View Full Version : Speaking out against the War in Iraq

09-14-2007, 12:53 PM
Sad to read that two of the authors of the letter to the editors of the New York Times were killed in Action and a third has received a Brain Damage Injury. The other 4 lives are in great danger from our Military not the enemy.

When I do the Math of 3 over 130,000, the odds of them getting killed or injured is astronomical. To complete the pick seven it would be like hitting 3 Mega Millions in a row, I wouldn't bet against.####

09-14-2007, 02:02 PM
Those are some pretty strong accusations. Surely, you don't distrust your government that much?
Now if it was someone opposed to the Clintons, why sure....

09-14-2007, 02:56 PM
Not so astronomical.

There have been about 3500 KIA's in a four year war with approximately 130,000 in country. So the probability of getting killed during a 1 year deployment is about 7 in 1000. For two, the joint probability is about 5 in 100,000, or 1 in 20,000.

The odds against aren't astronomical, but they're pretty high. However, they could be a lot lower if maybe people ain't lookin' out for you real good.

09-14-2007, 03:13 PM
Didn't I hear that these guys were killed in a vehicle turnover for going too fast? If this is a conspiracy, the other victims in the crash would have to have been in on it, right? So, they "sacrificed" themsleves by speeding to get rid of a couple young men who had already spoken up and not been censured for doing so. Wouldn't it have been easier to "friendly Fire" them in a combat situation rather than ask three other guys to sacrifice themselves? Oh! I see. That's the beauty of the plan....

These poor guys died serving their country. Just let them be honored for that. Many have died when they did not personally agree with the politics of a war. Fortunately, it's not a popular vote during war or at each decision point or many more would die while "deciding" what to do.

This war is tragic enough without even more conspiracy theories running loose. Just keep trashing Petraus and all the others who have served us and you'll soon accomplish your goals.

09-14-2007, 05:01 PM

09-14-2007, 05:55 PM
Remember #41.

09-15-2007, 09:33 AM
Dead Crab for those of us who don't know #41 please elaborate.####

09-15-2007, 10:37 AM
My error. Should have been #40, referring to Pat Tillman.

09-17-2007, 07:59 AM
Deeman what are our goals? We were lied into a War, we overthrew Saddam end of our Goal. The new Goal is to bring Democrazy where it has never been? Pretty EFFin Dumb from where I type. Everytime we turn around we have a new Goal. I say lets Impeach the Goal Kicker and the Holder of the Goal.

We only have one Goal, bring back Democrazy. Now that's worth fighting for. ####

09-17-2007, 08:15 AM
SKennedy I spent sometime in Boston and was following the Trial of the four Mafia prisoners against the FBI. It seems the FBI withheld information that would have proved them innocent. One was held for 33 years another for 28 years and the other two died in Prison.

The FBI claim was they didn't have to provide that information. Knowing they were innocent they let them rot Jail.

The Judge ruled in the Convicts Favor and awarded them 133 million dollars.

Do I trust the Govt?

09-17-2007, 09:00 AM
I don't trust them either. I just asked if you distrusted them to that extent.

09-17-2007, 10:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DeadCrab:</font><hr>
Not so astronomical.

There have been about 3500 KIA's in a four year war with approximately 130,000 in country. So the probability of getting killed during a 1 year deployment is about 7 in 1000. For two, the joint probability is about 5 in 100,000, or 1 in 20,000.

The odds against aren't astronomical, but they're pretty high. However, they could be a lot lower if maybe people ain't lookin' out for you real good.

<hr /></blockquote>

3500. During the same time period three times as many Americans were killed in their own homes by illegal aliens.

09-17-2007, 11:44 AM
SKennedy, isn't it funny how much "hot air" they blow when a simple answer would suffice? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif


09-17-2007, 11:53 AM
Sorry friend,
I can't address that issue as I'm probably one of the worst. I'm generally full of hot air and full of crap as well!

09-17-2007, 12:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Deeman what are our goals? <font color="blue"> Dick, I think our goals were to help bring a democracy to the middle east but primarily to get the people who were planning more attacks in the US to focus their efforts somewhere else (hint: Not in NYC, Washington DC) in a battle that would keep them too occupied and their resources concentrated in another part of the world so there would be less planes flying into buildings over here. </font color> We were lied into a War, we overthrew Saddam end of our Goal. <font color="blue"> No, overthrowing Saddam was never the only goal that I am aware of. I do agree that there was little thought over what would replace him. </font color> The new Goal is to bring Democrazy where it has never been? <font color="blue"> No, I think that was pretty much a part of the administration's stated plan from the beginning. </font color> Pretty EFFin Dumb from where I type. Everytime we turn around we have a new Goal. <font color="blue"> No, same goals, but as I said, prosecuted poorly.</font color> I say lets Impeach the Goal Kicker and the Holder of the Goal. <font color="blue">You now have a majority in the house and senate, so if rightous, legal and just, you can impeach him. </font color>

We only have one Goal, bring back Democrazy. Now that's worth fighting for. #### <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> No, that's just talk, like buying the little We Support the Troops Ribbons. Most fo the ones who will fight for this country are now in service. For everyone else it is just e-mails and blogs. Hell, the left won't even bother to have a march on Washington anymore. When you're so lazy (the left, not you) to get off the coutch to protest, you can't be taken that seriouly. They figure that having a couple of actors say something at the Emmys is a sufficient sacrifice and certainly above and beyond the call. The only thing a democrat will fight for these days is votes and not too hard for that. It's the noise they like.

Impeachment? The left is too buzy getting the candidates, new women and anyone else who voices sanity in line for the goose stepping.</font color>

09-19-2007, 05:44 AM
Everybody's Gone to War Lyrics

I've got a friend, he's a pure-bred killing machine,
He said he's waited his whole damn life for this,
I knew him well when he was seventeen,
Now he's a man who'll be dead by Christmas.

And, so...
Everybody's going to war,
But we don't know what we're fighting for,
Don't tell me it's a worthy cause,
No cause could be so worthy.

If love is a drug, I guess we're all sober,
If hope is a song I guess it's all over,
How to have faith, when faith is a crime?
I don't want to die...
If God's on our side, then God is a joker,
Asleep on the job, his children fall over,
Running out through the door and straight to the sky,
I don't want to die...

For every man who wants to rule the world,
There'll be a man who just wants to be free,
What do we learn but what should not be learnt?
Too late to find a cure for this disease. <hr /></blockquote>

Great song. Nerina Pallot

Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

09-19-2007, 10:18 AM
Deeman if we had 60 votes he'd be gone. DOn"T kid yourself.####

09-19-2007, 12:29 PM

If he is only supported by 30% of the U.S. population just a dozen or more points more favoribly than the Congress, it would seem the Republicans would be falling all over themsleves to cross the isle and nail him.

Seriously, If we start impeaching guys for lying Hillary will be dead from the start. Heck, first thing you know we'll be impeaching them for sexual indescretions, Oh! I forgot about that one. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

I don't believe there is a case for impeachment but at this late date, I'll not quible over it. Maybe, just maybe, we have learned our lesson and will stop electing people who are not Senators, who are a part of the solution, not a part of the problem.

I, myself, can't wait until we get an honest and non-partisan person who will always tell the absolute truth and not play politics, who will get us all absolutley free world class health care run by an efficient and careing government and protect us from the real threat, Christians and Jews.

09-19-2007, 12:52 PM
"The left is too buzy getting the candidates, new women and anyone else who voices sanity in line for the goose stepping."

Can't believe that you wrote that... the Republican led congress has been labeled a rubber stamp one....and goose stepping??? Isn't it the Bush family with the historical ties to the Nazis, even investing in I.G. Farben which made
Zyklon B, the gas used in the "ovens"
It's amazing when you research the Nazis, how many American corporations, banks were tied in with them.
If you don't vote along party lines...you can forget those committee appointments, and the lucrative networking they lead to...

Gayle in MD
09-19-2007, 12:59 PM
There have been quite a few marches against this war in Washington D.C., and they were attended by both Republicans and Democrats, and many many veterans, some who have served in Iraq, and some from both WWII, and Vietnam. In fact, there was another, just last saturday.

The original stated goal in occupying Iraq, was to destroy Saddam's WMD's, and to remove him, because he was supposed to have been supporting terrorists, and involved with alQaeda. All those things, we learned later, were not true, and this administration knew they weren't true. However, it is true that Saudi Arabis, you know, the ones Bush holds hands with, do, and have, supported terrorists, and bin Laden in particular, and are supporting terrorists in Iraq, who are killing our troops.

Not one investigation has touched on the manipulation of the intelligence, lies really, used by this administration to send our troops to war on false, self-created pretenses. Creating a democracy in Iraq, wasn't mentioned originally, only after no WMD's were found. Also, before the 9/11 investigation even began, it was stated by James Baker, they would not to look into the administration's failure to address the many warnings pre-9/11 of the coming attack. Virtually every book written by those who were giving the warnings, state that the administration only wanted to hear about Iraq. This was before 9/11. There is NO question, that we were lied into this war, and that Bush and Cheney had decided to remove Saddam before they ever got in to the White House, and that their fanatical obsession with Saddam, was the main reason why no efforts were made to prevent 9/11.

There is no question, that Saddam had been satisfactorily diluted in his power by both the Gulf War, Desert Storm, and by Desert Fox, and that even the scientists in Iraq, stated that they had no means to continue working on WMD's or Biological systems,

There is no question, that this is another campaign in the midst of a civil war, and that history has proven that as occupiers, in the midst of such a war, the occupier gets slaughtered, and does not succeed in winning hearts and minds, but instead, becomes a target for all the warring factions.

There is no question that our national security is threatened by the occupation in Iraq, that it has broken our army, emboldened our enemy, given bin Laden what he wanted, a rallying call for more terrorists to join his jihad.

There is no question, that in spite of the war in Iraq, which you seem to think will somehow distract terrorists from further terrorist attacks, has instead, created more terrorist attacks all over the world, and that alQaeda, has now franchised itself, into many many other countries, and factions. IOW, Iraq, has not distracted them, as well proven by the huge increase in attacks all over the world.

Going into Iraq, could not have been an effort to effect terrorists, or their plans, since there were none there until we went there, and the only reason why we went there was OIL, and Dick Cheney, and George Bush's long list of Texas, and other, oil billionaires, who are now signing oil deals in Iraq, and I'm quite sure, that Bush and Cheney will be well remembered by those who will make all the money off the blood of our young troops.

Our troops are dying, and Oil Billionaires profits are through the roof.

Terrorists, and terrorists attacks are up.

Our Infracture is in dire need of attention.

Our debt from this war is astronimical.

We are headed for a deep recession.

Republicans spend like drunken sailors, while they launched a war, and cut taxes, as they ran up the deficit, both national, and foreign, in trade deals that have been bad for America, good for china.

16 National Security Agencies say we are at greater risk, and that our occupation in Iraq, has emboldened our enemies, increasing their ability to recruit new Jihaddists, and greatly increased their numbers, all over the world.

If you think it is the left in this country, which isn't taken seriously, after polls show that only 5% of us trust George Bush's judgement and honesty on this idiotic war in Iraq, which he completely bungled beyond belief, I'd say, you're practicing a bit of wishful thinking.

Lastly, if a war is morally wrong, is launched on false information, has made everything much worse, and was bungled completely from the outset, what is the reason for continuing? I find it impossible to believe that there are really people in this country who think that any General, serving under George Bush, is going to level with the American People. Generals don't make policy. They just implement the orders. We have seen an entire list of Generals, axed, when they didn't agree with Bush. Have you forgotten all about them???? None of our other agency investigations into the situation in Iraq, support the administration's claims of progress? All indications are that violence has increased, deaths have increased, on both sides, Iraqis, and Americans, and that the campaign cannot continue beyond april anyway, because we do not have enough troops. Why do you wish to lose more soldiers in a losing battle, launched on false statements, that has made everything worse?

Gayle in Md.

09-19-2007, 12:59 PM
Which is why I am declaring myself a candidate...
I shall be guided by Romans 13:13
which reads: "Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying"
I can't be bought (but I can be influenced)

09-19-2007, 01:13 PM
Gayle, I'm afraid all that falls on deaf ears here...
everything you wrote, I believe in....and while it is mostly undeniable facts....nobody wants to admit they made that big a mistake buying into the lies.

09-19-2007, 01:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> "The left is too buzy getting the candidates, new women and anyone else who voices sanity in line for the goose stepping."

Can't believe that you wrote that... <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Wolfdancer,

Of course I said that. Now you are referring to what Bush's family did in the 1930's and 40's! My reference to goose stepping is in regard to the slapping of any candidate in the Democratic Party or otherwise that does not continue the "Bush is bad", scream at all costs.

"you can forget those committee appointments"..is that not exactly the point? If we can't get a candidate on either side to buck the rest of their party on any real issue, what real change is there? Your trading my corrupt government for your corrupt government.

Why will I not admit that I was deceived? I know there was and always is deception in war and the selling of that war, I, despite my objections to the way it is being waged, still think it was a better thing than the alternatives offered like:

Letting the UN broker a deal that would never happen or be enforced.

Waiting for the next batch of airplanes to hit our country.

Letting the next Presidnent deal with the situation and have them just sit and wait for the enemy to act.

I am sorry we disagree on this but, while you may be right and they would have just left us alone or allowed us to negotiate for no more attacks, I just don't buy it. It may be a retarded gene I have but as bad as war is, I believe it is mostly isolated to the Middle East by the little we have done in Iraq and Afganistan. I still really hope no one misses out on one of those committe appointments. </font color>

09-19-2007, 02:00 PM
I just feel that Iran always posed the bigger threat...but they were too busy fighting Iraq....
It may have been the right thing to do, to overthrow Saddam???? but it seems we have now let the cat out of the bag....the threat of terrorist reprisals is greater then ever, Iran is in total Chaos, we're broke, etc, etc.
If we stretch our military out any thinner....Mexico might just take the opportunity to attack, and take Texas back.
I'd be willing to give it up to avoid bloodshed, but only if they will take the entire Bush clan along with the State.

09-19-2007, 02:19 PM
Without Texas you ain't got nothin'. Just Alabama and Maryland.

Gayle in MD
09-19-2007, 02:32 PM
Deeman, respectfully, you are still lumping the war in Iraq, the illegal occupation of a foreign country, for the puspose of regime change, in with fighting the terrorists of alQaeda, who were based in Afghanistan, and are now in Pakistan, training more terroists. Best estimates, are two to five thousand alqaeda presently in Iraq. One good bombing campaign, could kill them all.

How do you justify what we've done to the Iraqi people and their country? No water, very little electircity, violence everywhere, and we've drawn terrorists into their country, were there were none before.

The war in Iraq, was illegal. We have decades of signed documents, atating that the United States will not attack another country for the purpose of regime change.

Now you see where we are, because Bush wouldn't listen to the experts, or the military Generals, how can you defend him? He's made a colossal mess of everything, and you talk about goose steppers? Sorry, I don't see how you can say that, and in fact, your statements about Democrats getting women, are kind of funny, since we've seen so many Republicans with their trophy wives at their sides, and their ex-mistresses, they screwed while they were married, are now their wives, we've had foot tapping, and prostitute paying Republicans, shop lifters, bribe takers, OMG, I can't even remember all of it, but the list of those Repuyblicans who are either in the middle of investigations, or in jail, is plenty. If there's any goose-stepping going on around here, it's on the right.

Tell me, if you will, do you think a Vice President has the right to form our national energy policy, behind closed doors, and keep the info hidden from all of us? Does a President have a right to lie to the congress in order to justify a hidden agenda? Does he have the right to change the mission, over and over, extending our troops to the point where they are commiting suicide left and right? does he have the right to launch a war, and then F it up royal, and then leave it to the next guy?

Bush has put us in this mess. He broke it, now we own it, and it's running us into massive debt, and making us less secure. How in the world can you defend him, or attack those of us who are angry about the mess he has made, now that you and we all know that he fixed the intelligence to go to war? Just think of all those who are now dead, and maimed for life. Here we are, after all this, back to the only solution to his mess, diplomacy! Diplomatic efforts, to get surrounding countries to help us out by not financing insurgents, and terrorists, into Iraq. diplomatic efforts to get the Iraqi Parliament to stop sending out the word to kill our troops. diplomatic efforts to disarm Iran, which was our true threat in the first place. Do you have any idea of the damage this man has done to our country, and you can still justify all of it because Saddam, MIGHT have had WMD? and MIGHT have used them? The British Memo stated plain and clear, Bush fixed the intelligence, around his policy, and didn't plan for the result of invading the country, and removing Saddam, and we now know, BUSH was WRONG. Worgn about everything, and incompetent. That is why people, Democrats and Republicans, are right when they say, BUSH IS BAD! Because that is putting it mildly!

You shouldn't lump the occupation of Iraq, with the terrorist that attacked us on 9/11, or with fighting terrorism in general. Iraq, the war, how it ends, when it ends, none of that has a damn thing to do with bin Laden, and his ability to attack us, because Bush dropped the ball in Afghanistan, and al Qaeda has now regrouped. IOW, Bush dropped the ball on the people who were our true threat, Iran, North Korea, and bin Laden. The two events, 9/11, and occupying Iraq, were completely un-connected. Iraq, had nothing to do with 9/11. Why aren't you angry that Bush went after the wrong man? And because we now know that Saddam was no immediate threat? Do you know how many intelligence people tried to tell Bush and Cheney that very thing? Republicans have made a mess of EVERYTHING!!! The economy, the war, the terrorist movement, our laws and our Constitution, under attack by an authoritarian Nazi like George Bush, and Dick Cheney, who were allowed to continue making everything worse because Republicans would rather see morer of our troops die, than to admuit that their party has destroyed so much, failed over and over, and given Bush a blank check to lie and break the laws, over and over. You think Bush and Cheney give a damn about all the people they have hurt and killed? Hell no. They'll be making money off this war for years after they get out. Why do you think the energy meetings were kept secret? We will fight them over here, because they're still growing, and a bigger threat than ever, thanks to George Bush, and Dick Cheney.

Gayle in Md.