PDA

View Full Version : stroke "best practices" flowchart and check-list



dr_dave
10-04-2007, 08:43 AM
I just posted some additional stroke "best practices" documents under "summaries" in the instructor and student resources section of my website (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/index.html). I am hoping people will have some comments or recommendations for improvement.

One document is a graphical flowchart with photos illustrating the stroke "best practices" (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_flowchart.pdf). The other is a comprehensive check-list that can be used with video analysis and coaching. Both are based on the stroke "best practices" document (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf).

I have created these documents with input from many people and various resources (numerous books, articles, past CCB postings, etc.). Please feel free to use the documents in your teaching and practice. Also, please let me know if you think anything is missing or inappropriate.

Thanks,
Dave

1Time
10-04-2007, 12:53 PM
The Stroke “Best Practices” Routine page looks pretty geeked up to me. I'd rate it a 5 out of 10 for thoroughness and usefulness.

First, it's an attempt to describe only one of a few successful ways people shoot.

Second, it is incomplete.

Third, it does not account for shots that require an other than smooth stroke.

Forth, I've never seen anyone with a decent stroke pause before stroking forward. Doing so is a drill golfers use and may be useful for instructing pool, but it is practically never used in the normal course of a stroke. The fact that the cue changes directions during the stroke does not constitute the necessity of a pause.

Deeman3
10-04-2007, 01:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>Forth, I've never seen anyone with a decent stroke pause before stroking forward. Doing so is a drill golfers use and may be useful for instructing pool, but it is practically never used in the normal course of a stroke. The fact that the cue changes directions during the stroke does not constitute the necessity of a pause. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">Then you have not been paying attention to a few of the top players in the world. </font color>

wolfdancer
10-04-2007, 01:11 PM
I may be wrong here.....but I believe the pause is taught as part of the SPFF stroke.
And while I haven't checked out the stroke suggestions just yet,...isn't it in reference to just a shot that does call for a normal stroke?
A good portion of the league players that I have seen....play with a very poor stroke, as I did for so many years....I'm sure this would get them on the path to a good stroke...and wish it was around when I first began...
I'll go check it out

wolfdancer
10-04-2007, 01:19 PM
I think it's all good info...if you move your eyes from cue tip to object ball and back, as most instructors suggest....I've read where it takes "time" for the eyes to refocus...the pause gives the eyes that time.
If my back swing was as long as the player depicted...I'd probably forget which ball I was shooting at, by the time I reached the the end.

wolfdancer
10-04-2007, 01:37 PM
You mean.................
we actually................
agree on something.........?
Now about the Hillary Campaign....you aboard?

Deeman3
10-04-2007, 01:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> You mean.................
we actually................
agree on something.........?
Now about the Hillary Campaign....you aboard? <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> I will, as promised, be her staunchest supporter. She will get my vote in the democratic primary. If possible as in the Democratic mold, I'll vote for ehr several times. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif</font color>

1Time
10-04-2007, 02:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>Forth, I've never seen anyone with a decent stroke pause before stroking forward. Doing so is a drill golfers use and may be useful for instructing pool, but it is practically never used in the normal course of a stroke. The fact that the cue changes directions during the stroke does not constitute the necessity of a pause. <hr /></blockquote>



<font color="blue">Then you have not been paying attention to a few of the top players in the world. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Oh, okay, perhaps I overlooked these few. However, that a "few" top players in the world pause during their stroke, supports my main objection with dr_dave's list. It's certainly not common, is only one way to stroke successfully, and by no means has been established as the best practice.

dr_dave
10-04-2007, 02:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>If my back swing was as long as the player depicted...I'd probably forget which ball I was shooting at, by the time I reached the the end.<hr /></blockquote>I also thought this person's back-swing was a bit long, but he is a top player in this region, with perfect "text-book" form. When I asked him why he used such a long back-swing, he said it allows him to accelerate more smoothly and keep his stroke straighter. That makes sense to me, but I think that's one of those personal preference sort of things. Some people might be more accurate and consistent with a shorter, punchier stroke.

Regards,
Dave

1Time
10-04-2007, 02:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> When I asked him why he used such a long back-swing, he said it allows him to accelerate more smoothly and keep his stroke straighter. <hr /></blockquote>

This is how I explain my slightly longer than usual back swing when putting a golf ball, but is not translated to my pool stroke. BTW, I play bogey golf and at best had a 13 handicap.

I think the point of dr_dave's list etc. is to provide a general rule of thumb type of guidance for a pool stroke. However, for this purpose I find it too narrow and incomplete.

dr_dave
10-04-2007, 02:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>The Stroke “Best Practices” Routine page looks pretty geeked up to me.<hr /></blockquote>I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean it is too detailed and technical, maybe you would prefer the graphical flowchart with pictures (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_flowchart.pdf). /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>First, it's an attempt to describe only one of a few successful ways people shoot.<hr /></blockquote>Exactly! That's why the document (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf) is labeled "best practices." That implies a list of suggestions that represent the "orthodox" and "text-book" technique recommended by most qualified and experienced instructors.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>Second, it is incomplete.<hr /></blockquote>I would be happy to hear what you think is missing.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>Third, it does not account for shots that require an other than smooth stroke.<hr /></blockquote>That's not the point. The point is to recommend "best practices" for a typical stroke used on normal shots.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>Forth, I've never seen anyone with a decent stroke pause before stroking forward. Doing so is a drill golfers use and may be useful for instructing pool, but it is practically never used in the normal course of a stroke. The fact that the cue changes directions during the stroke does not constitute the necessity of a pause.<hr /></blockquote>The "pause" has been debated and discussed at great length on this forum (e.g., see the appropriate links under "stroke" here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads.html)). The "pause" is taught by most BCA instructors as part of their "set-pause-finish" paradigm. Some people (e.g., Buddy Hall and Allison Fisher) have a deliberate pause that can last for seconds (which seems like an eternity). Others have a more subtle transition, "pausing" for only an "instant." The main point is that one should not rush the transition between the last back-swing and the final forward swing.

Thank you for your comments,
Dave

dr_dave
10-04-2007, 02:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>I think the point of dr_dave's list etc. is to provide a general rule of thumb type of guidance for a pool stroke.<hr /></blockquote>Exactly!!!

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>However, for this purpose I find it too narrow and incomplete.<hr /></blockquote>Again, I would be happy to listen to your suggestions for improvements.

Regards,
Dave

wolfdancer
10-04-2007, 03:32 PM
Actually from reading Fast Larry's ideas on pool, I shortened my bridge a bit which helped me considerably...but as they say
different strokes for different folks.
I can see the benefit of the longer stroke with a smoother acceleration. But that gave my stroke enough time to resemble a sine wave.
In some ways it's like putting....you can either lengthen your stroke as most good putters do, or be a "pop" putter, and control it with the hit...as I believe Lee Trevino did.

1Time
10-04-2007, 11:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>The Stroke “Best Practices” Routine page looks pretty geeked up to me.<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean it is too detailed and technical, maybe you would prefer the graphical flowchart with pictures (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_flowchart.pdf). /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif<hr /></blockquote>

No, I meant that I found it lacking and enough to rate it a 5 out of 10. The pics were helpful though.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>First, it's an attempt to describe only one of a few successful ways people shoot.<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>Exactly! That's why the document (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf) is labeled "best practices." That implies a list of suggestions that represent the "orthodox" and "text-book" technique recommended by most qualified and experienced instructors.<hr /></blockquote>

The two problems with this are "best practices" can mean one or more, and for example, it certainly is not universally best to pause during the stroke. And so your list too narrowly defines best practices.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>Second, it is incomplete.<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I would be happy to hear what you think is missing.<hr /></blockquote>

I would rather re-write and add to your list than banter around every point, which I may do.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>Third, it does not account for shots that require an other than smooth stroke.<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>That's not the point. The point is to recommend "best practices" for a typical stroke used on normal shots.<hr /></blockquote>

I will keep that in mind if I re-write your list.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>Forth, I've never seen anyone with a decent stroke pause before stroking forward. Doing so is a drill golfers use and may be useful for instructing pool, but it is practically never used in the normal course of a stroke. The fact that the cue changes directions during the stroke does not constitute the necessity of a pause.<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>The "pause" has been debated and discussed at great length on this forum (e.g., see the appropriate links under "stroke" here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads.html)). The "pause" is taught by most BCA instructors as part of their "set-pause-finish" paradigm. Some people (e.g., Buddy Hall and Allison Fisher) have a deliberate pause that can last for seconds (which seems like an eternity). Others have a more subtle transition, "pausing" for only an "instant." The main point is that one should not rush the transition between the last back-swing and the final forward swing.<hr /></blockquote>

This is perhaps the clearest example of where your list is too narrow. You've presented this pause as "best" when it is more accurate to consider it an option not used by a majority of pool's elite. And, the fact that a distinguishable pause is not present in the stroke of the vast majority of pros and that most BCA instructors teach this pause, supports my position on this.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>
Thank you for your comments,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

You're welcome. I find it interesting that I'm the only one so far to criticize your list. Perhaps others will respond later. But then maybe others aren't interested in helping you improve your list.

Eric.
10-05-2007, 08:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> I find it interesting that I'm the only one so far to criticize your list. Perhaps others will respond later. But then maybe others aren't interested in helping you improve your list. <hr /></blockquote>

I'm a bit hesitant to say a whole lot more. I've made my dispassionate opinions in other posts and the sentiment here is that whether the poster is "on the money" or "lacking", it's not acceptable to criticise or question him.


Eric

wolfdancer
10-05-2007, 09:42 AM
In this case though, the Dr. himself, is asking for constructive criticism. 1time questions the pause,
while I found some time ago that it helped me on shots
like a long draw, etc. I'd hate to see a new player try to model his stroke using that long back swing...unless that felt natural to him.
Other then that, with my own limited knowledge of the game,I
didn't see any other bones to pick.
I was hoping that Steve, RandyG, Scott, might chime in...
You should go ahead and add your comments to the link...I'm sure he would take any good suggestions and edit that section...after all, that's why we pay him the big $$$

1Time
10-05-2007, 11:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I'd hate to see a new player try to model his stroke using that long back swing...unless that felt natural to him. <hr /></blockquote>

The main problem I have regarding the pics is some who look at them and read the paper then could wrongly jump to the conclusion that these pics depict the exact form and stroke that is described or meant in the paper. However, this paper does not address best stroke practices with regard to the length of the back swing and follow through, and it does not adequately qualify the purpose of the pictures. And yet the pics clearly show an unusually long back swing and follow through, which while such is in accordance with this paper (by not addressing it), such an unusual stroke is certainly not a best practice for all or even for all regular shots.

This is one example of how this paper is incomplete, which also resulted in misunderstanding and misleading the reader.

wolfdancer
10-05-2007, 11:45 AM
I think that all qualifies as constructive criticism, as opposed to say, nit-picking.
That stroke though reminds me of some of the great Phillippino players...they all seem to employ that lengthy backswing, and use an exceptionally long bridge.
One thing that allows that is the length of your lower arm,(IMHO)..mine happens to be short, so a long backswing with a fixed pivot point..upper arm held parallel...would make my cue tip resemble a rollar coaster's path.
You can't go wrong with RandyG's SPFF means to develop a stroke.

dr_dave
10-05-2007, 12:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>it certainly is not universally best to pause during the stroke. And so your list too narrowly defines best practices.<hr /></blockquote>I agree with you on this. My previous wording for the "pause" was too narrow. I've made some changes to better represent what I think is the recommended "best practice" concerning the "pause." Here it is:<blockquote><font class="small">Quote new_stroke_best_practices_document:</font><hr>Smoothly and slowly pull back the cue, pause (even if only for an instant) at the end of your backstroke, and move your eye gaze to the object ball (or more specifically, to the ghost-ball target [see NV 3.1]). Some people recommend a deliberate pause at the end of your backstroke (i.e., before your final forward stroke) to help give your eyes time to focus on your target before your final stroke. Alternatively, you can shift your eye gaze from the cue ball to the object ball at the end of step 3, before the final backstroke. Even if you do this, you might consider pausing at the end of the final backstroke to prevent you from rushing the transition to the final forward stroke. If you don’t use a deliberate pause, be very careful to have a smooth and non-rushed transition to the final forward stroke. Note - for shots where the cue tip contact point is critical (e.g., jump shot, masse shot, break shot, when elevated over a ball), focusing on the cue ball tip-contact point (instead of the object ball target) during the final forward stroke can be more effective.<hr /></blockquote>
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>I would rather re-write and add to your list than banter around every point, which I may do.<hr /></blockquote>If you do, please share it with us.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>I find it interesting that I'm the only one so far to criticize your list. Perhaps others will respond later.<hr /></blockquote>I hope so.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>But then maybe others aren't interested in helping you improve your list.<hr /></blockquote>If that's the case, then the "others" miss the whole point of this forum ... to openly share, discuss, and debate. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I have revised the stroke "best practices" document (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf) a lot over the last year based on input from many people here (via past forum exchanges) and via e-mail messages I've received recently. I provide the document online so people can use it and so the debate and discussion can help me improve it.

Thank you for your input,
Dave

SPetty
10-05-2007, 12:08 PM
So all the discussion made me take a minute to have a look...

You missed the link in your original post to the check list (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_check_list.pdf) . I like the succinctness of the check list, although I would nitpick a few of the practices. (grip: Hand closed in front; bridge: open bridge; stance: step into aim with cue and bridge)

I also like the best practices. It seems to be written well.

I don't care for the presentation of the graphical flowchart with photos. If the boxes on the flowchart were all the same size, it would be easier to read and follow. And I'm afraid I have to agree that the pictures do not add anything as far as I can tell, they aren't particularly germane to the flowchart boxes, and they only serve to introduce questions in the reader's mind. Should my stance look like that? Am I supposed to drop my elbow like that? Am I supposed to have a 16 inch bridge in order to make my back swing as long as the guy in the picture? I'm not sure of the purpose of the graphical flowchart with photos, and how it might be used.

And really, SWPPPGAFFD? I don't think that will catch on... /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

SKennedy
10-05-2007, 12:24 PM
Not to get off the stroke......While I formerly gazed at the object ball as you suggest on the forward stroke, I have found that as I get older I need to focus more on the CB on the forward stroke. It just seems to help me be more consistent. Tuesday night a fellow player and I were shooting on real tables and he is use to bar boxes. He was struggling. I suggested that once he set up and lined up his shot, that during the forward stroke he focus on the CB. It made am immediate difference for him. Any thoughts?

dr_dave
10-05-2007, 12:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I'd hate to see a new player try to model his stroke using that long back swing...unless that felt natural to him. <hr /></blockquote>The main problem I have regarding the pics is some who look at them and read the paper then could wrongly jump to the conclusion that these pics depict the exact form and stroke that is described or meant in the paper. However, this paper does not address best stroke practices with regard to the length of the back swing and follow through, and it does not adequately qualify the purpose of the pictures. And yet the pics clearly show an unusually long back swing and follow through, which while such is in accordance with this paper (by not addressing it), such an unusual stroke is certainly not a best practice for all or even for all regular shots.<hr /></blockquote>You make a good point. I addressed this here (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=259045&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1).

Maybe I should add a note to the photo indicating the person (who is a top player in the Colorado area) is short with a relatively large back swing.

Thanks,
Dave

PS: The check list for video analysis (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_check_list.pdf) does have more detail that an instructor might look at with an individual. For example, if a person has an extremely short or long swing, and it appears to hurt their accuracy and consistency, then an instructor might recommend the person try some changes to see if they make a positive difference.

dr_dave
10-05-2007, 12:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>You missed the link in your original post to the check list (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_check_list.pdf).<hr /></blockquote>Actually, it didn't exist when I started the thread. I've been working on this stuff the last few days.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>I like the succinctness of the check list, although I would nitpick a few of the practices. (grip: Hand closed in front; bridge: open bridge; stance: step into aim with cue and bridge)<hr /></blockquote>I think your nitpicks are appropriate. I've made a few changes.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>I also like the best practices. It seems to be written well.<hr /></blockquote>Thank you.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>I don't care for the presentation of the graphical flowchart with photos. If the boxes on the flowchart were all the same size, it would be easier to read and follow. And I'm afraid I have to agree that the pictures do not add anything as far as I can tell, they aren't particularly germane to the flowchart boxes, and they only serve to introduce questions in the reader's mind. Should my stance look like that? Am I supposed to drop my elbow like that? Am I supposed to have a 16 inch bridge in order to make my back swing as long as the guy in the picture? I'm not sure of the purpose of the graphical flowchart with photos, and how it might be used.<hr /></blockquote>Your points are well taken. I thought the flowchart and photos would help, but I can see how some people might find them misleading.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>And really, SWPPPGAFFD? I don't think that will catch on... /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif<hr /></blockquote>Again, you make a good point; although, it is pronounced "swap-gaffed" ... that's not so bad, is it? I don't expect it to catch on; I just liked the idea of capturing all of the "best practices" with a single, easy-to-pronounce acronym. The BCA "SPF" is much catchier.

Thank you for your feedback and comments,
Dave

dr_dave
10-05-2007, 12:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> Not to get off the stroke......While I formerly gazed at the object ball as you suggest on the forward stroke, I have found that as I get older I need to focus more on the CB on the forward stroke. It just seems to help me be more consistent. Tuesday night a fellow player and I were shooting on real tables and he is use to bar boxes. He was struggling. I suggested that once he set up and lined up his shot, that during the forward stroke he focus on the CB. It made am immediate difference for him. Any thoughts?<hr /></blockquote>"Best practices" doesn't mean "best for every individual." If you have better accuracy and consistency focusing on the CB, then that is your best "individual practice." However, if somebody has problems with accuracy and consistency, and they are not following the "best practices," they might consider trying some of the recommendations to see if they help any.

Regards,
Dave

SKennedy
10-05-2007, 01:07 PM
Thanks. Sometimes what works best for us in the short term is sometimes really bad for the long term and becomes a bad habit to break. Just wanted your thoughts.

okinawa77
10-05-2007, 01:47 PM
Dr. Dave,

I question the "end of back swing pause". Many of the pros do have a pause, but many players have there pause at different steps. I take 2 practice strokes, then pause before the actual stroke, but I do not pause at the end of the back swing. The pause is with the tip near the cue ball. Many top pros have this same pre-shot routine. The reason I do not pause at the end of the back swing, is a matter of logic. The practice strokes are simulations of the actual stroke which conditions your muscle memory. If you wish to apply an end of back swing pause, then it should be applied to the practice strokes as well.

It was said that this routine is similiar to that of the golf swing. Well, during the practice swings, you are using less power than the actual swing. The situation is the same in billiards, but in golf.. the actual swing is different because you are rearing up to deliver a powerful stroke that uses your whole body. What really happens is...during the back swing, we bring the cue or club back slowly and at the end of the back swing we are actually torqueing our body's in order to deliver the forward swing. And this gives the perception of a pause. But in reality, we should not pause. We should have one fluid motion through out the swing.

Consider this...you are bench pressing 200 lbs, what is your technique?
If you pause when the bar reaches your chest (but not resting on your chest). When you try to lift the bar, your muscles feel constrained and may lock up. The main reason is because you interrupted the motion. When lifting weights the physical motion should be co-ordinated with your breathing. During the back swing, you should inhale and exhale during the forward swing.

Each time we breathe, do we pause between the inhalation/exhalation?

We have to ask ourselves....what is the purpose of pausing mid-stroke (at the end of the back swing)?

How does it benefit the delivery of the stroke?

Deeman3
10-05-2007, 01:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr> We have to ask ourselves....what is the purpose of pausing mid-stroke (at the end of the back swing)?

<font color="blue">Perhaps, if you are comparing lifting a very large weight with the smoothly flowing stroke of a billiard cue, you might not be appreciating the difference in brute strength activites and ones with finesse. Of course, you may be totally right. it just seems an odd comparison to make. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

okinawa77
10-05-2007, 02:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr> We have to ask ourselves....what is the purpose of pausing mid-stroke (at the end of the back swing)?

<font color="blue">Perhaps, if you are comparing lifting a very large weight with the smoothly flowing stroke of a billiard cue, you might not be appreciating the difference in brute strength activites and ones with finesse. Of course, you may be totally right. it just seems an odd comparison to make. </font color> <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>


It takes some amount of control (finesse) to be able to lift heavy weights effectively....as it does during a powerful break shot.

There are several different ways for lifting weights. There is toning, sustaining, body fat burning, power lifting, body building, etc...And they employ different techniques when lifting weights.

In pool, we have many different techniques. But in every sport, there should be a strong foundation to build upon. Knowing how to execute all the different techniques increases your capabilities.

Having a consistent pre-shot routine will allow you to perform constistently. But I think that understanding the purpose of each step is vital to the execution of the technique.

When using basic strategy in Black Jack, if the dealer is showing a 6 and you have a 5 and a 3, then you should double down, but if you have a 6 and 2, then you do not double down-you just hit. Why is that?
Knowing why, helps you to understand/remember the information. And it gives purpose to it.

If you have a 6 and 2, then there are less cards left in the deck that will allow the dealer to bust, as opposed to having a 5 and 3.

dr_dave
10-05-2007, 02:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> Thanks. Sometimes what works best for us in the short term is sometimes really bad for the long term and becomes a bad habit to break. Just wanted your thoughts.<hr /></blockquote>Personally, I used to focus on the CB. For years now, I focus on my aiming target (e.g., the OB). I've forced myself to change because I believed it is the recommended "best practice." I think it has helped me, but it was really difficult to change at first.

Regards,
Dave

wolfdancer
10-05-2007, 03:47 PM
We have to ask ourselves....what is the purpose of pausing mid-stroke (at the end of the back swing)?
My simple answer, for myself and other less accomplished players...we sometimes begin our forward stroke before we complete our back stroke. I gained both distance and accuracy on draw shots by adding in a slight pause at the "halfway" mark...as well as the starting point for the final stroke.
That might not work for you, or any other advanced players,but....
consider it an anomaly, that works for a few, like Jim Furyk's swing, or even Lee Trevino's

SKennedy
10-05-2007, 03:51 PM
Vice versa for me. Younger years focus on OB, later focus on CB. I also suspect I'm older and my eyes are failing me more than yours. Neither of us is wrong....as you stated, it's what works best for the individual.

dr_dave
10-05-2007, 04:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr>I question the "end of back swing pause".
...
How does it benefit the delivery of the stroke?<hr /></blockquote>

Here are the reasons given in my document (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf):

"Some people recommend a deliberate pause at the end of your backstroke (i.e., before your final forward stroke) to help give your eyes time to focus on your target before your final stroke."

"you might consider pausing at the end of the final backstroke to prevent you from rushing the transition to the final forward stroke"

For more information and rationales, see the links under "stroke" - "set-pause-finish-freeze" here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads.html).

Regards,
Dave

1Time
10-07-2007, 12:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>
I would rather re-write and add to your list than banter around every point, which I may do. <hr /></blockquote>

The following is my re-write and I consider it a draft and not a finished product. I did not finish it because after a while it seemed more like a job than making a contribution. If I were being paid for this, it would be different. The extent of my re-write only begins to show how I considered your writing to be too narrow, incomplete, and lacking. I have no doubt I could complete this (but likely won't) and have it widely considered more helpful than what you presented. Regardless, the best way to present this material is with videos. If you were to put something comprehensive together with a real pool player, I think it would be wildly popular on the net. I saw a few of your videos and considered them too simplistic and obviously done by someone who doesn't shoot pool well. I don't question your motives, but you lack the translation between experience and product. Provided the proper incentive, I would be interested in assisting you but only in a limited capacity and even if only to continue making efforts such as this.

Practices Critical for Consistent Shot Making

A pool player’s consideration of the following practices is critical for consistent shot making: shot selection, chalking the cue’s tip, visualizing the shot, stance, grip, bridge, address, practice strokes, etc. (add here). These practices are presented for use by anyone wanting to improve their shot making consistency. Exactly how any one of these practices is implemented by a player should be determined by what works best for that particular individual.

1. Shot Selection:

Look at all the balls while moving around the pool table and consider possible next shots and possible sequences of shots. While doing so, consider the offensive and defensive aspects of these shots. Select the next shot and determine where the object ball(s) and cue ball are expected to travel and stop upon completion of the shot.

More experienced players will do this much faster and in depth than the less experienced. Learning to perform this process is similar to learning to read and comprehend a written language, and it is similar to learning to determine which paragraphs to read carefully and which may be skimmed or skipped.

2. Chalking the Cue’s Tip:

(add here)

3. Visualizing the Shot:

(add here)

4. Grip:

(add here)

5. Bridge

(add here)

6. Stance:

Move to a position behind the cue ball that is in alignment with the next object ball(s) to be shot. Grip the cue stick with the grip hand and bridge hand in preparation for shooting and hold the cue stick comfortably in this way with the cue’s butt lower than its tip. Visualize the shot to help determine where to position your feet for the stance. Position your feet so they will provide a solid foundation and balance for your body throughout the shot.

7. Address:

While standing upright, continue visualizing the shot in a gradually more defined way as you address the CB as follows. Bend at the waste and position the cue stick so it is in alignment with the cue ball and object ball(s) to be shot. Position the bridge hand so the cue’s tip is near the cue ball. (add here)

8. Etc.

dr_dave
10-07-2007, 05:41 PM
1Time,

Thank you for your suggestions. Concerning all of the new items on your list, you have some good ideas, but I wanted to limit the stroke document to just the stroke. I think covering all other aspects of fundamentals (shot selection, aiming, stance, etc.) in one short document is too difficult. To cover fundamentals in details requires chapters, not one page. That's why people write books on the game.

Concerning you comments on my online video clips, I also regret that some of clips don't always set the best example of "best practices." I filmed those videos many years ago (in the summer of 2003). I've learned a lot more and have gotten a lot better since then. And as you point out, it would be better to feature a top player with "textbook" "best practices" technique. Luckily, I know some great players with model technique might be willing to help; so when I find some time, I'll try to re-shoot some of those clips. Concerning the level of detail in the clips, the clips are that way by design. The clips are a supplement to (not a replacement for) my book. They support some of the info in the book, but the book has all of the background, illustrations, examples, and details.

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>
I would rather re-write and add to your list than banter around every point, which I may do. <hr /></blockquote>

The following is my re-write and I consider it a draft and not a finished product. I did not finish it because after a while it seemed more like a job than making a contribution. If I were being paid for this, it would be different. The extent of my re-write only begins to show how I considered your writing to be too narrow, incomplete, and lacking. I have no doubt I could complete this (but likely won't) and have it widely considered more helpful than what you presented. Regardless, the best way to present this material is with videos. If you were to put something comprehensive together with a real pool player, I think it would be wildly popular on the net. I saw a few of your videos and considered them too simplistic and obviously done by someone who doesn't shoot pool well. I don't question your motives, but you lack the translation between experience and product. Provided the proper incentive, I would be interested in assisting you but only in a limited capacity and even if only to continue making efforts such as this.

Practices Critical for Consistent Shot Making

A pool player’s consideration of the following practices is critical for consistent shot making: shot selection, chalking the cue’s tip, visualizing the shot, stance, grip, bridge, address, practice strokes, etc. (add here). These practices are presented for use by anyone wanting to improve their shot making consistency. Exactly how any one of these practices is implemented by a player should be determined by what works best for that particular individual.

1. Shot Selection:

Look at all the balls while moving around the pool table and consider possible next shots and possible sequences of shots. While doing so, consider the offensive and defensive aspects of these shots. Select the next shot and determine where the object ball(s) and cue ball are expected to travel and stop upon completion of the shot.

More experienced players will do this much faster and in depth than the less experienced. Learning to perform this process is similar to learning to read and comprehend a written language, and it is similar to learning to determine which paragraphs to read carefully and which may be skimmed or skipped.

2. Chalking the Cue’s Tip:

(add here)

3. Visualizing the Shot:

(add here)

4. Grip:

(add here)

5. Bridge

(add here)

6. Stance:

Move to a position behind the cue ball that is in alignment with the next object ball(s) to be shot. Grip the cue stick with the grip hand and bridge hand in preparation for shooting and hold the cue stick comfortably in this way with the cue’s butt lower than its tip. Visualize the shot to help determine where to position your feet for the stance. Position your feet so they will provide a solid foundation and balance for your body throughout the shot.

7. Address:

While standing upright, continue visualizing the shot in a gradually more defined way as you address the CB as follows. Bend at the waste and position the cue stick so it is in alignment with the cue ball and object ball(s) to be shot. Position the bridge hand so the cue’s tip is near the cue ball. (add here)

8. Etc. <hr /></blockquote>

1Time
10-07-2007, 07:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> 1Time,

Thank you for your suggestions. <hr /></blockquote>

You're welcome, dr_dave.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>Concerning all of the new items on your list, you have some good ideas, but I wanted to limit the stroke document to just the stroke. I think covering all other aspects of fundamentals (shot selection, aiming, stance, etc.) in one short document is too difficult. To cover fundamentals in details requires chapters, not one page. That's why people write books on the game.<hr /></blockquote>

What I wrote and including a complete re-write of what you wrote can be limited to one page by providing links that explain terms and concepts in more depth. Limiting the scope of your paper to only address the stroke is a main point of my re-write. The information you provided regarding stroke makes up such a small subset of what can be provided in an overview paper that covers all aspects critical to shot making consistency. Such a document with supporting links would be an attention grabber, unlike your effort to popularize a ridiculously long acronym. Perhaps you don't see the value in what I'm suggesting. No problem. Someone else may and take advantage of it, or who knows, I may put something together myself.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>
Concerning you comments on my online video clips, I also regret that some of clips don't always set the best example of "best practices." I filmed those videos many years ago (in the summer of 2003). I've learned a lot more and have gotten a lot better since then. And as you point out, it would be better to feature a top player with "textbook" "best practices" technique. Luckily, I know some great players with model technique might be willing to help; so when I find some time, I'll try to re-shoot some of those clips. Concerning the level of detail in the clips, the clips are that way by design. The clips are a supplement to (not a replacement for) my book. They support some of the info in the book, but the book has all of the background, illustrations, examples, and details.<hr /></blockquote>

My point here is, and this is regardless of your book, a series of clips could be made to cover the subject from A to Z regarding the practices that are critical to shot making consistency. It would be an effort some where between what you've done and a full blown DVD movie or book. And, I suggest it would be wildly popular, drive many viewers to your sight, help many players play better, and increase sales of a full blown DVD movie, book, or products.

HALHOULE
10-08-2007, 02:05 AM
IS THAT A LOGICAL WAY TO PLAY POOL. YOU DO NOT NEED INVISIBLE CONTACT POINTS. DO NOT NEED TO JUDGE ANY SHOT ANGLE NO MATTER WHAT THE SHOT ANGLES ARE. NO JUDGING BANKING ANGLES, CAROM ANGLES.