenure. Bush did exactly as bin Laden and Iran wished. Republicans, gave him the blank check he needed to accomplish his many failures, and their voting base jumped on board through their evangelical desires to dictate to all others how they may live their personal lives, and to get their tax bribe, just as they did with Reagan, who also left the country economically weakened through his policies, hurting the cause of humane labor regulations, and lying about his foreign illegal policies, also breaking international agreements. Reagan hurt America's middle class, but also, made his rich friends, much richer, just as Bush has done.

A vote for Republicans, is a vote for fascism. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Gayle in MD
08-21-2007, 09:22 AM
<font color="red">A Vote For Republicans, is a Vote For Fascism. The death of Leona Helms brings memories of he famous statement, "Only the little people pay taxes." Some things never change....Republicans get in, middle class loses, rich get richer, deficits go up, and Democrats have to fix everything the fascists have done to the economy. Do we really STILL have to be told that trickel down doesn't work?

One thing is certain, a crook in the White House, increases crooked practices throughout Governmnet, and at the corporate level. The unspoken messages..."Whoopie, Republicans are back in, cheat all you want, nobodies going to care," and from the Government, to the Military Industrial Complex, to Wall Street, and the Corporate Fasciast Pigs, greed and corruption thrive. Some things never change.

A Vote For Republicans, Is A Vote For Fascism!</font color>

Vapros
08-21-2007, 10:24 AM
DL, are you quite certain this was a response to my post? It came across more like flinging a handful of gravel in the direction of your target.

wolfdancer
08-21-2007, 01:40 PM
I've never voted Republican, but the party has always been a healthy alternative to our Democratic party...They both tended to rein in the excesses of their opponents. Somewhat like a sailboat tacking into the wind...port for the Dems, starboard for the GOP....but we moved straight ahead. This group though has a stranglehold on the entire elected Republican Representatives ....and it's a dangerous course that they are steering...esp with Captain Smith (Titanic) at the helm in the guise of GWB.
I look for a party reform after they are beaten badly in the next elections....a more moderate leadership will emerge, and as a catharsis,they will publicly denounce the Bush Fascist group.
Unfortunately, we won't be able to string him up "by the gonads" and put him on display like Mossolini

wolfdancer
08-21-2007, 01:50 PM
The Catholic Colleges are not to be included on that list. A graduate of Notre Dame,Georgetown etc would be offended by any inclusion in that group.####
AND, maybe too intelligent to be manipulated.....
Which degree has more prestige:
one from
Jerry U
Liberty U
U of Phoenix...online
?????
Personally I think a good alternative to any of the above...a good trade school...like welding...At least then you would have the satisfaction of knowing that you were qualified for the job...
Even the entry level jobs for the other grads...already meets the stated end point of the Peter Principle.....jmho

moblsv
08-21-2007, 02:56 PM
Why would we want to start now. This country was established during the Enlightenment based on the questioning of old views such as the role of divinity in our rulers. Studying Rome and the great philosophies was in vogue and the such great works as Gibbon's The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire were being written and studied.

It has taken us 250 years to forget all that and convince the citizens of the country that we were created as a Christian Nation. Learning the lessons of History would undermine all of that 'progress'.

Gayle in MD
08-22-2007, 01:41 PM
Fabulous post! Reminds me of Bush's illogical references to Vietnam made today to the VFW's. He's actually using the Vietnam War now, to justify his act of jumping into yet another quagmire. Par for the course, repeat a lie over and over, and this non reading population will suck it right up. I suppose, according to Bush, nothing will do, save another fifty-eight thousand dead American troops, in order to keep them from coming over here. He's already spent way more than the two billion that was wasted in Vietnam. What a crock! The propaganda just gets worst, the more he tries to justify and deny this mess. One day he's bashing Maliki, and the next he's defending him. The lyme dissease must be flaring up again, causing the usual mental confusion.

The obvious signs of fascism are all around us, from our loss of privacy and freedom, to the repetative mantras of deception. Yet, still, I am baffled at the number of Americans who are willing to deny what is happening before their very eyes. We're in big trouble in this country, and we owe it all to the diseases of apathy, and ignorance, which is displayed in spades on this forum, with all the same arrogance we see coming straight out of the White House, from Cheney, Rove, Gonzales and Bush.

A Vote For Republicans Is A Vote For Fascism.

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
08-22-2007, 01:53 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I look for a party reform after they are beaten badly in the next elections....a more moderate leadership will emerge, and as a catharsis,they will publicly denounce the Bush Fascist group.
<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red">Unfortunately, I don't think the former conservative base of the Republican Party has survived the onslaught from the Neocons. Many have left the party for the Independent Party, and the broad base from the nutty religious right, is still right in line with the fascists, as usual. As for what is to become of Little Bushy, I believe he'll finally be in a situation where he can't control every single thing that happens, and hence, will have to finally face all the boo's and disgust that the vast majority of Americans have for him. I surely don't think he'll be found out and about much, he'll be too busy counting all the fascist money from the Corporate pigs he's been representing throughout his tenure. He will finally have to face the truth, as it will be everywhere, uncensored at last. Historians will rank him on the bottom, the very worst, ever. He won't be able to jump free of the overwhelming concensus. </font color>

Gayle in Md.