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Vapros
09-11-2007, 01:35 PM
Michael Kinsley, writing in Time Magazine this week about the candidates and their religious beliefs, made the following observation:

"Above all, we need to see some struggle. Precisely because all religious doctrines are hard to believe, believers and non-believers alike have an interest in how a candidate deals with religion's improbabilities."

Deeman3
09-11-2007, 02:13 PM
Vapros,

Where are the mainstream atheist candidates? I mean, if most of the country, as non-believers state, believes in secular politics, why are there no viable candidates speaking out or are they lying about their faith and why would an honest person do this?

Vapros
09-11-2007, 04:08 PM
Deeman, Kinsley goes on to say: "It will be amusing if Romney is done in by a fear of his religious values because, as near as we can tell, he has no values of any sort that he wouldn't happily abandon if they became a burden. But in politics, you are who you pretend to be."

This guy doesn't seem to like Romney, but his words could be applied to most politicians. And it answers your question about where the atheists might be. If you believe something unpopular, you should keep it to yourself or stay out of politics. It's a sales job - always has been. Tell 'em what they want to hear, at least until the voting is over.

You asked if the candidates might be lying about their faith, and why an honest person would do this. Probably they would not, but that's a whole 'nother subject. This thread is about politicians. Be well.

Gayle in MD
09-12-2007, 08:47 AM
Deeman,
I don't think there is really any exclusive connection between those who think the Separation Of church And State, should be maintained, for the benefit of both our Democratic principles, and our religious freedoms, and those who are non-believers. For example, Barry Goldwater was completely against the organization of religious sects for political, electoral power, but I don't think I've ever read that he was a non-believer. Some of the framers of our constitution, for example, were non-believers, some agnostic, and some devoutly religious, but they all agreed, that the separation, should be complete, and perfect, in their ultimate decisions for our Republic in order to protect, both.

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
09-12-2007, 09:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Deeman,
I don't think there is really any exclusive connection between those who think the Separation Of church And State, should be maintained, for the benefit of both our Democratic principles, and our religious freedoms, and those who are non-believers. For example, Barry Goldwater was completely against the organization of religious sects for political, electoral power, but I don't think I've ever read that he was a non-believer. Some of the framers of our constitution, for example, were non-believers, some agnostic, and some devoutly religious, but they all agreed, that the separation, should be complete, and perfect, in their ultimate decisions for our Republic in order to protect, both.

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Gayle,

I agree with the others you have mentioned that church and state should be separate, always have. I don't have an issue as long as all faiths are treated the same which they are not.

My question here was about the profession of one's faith or lack thereof in a political campaign. Of course, it should not matter but I don't see secular atheists in any part of the political campaign, left or right. My question was, "Why is this?" A candidate that feels religeon is foolish, witch doctor propaganda should certainly be able to say so or at least not have to pretend to be a believer. I'll admit that there are many in the right who profess faith but may not have it. However, it does seem politicians are mighty faithful if you look at, for instance, church attendance. Near the election; Hillary, Barack, Rudy, Fred Thompson, et al, show up for church every Sunday until the elections are over. I would not discount a candidate that was not a Christian, for instance, if their values otherwise were close enough to mine but were honest enough to admit it.

Could a non-believer be elected? Outside California?

All that being said, I don't believe we should fight to keep Christians out of school, for instance, and allow Muslims, Jews and witches to practice their faith. That's the main issue I have with the ACLU.</font color>

Gayle in MD
09-12-2007, 10:10 AM
Deeman,
I have really never met an atheist who would wish to exclude, or prohibit others, from enjoying their personal religious philosophy. Although I admire your ability to view a candidate by his, or her abilities to handle the demands of the office, even if they are not a believer, Most religious people, IMO, are not so broad minded as regards their combined religious, political goals.

I have no problem with organized religion in general, for example, only when it is used for the purpose of war, or as an organized political force in our elections. At that point, I believe that both, religion, and politics, are being corrupted.

In this country, I believe that there are many people who are actually agnostic, but when asked, wouldn't admit to their doubts. Being a christian, unfortunately, is precieved as some kind of assurance that one is honest, and generally a good person. Atheism, is percieved as proof that the atheist, is without high intentions, or goodness, obviously, because that is portrayed in most religious philosophies.

I can understand why candidates claim to be Christians, I just don't understand why people think that such a claim should insure competence, or any grand behavior. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Is the ACLU trying to keep christians out of Schools? Hadn't ever heard of anything like that!

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
09-12-2007, 10:14 AM
You are perfectly right here. What you say you believe is not important but what you do is. We can agree on that and that many who claim faith are just trying to look "trustworthy". Funny that someone would lie to show they are honest. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Gayle in MD
09-12-2007, 10:24 AM
You answered before I completed my edit, lol. Is the ACLU trying to keep Christians out of our schools?

The term, honest politican, seem to me to be an oxymoron, for sure.

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
09-12-2007, 10:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> You answered before I completed my edit, lol. Is the ACLU trying to keep Christians out of our schools? <font color="blue"> No but wearing a cross is not allowed while a Burka, a fez, a prayer rug are???</font color>

The term, honest politican, seem to me to be an oxymoron, for sure. <font color="blue"> Have to agree there as well, two agreements in one day, i need time off. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif </font color>

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

Gayle in MD
09-12-2007, 10:45 AM
You are kidding me! If that is true, that they have prohibited wearing a cross, that is absolutely outrageous! Very wrong, IMO.

As for the two agreements in one day, I hope you don't let that worry you, remember, once we listed our political views, and found that we really weren't that far apart in most issues.

To tell you the truth, I really don't thin either of us would fit into the extreme left, or right. I know I wouldn't give up my gun, and I don't think you would burn your bra. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Vapros
09-12-2007, 11:40 AM
Awright, you guys. Break it up.

Deeman3
09-12-2007, 12:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> I know I wouldn't give up my gun, and I don't think you would burn your bra. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Naw, might scortch my manly my chest hair. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif</font color>