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Kutter
08-29-2007, 11:45 AM
The tip size I use is 12mm. I have found that scuffers, scrapers and tip maintenance in general are for generic sizes. None seem to be designed for set size of a tip. Are any of you aware of size specific tip tools?

BLACKHEART
08-29-2007, 11:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Kutter:</font><hr> The tip size I use is 12mm. I have found that scuffers, scrapers and tip maintenance in general are for generic sizes. None seem to be designed for set size of a tip. Are any of you aware of size specific tip tools? <hr /></blockquote>

A tapper, shaper or tip pic can be used with ANY sized tip. A dime sized tip shaper, will shape a dime's radius onto a 14mm or a 11mm tip. I don't know where you got your information. Help me understand, by telling me what you are using &amp; how it didn't work...JER

Kutter
08-29-2007, 11:13 PM
I didn't THINK I was confused, but now I wonder. OK, tip I am using is 12MM at the base. I am wanting to shape the tip correctly. However, after using several shapers, it appears they shape well for 13 or perhaps larger, but on a 12 they seem to "flatten" the tip too much. The shaper is basically in the shape of an inverted dome, correct? When placing a dome on a smaller object, the part of the dome touching the object is flatter than if the object were almost the size of the dome. Ok, I admit, I am not well versed or able to explain myself to my own satisfaction. Thus, I doubt I am doing a very well job for others. Let me try with what I have in front of me. I take a lid off a jar of peanut butter and use it to draw a semi-circle. That will be the shaper. I take a soda bottle and place it in that semi-circle, touching the innermost edge. I trace the bottles round shape in that position. The bottle lets say is a large tip. The tracing will almost fill the semi-circle. I then remove the bottle cap and repeat using it. We will call it the smaller tip. Notice how the original shaper has a flatter edge on the smaller tip than it does no the larger tip? That is the problem I wish to resolve. The only way I see to make a correct shape on the tip, is to have a "dome" designed for the size tip I am using.
I certainly hope I didn't offend anyone by insulting their knowledge of geometry, I simply do not know how else to describe it.

This applies not only to shapers, but to other tip maintenance tools. For a proper fit when installing a new tip, wouldn't it work better if the part of the tool that holds the tip in place for drying, was sized to the correct tip diameter? I realize some trimming most alway will be required, but I am speaking as in general.

Deeman3
08-30-2007, 01:25 PM
It appears you are trying to achieve a perfect hemisphere in the finish of the tip. That is not needed and will probably, considering a 12 mm tip, give you some control problems as well. If you want/think you need a radius the size of a dime, then just use the dime sized shaper. It will finsih a little flatter than a dime but that's o.k. Unless you are having trouble putting spin on the ball, I'd probably go with the nickle profile. It's a lot easier to control and don't worry that it does not finish into a perfect tangent with the tip edge. That will not matter. The profile will not actually lool like the full half a dime or nickle, it will just look like about 70% or so of that.

Kutter
08-30-2007, 10:54 PM
Thanks. I guess I was assuming that the shape would be make a bigger difference then it apparently does.

SpiderMan
09-11-2007, 02:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Kutter:</font><hr> I didn't THINK I was confused, but now I wonder. OK, tip I am using is 12MM at the base. I am wanting to shape the tip correctly. However, after using several shapers, it appears they shape well for 13 or perhaps larger, but on a 12 they seem to "flatten" the tip too much. The shaper is basically in the shape of an inverted dome, correct? When placing a dome on a smaller object, the part of the dome touching the object is flatter than if the object were almost the size of the dome. Ok, I admit, I am not well versed or able to explain myself to my own satisfaction. Thus, I doubt I am doing a very well job for others. Let me try with what I have in front of me. I take a lid off a jar of peanut butter and use it to draw a semi-circle. That will be the shaper. I take a soda bottle and place it in that semi-circle, touching the innermost edge. I trace the bottles round shape in that position. The bottle lets say is a large tip. The tracing will almost fill the semi-circle. I then remove the bottle cap and repeat using it. We will call it the smaller tip. Notice how the original shaper has a flatter edge on the smaller tip than it does no the larger tip? That is the problem I wish to resolve. The only way I see to make a correct shape on the tip, is to have a "dome" designed for the size tip I am using.
I certainly hope I didn't offend anyone by insulting their knowledge of geometry, I simply do not know how else to describe it.

This applies not only to shapers, but to other tip maintenance tools. For a proper fit when installing a new tip, wouldn't it work better if the part of the tool that holds the tip in place for drying, was sized to the correct tip diameter? I realize some trimming most alway will be required, but I am speaking as in general. <hr /></blockquote>

It sounds as if the shaper you are using may be poorly designed. Perhaps rather than a constant-radius curvature, the "inverted dome" is actually flatter at the bottom?

Obviously, if the "inverted dome" is of constant radius, then it will impart that radius to any size tip. You would even get the same result if you did not go straight in to the bottom of the shaper.

On the other hand, it is possible that your shaper is OK, but the same curvature "looks flatter" on the small-diameter tip because it doesn't take down as much of the sidewalls.

SpiderMan

Kutter
09-15-2007, 09:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>
On the other hand, it is possible that your shaper is OK, but the same curvature "looks flatter" on the small-diameter tip because it doesn't take down as much of the sidewalls.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>
I got a feeling that you hit the nail right there. I think that was what Deeman was trying to say, also. I just didn't quite understand.
Thanks
Kutter

Snapshot9
09-17-2007, 07:01 AM
Most tip shapers are inadequate for shaping a tip like it is suppose to be shaped. And scuffers chew up the top of the tip leaving extraneous leather legs sticking out.

An area they ALL are deficient on is the sidewall. The top of the sidewall is suppose to be a 'flat' (straight) 45 degree angle to the curved top of the tip (and 45 degrees to the flat side of the sidewall). The various tools out there make that 45 degree flat part into a curve which affects your english on the cue ball, especially draw shots in particular.

I am old school, and when I learned tip maintenance, the ONLY thing you used was sandpaper, and you shape it by hand.
If, 10 minutes of your time is too much for you to spend on shaping your tip, then you deserve to get the tip you get with those tools. Before I go any further, most cuemakers and repairs will fix a tip like it should be.

I use 220 sandpaper to initially shape it, and use 80 grit
to put a finish on it. I just hold the sandpaper in my hand how I was taught, but you can use a piece of wood with the sandpaper around it for straight lines that the tip should have. (sidewalls and the 45 degree angle at the top of the sidewall).

I find your question (no offense) like a kid who can't make change unless the cash register tells him how much.

SPetty
09-17-2007, 04:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Snapshot9:</font><hr> The top of the sidewall is suppose to be a 'flat' (straight) 45 degree angle to the curved top of the tip (and 45 degrees to the flat side of the sidewall). The various tools out there make that 45 degree flat part into a curve which affects your english on the cue ball, especially draw shots in particular.<hr /></blockquote>This is interesting, and not something I recall ever hearing. If I'm understanding this correctly, you're saying that the leather tip should NOT be a round shape from sidewall to sidewall, but should be a little round part surrounded by a ring of flatness (at a 45 degree angle to the sidewall)?

If that's what I'm understanding, then how much of the tip is taken up by the flat part? Is there a sharp edge between the flat ring and the round top?

randyg
09-17-2007, 05:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Snapshot9:</font><hr> Most tip shapers are inadequate for shaping a tip like it is suppose to be shaped. And scuffers chew up the top of the tip leaving extraneous leather legs sticking out.

An area they ALL are deficient on is the sidewall. The top of the sidewall is suppose to be a 'flat' (straight) 45 degree angle to the curved top of the tip (and 45 degrees to the flat side of the sidewall). The various tools out there make that 45 degree flat part into a curve which affects your english on the cue ball, especially draw shots in particular.

I am old school, and when I learned tip maintenance, the ONLY thing you used was sandpaper, and you shape it by hand.
If, 10 minutes of your time is too much for you to spend on shaping your tip, then you deserve to get the tip you get with those tools. Before I go any further, most cuemakers and repairs will fix a tip like it should be.

I use 220 sandpaper to initially shape it, and use 80 grit
to put a finish on it. I just hold the sandpaper in my hand how I was taught, but you can use a piece of wood with the sandpaper around it for straight lines that the tip should have. (sidewalls and the 45 degree angle at the top of the sidewall).

I find your question (no offense) like a kid who can't make change unless the cash register tells him how much.
<hr /></blockquote>

Why would that tip work better on draw as opposed to any other spin shot???????.....SPF=randyg

1Time
09-18-2007, 12:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr>
Why would that tip work better on draw as opposed to any other spin shot???????.....SPF=randyg <hr /></blockquote>

Probably because more is potentially required of a tip with a draw shot than of any other application of spin.

Snapshot9
09-18-2007, 09:34 AM
The reason is guys: put 2 circles next to each other. How much of 1 is touching the other? Just a dot, a small dot, right? Now put a sheet of paper against a circle. How much of the paper is touching the circle.

The flat top 45 degree edge of the sidewall provides more contact with the cue ball, which improves your extreme english control and power. The cue ball becomes more responsive to those shots, especially draw shots because you are cueing real low and the 45 degree flat portion contacts with the cue ball instead of an opposing circular tip portion.

Some players try to get the same effect by playing with 'flat tips' almost and tilting the cue on draw shots to get more english, by having more of the flat portion make contact with the cue ball for 'grip'.

KellyStick
09-19-2007, 09:32 AM
Reading below that suggest the outer portion of the tip not be curved to increase tip to ball contact area is intriguing. Also, the choice between nickle radius and dime radius is intriguing. Does anyone have a profile sketch showing non-radiused edge? Also, can anyone describe the difference in control or otherwise in regard to Dime vs Nickel radius?

I use a poker to basically hard scuff the tip very lightly in areas where it might be flattened. Sometimes the edges sometimes the dead center a bit. Hard scuff is probably to harsh a word but... As opposed to the light scuff with the nickel shaper mentioned just below it is more agressive. More of a fluffing action... Then I scuff gently with my Nickel radius dome shaped sintered metal scuffer. I try not to remove much leather at all but rather try to restore the original radius and fluff the flattened areas. I lose some leather but very little.

I'm curious how a dime radius or flat outer edged tip might affect my shooting. My tip is probably standard sized, whatever that means. It's not a small one like I have seen on most snooker sticks. At least standard as far as the US goes if that means anything.

Deeman3
09-19-2007, 10:14 AM
In my opinion, the smaller the radius the more carefully you have be to hit center ball and the more spin the tip seems to impart. A good example is a snooker cue where it is quite easy to put unintended spin on the larger cue balls in pool.

dr_dave
09-19-2007, 10:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> In my opinion, the smaller the radius the more carefully you have be to hit center ball and the more spin the tip seems to impart.<hr /></blockquote>The size and shape of the tip has even more implications when one talks about "tips of English." See my July '06 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2006/july06.pdf).

Regards,
Dave

Deeman3
09-19-2007, 10:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> In my opinion, the smaller the radius the more carefully you have be to hit center ball and the more spin the tip seems to impart.<hr /></blockquote>The size and shape of the tip has even more implications when one talks about "tips of English." See my July '06 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2006/july06.pdf).

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Yes, but I promised to tone down my responses. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif </font color>

1Time
09-22-2007, 11:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Snapshot9:</font><hr>The flat top 45 degree edge of the sidewall provides more contact with the cue ball, which improves your extreme english control and power. <hr /></blockquote>

I'm not exactly sure what this means: "the flat top 45 degree edge of the sidewall". However, a tip that has a curve like a dime near its top edge where it meets side of the tip works best for me for draw shots.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote KellyStick:</font><hr>Also, can anyone describe the difference in control or otherwise in regard to Dime vs Nickel radius? <hr /></blockquote>

Controlling the CB and object ball in part requires control in the application of spin on the CB. The more tip you get on the CB throughout the stroke, the more spin you can safely apply. For this a dime radius on a 13mm tip works best for me.

However, between a nickel and a dime radius tip, I'm more successful at pocketing balls with a nickel radius 13mm tip. A dime radius on a 13mm tip seems to send the CB off line too much, just like using a smaller diameter tip does.

So to get the best results from both, I prefer shaping a tip to a dime radius and then smashing down the center of the tip so it's the shape of a nickel. This happens over time anyway from normal play. But instead of waiting I do this by holding the cue upside down and repeatedly tapping its tip on a smooth, hard floor while slowly spinning the cue around.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> In my opinion, the smaller the radius the more carefully you have be to hit center ball and the more spin the tip seems to impart. A good example is a snooker cue where it is quite easy to put unintended spin on the larger cue balls in pool. <hr /></blockquote>

This is true because a larger tip has more contact near center CB to help offset any applied spin.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> See my July '06 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2006/july06.pdf). <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks dr_dave. I got somewhat lost and disinterested in the text but I particularly enjoyed the nice diagrams.

dr_dave
09-23-2007, 04:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>See my July '06 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2006/july06.pdf).<hr /></blockquote>Thanks dr_dave. I got somewhat lost and disinterested in the text but I particularly enjoyed the nice diagrams.<hr /></blockquote>You're welcome. That's why I provide lots of illustrations and online videos with all of my stuff. Some people just like to look at the pictures. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Regards,
Dave

1Time
09-29-2007, 11:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> You're welcome. That's why I provide lots of illustrations and online videos with all of my stuff. Some people just like to look at the pictures. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

Yes, people like me just like to look at the pictures. And I say why bother reading the gobbily gook if an illustration or video will suffice. Of course I'm just kidding.