PDA

View Full Version : Teaching a newbie



steve617
09-28-2007, 10:40 PM
We just bought our new table today and my daughter who really want to learn is mis hitting the cue ball. She is going to take lessons starting in a couple weeks from a Lady Pro/Instructor. Any suggestions untill her lessons start. I assume the more she plays the better she should get. Thanks for any advice.

KAM007
09-29-2007, 01:09 AM
I would suggest having her practice at aiming at the cueball without trying to make a ball. Set the cueball up on the headstring and have her shoot the cueball down to the foot of the table and see if she can get the cueball to come back up and tap the end of her pool cue. This is a stroke training lesson that I was taught when I first started playing. Also, very important to chalk the cue before shooting. Enjoy!

1Time
09-29-2007, 03:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote steve617:</font><hr> We just bought our new table today and my daughter who really want to learn is mis hitting the cue ball. She is going to take lessons starting in a couple weeks from a Lady Pro/Instructor. Any suggestions untill her lessons start. I assume the more she plays the better she should get. Thanks for any advice. <hr /></blockquote>

Show her how to chalk the cue. If necessary, put two pieces of tape on the grip of the cue about 6 inches apart to show her where to put her back hand. Show her a bridge to use off the rail. Have her place the CB about 8 inches from the rail for each shot, and have her shoot the CB towards any of the diamonds of the other rails, without object balls.

pooltchr
09-29-2007, 03:51 AM
It might help if we knew her age. I would take a different approach with a very young player than I would with a teenager.
Steve

steve617
09-29-2007, 04:30 AM
She is 15

Fran Crimi
09-29-2007, 07:03 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If necessary, put two pieces of tape on the grip of the cue about 6 inches apart to show her where to put her back hand <hr /></blockquote>


I just measured the width of my back hand. It's 3 inches.

Are you suggesting she should place her back hand on the same spot every time she shoots?

Fran

1Time
09-29-2007, 08:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
If necessary, put two pieces of tape on the grip of the cue about 6 inches apart to show her where to put her back hand <hr /></blockquote>




I just measured the width of my back hand. It's 3 inches.

Are you suggesting she should place her back hand on the same spot every time she shoots?

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Yes, placing her back hand within a 6 inch area on the grip for every shot while shooting the drill I suggested will help her miscue problem. However, the taped area should not be used once she begins instruction with the pro and should no longer be needed.

okinawa77
09-30-2007, 11:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
If necessary, put two pieces of tape on the grip of the cue about 6 inches apart to show her where to put her back hand <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue"> I don't agree with 1Time's tape positions. According to Willie Mosconi, you should find the balance point and grip the cue 6 to 8 inches behind it. Most cues have the balance point about 4 inches from the beginning of the wrap. Therefore, your grip should ideally be 2-4 inches from the beginning of the wrap (forearm side)....but that is contingent on the assumption that the cue is the correct length for the shooter based on the shooter's height. If the shooter is taller than normal, then they would grip the cue farther back....because having your arm bent at 90 degrees during contact with the cue ball is more important that holding the cue at the ideal position. Holding the cue 6-8 inches from the balance point is mainly for feel.

Also, instead of using tape, your can use a rubber band or a string. Glue residue from tape can damage the wrap. </font color>



I just measured the width of my back hand. It's 3 inches.

Are you suggesting she should place her back hand on the same spot every time she shoots?

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Yes, placing her back hand within a 6 inch area on the grip for every shot while shooting the drill I suggested will help her miscue problem. However, the taped area should not be used once she begins instruction with the pro and should no longer be needed. <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> </font color>

okinawa77
09-30-2007, 12:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote KAM007:</font><hr> I would suggest having her practice at aiming at the cueball without trying to make a ball. Set the cueball up on the headstring and have her shoot the cueball down to the foot of the table and see if she can get the cueball to come back up and tap the end of her pool cue. This is a stroke training lesson that I was taught when I first started playing. Also, very important to chalk the cue before shooting. Enjoy! <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue"> Another drill for conditioning your aim...is the bottle technique. Stroke the tip in and of the hole, nearly touching the back of bottle each time, but without contacting any part of the bottle. Buddy Hall has a stroke training device that uses the same concept.

As far as the foot spot-down and back drill....it's okay for beginners. As she progresses, she can add 2 balls at the foot spot, foot rail, and head rail. Stroking the cue ball down and back between the 3 pairs of balls will test the straightness of the stroke. Thus indicating any flaws in the execution of her stroke. I personally like to place an object ball frozen along the long rail (foot side) with the cue ball frozen on the same long rail (head side). In order to pocket the object ball with the cue ball stopping at the object balls location, you have to have a perfectly straight stroke/aim....but that is contingent on having a good table that does not have noticeable imperfections on the rails (side pocket) and/or cloth (table roll). I practice this drill, then go to the 3 pairs foot spot-up and down drill, and it is no problem in comparison to the long rail drill. A friend of mine gave me this long rail drill, which he got from a pro. Even pros have a hard time with this drill, but it will indicate any flaws/imperfections in your stroke.

Recently, I have started using a new cue and experimenting with the slip stroke. I lost my last 3 league matches, and barley missed qualifying for the US Amateur Championships. I played Friday in a local pool tournament and lost badly. Yesterday, I played in an MVP (league top shooter) tournament, and won. The reason I won was because I went back to my foundation and shot only dead center cue ball (no english). I started running out racks and playing flawless safety shots. I cannot stress enough the importance of shooting center ball. You can play and win at any type of billiards game using nothing but center ball....and adjusting your stroke intensity in order to get position for your next shot. Using center ball makes projection of the cue balls track line more predictable. Especially, when predicting the track line 3 or more rails. </font color>

steve617
09-30-2007, 12:21 PM
We had a lesson last night on hitting the center of the ball I used the drill as discussed above. I have never used the drill myself so after I tried it I seen that it will be a good help for her and my wife. My daughters cue has several places were she could reference so I got her were I thought would be good place for her to hold the cue so at least it is consistant. I switced her from a closed bridge to a open bridge and actually seen a lot of improvment. As for my wife she is a little more behind my daughter, her problem is her stroke is not level she wants to go upward with the cue tip when hitting the ball a lot was trying to hit to hard. I told her not to try to bust the balls. lol Anyway after her doing the drill and easing up she done better also. I told my daughter when she starts her lesson to forget evry thing I told her. Just having the table now for 2 days they are doing decent. Thanks everyone for helping me instruct the family

okinawa77
09-30-2007, 12:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote steve617:</font><hr> We just bought our new table today and my daughter who really want to learn is mis hitting the cue ball. She is going to take lessons starting in a couple weeks from a Lady Pro/Instructor. Any suggestions untill her lessons start. I assume the more she plays the better she should get. Thanks for any advice. <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue"> Steve, find out which of her eyes is the dominant eye. This will help determine how she should sight/aim. It is rare that a person has a mix match of hand dominance and eye dominance because they usually pair up the same (example: right handedness with right eye dominance.) If she is right handed, but left eye dominant, then her stance/sighting will be different. The key point is to have the dominant eye position directly above the cue.

But in my case, I am ambiodextrous...meaning I am equally as coordinated left handed as I am right handed. In order to prevent mis-sighting/aiming when I go back and forth from left to right handed, I position the cue directly below my nose. Therefore, I am using both eyes, and when I change hands, I do not have to change my sighting/aiming position. This is a very rare sighting technique and not recommended, but it works for me. </font color>

steve617
09-30-2007, 02:31 PM
I will have her check. Me being right handed I am left eye dominant. I shoot pool left handed, shoot a gun and bow left handed also. Everything else I am a righty. My wife is left handed amd ios shooting pool left handed. She tried switching righty to see if she did better. I told her not too. So to make sure I will do a triangle test to make sure. Thanks

1Time
09-30-2007, 02:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr>
<font color="blue"> I don't agree with 1Time's tape positions. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

okinawa77,

You misunderstood my post and missed its point.

The tape (or rubberbands as you wisely suggested) are used as markers to guide the student within a small range where to put the back hand. I suggested the father place these markers where appropriate for this student and for this exercise. I did not specify where it should be placed because it seemed the father was capable of determining this on his own, and I did not suggest this location would be the same for all players or all shots. And what specifically works best for pros is entirely irrelevant since the object of this guide and exercise was simply to get the student to make solid contact with the CB until a pro begins one on one instruction.

I suggested use of this guide with this specific exercise: bridge off the rail and shoot with the CB about 8" from the rail. If the markers are placed anywhere near what helps the student establish proper mechanics, this guide will help practically any beginner execute the drill I suggested. The father reported a miscue problem with a beginner. This guide and drill is the easiest and most effective way I know of to get a beginner to make solid contact with a CB. I also left it up to the father to handle the bridge and stance. With such simple instruction, the use of this guide and this drill, practically any beginner will soon learn how to hit the CB without miscues. I taught this to my 7 and 9 year olds years ago and they picked it up with ease. Of course once they strayed away from the drill, the learning curve began and they resumed miscuing.

1Time
09-30-2007, 02:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote steve617:</font><hr> I told my daughter when she starts her lesson to forget evry thing I told her. <hr /></blockquote>

This is good advice, and it is wise of you to get her pro instruction so early on. Glad to hear you're all enjoying the new table.

okinawa77
09-30-2007, 04:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr>
<font color="blue"> I don't agree with 1Time's tape positions. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

okinawa77,

You misunderstood my post and missed its point.

The tape (or rubberbands as you wisely suggested) are used as markers to guide the student within a small range where to put the back hand. I suggested the father place these markers where appropriate for this student and for this exercise. I did not specify where it should be placed because it seemed the father was capable of determining this on his own, and I did not suggest this location would be the same for all players or all shots. And what specifically works best for pros is entirely irrelevant since the object of this guide and exercise was simply to get the student to make solid contact with the CB until a pro begins one on one instruction.

I suggested use of this guide with this specific exercise: bridge off the rail and shoot with the CB about 8" from the rail. If the markers are placed anywhere near what helps the student establish proper mechanics, this guide will help practically any beginner execute the drill I suggested. The father reported a miscue problem with a beginner. This guide and drill is the easiest and most effective way I know of to get a beginner to make solid contact with a CB. I also left it up to the father to handle the bridge and stance. With such simple instruction, the use of this guide and this drill, practically any beginner will soon learn how to hit the CB without miscues. I taught this to my 7 and 9 year olds years ago and they picked it up with ease. Of course once they strayed away from the drill, the learning curve began and they resumed miscuing. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> I see. Yes, it appears I misunderstood. I apologize. You are correct. It is important to establish a point of origin for your grip hand for beginners. The 6-8 inches behind the balance point technique is a basic guide that originates from the arm position at moment of impact concept.

That fact that Steve stated she is shooting better with an open bridge as opposed to a closed bridge, leads me to think she is crouching very low, like a rifle stance or what I call a sniper stance ( with the eye within inches of the cue ). I find that sighting is more efficient with the open bridge when taking this low crouch stance. The closed bridge is more optimal when using a mid to high crouch.

When I first starting playing, I used an open bridge, and I noticed occasional miscues. I found that pushing downward with my grip (back) hand during the stroke would allow the cue to stay firmly pressed upon my bridge hand, and thus ensuring less miscues.</font color>

1Time
09-30-2007, 07:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr>
<font color="blue"> I see. Yes, it appears I misunderstood. I apologize. You are correct. It is important to establish a point of origin for your grip hand for beginners. The 6-8 inches behind the balance point technique is a basic guide that originates from the arm position at moment of impact concept.

That fact that Steve stated she is shooting better with an open bridge as opposed to a closed bridge, leads me to think she is crouching very low, like a rifle stance or what I call a sniper stance ( with the eye within inches of the cue ). I find that sighting is more efficient with the open bridge when taking this low crouch stance. The closed bridge is more optimal when using a mid to high crouch.

When I first starting playing, I used an open bridge, and I noticed occasional miscues. I found that pushing downward with my grip (back) hand during the stroke would allow the cue to stay firmly pressed upon my bridge hand, and thus ensuring less miscues.</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

No problem.

For the purposes of an experienced father instructing a beginner who is awaiting pro instruction, I consider the 6-8 inch guide not applicable.

It's not uncommon for beginners to perform better with an open bridge and regardless of the type of stance used.

Miscues from a beginner using any kind of bridge first indicates poor mechanics, and that should be properly addressed before considering any specialized adaptations.

SKennedy
09-30-2007, 08:54 PM
I would start a new thread, but don't know how. Was just curious about eye dominance. I understand how it works for me in shooting a shotgun, but I never considered it important relative to pool. I am right-handed, but my left eye is dominant. I shoot pool right-handed, but do not place my left eye over the cue for "sighting." I just use both eyes and pretty much line up the shot with my nose or maybe right eye centered for the shot. Maybe I should center my left eye over the "shot?" Maybe that's why I'm not yet a pro!! LOL!!

1Time
09-30-2007, 10:13 PM
I've never considered the right/left eye dominant thing important for my pool game, but then my stance is semi-upright.

Once, just to freak out the on-lookers and my competitors, I played several games on a bar box without loss while not once looking directly at the table or the balls, only looking above the table and occasionally at others, and only using my peripheral vision to play. It surprised me how easy and effective this was.

okinawa77
09-30-2007, 11:00 PM
That interesting. I usually use my peripheral for the object balls path to the pocket. I focus on the cue ball first, then look at the object ball, and use my peripheral to size up the pocket. This story reminds me of a trick someone showed me, and I think it might be a good way to train beginners with finding the object balls contact point.

Take a single light bulb and hang it directly above the center spot from the table. I don't remember the height, but any normal height should be fine. When shooting at object balls, aim at the light's reflection on the object ball. I was quite surprised when I tried this. When I first started playing pool, I couldn't run more than 4 balls and inning. I tried this trick, and could run 8 or more balls an inning.

1Time
10-01-2007, 12:55 AM
Here's a story of a feat that most knowledgeable pool players consider unbelievable and impossible. Back in '86 shortly before the movie "The Color of Money" came out, Keith McCready was shooting at a pool hall I frequented in Vegas. I watched practically everything he did at the pool tables, and the most amazing thing he did was pocketing object balls by shooting the CB into them while using no back swing to his stroke such that the cue's tip held contact with the CB throughout a few inches of this follow through type stroke. Most hearing this immediately declare this to be impossible and that at best the cue tip will double hit. Not so, if done correctly.

Having seen this feat performed by Keith a few times and being one fairly gifted at imitating the pool shooting of others, I felt challenged to learn how to do this. So the next afternoon after spending about 2 hours of trying to learn it, I did, and I began pocketing balls with this stroke. The technique is highly dependent on the speed and acceleration of the follow through. The cue's tip is held fairly near the CB like when one ordinarily addresses the CB.

I then played a guy on a bar box using this stroke for every shot except the break and upon my opponent getting tired of losing he accused me of pushing the cue ball with my cue and claimed my way of shooting to be illegal. I told him there's no such rule limiting the length of time the cue's tip may remain in contact with the CB, and that it's a good shot so long as the cue tip contacts the CB only once per shot. On subsequent days I found this shot increasingly difficult to repeat without continuing to practice it. So I returned to shooting my normal stroke and haven't performed this shooting technique since.

SKennedy
10-01-2007, 10:29 AM
I actually employ that type of shot when I have the CB frozen to the object ball and wish to throw the object ball in the direction I'm pushing my cue tip.

dr_dave
10-01-2007, 12:10 PM
Dominant eye debates have been around a long time. No matter how much it is discussed and debated, I think some people will still strongly disagree with your ideas.

FYI, you can read some highlights and click on links to past debates under "aiming" - "dominant eye" here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads.html).

Regards,
Dave
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote steve617:</font><hr> We just bought our new table today and my daughter who really want to learn is mis hitting the cue ball. She is going to take lessons starting in a couple weeks from a Lady Pro/Instructor. Any suggestions untill her lessons start. I assume the more she plays the better she should get. Thanks for any advice. <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue"> Steve, find out which of her eyes is the dominant eye. This will help determine how she should sight/aim. It is rare that a person has a mix match of hand dominance and eye dominance because they usually pair up the same (example: right handedness with right eye dominance.) If she is right handed, but left eye dominant, then her stance/sighting will be different. The key point is to have the dominant eye position directly above the cue.

But in my case, I am ambiodextrous...meaning I am equally as coordinated left handed as I am right handed. In order to prevent mis-sighting/aiming when I go back and forth from left to right handed, I position the cue directly below my nose. Therefore, I am using both eyes, and when I change hands, I do not have to change my sighting/aiming position. This is a very rare sighting technique and not recommended, but it works for me. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

1Time
10-01-2007, 12:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> I actually employ that type of shot when I have the CB frozen to the object ball and wish to throw the object ball in the direction I'm pushing my cue tip.
<hr /></blockquote>

Right, same idea. I've shot that shot several times and not before now considered it similar to the shot I described. It just takes a much more specific stroke when hitting a free standing CB.

SKennedy
10-01-2007, 01:26 PM
At times I have employed a similar stroke. However, I find that I am somewhat inconsistent as my follow through is sometimes not what it should be and the object ball or CB fall short of their mark. I think the inconsistent follow through is a result of no backstroke. Therefore, I rarely use it, such as the case mentioned in my previous post.

1Time
10-01-2007, 01:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> At times I have employed a similar stroke. However, I find that I am somewhat inconsistent as my follow through is sometimes not what it should be and the object ball or CB fall short of their mark. I think the inconsistent follow through is a result of no backstroke. Therefore, I rarely use it, such as the case mentioned in my previous post. <hr /></blockquote>

Regarding the CB frozen to the object ball push shot, I consider it a fairly simple and similar shot. This shot has a similar feel to the CB alone shot I described.

I recall often stroking this CB alone shot with my follow through swerving off to the left or right, not a straight through stroke, to curve the path of the CB while the cue's tip was still in contact, and I usually used this technique in combination with outside english. A straight on shot requiring the CB to stop or back up was a little more tricky. Effecting much of a draw or follow was too hard and risky because of the limitations of the stroke.

SPetty
10-01-2007, 01:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> I would start a new thread, but don't know how.<hr /></blockquote>From the main forum, along the top are the menus Main Index | Search | My Home | etc.

Then below that is a white space.

Then below that is a gray background space that starts with Cue Chalk Board &gt;&gt; Cue Chalk Board. Just to the right of that is a little icon that looks like this http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/images/newpost.gif with the word Post next to it. Click on http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/images/newpost.gif Post to start a new thread.

wolfdancer
10-01-2007, 02:04 PM
Cyclops did not have this problem when he played...I think binocular vision corrects the dominant eye thing...

SPetty
10-01-2007, 02:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> I watched practically everything he did at the pool tables, and the most amazing thing he did was pocketing object balls by shooting the CB into them while using no back swing to his stroke such that the cue's tip held contact with the CB throughout a few inches of this follow through type stroke. <hr /></blockquote>Isn't that a push shot? If not, then what is the definition of a push shot? Isn't a push shot a foul?

BCA
3.24 PUSH SHOT FOULS
It is a foul if the cue ball is pushed by the cue tip, with contact being maintained for more than the momentary time commensurate with a stroked shot. (Such shots are usually referred to as push shots.)

1Time
10-01-2007, 02:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> I watched practically everything he did at the pool tables, and the most amazing thing he did was pocketing object balls by shooting the CB into them while using no back swing to his stroke such that the cue's tip held contact with the CB throughout a few inches of this follow through type stroke. <hr /></blockquote>Isn't that a push shot? If not, then what is the definition of a push shot? Isn't a push shot a foul?

BCA
3.24 PUSH SHOT FOULS
It is a foul if the cue ball is pushed by the cue tip, with contact being maintained for more than the momentary time commensurate with a stroked shot. (Such shots are usually referred to as push shots.)

<hr /></blockquote>

Yes. Upon reading the rule you posted, I can't imagine the shot I described to be anything but an illegal push shot. The rule usually applies to when a CB is frozen to an object ball or balls. Apparently I owe my opponent back in '86 an apology. Thanks

SKennedy
10-01-2007, 02:18 PM
Thanks for the new post tip and also, does this mean my frozen CB and OB stroke is illegal? Only if my opponent knows about it..right?

1Time
10-01-2007, 02:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> Thanks for the new post tip and also, does this mean my frozen CB and OB stroke is illegal? Only if my opponent knows about it..right? <hr /></blockquote>

Whether it is illegal depends on what the rules are at the outset of the game or later gets determined during the course of the game. Whether an illegal shot gets called is another matter.

1Time
10-03-2007, 06:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> Thanks for the new post tip and also, does this mean my frozen CB and OB stroke is illegal? Only if my opponent knows about it..right? <hr /></blockquote>

Whether it is illegal depends on what the rules are at the outset of the game or later gets determined during the course of the game. Whether an illegal shot gets called is another matter. <hr /></blockquote>

Just to add on to my previous response. The way I shoot the CB frozen to object ball shot so as not to get called for pushing (if I suspect this may happen), is to elevate the butt of my cue to at least a 45 degree angle to the table. However, I'm oblivious to what any written rules or techniques are for preventing such a foul.

SPetty
10-04-2007, 02:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>The way I shoot the CB frozen to object ball shot so as not to get called for pushing (if I suspect this may happen), is to elevate the butt of my cue to at least a 45 degree angle to the table. However, I'm oblivious to what any written rules or techniques are for preventing such a foul. <hr /></blockquote>Here is (a part of) a written rule. You are not required to elevate if the balls are touching. Your "45 degree rule" is for use when the balls are not touching.

BCA 3.23
FOULS BY DOUBLE HITS
If the cue ball is touching the required object ball prior to the shot, the player may shoot toward it, providing that any normal stroke is employed. If the cue stick strikes the cue ball more than once on a shot, or if the cue stick is in contact with the cue ball when or after the cue ball contacts an object ball, the shot is a foul.

1Time
10-04-2007, 02:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>Here is (a part of) a written rule. You are not required to elevate if the balls are touching. Your "45 degree rule" is for use when the balls are not touching.

BCA 3.23
FOULS BY DOUBLE HITS
If the cue ball is touching the required object ball prior to the shot, the player may shoot toward it, providing that any normal stroke is employed. If the cue stick strikes the cue ball more than once on a shot, or if the cue stick is in contact with the cue ball when or after the cue ball contacts an object ball, the shot is a foul. <hr /></blockquote>

Okay, thanks. So from this it seems this push shot technique is legal if the CB is frozen to an object ball. Good to know.

SPetty
10-05-2007, 10:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>Here is (a part of) a written rule. You are not required to elevate if the balls are touching. Your "45 degree rule" is for use when the balls are not touching.

BCA 3.23
FOULS BY DOUBLE HITS
If the cue ball is touching the required object ball prior to the shot, the player may shoot toward it, providing that any normal stroke is employed. If the cue stick strikes the cue ball more than once on a shot, or if the cue stick is in contact with the cue ball when or after the cue ball contacts an object ball, the shot is a foul. <hr /></blockquote>

Okay, thanks. So from this it seems this push shot technique is legal if the CB is frozen to an object ball. Good to know. <hr /></blockquote>Don't forget the "normal stroke" part of the rule. The push shot technique described earlier in the thread where the cue is pushed through the cue ball without a back swing of any kind is not a "normal stroke" and is likely an illegal push shot. Although some players do "get away" with it, I don't know of any case that a push shot is a legal shot.

SKennedy
10-05-2007, 01:30 PM
If the CB and OB are in contact how can the 2 balls not be in contact with each other when the tip is in contact with the CB? You could state that any shot (with frozen CB and OB) would be a foul based upon that portion of the rule. However, we know that's not true. Therefore, we need to look at the "intent" of the rule. Try discussing "intent" with the blokes down at "Mom's Biker Bar!"

wolfdancer
10-05-2007, 01:40 PM
If the CB and OB are in contact how can the 2 balls not be in contact with each other when the tip is in contact with the CB?
As Earl Strickland one pointed out to the ref...they're touching, but they're not frozen

Deeman3
10-05-2007, 01:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> As Earl Strickland one pointed out to the ref...they're touching, but they're not frozen <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> MY GOD! LEAVE EARL AND BRITTANI ALONE! Booo, Hoooo, Hoooo </font color>

SKennedy
10-05-2007, 04:02 PM
Deeman? You named them (your balls) Earl and Brittani? I only got one..hence I named it "Ace!" It's not frozen either.

SKennedy
10-05-2007, 04:04 PM
P.S. It's sad when I resport to discussing someone's balls! It's been a long week and I'm really tired. Sorry about that Deeman.

ripper144
11-06-2007, 01:42 AM
First of all don't listen to all that bull that some of the so called experts are trying to explain to you, it will only confuse and ruin your daughters experience. Just let her shoot however she wants and dont ever tell her shes doing it wrong. Let her shoot as much as she wants and tell her the most important thing is to make the balls into the pockets, and she should never worry about scratching or anything more complicated like that. Once she learns how to shoot she will know so much that I dont have the time to explain........... Let her be a shooter.

av84fun
11-10-2007, 01:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote steve617:</font><hr> The key point is to have the dominant eye position directly above the cue.

That's pretty controversial advice. Eye dominance is more related to rifle/shotgun shooting. Since the gun CANNOT be shot from the center of your chest, you have no choice other than to shoot from one shoulder or the other.

If the shooter is "cross-dominant" then problems arise because he/she is forced to have the non-dominant eye sighting down the gun barrel.

But a cue stick can...and should be in my opinion...placed directly under the chin. Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule...like Karen Corr and Niels for example but the VAST majority of top pros place the cue directly under their chins...not necessarily ON their chin like Allison but directly below it.

That way it doesn't matter which eye is dominant...which is the point of doing it that way.

Of course, just my personal opinion.

Regards,
Jim