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okinawa77
09-14-2007, 12:46 PM
I have been playing around with the slip stroke, and my first observation is that it allows you to follow through much more than a text book stroke.

And using the reverse slip stroke allows you to short stroke for snap or stun effects.

Currently, I can perform with greater effect using a text book stroke. So, I am initially thinking that the slip stroke is for players that have a difficult time getting enough follow through, and the reverse slip for consistent snap/stun effects.

But on second thought, I think if I practice the slip stroke more, then maybe I can get more action on the cue ball than with a text book stroke....which would be kind of crazy considering I already get ridiculous action already. I am one of very few players in my area that can shoot an object ball from about 9 feet and draw it straight back from 9 to 15 feet.

I will continue to work on my slip stroke, but if anyone has any information, opinions, and/or instructions on the slip stroke...I would like to hear it.

Another project of mine is to test the effects of twisting the cue during contact with the cue ball. I already know that it will change the track line after contacting the object ball and rails, but I plan to work on it more in depth.

Deeman3
09-14-2007, 12:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr> ...which would be kind of crazy considering I already get ridiculous action already. I am one of very few players in my area that can shoot an object ball from about 9 feet and draw it straight back from 9 to 15 feet. <font color="blue">

Wow, my table is only 9 feet in length and if I did that, the cue ball would run out the door. </font color>

I will continue to work on my slip stroke, but if anyone has any information, opinions, and/or instructions on the slip stroke...I would like to hear it.

Another project of mine is to test the effects of twisting the cue during contact with the cue ball. I already know that it will change the track line after contacting the object ball and rails, but I plan to work on it more in depth. <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> What? Twisting it like a screw or swerving it sideways like a real accomplished player? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color>

071838
09-14-2007, 01:32 PM
If I were in your position, Okinawa, I wouldn't practice the slip stroke at all. It represents (at least in the eyes of some extremely perceptive teachers) a subconscious attempt to recapture the inner rhythm you have for your actual stroke. As such, you should just let it happen and not try to force it. You would not believe how many world-class players never get into the technique at all. Good luck with your game. GF

dr_dave
09-14-2007, 01:44 PM
Why would you try and practice something unorthodox when you seem to have a great stroke already? Wouldn't your time be better spent trying to improve your already-good stroke? If you want to diagnose and make possible improvements in your current stroke, you might be interested in my stroke "best practices" document (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf).

Regards,
Dave


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr> I have been playing around with the slip stroke, and my first observation is that it allows you to follow through much more than a text book stroke.

And using the reverse slip stroke allows you to short stroke for snap or stun effects.

Currently, I can perform with greater effect using a text book stroke. So, I am initially thinking that the slip stroke is for players that have a difficult time getting enough follow through, and the reverse slip for consistent snap/stun effects.

But on second thought, I think if I practice the slip stroke more, then maybe I can get more action on the cue ball than with a text book stroke....which would be kind of crazy considering I already get ridiculous action already. I am one of very few players in my area that can shoot an object ball from about 9 feet and draw it straight back from 9 to 15 feet.

I will continue to work on my slip stroke, but if anyone has any information, opinions, and/or instructions on the slip stroke...I would like to hear it.

Another project of mine is to test the effects of twisting the cue during contact with the cue ball. I already know that it will change the track line after contacting the object ball and rails, but I plan to work on it more in depth. <hr /></blockquote>

Rackum_n_Crackum
09-14-2007, 02:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Why would you try and practice something unorthodox when you seem to have a great stroke already? Wouldn't your time be better spent trying to improve your already-good stroke? If you want to diagnose and make possible improvements in your current stroke, you might be interested in my stroke "best practices" document (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf).
Great read.... Thanks!!

Regards,
Dave


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr> I have been playing around with the slip stroke, and my first observation is that it allows you to follow through much more than a text book stroke.

And using the reverse slip stroke allows you to short stroke for snap or stun effects.

Currently, I can perform with greater effect using a text book stroke. So, I am initially thinking that the slip stroke is for players that have a difficult time getting enough follow through, and the reverse slip for consistent snap/stun effects.

But on second thought, I think if I practice the slip stroke more, then maybe I can get more action on the cue ball than with a text book stroke....which would be kind of crazy considering I already get ridiculous action already. I am one of very few players in my area that can shoot an object ball from about 9 feet and draw it straight back from 9 to 15 feet.

I will continue to work on my slip stroke, but if anyone has any information, opinions, and/or instructions on the slip stroke...I would like to hear it.

Another project of mine is to test the effects of twisting the cue during contact with the cue ball. I already know that it will change the track line after contacting the object ball and rails, but I plan to work on it more in depth. <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

okinawa77
09-14-2007, 03:09 PM
Dr. Dave,

I looked over your document, and my usual pre-shot routine is compliant with your document, but there is one thing I would add. During my pre-shot routine, I initially set up using what I call my baseline. My baseline involves dead center cue ball contact. Then, I imagine the cue ball to object ball contact point and the cue ball's track line after object ball contact. If I want the cue ball to move along a different track line, I determine the english needed and make a small adjustment to the object ball contact point to adjust for throw. And the distance between the cue ball and object ball is a considerable factor that must be adjusted for. If the distance is small, then the throw will be greater due to spin transfer.
I know a lot of players say that the spin transfer is to small to make an impact, but my experience has proven that statement wrong. I tend to stroke using long, smooth follow through, and I have found that spin transfer has a big impact on the object ball's track line. I tend to treat every shot like a masse shot. Whereas, if the cue's contact point is not dead center, then english will be applied, and must be account for.

The reason I test out different techniques is to increase my arsenal of tools/shots. But experimenting with different techniques does not affect my overall game. When I play league, I can always rely on my baseline (foundation). Whether I have taken a month or 2 off, or am trying a new stroke or new cue...it doesn't matter, because when I play competitively, I start with dead center cue ball, get used to the equipment (playing conditions), and start adding english and other techniques progressively.

I think the slip stroke may also be beneficial with reverse english shots. Although I can perform reverse english shots with a good follow through stroke, perhaps a well executed slip stroke may enable more consistent and powerful results.

I have noticed that I cannot do a slip stroke with my usual playing cue. Simply because my playing cue does not have a linen or leather wrap. It is solid, and the cue will not slide though my hand. Therefore, I use a cue with an Irish linen wrap, when testing the slip stroke.

I know many players do not use the slip stroke and that it is said that it is usually for rhythm players, but I want to try for myself to fully understand the pros and cons of this stroke. I think in some rare cases, this stroke may be advantageous. And my goal is to learn what cases that may be. And in the end, if this stroke does not prove to be useful, then I will not use it.

I played pool in Aurora, Colorado for about a year in 1998. I frequented a pool hall called Jason's Billiards. The owner was a retired pro. I met a bus driver there that showed me the reverse english shot and the slip stroke. I realize that these are considered old school (obsolete) techniques, but in times of boredom I like to test myself by trying these techniques and seeing if I can improve upon them.

As far as the twist stroke, I saw a local pool player doing it, and he is a strong pro level player. He is notorious for beating pros and money players for high stakes.

When you have an object ball sitting close to a corner pocket, it is rather easy to get cue ball position for your next shot by conventional means....but in some cases, you have obstacles that will not allow you the outcome you desire. I noticed using the twist stroke, that when the cue ball contacts the first and sometimes second rail, the track line is such that it cannot be obtained by the conventional means. As in 3 cushion, the english applied to the cue ball can have critical effects on the third rail contacted. This twist stroke will acheive different effects.

okinawa77
09-14-2007, 03:20 PM
Deeman,

I've seen a few players run out the door when I executed that long draw shot. In practicality, it is an illogical choice. Simply because the object ball is a sitting duck at the pocket, and it is much easier to use the rails to get back for cue ball position. But I use this draw shot to sharpen my stroke. Or if I am playing on a table that has horrific rails.

I suspect the slip stroke may have been a hustler technique. People watching, probably think a slip stroke shooter is easy money. I wonder if that was the entire basis of it's creation. To reel in the big fish.

randyg
09-14-2007, 03:36 PM
Must be why they have a "one-loss" bracket in tournaments....randyg

DeadCrab
09-14-2007, 03:37 PM
**************
I suspect the slip stroke may have been a hustler technique. People watching, probably think a slip stroke shooter is easy money. I wonder if that was the entire basis of it's creation. To reel in the big fish.
***************************

I'm kinda new at this, but I assumed the purpose of the slip stroke was to sell linen wraps

Deeman3
09-14-2007, 03:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr> Deeman,

I've seen a few players run out the door when I executed that long draw shot. In practicality, it is an illogical choice. Simply because the object ball is a sitting duck at the pocket, and it is much easier to use the rails to get back for cue ball position. But I use this draw shot to sharpen my stroke. Or if I am playing on a table that has horrific rails. <font color="blue">

You'll have to forgive me as I don't have such formatable skills. I always though of the long draw as an option when, perhaps, you were straight in and had few pocket cheating options. I am willing to learn. However, just for argument in your above response to Dave, you mentioned something about the cue ball track line impacted by english. I was not aware, with the exception of hitting a rail, that english had much effect on an object balls track line if english is defined as side. I thought, because of the changed impact point to compensate for throw, the angle of departure would be very slightly altered and you might move the cue ball a tad that way but had no idea that this track line was impacted to any great degree. Please tell me more. </font color>

I suspect the slip stroke may have been a hustler technique. People watching, probably think a slip stroke shooter is easy money. I wonder if that was the entire basis of it's creation. To reel in the big fish. <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> My guess, is that the few successful practiioners I am aware of, Jimmy Moore, for instance, liked it, had a natural gift at it and as GF says, may have compnsated for their not finishing the stroke. If, on the other hand, your hunch is correct, I think it worked quite well at "reeling them in". I think you may be reeling me in right about now. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Where did you say you play?</font color>

dr_dave
09-14-2007, 04:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr> Dr. Dave,

I looked over your document, and my usual pre-shot routine is compliant with your document, but there is one thing I would add. During my pre-shot routine, I initially set up using what I call my baseline. My baseline involves dead center cue ball contact. Then, I imagine the cue ball to object ball contact point and the cue ball's track line after object ball contact. If I want the cue ball to move along a different track line, I determine the english needed and make a small adjustment to the object ball contact point to adjust for throw. And the distance between the cue ball and object ball is a considerable factor that must be adjusted for. If the distance is small, then the throw will be greater due to spin transfer.
I know a lot of players say that the spin transfer is to small to make an impact, but my experience has proven that statement wrong. I tend to stroke using long, smooth follow through, and I have found that spin transfer has a big impact on the object ball's track line. I tend to treat every shot like a masse shot. Whereas, if the cue's contact point is not dead center, then english will be applied, and must be account for.<hr /></blockquote>You might have an awesome draw stroke, but it sounds like you have a little to learn about squirt, swerve, and throw. You should check out all of my recent articles on these topics (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/index.html).

Regards,
Dave

okinawa77
09-14-2007, 04:41 PM
Deeman,

From my experience, when using any english on the cue ball, the transfer of spin will cause the object ball to spin in an opposite direction.

Natural english: (Top/Follow and Low/Draw along the center axis of the cue ball is Natural English). The natural roll of a ball is forward which is top or follow spin. Using draw on an object, let's say 12 inches or less from the cue ball, will cause the object ball to accellerate away from the cue ball because you are imparting follow/forward spin on the object ball.

Side English: right or left english-If you use right english on the cue ball, your object ball will have the opposite spin (left english). Upon impact, the initial movement of the object ball will be different, than your controlled test (baseline).

If you are familiar with the "spot shot", then you can use this drill to see the effects on the object balls track line...with one change. Instead on having the cue ball behind the head string, put the cue ball about 12 inches or less from the object ball. Set it up with the object ball ( 15 ball for example) on the foot spot. Set up an angled cut shot, and baseline it by using no english on the cue ball. Once you have established a cut shot with the appropriate object ball track line. Use the best draw (low english) stroke you can while impacting the same spot on the object ball as before, and you will see that the object ball will not follow the same track line. I know it is difficult for a lot of people to shoot a shot and watch the cue ball and object ball's spin because it happens so fast. Understanding the spin and each ball's reaction of contact from ball's with spin will help you a lot. If you have a fancy, high tech camera, you can video your shots...and when you play it back in slow motion, the spin becomes very obvious.

I have played: in Aurora (Denver area), Colorado from 1998-1999; in Austin, Texas from 1999-2003; and Sunnyvale/Mountain View, California from 2003-present day.
I play straight pool, 8-ball, 9-ball, and have recently meddled around with carom ball and 3 cushion.

I hope the terms I use do not throw you off. I work in the semiconductor business, and many times during "root cause" failure analysis, we conduct experiments. The first step is to create a baseline or controlled test that establishes the ideal action and response. We take that data from that test to compare with other tests that involve altering test conditions.

So, in this case, shooting an angle cut shot without any english (dead center cue ball), is the baseline. You know that the object ball will track straight to the pocket, and the cue ball will track away from the object ball 90 degrees from the object ball track line/contact point.

By changing only one test condition at a time and comparing the results, you can establish a consistent trend, and analysis of the results will help you understand the cause and effect due to the changing of that test condition. In this case, changing from dead center cue ball contact, to english.

okinawa77
09-14-2007, 04:52 PM
Dr. Dave,

I value your articles because they articulate what I cannot. I know these concepts from experience (trial and error / lessons learned), but I have difficulty articulating it. That is why I shy away from teaching. I can perform, but I cannot explain clearly how I perform, in such a way that others can understand. I will read through more of your articles in efforts to improve my articulation.

Tom_In_Cincy
09-14-2007, 06:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Why would you try and practice something unorthodox when you seem to have a great stroke already? <hr /></blockquote>
Dave,
I wonder how many of us have made improvements to just about anything when we start to think 'outside the box' Pool isn't much different.
The 'slip stroke' worked well for Willie Mosconi and a lot of other great players of his time. It is a very difficult stroke to learn let alone teach.

SKennedy
09-14-2007, 07:43 PM
Well, this honest neophyte is still trying to figure out "What's a slip stroke?" Maybe I do it and don't know what it is called, and then again maybe I'll learn something completely new.

Bob_Jewett
09-14-2007, 11:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> Well, this honest neophyte is still trying to figure out "What's a slip stroke?" Maybe I do it and don't know what it is called, and then again maybe I'll learn something completely new. <hr /></blockquote>
Here is an article from Billiards Digest that describes several kinds of stroke including the slip stroke: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2005-10.pdf

And here is one that describes some other strokes: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2005-11.pdf

okinawa77
09-14-2007, 11:49 PM
Bob,

Thanks for the article links, interesting read.

okinawa77
09-14-2007, 11:52 PM
SKennedy,

Can you describe the way you shoot?
I am interested to know how you incorporate a slip.

1Time
09-15-2007, 04:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Why would you try and practice something unorthodox when you seem to have a great stroke already? <hr /></blockquote>
Dave,
I wonder how many of us have made improvements to just about anything when we start to think 'outside the box' Pool isn't much different.
The 'slip stroke' worked well for Willie Mosconi and a lot of other great players of his time. It is a very difficult stroke to learn let alone teach. <hr /></blockquote>

There are many, MANY examples in sports where training outside the orthodox is practiced. A few better known examples: a boxer ties a string between his ankles, a baseball player swings a bat with a donut weight on it, a basketball player shoots with a smaller than regulation size hoop, a golfer swings the club with only the lead arm.

Knowing this very early on made it seem only natural for me to try several different things with pool, and practically everything I tried helped me. Examples: slip stroke, immitating the variety of strokes used by other players, shooting one handed, shooting left and right handed, using a mechanical bridge as my only bridge, and changing my grip, bridge, and stance.

That said, one should be aware of the cost / benefit of trying a slip stroke or any other fundamental change to one's stroke / game. While trying something different may improve one's game (whether it remains a part of one's game or not), it may initially negatively affect one's stroke / game. It's like lifting weights, you do damage to your muscles (an initial net negative effect) but then with rest and nutrition your body rebuilds and compensates to make you stronger than before (a resulting net positive effect).

Cornerman
09-15-2007, 07:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr> I have been playing around with the slip stroke, and my first observation is that it allows you to follow through much more than a text book stroke.
<hr /></blockquote>If it works, go for it. If not... then don't, IMO. Doing a slip stroke isn't something that is taught. Personally, I slip stroke (reverse slip stroke)certain shots. But, I've been doing it naturally, out of the gate. So, it's a natural shot for me. I can't even imagine trying to teach someone, since a lot of things have to happen in a coordinated motion that would make "training the slip stroke," a bizarre concept.

But, that's just me. Like I said, if it helps your game, then it helps your game. Don't worry about the doom and gloom of the future of your game. Life's too short.

Fred

dr_dave
09-15-2007, 10:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Why would you try and practice something unorthodox when you seem to have a great stroke already? <hr /></blockquote>
Dave,
I wonder how many of us have made improvements to just about anything when we start to think 'outside the box' Pool isn't much different.
The 'slip stroke' worked well for Willie Mosconi and a lot of other great players of his time. It is a very difficult stroke to learn let alone teach. <hr /></blockquote>Tom,

I'm not against trying something "outside of the box" or "unorthodox." However, before I try something that doesn't seem right to me, I can't help by asking: Why? Just because a few great players used it, does that mean it is a good thing. I've seen many great players do things that make me cringe, and I would never want to try to emulate some of their unorthodox techniques (even though these techniques seem to work for them). Great players aren't always great models for recommended "best practices;" although, they often are (e.g., Mosconi). I personally would not spend even a few minutes on something like a slip stroke unless I thought there was some possible advantage or benefit. Does anybody know of anything a slip stroke allows you to do that can't be done as well with a more orthodox stroke?

Regards,
Dave

Tom_In_Cincy
09-15-2007, 01:13 PM
The slip stroke was a very popular stroke for the 14.1 players that played 90% of the game in a small 4.5 foot square.

Nine ball requires more off-center hits and a different stroke. Not that it can't be used, Gary Speath, a pretty good player, 9ball and banks, in the 80s and 90s used this stroke.

IMO the slip stroke improved my short game and speed control when I first used it playing 14.1

Since 9 ball has become the game of choice for a lot of the newer players, the teaching community has adopted the more traditional (and correctly so) stroke.

But, when you are trying to learn something new to improve your game, it is not a bad idea to 'try something radical'

Even the stuff that doesn't work, can be educational.

Jal
09-15-2007, 02:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>...Does anybody know of anything a slip stroke allows you to do that can't be done as well with a more orthodox stroke?<hr /></blockquote>I don't, unless for some reason you like to choke up on the cue (hand forward) during address. Both "slip-stroke" and "stroke-slip" should get you more cue speed, or require less peak force to produce the same speed compared to not slipping. If there is any advantage to doing it this way (choking up), it's beyond me.

I would guess that the whole idea was a consequence of players emulating or following Mosconi's advice to position the grip just a few inches aft of the balance point....not a good idea if you happen to be tall. Some may have falsely believed that stroke-slip works because by releasing the cue during the forward stroke, you were no longer "deadening" the action at impact. In fact, you're just avoiding the deceleration phase which, imo, is a natural consequence of the hand forward style.

Jim

SKennedy
09-15-2007, 09:04 PM
Thanks for informing me wwth the links. As to how I use the slip? I don't. I basically use the standard and that is all.

Cornerman
09-16-2007, 06:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> I would guess that the whole idea was a consequence of players emulating or following Mosconi's advice to position the grip just a few inches aft of the balance point <hr /></blockquote>Not true. The majority of slip strokers have never read nor seen Mosconi.

Like I said previously, a lot of players just naturally started doing it, as naturally as side-armers, chicken wingers &amp; finger tuckers.

The advantage is that it's natural and comfortable. And sometimes in this game, that's all we can ask for.


Fred

okinawa77
09-16-2007, 10:08 PM
Jal,

I just noticed, while practicing the slip stroke, that I do get more cue speed with much more ease...as you stated. I have not delved into the stroke slip, yet.

As far as the choking up situation, I noticed...if I address the ball from a normal distance from the cue ball, I can stroke slip to the cue ball during the practice stroke, then execute the slip stroke for the actual shot.

I can understand the difficulties for taller players. The fellow that showed me the slip stroke in Colorado is about 6'3". For taller players, they really should get a custom cue that is longer. According to most Billiards associations, there is a minimum length requirement. But there is no maximum limit to the length. I have seen very tall players shoot with their grip hand on the very end of the cue, and even at the end of the cue, they have to elevate the back end quite a bit. This causes a piston stroke, and consequently causing inconsistency in performance.

Cornerman
09-17-2007, 05:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr> Jal,

I just noticed, while practicing the slip stroke, that I do get more cue speed with much more ease...as you stated.<hr /></blockquote>That's the advantage. After all the discussion on what is necessary for action, etc., many players... most top players do what they do in the most economical and efficient manner. And sometimes, just like in all sports, most efficient and most economical involves more complex coordinated motion. It irks me when people debate "less is better," when in no sports that involves phyical motion does this hold true.

Loose wrists, slip stroke, and yes, even the dreaded elbow drop... the top players are the top players because they can coordinate these complex motions, making for a more efficient cue motion.

Those who of us don't have the time or ability to do all those at a tip top level are better off honing the "less is better" approach, to get the best out of their game.

Fred

Deeman3
09-17-2007, 07:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr> Deeman,

From my experience, when using any english on the cue ball, the transfer of spin will cause the object ball to spin in an opposite direction. <font color="blue"> That would be my experience as well but I don't see what that has to do with the change in the track line of the cue ball. </font color>

Natural english: (Top/Follow and Low/Draw along the center axis of the cue ball is Natural English). <font color="blue"> ???? </font color> The natural roll of a ball is forward which is top or follow spin. <font color="blue"> In my opinion, natural english can be different from natural roll. A force follow, for instance, is not a natural roll. I also have always thought of natural english as that applied in the direction of the cushion as opposed to reverse english, for instance.</font color> Using draw on an object, let's say 12 inches or less from the cue ball, will cause the object ball to accellerate away from the cue ball because you are imparting follow/forward spin on the object ball. <font color="blue"> I think about the best it can do is give the object ball a little forward inertia/roll and while there may be some small accelleration it has more to do with amount of transferred spin than distance from the object ball. </font color>

Side English: right or left english-If you use right english on the cue ball, your object ball will have the opposite spin (left english). Upon impact, the initial movement of the object ball will be different, than your controlled test (baseline). <font color="blue"> Yes, this is called throw. </font color>

If you are familiar with the "spot shot", then you can use this drill to see the effects on the object balls track line...with one change. Instead on having the cue ball behind the head string, put the cue ball about 12 inches or less from the object ball. Set it up with the object ball ( 15 ball for example) on the foot spot. Set up an angled cut shot, and baseline it by using no english on the cue ball. Once you have established a cut shot with the appropriate object ball track line. Use the best draw (low english) stroke you can while impacting the same spot on the object ball as before, and you will see that the object ball will not follow the same track line. <font color="blue"> Wait! So, in your game, the draw changes the track line of the object ball rather than the englsih or side spin. </font color> I know it is difficult for a lot of people to shoot a shot and watch the cue ball and object ball's spin because it happens so fast. Understanding the spin and each ball's reaction of contact from ball's with spin will help you a lot. If you have a fancy, high tech camera, you can video your shots...and when you play it back in slow motion, the spin becomes very obvious. <font color="blue"> It would help me if you would refer to "spin" more often in terms of side spin, draw or follow as just "spin" leaves a lot out of the description for me. </font color>

I have played: in Aurora (Denver area), Colorado from 1998-1999; in Austin, Texas from 1999-2003; and Sunnyvale/Mountain View, California from 2003-present day.
I play straight pool, 8-ball, 9-ball, and have recently meddled around with carom ball and 3 cushion.

I hope the terms I use do not throw you off. I work in the semiconductor business, and many times during "root cause" failure analysis, we conduct experiments. The first step is to create a baseline or controlled test that establishes the ideal action and response. We take that data from that test to compare with other tests that involve altering test conditions. <font color="blue"> I am very familiar with root cause analysis as I use it about every day but for a slightly different industry. </font color>

So, in this case, shooting an angle cut shot without any english (dead center cue ball), is the baseline. You know that the object ball will track straight to the pocket, and the cue ball will track away from the object ball 90 degrees from the object ball track line/contact point. <font color="blue"> Again, I don't mean to be a nit picker but, to me, that is true at least for the initial departure of the cue ball if it had no rotation but if there was any distance between the cue and object ball, natural roll might change that 90 degree line at least after a bit of time. </font color>

By changing only one test condition at a time and comparing the results, you can establish a consistent trend, and analysis of the results will help you understand the cause and effect due to the changing of that test condition. In this case, changing from dead center cue ball contact, to english. <font color="blue"> I guess your just way over my head on this trend analysis stuff. I'll wait for the simplified version. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

dr_dave
09-17-2007, 09:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>Loose wrists, slip stroke, and yes, even the dreaded elbow drop... the top players are the top players because they can coordinate these complex motions, making for a more efficient cue motion.<hr /></blockquote>There are also many great players who don't do these things, and have a more "textbook-like" technique. I'm not saying this proves anything, but I don't think the things you list are requirements to be a good player. Maybe you agree, but it seemed like you were implying otherwise.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>Those who of us don't have the time or ability to do all those at a tip top level are better off honing the "less is better" approach, to get the best out of their game.<hr /></blockquote>Agreed!

Dave

SKennedy
09-17-2007, 11:37 AM
Sometimes players are great in spite of themselves. There are quite few pro pitchers out there with some poor mechanics. But they have the athletic ability to compensate for the poor mechanics. Despite differences in mechanics, etc. they all do have some things in common (very quick shoulder, etc.). Sorry to use baseball as an analogy, but it's something I know or feel more comfortable with.

dr_dave
09-17-2007, 12:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> Sometimes players are great in spite of themselves. There are quite few pro pitchers out there with some poor mechanics. But they have the athletic ability to compensate for the poor mechanics. Despite differences in mechanics, etc. they all do have some things in common (very quick shoulder, etc.). Sorry to use baseball as an analogy, but it's something I know or feel more comfortable with. <hr /></blockquote>That's a good analogy. I think there are analogies in all sports. Great players aren't always the best models for suggested best practices; although, sometimes they are.

Dave

okinawa77
09-17-2007, 12:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr> Deeman,

From my experience, when using any english on the cue ball, the transfer of spin will cause the object ball to spin in an opposite direction. <font color="blue"> That would be my experience as well but I don't see what that has to do with the change in the track line of the cue ball. </font color> <font color="green"> My point is the change in track line of the object ball, but the cue ball track line will also change in comparison to using dead center cue ball with little elevation in the cue.</font color>

Natural english: (Top/Follow and Low/Draw along the center axis of the cue ball is Natural English). <font color="blue"> ???? </font color> The natural roll of a ball is forward which is top or follow spin. <font color="blue"> In my opinion, natural english can be different from natural roll. A force follow, for instance, is not a natural roll. I also have always thought of natural english as that applied in the direction of the cushion as opposed to reverse english, for instance.</font color> <font color="green"> Any contact on the cue ball along the center axis is considered natural english. What you are referring to for rail use, is called helping english...because you are helping the ball come off the rail with natural spin...giving it a more accurate track line. If you take a striped ball and hit it dead center into the rail using top spin, you will see the spin of the striped ball change after impact with the rail...as you will also see using bottom spin. </font color> Using draw on an object, let's say 12 inches or less from the cue ball, will cause the object ball to accellerate away from the cue ball because you are imparting follow/forward spin on the object ball. <font color="blue"> I think about the best it can do is give the object ball a little forward inertia/roll and while there may be some small accelleration it has more to do with amount of transferred spin than distance from the object ball. </font color> <font color="green"> You are on the right track, but if you are shooting your cue ball from a longer distance to your object ball, your cue ball will lose some of it's spinning power. Whereas with the cue ball and object ball a closer distance to each other, you can transfer much more spin to the object ball.
Sometimes you will see a player pound a ball really hard for what seems like a relatively simple shot. What they are usually doing is, trying to impart as much spin as they can on the cue ball, in order to throw the object ball. In some cases of cut angled shots with obstructing balls, this might be necessary...and may possibly be the only way to pocket the object ball. </font color>

Side English: right or left english-If you use right english on the cue ball, your object ball will have the opposite spin (left english). Upon impact, the initial movement of the object ball will be different, than your controlled test (baseline). <font color="blue"> Yes, this is called throw. </font color>

If you are familiar with the "spot shot", then you can use this drill to see the effects on the object balls track line...with one change. Instead on having the cue ball behind the head string, put the cue ball about 12 inches or less from the object ball. Set it up with the object ball ( 15 ball for example) on the foot spot. Set up an angled cut shot, and baseline it by using no english on the cue ball. Once you have established a cut shot with the appropriate object ball track line. Use the best draw (low english) stroke you can while impacting the same spot on the object ball as before, and you will see that the object ball will not follow the same track line. <font color="blue"> Wait! So, in your game, the draw changes the track line of the object ball rather than the englsih or side spin. </font color> <font color="green"> Yes, if I stroke the cue ball with anything other than dead center cue ball with very little elevation ( this is what I call my base line or foundation stroke), then any english will cause the object ball to throw....but keep in mind, I usually shoot with a smooth follow through stroke. Therefore, I will deliver a lot of spin on the cue ball, and consequently...depending on the distance between the cue ball and object ball..impart throw to the object ball. So, depending on the distance, I must adjust my aim (object ball contact point) in order to pocket the object ball. </font color> I know it is difficult for a lot of people to shoot a shot and watch the cue ball and object ball's spin because it happens so fast. Understanding the spin and each ball's reaction of contact from ball's with spin will help you a lot. If you have a fancy, high tech camera, you can video your shots...and when you play it back in slow motion, the spin becomes very obvious. <font color="blue"> It would help me if you would refer to "spin" more often in terms of side spin, draw or follow as just "spin" leaves a lot out of the description for me. </font color>

I have played: in Aurora (Denver area), Colorado from 1998-1999; in Austin, Texas from 1999-2003; and Sunnyvale/Mountain View, California from 2003-present day.
I play straight pool, 8-ball, 9-ball, and have recently meddled around with carom ball and 3 cushion.

I hope the terms I use do not throw you off. I work in the semiconductor business, and many times during "root cause" failure analysis, we conduct experiments. The first step is to create a baseline or controlled test that establishes the ideal action and response. We take that data from that test to compare with other tests that involve altering test conditions. <font color="blue"> I am very familiar with root cause analysis as I use it about every day but for a slightly different industry. </font color>

So, in this case, shooting an angle cut shot without any english (dead center cue ball), is the baseline. You know that the object ball will track straight to the pocket, and the cue ball will track away from the object ball 90 degrees from the object ball track line/contact point. <font color="blue"> Again, I don't mean to be a nit picker but, to me, that is true at least for the initial departure of the cue ball if it had no rotation but if there was any distance between the cue and object ball, natural roll might change that 90 degree line at least after a bit of time. </font color> <font color="green"> You are correct. On every shot, the cue ball and other balls will eventually go into the natural roll. That natural roll is forward spin. In some cases of long shots that are slightly angled, thus preventing the use of draw or stun in order to hold the cue ball up near the object ball, you can either contact the cue ball with a very, very delicate and difficult to execute, slow roller....Or you can use a little draw, but only enough to spin about half the distance to the object ball...that way the cue ball will come out of the draw midway to the object ball and go into it's natural roll. I can execute the slow roller shot, but you are at the mercy of the table conditions. Slow roller shots give the opportunity to allow "table roll". Table roll is a constant factor for me because I am a finesse shooter, but learning the rolls of the table can be used to your advantage, and in some cases, be used against your opponent. </font color>

By changing only one test condition at a time and comparing the results, you can establish a consistent trend, and analysis of the results will help you understand the cause and effect due to the changing of that test condition. In this case, changing from dead center cue ball contact, to english. <font color="blue"> I guess your just way over my head on this trend analysis stuff. I'll wait for the simplified version. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif</font color> </font color> <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman3
09-17-2007, 01:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr> Deeman,

From my experience, when using any english on the cue ball, the transfer of spin will cause the object ball to spin in an opposite direction. <font color="blue"> That would be my experience as well but I don't see what that has to do with the change in the track line of the cue ball. </font color> <font color="green"> My point is the change in track line of the object ball, but the cue ball track line will also change in comparison to using dead center cue ball with little elevation in the cue.</font color> <font color="red"> Again, you are just a lot more advanced in the understading of the physics than I am. I'm jotting all this down.</font color>

Natural english: (Top/Follow and Low/Draw along the center axis of the cue ball is Natural English). <font color="blue"> ???? </font color> The natural roll of a ball is forward which is top or follow spin. <font color="blue"> In my opinion, natural english can be different from natural roll. A force follow, for instance, is not a natural roll. I also have always thought of natural english as that applied in the direction of the cushion as opposed to reverse english, for instance.</font color> <font color="green"> Any contact on the cue ball along the center axis is considered natural english. What you are referring to for rail use, is called helping english...because you are helping the ball come off the rail with natural spin...giving it a more accurate track line. If you take a striped ball and hit it dead center into the rail using top spin, you will see the spin of the striped ball change after impact with the rail...as you will also see using bottom spin. </font color> Using draw on an object, let's say 12 inches or less from the cue ball, will cause the object ball to accellerate away from the cue ball because you are imparting follow/forward spin on the object ball. <font color="blue"> I think about the best it can do is give the object ball a little forward inertia/roll and while there may be some small accelleration it has more to do with amount of transferred spin than distance from the object ball. </font color> <font color="green"> You are on the right track, but if you are shooting your cue ball from a longer distance to your object ball, your cue ball will lose some of it's spinning power. Whereas with the cue ball and object ball a closer distance to each other, you can transfer much more spin to the object ball.
Sometimes you will see a player pound a ball really hard for what seems like a relatively simple shot. What they are usually doing is, trying to impart as much spin as they can on the cue ball, in order to throw the object ball. In some cases of cut angled shots with obstructing balls, this might be necessary...and may possibly be the only way to pocket the object ball. </font color> <font color="red">So, the harder you "pound" a ball the more "throw" you get. Interesting!!! </font color>

Side English: right or left english-If you use right english on the cue ball, your object ball will have the opposite spin (left english). Upon impact, the initial movement of the object ball will be different, than your controlled test (baseline). <font color="blue"> Yes, this is called throw. </font color>

If you are familiar with the "spot shot", then you can use this drill to see the effects on the object balls track line...with one change. Instead on having the cue ball behind the head string, put the cue ball about 12 inches or less from the object ball. Set it up with the object ball ( 15 ball for example) on the foot spot. Set up an angled cut shot, and baseline it by using no english on the cue ball. Once you have established a cut shot with the appropriate object ball track line. Use the best draw (low english) stroke you can while impacting the same spot on the object ball as before, and you will see that the object ball will not follow the same track line. <font color="blue"> Wait! So, in your game, the draw changes the track line of the object ball rather than the englsih or side spin. </font color> <font color="green"> Yes, if I stroke the cue ball with anything other than dead center cue ball with very little elevation ( this is what I call my base line or foundation stroke), then any english will cause the object ball to throw....but keep in mind, I usually shoot with a smooth follow through stroke. Therefore, I will deliver a lot of spin on the cue ball, and consequently...depending on the distance between the cue ball and object ball..impart throw to the object ball. So, depending on the distance, I must adjust my aim (object ball contact point) in order to pocket the object ball. </font color> <font color="red"> I had thought that draw and follow did not add that much "throw" to the object ball that that was mostly a product of side spin or what the PHD's call collision induced throw but I thought all along they were for sure full of it. Thanks for clearing that one up. </font color> I know it is difficult for a lot of people to shoot a shot and watch the cue ball and object ball's spin because it happens so fast. Understanding the spin and each ball's reaction of contact from ball's with spin will help you a lot. <font color="red"> God, I hope so. </font color> If you have a fancy, high tech camera, you can video your shots.. <font color="red"> NO but my blood brother from CSU does! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif</font color> .and when you play it back in slow motion, the spin becomes very obvious. <font color="blue"> It would help me if you would refer to "spin" more often in terms of side spin, draw or follow as just "spin" leaves a lot out of the description for me. </font color>

I have played: in Aurora (Denver area), Colorado from 1998-1999; in Austin, Texas from 1999-2003; and Sunnyvale/Mountain View, California from 2003-present day.
I play straight pool, 8-ball, 9-ball, and have recently meddled around with carom ball and 3 cushion.

I hope the terms I use do not throw you off. I work in the semiconductor business, and many times during "root cause" failure analysis, we conduct experiments. The first step is to create a baseline or controlled test that establishes the ideal action and response. We take that data from that test to compare with other tests that involve altering test conditions. <font color="blue"> I am very familiar with root cause analysis as I use it about every day but for a slightly different industry. </font color>

So, in this case, shooting an angle cut shot without any english (dead center cue ball), is the baseline. You know that the object ball will track straight to the pocket, and the cue ball will track away from the object ball 90 degrees from the object ball track line/contact point. <font color="blue"> Again, I don't mean to be a nit picker but, to me, that is true at least for the initial departure of the cue ball if it had no rotation but if there was any distance between the cue and object ball, natural roll might change that 90 degree line at least after a bit of time. </font color> <font color="green"> You are correct. On every shot, the cue ball and other balls will eventually go into the natural roll. That natural roll is forward spin. In some cases of long shots that are slightly angled, thus preventing the use of draw or stun in order to hold the cue ball up near the object ball, you can either contact the cue ball with a very, very delicate and difficult to execute, slow roller....Or you can use a little draw, but only enough to spin about half the distance to the object ball...that way the cue ball will come out of the draw midway to the object ball and go into it's natural roll. I can execute the slow roller shot, but you are at the mercy of the table conditions. Slow roller shots give the opportunity to allow "table roll". Table roll is a constant factor for me because I am a finesse shooter, but learning the rolls of the table can be used to your advantage, and in some cases, be used against your opponent. </font color> <font color="red"> Wow, is that what they call that "Kill Shot" I've heard of? Being A non-finesse player, I just rare back and hit it. </font color>

By changing only one test condition at a time and comparing the results, you can establish a consistent trend, and analysis of the results will help you understand the cause and effect due to the changing of that test condition. In this case, changing from dead center cue ball contact, to english. <font color="blue"> I guess your just way over my head on this trend analysis stuff. I'll wait for the simplified version. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif</font color> </font color> <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> Well, I still think you guys in Colorado and California are just a might more advanced than us but I do appreciate your indulgence in answering my silly questions. I'll look at english in whole new light now.

Cheers</font color>

dr_dave
09-17-2007, 02:34 PM
Deeman,

I'm surprised at how far you're taking this. Haven't you teased the poor guy enough?

Dave

PS: BTW, I hope you weren't referring to me when you mentioned "guys in Colorado," in your ending sentence that I interpreted as ridiculing. If you weren't, my apologies. If you were, those is fightin' words.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr> Deeman,

From my experience, when using any english on the cue ball, the transfer of spin will cause the object ball to spin in an opposite direction. <font color="blue"> That would be my experience as well but I don't see what that has to do with the change in the track line of the cue ball. </font color> <font color="green"> My point is the change in track line of the object ball, but the cue ball track line will also change in comparison to using dead center cue ball with little elevation in the cue.</font color> <font color="red"> Again, you are just a lot more advanced in the understading of the physics than I am. I'm jotting all this down.</font color>

Natural english: (Top/Follow and Low/Draw along the center axis of the cue ball is Natural English). <font color="blue"> ???? </font color> The natural roll of a ball is forward which is top or follow spin. <font color="blue"> In my opinion, natural english can be different from natural roll. A force follow, for instance, is not a natural roll. I also have always thought of natural english as that applied in the direction of the cushion as opposed to reverse english, for instance.</font color> <font color="green"> Any contact on the cue ball along the center axis is considered natural english. What you are referring to for rail use, is called helping english...because you are helping the ball come off the rail with natural spin...giving it a more accurate track line. If you take a striped ball and hit it dead center into the rail using top spin, you will see the spin of the striped ball change after impact with the rail...as you will also see using bottom spin. </font color> Using draw on an object, let's say 12 inches or less from the cue ball, will cause the object ball to accellerate away from the cue ball because you are imparting follow/forward spin on the object ball. <font color="blue"> I think about the best it can do is give the object ball a little forward inertia/roll and while there may be some small accelleration it has more to do with amount of transferred spin than distance from the object ball. </font color> <font color="green"> You are on the right track, but if you are shooting your cue ball from a longer distance to your object ball, your cue ball will lose some of it's spinning power. Whereas with the cue ball and object ball a closer distance to each other, you can transfer much more spin to the object ball.
Sometimes you will see a player pound a ball really hard for what seems like a relatively simple shot. What they are usually doing is, trying to impart as much spin as they can on the cue ball, in order to throw the object ball. In some cases of cut angled shots with obstructing balls, this might be necessary...and may possibly be the only way to pocket the object ball. </font color> <font color="red">So, the harder you "pound" a ball the more "throw" you get. Interesting!!! </font color>

Side English: right or left english-If you use right english on the cue ball, your object ball will have the opposite spin (left english). Upon impact, the initial movement of the object ball will be different, than your controlled test (baseline). <font color="blue"> Yes, this is called throw. </font color>

If you are familiar with the "spot shot", then you can use this drill to see the effects on the object balls track line...with one change. Instead on having the cue ball behind the head string, put the cue ball about 12 inches or less from the object ball. Set it up with the object ball ( 15 ball for example) on the foot spot. Set up an angled cut shot, and baseline it by using no english on the cue ball. Once you have established a cut shot with the appropriate object ball track line. Use the best draw (low english) stroke you can while impacting the same spot on the object ball as before, and you will see that the object ball will not follow the same track line. <font color="blue"> Wait! So, in your game, the draw changes the track line of the object ball rather than the englsih or side spin. </font color> <font color="green"> Yes, if I stroke the cue ball with anything other than dead center cue ball with very little elevation ( this is what I call my base line or foundation stroke), then any english will cause the object ball to throw....but keep in mind, I usually shoot with a smooth follow through stroke. Therefore, I will deliver a lot of spin on the cue ball, and consequently...depending on the distance between the cue ball and object ball..impart throw to the object ball. So, depending on the distance, I must adjust my aim (object ball contact point) in order to pocket the object ball. </font color> <font color="red"> I had thought that draw and follow did not add that much "throw" to the object ball that that was mostly a product of side spin or what the PHD's call collision induced throw but I thought all along they were for sure full of it. Thanks for clearing that one up. </font color> I know it is difficult for a lot of people to shoot a shot and watch the cue ball and object ball's spin because it happens so fast. Understanding the spin and each ball's reaction of contact from ball's with spin will help you a lot. <font color="red"> God, I hope so. </font color> If you have a fancy, high tech camera, you can video your shots.. <font color="red"> NO but my blood brother from CSU does! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif</font color> .and when you play it back in slow motion, the spin becomes very obvious. <font color="blue"> It would help me if you would refer to "spin" more often in terms of side spin, draw or follow as just "spin" leaves a lot out of the description for me. </font color>

I have played: in Aurora (Denver area), Colorado from 1998-1999; in Austin, Texas from 1999-2003; and Sunnyvale/Mountain View, California from 2003-present day.
I play straight pool, 8-ball, 9-ball, and have recently meddled around with carom ball and 3 cushion.

I hope the terms I use do not throw you off. I work in the semiconductor business, and many times during "root cause" failure analysis, we conduct experiments. The first step is to create a baseline or controlled test that establishes the ideal action and response. We take that data from that test to compare with other tests that involve altering test conditions. <font color="blue"> I am very familiar with root cause analysis as I use it about every day but for a slightly different industry. </font color>

So, in this case, shooting an angle cut shot without any english (dead center cue ball), is the baseline. You know that the object ball will track straight to the pocket, and the cue ball will track away from the object ball 90 degrees from the object ball track line/contact point. <font color="blue"> Again, I don't mean to be a nit picker but, to me, that is true at least for the initial departure of the cue ball if it had no rotation but if there was any distance between the cue and object ball, natural roll might change that 90 degree line at least after a bit of time. </font color> <font color="green"> You are correct. On every shot, the cue ball and other balls will eventually go into the natural roll. That natural roll is forward spin. In some cases of long shots that are slightly angled, thus preventing the use of draw or stun in order to hold the cue ball up near the object ball, you can either contact the cue ball with a very, very delicate and difficult to execute, slow roller....Or you can use a little draw, but only enough to spin about half the distance to the object ball...that way the cue ball will come out of the draw midway to the object ball and go into it's natural roll. I can execute the slow roller shot, but you are at the mercy of the table conditions. Slow roller shots give the opportunity to allow "table roll". Table roll is a constant factor for me because I am a finesse shooter, but learning the rolls of the table can be used to your advantage, and in some cases, be used against your opponent. </font color> <font color="red"> Wow, is that what they call that "Kill Shot" I've heard of? Being A non-finesse player, I just rare back and hit it. </font color>

By changing only one test condition at a time and comparing the results, you can establish a consistent trend, and analysis of the results will help you understand the cause and effect due to the changing of that test condition. In this case, changing from dead center cue ball contact, to english. <font color="blue"> I guess your just way over my head on this trend analysis stuff. I'll wait for the simplified version. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif</font color> </font color> <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> Well, I still think you guys in Colorado and California are just a might more advanced than us but I do appreciate your indulgence in answering my silly questions. I'll look at english in whole new light now.

Cheers</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman3
09-17-2007, 03:11 PM
Dave,

Yes, I have. I'm suffering a sore neck today, have for the entire weekend and was bored as well.

I'll be nice, for a day or so......

Hey, I said my friend at CSU had a fancy camera. I would not try to start a fight with you, Dave. You know us simple country folk are a peace lovin' group!

I have spent a whole lot of time in Colorado, from Larimer Street to Cheynne Mt. to Rocky Flats to Boulder, Silver City, Gunnison and all along the Divide. I've fallen on every major ski resort and camped out in cold so bad ouor dishes froze from trhe stream when washing them. My father spent most of his adult life at the Denver Post and Rocky Mountain News. I love everyone in that state.

Notice how I never get smart assed with anyone that is not 2000 miles from me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif I know those guys in Tuscoloosa and closer will travel to shoot someone. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SKennedy
09-17-2007, 04:14 PM
It's OK Deeman. Folks mean well most of the time, and some don't have a lot of experience but get excited about a subject. You guys can be intimidating and if I get to sounding pompous, feel free to take me down a notch or 2 also. We all need it from time to time. I just hope you don't scare the new guy off. I certainly did not realize the caliber of players on this site, and certainly did not anticipate that any billiard site would have the intellectual discourse I've seen in the short time I've been participating. You guys treat this site, and sometimes fellow posters like you would on the pool table. And that's OK, it's just your competitive nature. I'm sure not everyone reading these posts actually knew what you were doing except those who already know you well enough. Dave is the exception. But he probably has had to develop more patience than the rest of us. But one thing may suprise you. This guy might do a pretty good job on the table......and with my failing eyesight, aging body, and inability for youthful focus, I'd have to put my money on him over me on the table. But, I think I can beat Dave.....
Speaking of Dave, I'll be in Colorado (Durango area) next week. Any haunts I need to say hello to while I'm there?

dr_dave
09-17-2007, 04:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr>But, I think I can beat Dave.....
Speaking of Dave, I'll be in Colorado (Durango area) next week.<hr /></blockquote>If you want to take a small detour to Fort Collins, look me up so you can put your theory to a test.

Dave

dr_dave
09-17-2007, 04:37 PM
Deeman,

I figured you meant well. I was just a little worried that some people (for example, the new guy) might not know you and your intentions very well, and might be offended. I know you might not necessarily care what others think about you (that's one reason why you are so well liked), but I don't want people (especially new users that might have good thoughts to contribute) to get offended and driven off.

I also appreciate that new people need to have a little humility. I learned my lesson the hard way when I first joined the CCB. The reception I got was less than warm from quite a few people. Now I realize I was very naive and maybe even a little insulting to some (i.e., I probably deserved some of the abuse). But I'm still here, not always with humility, but usually with respect.

Catch you later,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Dave,

Yes, I have. I'm suffering a sore neck today, have for the entire weekend and was bored as well.

I'll be nice, for a day or so......

Hey, I said my friend at CSU had a fancy camera. I would not try to start a fight with you, Dave. You know us simple country folk are a peace lovin' group!

I have spent a whole lot of time in Colorado, from Larimer Street to Cheynne Mt. to Rocky Flats to Boulder, Silver City, Gunnison and all along the Divide. I've fallen on every major ski resort and camped out in cold so bad ouor dishes froze from trhe stream when washing them. My father spent most of his adult life at the Denver Post and Rocky Mountain News. I love everyone in that state.

Notice how I never get smart assed with anyone that is not 2000 miles from me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif I know those guys in Tuscoloosa and closer will travel to shoot someone. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

SKennedy
09-17-2007, 06:56 PM
Now I've got to look up how far it is from Ft. Collins to Durango......wife will also be with me this trip....hope these excuses may work so I can save face.
If not too far away and if time allows, I'll see what I can do. I'm ready for my butt kicking.

Deeman3
09-18-2007, 07:41 AM
Dave,

I've been taken down a notch of two in my time as well. It was in good fun but at the same time a small challenge to some of the ideas put forward. When we say things that may be unclear, wrong or mislabled, someone has to ask at least a quetion or two. My failing is the sarcastic side of my evil personality. I just can't bring myself beyond the first question being civil, then the smart assed reply. I'll try harder but Fred, for instance has called me out but he is, unlike me, a basically pleasant and helpful chap while I cover the dark side. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Every class has to have the kid they send to the principal, I am filling in but do take the risk that on those occasions I am wrong, I get usually get plastered for it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I only mean to wound, not kill and don't want to chase anyone (other than FL) away....

Besides, some of my favorite folks are Kalifornians...

dr_dave
09-18-2007, 08:56 AM
Deeman,

As always, very well stated.

I personally like your smart-assed sarcasm. Your humility, humor, and great story-telling style help temper it.

Your friend,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Dave,

I've been taken down a notch of two in my time as well. It was in good fun but at the same time a small challenge to some of the ideas put forward. When we say things that may be unclear, wrong or mislabled, someone has to ask at least a quetion or two. My failing is the sarcastic side of my evil personality. I just can't bring myself beyond the first question being civil, then the smart assed reply. I'll try harder but Fred, for instance has called me out but he is, unlike me, a basically pleasant and helpful chap while I cover the dark side. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Every class has to have the kid they send to the principal, I am filling in but do take the risk that on those occasions I am wrong, I get usually get plastered for it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I only mean to wound, not kill and don't want to chase anyone (other than FL) away....

Besides, some of my favorite folks are Kalifornians... <hr /></blockquote>

SKennedy
09-18-2007, 09:02 AM
I, for one, also enjoy Deeman's responses. He helps make this site worthwhile.

SKennedy
09-18-2007, 10:40 AM
Small detour? It (Ft. Collins) is at the other end of the state! Looks like I got lucky this time and won't have to be embarrassed at the table once again. Actually, I'm sure I would enjoy a game with you. I use to play a lot at college and played a prof with the physics dept (Texas A&amp;M). We did discuss physics relative to the game, to the extent I could understand. Later when I was looking for part-time employment, he hired me. Great boss. I later introduced him to the game of golf, which he learned to love.
Anyway, guess I will leave Colorado with my false pride still in place.

dr_dave
09-18-2007, 02:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> Small detour? It (Ft. Collins) is at the other end of the state! Looks like I got lucky this time and won't have to be embarrassed at the table once again. Actually, I'm sure I would enjoy a game with you. I use to play a lot at college and played a prof with the physics dept (Texas A&amp;M). We did discuss physics relative to the game, to the extent I could understand. Later when I was looking for part-time employment, he hired me. Great boss. I later introduced him to the game of golf, which he learned to love.
Anyway, guess I will leave Colorado with my false pride still in place. <hr /></blockquote>You are right. Fort Collins is more than a "small detour" from Durango. Although, if you take a route through the mountains, the drive is beautiful. Maybe next time.

Regards,
Dave

okinawa77
09-18-2007, 03:10 PM
SKennedy,

Your profile states you are from Tyler, Texas (close to Austin). I will be in Austin in October. My schedule is packed pretty tight, but if you are up for a few games.

I don't know your skill level, but I am currently rated as an SL7 in 8 ball and 9 ball. Although, I am more of an SL8 in 9 ball. I am also rated as 600 in straight pool, even though the league operators would like to bump me up to 650. If you think I am good enough to give you a competitive game, then give me a shout.

I'll probably swing by Fast Eddies and the Burnet Rd Slick Willies, while I am in town.

SPetty
09-19-2007, 08:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr>Your profile states you are from Tyler, Texas (close to Austin). <hr /></blockquote>Tyler to Austin is about 230 miles -&gt; 4-1/2 hours

About the same as from Sunnyvale, CA to Carson City, NV.

SKennedy
09-19-2007, 08:26 AM
You are a much better player than me. I'd be glad to play a few, but Austin is a good 4 hours away from Tyler. When exactly are you going to be in Austin in October?

Deeman3
09-19-2007, 08:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr>Your profile states you are from Tyler, Texas (close to Austin). <hr /></blockquote>Tyler to Austin is about 230 miles -&gt; 4-1/2 hours

About the same as from Sunnyvale, CA to Carson City, NV.

<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> SPetty,

You guys are just too big. Perhaps Texas should consider giving some of the place back to Mexico. From the looks of things, you may have to. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif It was about 2 hours from Longview to PettyPoint but worth every mile for one hug from my favorite Texas player. How are the leagues going in Dallas now? Is Spiderman still terrorizing all the bar table action? Is Chin still beating everybody? Inquiring minds want to know. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Do you see many of the old gang much anymore? </font color>

wolfdancer
09-19-2007, 09:24 AM
About the same as from Sunnyvale, CA to Carson City, NV.
I thought you were way wrong on this, after driving from SF to Reno for so many years....but you're off by only 17 miles.
Not bad for a Texas gal.
I played Golf a couple of months ago in Carson City...great courses. Didn't get the chance though to stop in at Julie Hunter's Pool Room there.....none of my friends played pool.
Nice room also in Sunnyvale...Chet Ito's.... California Billiards.

SPetty
09-19-2007, 10:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr><font color="blue">It was about 2 hours from Longview to PettyPoint but worth every mile.... ... Do you see many of the old gang much anymore? </font color><hr /></blockquote>I used to have a friend that would come over from Marshall, a little farther out than Longview! I saw Spiderman a few weeks ago, we sucked at another scotch doubles tourney... /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I should probably start a new thread soon, but the end is near for PettyPoint. We gotta have at least one more big bash before it closes for good... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

okinawa77
09-19-2007, 11:49 AM
My mistake.....I was thinking of Taylor, Texas.

okinawa77
09-19-2007, 11:55 AM
Chet Ito sold California Billiards.

Jeff Szafransky is selling Shoreline Billards to Jerry Leo.

Deeman3
09-19-2007, 12:16 PM
I didn't want to be the one to annoounce it so I'm glad you have. PettyPoint will be forever my number one memory of Texas (and remember, I went to university there).

I really enjoyed meeting all the fine folks that showed up at each event and will always think of it when someone mentions a special pool place. I hope many can make it there for the "Last Call for You'all!" I will do whatever I can to rearrange it no matter the date you pick.

I'll also bring some "special" t-shirts. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

"No pinball, no politics and don't be too early, this is PettyPoint Mister!"

dr_dave
09-19-2007, 12:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>the end is near for PettyPoint.<hr /></blockquote>I'm sorry to hear that. It is such an awesome place, and I still have fond memories of my visit a few years ago. It was fun to meet so many prominent CCB posters in the flesh, all in one place.

Regards,
Dave

PS: If it is not too personal, could you share the reason for PettyPoint's demise?

okinawa77
09-19-2007, 02:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> You are a much better player than me. I'd be glad to play a few, but Austin is a good 4 hours away from Tyler. When exactly are you going to be in Austin in October? <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> I will be in Austin from Oct. 1st through 13th. And I'm not all that good. If you are close in skill level, then with a handicap, we could have a good time with competitive play.
Besides, I'll probably be licking my wounds from the Preliminary round for the US Amateur Championship. I don't expect to win it. Of course, I will try to. I just wanted to see how well I fare with some of the best players in this area.</font color>

SKennedy
09-19-2007, 02:31 PM
Deeman if you've been over here lately you'd know we've already given it back (Texas to Mexico).

SKennedy
09-19-2007, 02:45 PM
I know a few Marshallites. Most of them interesting characters. I was there last week and stopped in for a pulled pork sandwich (or 2 or 3) at Neely's. Bet your friend from Marshall has mentioned them to you?

SKennedy
09-19-2007, 02:48 PM
Trust me....I'm not nearly as good as I think I am or want to be. But, I am competitive and can shoot decent on occasion. That being said though, if you want to play vs some of the best in this area (Austin), it's not me. I'm sure there are some real quality players in that area.

wolfdancer
09-19-2007, 02:54 PM
It's been awhile since i escaped from California...don't know Jerry Leo, but isn't Jeff a strong pool player?
Sunnyvale Muni was perfect for my old slice drives, a few dogleg rights..

Deeman3
09-19-2007, 03:16 PM
I have, on the odd occasion, travelled from Longview to Marshal for a Neely's sandwich. Not bad for Texas....

okinawa77
09-19-2007, 05:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> It's been awhile since i escaped from California...don't know Jerry Leo, but isn't Jeff a strong pool player?
Sunnyvale Muni was perfect for my old slice drives, a few dogleg rights.. <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> You betcha...he's a strong player. I have played a few friendly sets of 8 ball and 9 ball with him. When his game is off, and mine is on, I will win....but his game is rarely off. All it takes is one mistake, and it can go either way.
Jerry is the manager at Shoreline, soon to be owner. He is also a strong player. I expect to see both of them in the Prelims of the US AM this weekend at Shoreline Billiards.</font color>

SKennedy
09-20-2007, 08:00 AM
Here in Tyler we have Stanley's BBQ, which has a pulled pork sandwhich which many of us believe is better than Neely's. If you get back over this way (Longview area)holler and I'll treat.

Deeman3
09-20-2007, 08:40 AM
Will do and if SPetty has an "End of the World" gathering, it may be sooner than you think.

Chopstick
09-20-2007, 08:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> Deeman if you've been over here lately you'd know we've already given it back (Texas to Mexico). <hr /></blockquote>


<font color="blue"> Yea, they were going to call it Texaco but the name was already taken. </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

SKennedy
09-20-2007, 09:26 AM
That will be fine. I buy the sandwiches and then I'll let you beat me in a few games of pool.
Where is SPetty? DFW area?

Deeman3
09-20-2007, 09:55 AM
Near Terrel in a secret location only disclosed by her in advance of a gathering....

SKennedy
09-20-2007, 10:27 AM
My boss, the owner and founder of the company is from Terrell. He became a widower and remarried a lady who was the County Judge there for many years.
If there is a "gathering" and although I've never been to the establishment and may not be "qualified", I'd like to attend if I am available. As you know, Terrell is just a little over an hour away from here.