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phil in sofla
07-26-2002, 02:31 PM
My first cue was a 18.5 oz. Dufferin cut into a two piece. I didn't chose that weight, only choosing the cue since it was available at a reasonable price ($35 with a case, as I recall) at the right time.

I decided to go heavier, to see if it would give me more action naturally on the ball, and got a 20.5 oz. for my next (and current) cue, which I've been playing with now for maybe 4 years. Again, I went with what was available for sale without much effort (guys selling their cues in the PH), not exactly picking a personal considered choice, just trying the couple that were available that had the weight I was looking at. (A Helmstedter, to which I added a Predator shaft about 20 months ago).

I'm definitely sold on the Predator shaft, so whatever I get I'll keep that aspect intact. However, I actually have a stroke relative to before when I didn't and was looking for the cue to do it for me, and I'm thinking of maybe a 19. Obviously I should try before I buy, but what do you think are the pros/cons of the lighter cue compared to the heavier cues?

Kato
07-26-2002, 02:46 PM
Phil, I suppose I'm as qualified to answer this as well as anyone so here goes. You might as well hit with some lighter cues, my Predator is around 19.1 oz I'll let you hit some balls with it whenever. You should hit with a bunch of cues though to get the feeling of what you want. I don't know how many people we know that play with Predator on various butts though. I'm assuming the hit/balance will change immediately after replacing the shaft.

Kato~~~Phil's buddy R.J.

bluewolf
07-26-2002, 03:21 PM
i have a 19.5 but i shoot too slow with it. when i use a lighter stick the balls go faster.at least that is the way it seems.

07-26-2002, 03:33 PM
i started out with a 20.5 and shot with it for 25 or so years. then i went to a 19 and liked that better. about a year ago i took the weight bolt out of my pred. spw which brings it down to, i think, 18.0 which i like a lot. i don't need the ballast to keep my stroke straight and i think it is easier to do finesse shots with less weight. i just got 2 more pred spw cues last night at league and they are both 18.0.

my big question now is whether to dump the last of my pechauers. with the bolt out it weighs in at maybe 16 or 17 and with a buffalo hard it makes a great break cue.

dan...you can never have too many spw's.

Rod
07-26-2002, 04:11 PM
Over all for most men 19 oz is a good starting point. I say men because most women I know are at 19 oz or lighter. What you can do is take weight out of a heavier cue in most cases. You could experiment with your cue you now own. I will say anytime you change weight, you need to give it a little time to adjust. Weight pins are pretty cheap. Weigh the cue, then weigh the pin. To me, even 1/4 oz either way is a big change. You need to have the best of both worlds, not to heavy or to light. That will help your overall game. I think changing weight by no more than 1/2 oz at a time will give you a better idea of what works best for your game/stroke. It can be fine tuned to 1/4 oz or less. To me its just a question of feel, either it is to heavy, too light, or just right. Too heavy and it is harder to swing and to light it is to easy. Either one will cause problems with speed and control. There is a weight between thats just right for you.

socrates
07-26-2002, 08:33 PM
Until a consistent stroke is developed IMO i believe the heavier cue say 19.75 helps one sense the entire length of the cue better and allows one to develop a consistent stroke quicker.

As the stroke becomes more consistent I believe there is a lot of merit to playing with something more in the 18.75 to 19.00 range.

An often over looked aspect is the balance of the cue. A butt heavy or top heavy cue provide different sensations to the user.

I teach a weather vane system for stance and alignment. (I refer to this as natural alignment similar to natural golf) I find this system does not work with a top heavy cue nor with a butt heavy cue. I like to be able to hold the cue about 1" behind the wrap and have it balanced basically level when my arm is hanging loosely at my side and my right hand is approximately at my right hip.

Sorry probabally more that you asked for but its my opinion for what its worth.

TonyM
07-26-2002, 10:50 PM
There is an argument that says that the cue weight should be a compromise between inertia for potting (the extra weight keeps the cue on line) and energy transfer efficiency for speed control.

As long as a cue is heavier than the cue ball, the cue ball speed after collision will be greater than the cue stick speed before collision. With no allowance for energy losses, a 6 ounce cue (for a 6 ounce cueball)would have a 100 % energy transfer efficiency. In other words, a cue stick speed of 10 mph, would result in a cue ball speed of 10 mph.

A cue stick weight of 18.0 ounces (or 3 times the cue ball weight) would result in a cue ball speed after collision of 1.5 times the cue stick speed. Thus the energy transfer efficiency would be 150% ( this is known as the coefficient of restitution, or COR to the science types). In reality, due to energy losses (from the tip, joint etc.) the actual energy transfer efficiency for an 18.0 ounce cue would be more like 1.3, not 1.5.

What all this means is that to get an accurate relationship between the stick speed and the cue ball speed, you want the lightest cue possible.

However there are two drawbacks to this approach:

1) a light cue has less inertia than a heavier cue, and thus is more difficult to keep on line.
2) a light cue will produce less cueball speed for a given stick speed.

The second point is quite interesting. Everyone has an ideal range of cue speeds within which they are the most accurate. The ideal cue weight should allow the majority of shots to be accomplished while staying within this range of cue speeds. Thus people who are most accurate at a higher cue speed should use a light cue, while those that are more accurate with a slower cue speed might benefit from a heavier cue.

Note that 3C cues are actually very light when compared to the cue ball mass (3C balls are much heavier than pool balls). Thus the enrgy transfer efficiency of a 3C cue is quite a bit lower than a pool cue. The reasons for this is that 3C is a pure position game (no potting!) and speed control is paramount. Another reason is that they use faster cloth than what would be typical for pool.

So if position play is a major part of the game that you play, you might benefit from a lighter cue.

Russian Billiard cues on the other hand are very heavy (25 to 27 ounces is typical!). They use a very heavy ball, but the ratio of cue weight to ball weight is still much higher than pool.

The reason for this is because Russian Billiards puts the emphasis on potting, not position play. The pockets are very small (smaller than a Snooker pocket, for a ball that is larger than a carom ball!) and potting is very hard.

So the cues are maximized for high inertia. This keeps the cue on line better and produces a straighter stroke.

So if potting is the main focus of your game, then you might benefit from a heavier cue.

Table conditions have an influence as well. Very fast cloth favours a slightly lighter cue to tone down some of the excess cue ball speed. While very slow napped cloth favours a heavier cue.

This is one of the reasons why the average cue weight on the pro tour has dropped about 1.0 to 2.0 ounces over the last 30 years (faster cloth and better balls).

It has been suggested that as your stroke accuracy improves, you can tolerate a decrease in cue weight to improve your speed control.

But each player must experiment with their own game to find the best compromise that works for them.

Getting a cue with the capability to adjust the weight is a good idea.

I hope that this helps.

Regards,

Tony

07-27-2002, 12:34 AM
Well, my Predator 2 weighs in at a whopping 16.33 oz. (No mean engineering feat, that) and I LOVE it. I can play all day and night and never feel my muscles protest. Lighter is better, IMO!

SPetty
07-27-2002, 06:33 AM
Hi hdj,

Did you ever get your leather wrapped Predator P2? Wasn't that on your wish list with the cue that league owed you, or something like that? Or did you have to "settle" for two SPWs?

phil in sofla
07-27-2002, 11:10 AM
...my hitting partner switched cues in the middle of his inning, and afterwards, I asked him why he had done that.

He's a little older than me, but has been playing maybe 15 years longer, and knows a thing or two. He said he had a long shot, and wanted to use his heavier cue, because it stayed on the line better, thus signalling agreement with Tony and others on the thread.

Interesting that we are only talking 5% changes (1 oz. or less compared to about 20 ozs.), or considerably less than that, if we're talking 1/2 and 1/4 oz. variations.

Just realized that it may well be possible to change out the weight bolt in my current cue and get a lighter weight, but keeping everything else about the cue constant, and I'm thinking that is a way to proceed.

07-27-2002, 11:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SPetty:</font><hr> Hi hdj,

Did you ever get your leather wrapped Predator P2? Wasn't that on your wish list with the cue that league owed you, or something like that? Or did you have to "settle" for two SPWs?
<hr></blockquote>

actually, a playing partner got a p2 and i decided i just don't like it. i've really gotten to like not having a wrap and having the wood to wood joint.

one note, the spw is now shipping with very hard lepro tips. i didn't know lepro made 'em that hard. i expect to have 'em replaced with talisman softs by sundown.

dan

Karatemom
07-27-2002, 12:23 PM
Chris took out the weight bolt in my McDermott, made it from a 19.5 to a 18 oz. It seems to work better for me. It seems alot easier to do it that way for the time being just to figure out what works best. IMO

Heide

07-27-2002, 12:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TonyM:</font><hr> There is an argument that says that the cue weight should be a compromise between inertia for potting (the extra weight keeps the cue on line) and energy transfer efficiency for speed control.Regards,

Tony <hr></blockquote>

excellent analysis. kinda clarifies what i had been thinking on the subject.

thanks

dan

phil in sofla
07-27-2002, 04:28 PM
I didn't mention but will now, that I'm not a small person. Does that make any difference in what has been said on this subject so far?

SPetty
07-27-2002, 05:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: houstondan:</font><hr> actually, a playing partner got a p2 and i decided i just don't like it. i've really gotten to like not having a wrap and having the wood to wood joint.

one note, the spw is now shipping with very hard lepro tips. i didn't know lepro made 'em that hard. i expect to have 'em replaced with talisman softs by sundown.<hr></blockquote>Hi hdj,

Yeah, but, doesn't the P2 also come with an option of no wrap? But, of course, it doesn't come with a wood to wood joint, right?

When I visited Hawley's and tried out the SPW vs the SPJ, I liked the balance of the SPJ better, but I like the hit of the SPW better!

As you may have read, I am enjoying my Talisman soft tip...

Rod
07-27-2002, 08:03 PM
Quote Phil, Just realized that it may well be possible to change out the weight bolt in my current cue and get a lighter weight, but keeping everything else about the cue constant, and I'm thinking that is a way to proceed."

Phil, I think it is the best way. I think what one needs to know if they "feel" their cue is light or heavy. From there you can add or subtract. 1 oz is a lot of weight, but you could start there. I wrote on this some time ago but I changed mine from to heavy. I took out a total of 1/2 oz in three steps. Each time I played with the cue for at least a week. Every time I played I made myself aware if the cue felt to heavy. After three times I got it perfect for me. I should say on the 4th change it was a little light.
One day it may feel a touch heavy or light but that is due to small changes in my body, for lack of better words.

A friend made me a couple of weight pins/bolts, and threaded the end for the screw that holds on the rubber bumper. I modified 1 by cutting off threads to get the right weight. The last thread had to be smoothed using a small file as not to damage the wood threads.
Many pins are 3/8 x 16 and can be bought at a hardware store, It could be a bolt or countersunk screw.

Kato
07-27-2002, 08:46 PM
Bluewolf, lighter cue, higher tip speed with the same force of stroke. Did I say that right?

Kato

TonyM
07-27-2002, 11:53 PM
The only difference that your size would make is at the top end of your stroke speed range. A small person might not be able to swing a heavy cue as fast as a bigger, stronger person. Actually, it is not the top end speed, but rather the accelration that is required. But this effect is probably not that large. Many very small players can handle a heavy cue just fine.

But keep in mind that some players find a heavy cue tiring after a while. This alone might outweight any possible benefits to a heavier cue such as greater inertia. If your arm gets tired, it might be harder to keep on line.

Tony

07-27-2002, 11:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TonyM:</font><hr> The only difference that your size would make is at the top end of your stroke speed range. A small person might not be able to swing a heavy cue as fast as a bigger, stronger person. Actually, it is not the top end speed, but rather the accelration that is required. But this effect is probably not that large. Many very small players can handle a heavy cue just fine.

But keep in mind that some players find a heavy cue tiring after a while. This alone might outweight any possible benefits to a heavier cue such as greater inertia. If your arm gets tired, it might be harder to keep on line.

Tony <hr></blockquote>

i was thinking that the only variable that mattered in the case of the big &amp; tall (or small &amp; short) was length. i think really tall players are more comfortable with longer stix and vice versa. seems the overall porportion of cue to height should not get too far out of whack. when compared to "normal".

dan...or not.

TonyM
07-28-2002, 12:02 AM
"Bluewolf, lighter cue, higher tip speed with the same force of stroke. Did I say that right?"

I think that you are suggesting that it takes less energy to accelerate a lighter cue than a heavier cue correct? Well yes I think that this is true. So for a given amount of energy expended to accelerate the cue with your arm, the lighter cue will end up going faster.

This is not really a factor for soft to medium stroke speeds, but can become a factor with the faster stroke speeds. But keep in mind that for the same stick speed, the lighter cue will produce a bit less cue ball speed. So you actually have to swing a lighter cue faster than the heavier cue in the first place. At some point the two forces required can be equal.

Ever try and play with a really light stick (like 12 ounces or less)? You find that you really have to belt the ball to get it go anywhere. A heavier cue actually requires less energy to generate the same cueball speed in that special case of very light cues. An a slower stroke is generally more controllable.

Tony

cheesemouse
07-28-2002, 06:46 AM
Here is a suggestion for those that don't have the option of changing the weight and balance point of their cues easily...If your a golfer you will know what I'm talking about.
Most advanced golfers will tweak the balance and weight distrubution of the club heads with self-adhesive 'lead tape'. One can buy a pack of this tape at most well equipt golf shops. It comes in strips or pre-cut lengths. I've experimented with this tape on my playing and break cues. You can place the weight anywhere on your butt[ that's cue butt] and get some immediate feed back without to much hassle; just make sure the area that you place the tape is clean of body oils...hit a few then move the tape hit a few more... the difference in the hit is quickly noticed.

07-28-2002, 09:40 AM
Tony:

Found your remarks very interesting.

My experience is consistent with your analysis. I have a slow stroke and play best with fairly hefty cues. When I'm playing straight pool, I break and shoot with the same 19 oz. stick. When I'm playing 8-ball, I break with a 20.5 oz. stick for accuracy and increased power--then I go to the lighter cue for the fine work.

--XXX--

DEADSTOKE32
07-28-2002, 08:44 PM
I HAD A B/J CUE THAT WAS 17oz .BUT WHEN U WEIGHT ABOUT 265LBS. IT JUST DON'T WORK GOOD FOR ME SO NOW I HAVE A 19oz AND I LOVE IT LESS POWER ON MY PART AND MORE OF A SOLID HIT FROM THE CENTER OF THE TABLE ..
BUT IF IT HIT'S STIFF THEN THAT IS WHAT YOU LOOK FOR..
AND 13M SHAFT HELP'S 2....
GOOD LUCK..

Doctor_D
07-29-2002, 09:44 AM
Good morning:

I have recently switched to a 19oz playing cue from a 20oz. Subsequently, I removed the weight bolt from my 19oz break cue as well. Overall, I prefer the lighter weight of both cues.

Dr. D.

Rod
07-29-2002, 10:07 AM
Dr. D. Sometimes cues will have a slight hollow sound without the bolt. Aluminum bolts are available and weigh almost nothing. It could make a difference in sound. Just for your info.

07-29-2002, 11:46 AM
Great theory. I might print this out and show this to my friends who play. I'm 5'11" and weight 230lbs. I work out and am pretty much a big guy.....but my friends are shocked to see my play with my 17.75 oz Huelber. They can't understand why I don't play with anything heavier. I tell them that for me 18 oz. is the limit. I can't explain why, but I have a smooth slow stroke, and the lighter cues seem to work for me.

LC3
07-30-2002, 12:19 PM
I had a little revelation about cue weight the other day. A guy I was playing with wanted to check out my cue, so we swapped for a game.

My cue: Jacoby, 19.5 oz, 3/8 x 10
His cue: Mottey, 19.9 oz, stainless steel joint

I figured his cue would hit like a log compared to mine, but it was just the opposite. His cue actually felt lighter than mine, and it had a more nimble hit. His shaft seemed a little thinner than mine which would account for the difference in hit, but I still couldn't understand why his cue felt lighter. It must have to do with the balance. Jacoby puts weights at three points in the butt, and the shaft has a 10" taper. Having the weight distributed along the cue like this makes it feel a little heavier in the hand, but it strokes like it's on rails. If I had it to do again, I'd probably go for a 19 oz Jacoby because of the way it's balanced. I'm not sure how Mottey balances his cues, but it seemed that the cue wasn't even there, leaving only the position of the tip on my mind. If I were to get a Mottey, it would be 20 oz.