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Cornerman
09-27-2007, 06:14 AM
I went back to the table last night just to shoot the shot when I spotted a tool that had a degree measurement on it. So, I checked my peace sign, and it's closer to 40 degrees, not 30 degrees. Obviously, this isn't a trivial correction.

So, if everyone tried my system taking the time to measure out 30 degrees, you'll have missed high every time. Sorry about that. I'll go edit my diagram.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AALX3BALo1PFRb3QDRA3UALX3UeMw1kFRb3kDAi3qINj{ma jor_edit:_peace_sign_angle,_not_30_degrees}&ZZ1uDC C@

What's more important is that you have a legal tool for repeatability. The reason this even came up was that I had to shoot a frozen pair during a match, and it wasn't frozen on the spot. I did the peace sign thing, and of course, my teammates were wondering what the hell I was doing. LOL!!

Fred

Vapros
09-27-2007, 11:04 AM
Fred, if I understand your explanation of this shot correctly, everyone who tries to use it will develop an aiming spot on the short rail and shoot the front ball toward that spot from any cue ball location on the table and no need to place the cue ball in line with the aiming line. Is that correct? Your first diagram indicated a low hit on the cue ball. Is that to get it out of the way or to get the front ball in motion to the pocket?

I know players who shoot that shot from about the location you showed, using extreme draw and some right english added, hoping to make the front ball directly and the back ball off a long two-rail bank. They claim they can make them both, but I don't recall ever seeing it done. I've seen either ball go, but not both. Comments? Thanks.

Deeman3
09-27-2007, 12:00 PM
Vapros,

I may be wrong but I believe the shot is not possible without the cue ball at or at least very near the location Fred has illustrated. I also think you are correct in that the shot must be hit with a ton of draw. I have made this (second ball) but not applying Fred's new technique. I have to say, my success rate was not great. I'll try it out tonight but when Fred comes up with something like this, it usually works exactly as he says.

I have not tried to make both balls at once as I recall but I think it would be possible with the throw from the first ball but might require a bit more of an approach angle than this situation allows. I'll have a swing at it tonight as well.

okinawa77
09-27-2007, 12:40 PM
I tried this last night, and what Fred said is correct. I missed high almost every time. I also noticed that...yes, you can pocket both balls. And yes, you do need a lot of draw. To pocket both balls, the head ball hits very high on the rail..in order to bank to the other (left) corner pocket. The back ball double banks into the right corner pocket.

Cornerman
09-27-2007, 02:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vapros:</font><hr> Fred, if I understand your explanation of this shot correctly, everyone who tries to use it will develop an aiming spot on the short rail and shoot the front ball toward that spot from any cue ball location on the table and no need to place the cue ball in line with the aiming line. Is that correct?<hr /></blockquote>I think you have to be in a direct line or at least nearly straight in.



[ QUOTE ]
Your first diagram indicated a low hit on the cue ball. Is that to get it out of the way or to get the front ball in motion to the pocket?<hr /></blockquote> I think this is correct. I think that without draw, the first object ball sort of gets interference from the cueball.

[ QUOTE ]
I know players who shoot that shot from about the location you showed, using extreme draw and some right english added, hoping to make the front ball directly and the back ball off a long two-rail bank. They claim they can make them both, but I don't recall ever seeing it done. I've seen either ball go, but not both. Comments? Thanks. <hr /></blockquote> I've never seen either ball go in either, but many claims have been made. So, there must be several people out there that can do it. I haven't seen it. When I see people try it, I see both balls gathering, but not going in.

Fred

Bob_Jewett
09-27-2007, 04:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> ... I think you have to be in a direct line or at least nearly straight in. ... <hr /></blockquote>
I think it is sufficient to land the cue ball in the correct place. The aim might be slightly different if you come from one side or the other, but I'm certain that you can drive the front object ball through, and the directness of "through" depends on how fully the front ball is driven into the back ball. For example, I can imagine that from the side pocket, you would actually want to land the cue ball with all three in line and the throw and "through" would take the front ball to the pocket.

okinawa77
09-27-2007, 05:37 PM
I tried this shot some more during lunch...on my new Olhausen 8ft table w/simonis. I positioned the cue ball about half a diamond from the center diamond, and I was able to pocket the ball more consistently than last night on a used 9 ft Olhausen w/shimmed pockets.

I did notice, that the draw is needed...otherwise the head object ball will be struck by the back ball...especially if the 2 balls are not frozen correctly (straight along the long center string).

I also found that hitting the head ball straight on with accuracy is essential...especially on tight pocket tables.

Vapros
09-27-2007, 06:13 PM
Okinawa, are you shooting this as a bank shot, to make it in the left corner pocket? The shot I mentioned is intended to make both balls in the top right pocket, as in one-pocket. No point in making one in each pocket.

okinawa77
09-27-2007, 11:07 PM
Vapros,

I just set up the shot and shot it. I pocketed both balls in the same pocket, the right corner...but I scratched in the left side pocket. I have it on video, but as I just got the camera a couple days ago...I probably won't figure out how to upload the video and post it, any time soon.

But to answer your question, yes. Last night, I was shooting to bank and make both balls in seperate pockets. I was shooting this shot with Straight Pool in mind. Probably because the straight pool league operator was at the next table, and told me he will never set me up with that safety ever again....now that I know how to pocket the balls.

But after shooting this recent shot, I see this as a great one pocket shot...If I can keep from scratching.