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DeadCrab
10-08-2007, 07:45 AM
The issue of backstroke pause came up in another thread. I was wondering what experienced players/instructors think about the very pronounced pause Niels Feijen has in his stroke.

Good thing for inexperienced players to imitate?

Deeman3
10-08-2007, 08:32 AM
Although I do not use as prounced a pause as some, I do think it has great value in a couple of areas:

It allows the brain to put a definite separation between the back stroke and forward stroke which can encourage a smoother accelleration.

It helps prevent even the slightest "lunge" at the ball and overall tends to quieten the stroke.

It may allow better eye focus time.

For me, it gives more "feel" to the power or lack thereof needed on a stroke as the immediate direction change seems to add another mental calculation to the overall shot. In other words, you are having to offset the momentum of the backstroke during the transition to the forward stroke.

It looks cool.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

dr_dave
10-08-2007, 08:53 AM
Have you seen Buddy Hall's or Allison Fisher's pause? I've heard Allison claim that adding a deliberate pause at the end of her final backstroke made a huge difference to her game.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
10-08-2007, 08:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Although I do not use as prounced a pause as some, I do think it has great value in a couple of areas:

It allows the brain to put a definite separation between the back stroke and forward stroke which can encourage a smoother accelleration.

It helps prevent even the slightest "lunge" at the ball and overall tends to quieten the stroke.

It may allow better eye focus time.

For me, it gives more "feel" to the power or lack thereof needed on a stroke as the immediate direction change seems to add another mental calculation to the overall shot. In other words, you are having to offset the momentum of the backstroke during the transition to the forward stroke.

It looks cool.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif<hr /></blockquote>Excellent summary!

It also drives some people crazy (especially the ones that think a stroke should be "fluid" with no deliberate interruption). That's my favorite reason for using a deliberate pause. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Regards,
Dave

Fran Crimi
10-08-2007, 09:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DeadCrab:</font><hr>
The issue of backstroke pause came up in another thread. I was wondering what experienced players/instructors think about the very pronounced pause Niels Feijen has in his stroke.

Good thing for inexperienced players to imitate?

<hr /></blockquote>

This may sound a bit weird to you, but if you want to pick a player to copy, then you should start by picking someone with a similar personality to yours. People's personalities come out in their games and strokes. For example: If you are a laid back type person, then don't pick the style of a player with a controlling type personality. You will never be able to shoot the same style as them. Or, if you prefer to think in terms of the absloute rather than the abstract, then you will have trouble trying to emulate a player like Efren Reyes who often doesn't pause at the end of his backstroke, depending on what he needs to do with the cue ball, but rather does a continuous motion loop into his forward stroke.

If you're wondering what type of personality your favorite player has, then just ask around. The pool world is a small world. You can find out.

If you're wondering what type of personailty you have, just ask your friends. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Fran

SKennedy
10-08-2007, 10:09 AM
I may, at times, incorporate a slight pause unintentionally. I am going to try it out and see how it helps, if any. Anyway, maybe it will help me look cool...and I need all the help I can get in that category.

Deeman3
10-08-2007, 12:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <hr /></blockquote>

This may sound a bit weird to you, but if you want to pick a player to copy, then you should start by picking someone with a similar personality to yours. People's personalities come out in their games and strokes. For example: If you are a laid back type person, then don't pick the style of a player with a controlling type personality. You will never be able to shoot the same style as them. Or, if you prefer to think in terms of the absloute rather than the abstract, then you will have trouble trying to emulate a player like Efren Reyes who often doesn't pause at the end of his backstroke, depending on what he needs to do with the cue ball, but rather does a continuous motion loop into his forward stroke.

If you're wondering what type of personality your favorite player has, then just ask around. The pool world is a small world. You can find out.

If you're wondering what type of personailty you have, just ask your friends. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Very good points Fran. I shutter to think who I may have patterned my style after (Charles Manson?). I have a couple of players who I would love to pattern my stroke after, Ralph comes to mind, but I just don't have that almost indifferent outside appearance he gives off. I would love to have that technically perfect (to me) stroke he has that seems to hold up so well under the pressure. </font color>

1Time
10-08-2007, 05:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DeadCrab:</font><hr>
The issue of backstroke pause came up in another thread. I was wondering what experienced players/instructors think about the very pronounced pause Niels Feijen has in his stroke.

Good thing for inexperienced players to imitate?

<hr /></blockquote>

It's good for an inexperienced player to get instruction. That instruction should at some point include this technique; however it should primarily include the much more common technique of not noticeably pausing. However, more than anything a player should be encouraged to experiment and determine for themselves what works best.

Short of getting instruction, it is good for a player to imitate the stroke and play of much more experienced players in an effort to find what works best for them. An inexperienced player's stroke is bound to change and develop over time anyway. I used this pause and stroke technique for a while when developing my stroke, and I did so before I even knew other pool players used it. I had previously used this technique when learning golf and applied it to developing my pool stroke. However, while I do consider it valuable for learning, I find its use too limiting to my stroke, shot making, and game. And that's not to say I can't run a rack while using it; I can.

And although a very few top players successfully use this technique (little did I know until recently), I highly suspect the vast majority of pros and greats in pool use or used a stroke without any noticeable pause, a much more classic type of stroke. So how does one decide whether to shoot with a pause? Try it out for yourself, get instruction if needed, and see what works best for you.

1Time
10-08-2007, 05:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>

This may sound a bit weird to you, but if you want to pick a player to copy, then you should start by picking someone with a similar personality to yours. People's personalities come out in their games and strokes.
<hr /></blockquote>

That's an interesting observation, Fran. I've successfully imitated the stroke and play of at least a dozen better local players and pros over the years and have benefited from doing so. However, I couldn't say all these people shared the same type of personality. I guess that makes me somewhat of a chameleon, or worse, a person with multiple personalities - oh no! The only player I could not imitate that I tried was Efren Reyes, never even came close. My personality, stroke, and style of play is most similar to Keith McCready's. I even successfully imitated his side winder style of stroke. Of course I don't normally use it, but I can well enough to switch to it on any given shot. I'm sure it looks weird and I usually only use it to draw attention.

pooltchr
10-08-2007, 06:44 PM
Great point, Fran. I also believe if you are going to try to pattern your style after another player you should consider physical stature. If you are 6'4" and 190 lbs, you probably don't want to try to shoot like Buddy Hall! And if you are built like Buddy, Efrin probably shouldn't be your model.
Steve

Qtec
10-08-2007, 09:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Although I do not use as prounced a pause as some, I do think it has great value in a couple of areas:

It allows the brain to put a definite separation between the back stroke and forward stroke which can encourage a smoother accelleration.

It helps prevent even the slightest "lunge" at the ball and overall tends to quieten the stroke.

It may allow better eye focus time.

For me, it gives more "feel" to the power or lack thereof needed on a stroke as the immediate direction change seems to add another mental calculation to the overall shot. In other words, you are having to offset the momentum of the backstroke during the transition to the forward stroke.

It looks cool.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

Allison F style is a carbon copy of the the great Steve Davis- one of the best snooker players ever. AFAIK, Steve introduced the deliberate/pronounced pause in the late 70's. He was so dominant in snooker that some other professionals took up the DP and Dennis Taylor, after beating Steve in an epic WC final, actually put down his new success to the 'pause'!
Also AFAIK, Steve was one of the few profs who were actually trained by someone. In Steve's case, it was first his by his father- a very good billiards player- and later by Frank Callan- also a great player in his day. [In all my days in London snooker clubs I never saw a pro take a lesson! ]
Is it relevant&gt; I think so.
Anyway, I agree with your summary. For beginners [and a lot of club players,] slowing things down is a very good idea.
I also agree with Fran, I think a DB is a personal thing and it might not be good for everyone.

One of the drawbacks about having a long pause that hasn't been mentioned yet, is hesitation. The longer you wait to hit the ball the more chance there is you might be distracted, have doubts about the shot, think you are going to miss etc etc.


Everything you do on a pool/snooker table you do it with your cue so it makes sense to me to teach people from day one how to use the cue. For beginners, making balls is not important because once they are learn to use a cue properly they make rapid improvement. Slowing the whole cue action down is the first part of the process and the pause can be useful for training purposes.
There is nothing wrong with the technique, in fact it can be very effective as many top players like Niels have show, but I don't think its for everybody.

Tonight in the poolhall there was a table with 5 guys and one girl. She creamed them all. LOL The difference was she seemed to know how to hold a cue and the rest didn't! No seceret aiming system, she was the only one who could get the QB to go where she wanted.

Q ............JMO

Fran Crimi
10-08-2007, 09:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>

This may sound a bit weird to you, but if you want to pick a player to copy, then you should start by picking someone with a similar personality to yours. People's personalities come out in their games and strokes.
<hr /></blockquote>

That's an interesting observation, Fran. I've successfully imitated the stroke and play of at least a dozen better local players and pros over the years and have benefited from doing so. However, I couldn't say all these people shared the same type of personality. I guess that makes me somewhat of a chameleon, or worse, a person with multiple personalities - oh no! The only player I could not imitate that I tried was Efren Reyes, never even came close. My personality, stroke, and style of play is most similar to Keith McCready's. I even successfully imitated his side winder style of stroke. Of course I don't normally use it, but I can well enough to switch to it on any given shot. I'm sure it looks weird and I usually only use it to draw attention. <hr /></blockquote>

To me, just because a person can imitate someone's stroke, doesn't mean it's the right stroke for them.

I can imitate several different types of strokes, too. But my overall choice of stroke for me is one that works with my personality, and when I go against my own grain it's not long before I'm looking for a way out of a mess.

Hasn't a friend ever said to you, "That wasn't you out there today" or "You didn't seem like your normal self on the table today." ?

Fran

1Time
10-09-2007, 03:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>
To me, just because a person can imitate someone's stroke, doesn't mean it's the right stroke for them.<hr /></blockquote>

I agree, but that wasn't my point. My point was my stroke and game benefited from imitating the strokes of different players and it did so regardless of how or whether their personalities differed from mine. I did not subsequently prefer using one of their strokes instead of mine. Rather, my stroke developed and improved from having imitated theirs.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>I can imitate several different types of strokes, too. But my overall choice of stroke for me is one that works with my personality, and when I go against my own grain it's not long before I'm looking for a way out of a mess. <hr /></blockquote>

Whatever works best is what I say. I think my style of shooting fits my personality and this agrees with your main point, which I consider an insightful and interesting observation.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>Hasn't a friend ever said to you, "That wasn't you out there today" or "You didn't seem like your normal self on the table today." ? <hr /></blockquote>

Yes, I was told something similar when I successfully imitated Keith McCready's stroke. But if you're asking if a friend has ever noticed my game was not up to par, then yes I have been told something similar. However, my worse play was not due to me imitating a stroke of someone with another type of personality. It was just my stroke.

Snapshot9
10-10-2007, 10:40 AM
Okay baby, I am getting ready to shoot, are you ready? That's what that pause halfway through the hit stroke reminds me of. Either that or someone stuttering trying to say something. Hurry up already.

What the hell good is it? Are you going to adjust your aim when you are 'cocked', I don't think so. The only possible reason I can come up with for it, is a last second determination on the speed of the cue ball.

I am not against pauses, per se, but if I pause it is when I addressing the cue ball right BEFORE I start the hit stroke, not halfway through it. Sorry, but I feel the hit stroke should be a fluid motion from start to finish.

bradb
10-11-2007, 03:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Snapshot9:</font><hr> Okay baby, I am getting ready to shoot, are you ready? That's what that pause halfway through the hit stroke reminds me of. Either that or someone stuttering trying to say something. Hurry up already.

What the hell good is it? Are you going to adjust your aim when you are 'cocked', I don't think so. The only possible reason I can come up with for it, is a last second determination on the speed of the cue ball.

I am not against pauses, per se, but if I pause it is when I addressing the cue ball right BEFORE I start the hit stroke, not halfway through it. Sorry, but I feel the hit stroke should be a fluid motion from start to finish.

<hr /></blockquote>

If you are playing with any level of efficiency then you must have a pause in your stroke, it may be that its so smooth that its not noticeable.

If every top players stroke was video taped in slow motion you would see it. It may be slight but i would hate to think how the stroke would turn out if the forward motion began without it. its a fundamental in all sports, golf swing, base ball, tennis... you name it.

True that a long pause will not work for everyone, its a matter of personnal style. Snooker players display it more noticably because of the precision required to pot a ball on the more difficult table, but the stroke is universal.

bignick31985
10-11-2007, 04:33 PM
My favorite player is Earl Strickland. And I love playing fast, and I dont use a jump cue. Definitely is a fun guy to watch play pool.

bradb
10-11-2007, 05:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bignick31985:</font><hr> My favorite player is Earl Strickland. And I love playing fast, and I dont use a jump cue. Definitely is a fun guy to watch play pool. <hr /></blockquote>

The guy is controversal, but he's always intertaining, there's always that element of anything can happen when he's at the table.

DeadCrab
10-11-2007, 06:19 PM
***********
What the hell good is it? Are you going to adjust your aim when you are 'cocked', I don't think so. The only possible reason I can come up with for it, is a last second determination on the speed of the cue ball.
**********************

Allison Fisher says she has a noticeable pause so that the stick is not moving as she shifts her sight from the cue ball to the object ball. Makes sense to me.

pooltchr
10-11-2007, 07:21 PM
All players have a pause at the end of the back stroke. The good ones do it on purpose. Allison takes advantage of it and uses along with her PEP.
Steve

okinawa77
10-11-2007, 07:38 PM
My pause tends to be directly proportional to the eye candy in my line of sight.

Curdog
10-12-2007, 09:22 AM
I also use the momentary pause to assure that my body has no tension(if possible) before I pull the trigger

av84fun
10-20-2007, 01:14 PM
I think you are missing the point. Re-read Deeman's post. In addition:

1. One of the main reasons for missing is head/body movement during the transition from back stroke to forwards stroke. The pause helps eliminate that.
2. Another prime reason for missing is "short stroking" also described as rushing the forward stroke. The exact same thing happens in the golf swing for exactly the same reason...being overly anxious to swing at the ball. The pausse helps to eliminate that problem.
3. As mentioned by others, the pause allows the eye to perform a "laser focus" on the object ball which is crucial. The eye tends to follow motion and is being constantly distracted from the vital task of precise object ball focus by the constant motion of the cue in a so-called fluid stroke.
4. Among the most serious stroke flaws is a failure to accelerate during the forward stroke. Given that the pause forces you to start the foward stroke with a DEFINATE zero forward speed, it is almost impossible to decelerate the stroke. By DEFINATE, I mean that all foward swings start from zero MPH as the stoke reverses direction...just like a bell hangs motionless in the air when it stops rising but that happens for only a nonosecond and is imperceptable to the human brain. With a definate pause, you are clearly award of the zero forward speed and therefore, the acceleration that must occur from zero mph.

The only way to screw it up is with a STABBING, jerky forward swing caused by a realization that you are swinging too fast for the shot requiring the use of muscular force to slow the stroke down which almost guarantees an improper delivery of the cue tip to the CB.

Where the fluidity you mention comes into play is during the FORWARD STROKE and ONLY the forward stroke. The cue ball could care less what your BACKSTROKE looks like. bustamante has such a pronounced LOOP in his backstroke that it almost makes me dizzy looking at it! But his FORWARD stroke is sweet and pure and that is all that matters.

It is not appropriate to say that a no-pause stroke is "wrong." Rather, for many players, the pause meaningfully reduces the chances of stroking errors.

I was converted to the pause by Allision during one of her Pool Schools and it has improved my game substantially.

For those wishing to try to convert...try this.

Set up SIMPLE, two foot shots...use NO warm up swings....just [censored] your stroke to a FULL backstroke ()cue tip all the way back to your bridge hand...hold it there for the count of two and then SMOOOOOTHLY accelerate the stroke through the CB.

Do that 10 times and then use your normal warm up strokes...then pause and stroke through.

Do 10 sets of the above and you will BEGIN to get the feel of the pause.
IMPORTANT!!!!!!!! During the two count pause, shift your eye focus to a LASER FOCUS on the OB (using whatever aiming technique you use).

It is that FOCUS, plus the encouragement of FULL backstroke and an accelerating forward stroke that the pause is meant to accomplish.

The pause is obviously not for everyone but in my opinion, the VAST majority of players will benefit from it but
NOTE: It will take AT LEAST SIX MONTHS to fully accomplish the transition and you might go backwards in achievment before you go forward.

Regards,
Jim

1Time
10-20-2007, 03:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> Set up SIMPLE, two foot shots...use NO warm up swings....just [censored] your stroke to a FULL backstroke ()cue tip all the way back to your bridge hand...hold it there for the count of two and then SMOOOOOTHLY accelerate the stroke through the CB. <hr /></blockquote>

I had very little trouble adjusting to shooting with a pause when I tried it over 20 years ago. More than anything it helped with the timing of my focus on a shot and rhythm of my stroke. I consider it a very valuable exercise and obviously a credible alternative for some to a more traditional stroke.

However, I question a couple things av84fun suggests above. One is always using a full backstroke. I found it better to use a shorter backstroke on some shots. And the other is pausing for 2 seconds. I found it best to pause as long as it felt comfortable and until I was ready to pull the trigger. For me, 2 seconds seemed like a minimum pause time.

dr_dave
10-20-2007, 04:01 PM
Excellent post! Great summary of the rationale behind the "pause."

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> I think you are missing the point. Re-read Deeman's post. In addition:

1. One of the main reasons for missing is head/body movement during the transition from back stroke to forwards stroke. The pause helps eliminate that.
2. Another prime reason for missing is "short stroking" also described as rushing the forward stroke. The exact same thing happens in the golf swing for exactly the same reason...being overly anxious to swing at the ball. The pausse helps to eliminate that problem.
3. As mentioned by others, the pause allows the eye to perform a "laser focus" on the object ball which is crucial. The eye tends to follow motion and is being constantly distracted from the vital task of precise object ball focus by the constant motion of the cue in a so-called fluid stroke.
4. Among the most serious stroke flaws is a failure to accelerate during the forward stroke. Given that the pause forces you to start the foward stroke with a DEFINATE zero forward speed, it is almost impossible to decelerate the stroke. By DEFINATE, I mean that all foward swings start from zero MPH as the stoke reverses direction...just like a bell hangs motionless in the air when it stops rising but that happens for only a nonosecond and is imperceptable to the human brain. With a definate pause, you are clearly award of the zero forward speed and therefore, the acceleration that must occur from zero mph.

The only way to screw it up is with a STABBING, jerky forward swing caused by a realization that you are swinging too fast for the shot requiring the use of muscular force to slow the stroke down which almost guarantees an improper delivery of the cue tip to the CB.

Where the fluidity you mention comes into play is during the FORWARD STROKE and ONLY the forward stroke. The cue ball could care less what your BACKSTROKE looks like. bustamante has such a pronounced LOOP in his backstroke that it almost makes me dizzy looking at it! But his FORWARD stroke is sweet and pure and that is all that matters.

It is not appropriate to say that a no-pause stroke is "wrong." Rather, for many players, the pause meaningfully reduces the chances of stroking errors.

I was converted to the pause by Allision during one of her Pool Schools and it has improved my game substantially.

For those wishing to try to convert...try this.

Set up SIMPLE, two foot shots...use NO warm up swings....just [censored] your stroke to a FULL backstroke ()cue tip all the way back to your bridge hand...hold it there for the count of two and then SMOOOOOTHLY accelerate the stroke through the CB.

Do that 10 times and then use your normal warm up strokes...then pause and stroke through.

Do 10 sets of the above and you will BEGIN to get the feel of the pause.
IMPORTANT!!!!!!!! During the two count pause, shift your eye focus to a LASER FOCUS on the OB (using whatever aiming technique you use).

It is that FOCUS, plus the encouragement of FULL backstroke and an accelerating forward stroke that the pause is meant to accomplish.

The pause is obviously not for everyone but in my opinion, the VAST majority of players will benefit from it but
NOTE: It will take AT LEAST SIX MONTHS to fully accomplish the transition and you might go backwards in achievment before you go forward.

Regards,
Jim <hr /></blockquote>

wolfdancer
10-20-2007, 04:15 PM
That's probably the best explanation, and the best reasons for building a pause into your stroke that I have ever seen.
In golf...we sometimes get caught starting our forward swing before we finish the backswing. I've done something similar in pool on "power" shots.
And the "going backwards" ....that reportedly keeps people from improving in many sports, there's a natural falloff, a conflict...as you try to replace the old with the new motion. Chuck Hogan web page (http://www.chuckhogan.com/) thought it took 21 days of concentrated effort to add something new into your game...and then "validate" it...internalize it.
Only took me about 10 years to get rid of a slice....and probably another 10 and I'll have a pool stroke....
Thanks for the post....I copied and printed that

wolfdancer
10-20-2007, 04:28 PM
That's probably the best explanation, and the best reasons for building a pause into your stroke that I have ever seen.
In golf...we sometimes get caught starting our forward swing before we finish the backswing. I've done something similar in pool on "power" shots.
And the "going backwards" that supposedly keeps people from improving in many sports...as you try to replace the old with the new motion. Chuck Hogan web page (http://www.chuckhogan.com/) thought it took 21 days of concentrated effort to add something new into your game...and then "validate" it...internalize it.
Only took me about 10 years to get rid of a slice....and probably another 10 and I'll have a pool stroke....
Thanks for the post....I copied and printed that

joepool
10-21-2007, 10:47 AM
I agree this is a great explanation. Thank you.

craigstevens
10-21-2007, 07:17 PM
Fran as usual is dead one, because she has been there, done all that s***.

I am like a greenleaf, mosconi, a hyper, nervous type A, so I need to study and watch a lot of Sigel tapes...

I need fast and loose.

No way, no how can I copy Varner chomping on his 19 sticks of juicy fruit for 2 minutes between shots, or Hall plodding around like a 600 lb cow, or matlock putting me to sleep between shots, with bored me saying some body bring me a triple or put a cap in my skull and put me out of my misery.
Put Varner on a 45 second shot clock and he will have a total nervous breakdown, he will have a stroke. Put me or Earl on a 20 second one and you will never catch us once.
But, these slow players all were great champions. My attempts to be like them, or be a B person, all met with failure. You are, what you are. Men do not change, all though women keep trying.

Golfers never pause on the back swing and neither should pool. Golf proved that you can not have two thoughts, or two pieces to the back swing, that is must be one thought, one imgage, one movement. Ah so, I am just a lowly scratch player taught by Ballard and Lead, so what in the hell do I know.
I teach short jab strokes in pool, like jab jab jab, pause, eyes go up and down, then jab jab jab, eyes go up and down, this is the longer pause, then pull and go. Like whimpy, Hopkins and Sigel, a few who had some success at this.

So Yes I pause, but before, not half way back.

Pool has proved it is being done both ways successfully, so it really does not matter. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Vapros
10-21-2007, 09:48 PM
The back swing is just a maneuver to move your stick from the aim position to the place where the stroke begins. Pause until you're ready to hit the ball. Really ready. Don't you ever get to the top of the back swing and have the feeling that you need to stand up and start over?

av84fun
10-21-2007, 10:06 PM
"However, I question a couple things av84fun suggests above. One is always using a full backstroke. I found it better to use a shorter backstroke on some shots. And the other is pausing for 2 seconds. I found it best to pause as long as it felt comfortable and until I was ready to pull the trigger. For me, 2 seconds seemed like a minimum pause time."

Good points...and to clarify, I didn't mean to ALWAYS use a full backstroke. On very short and very soft shots it is often not necessary or helpful. Also, the 2 second pause was not meant to be exact...just an indication of a DEFINATE pause...although 2 seconds...one thousand one, one thousand two...is quite a pause.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
10-21-2007, 10:11 PM
THANKS wolfdancer. I was actually considering using more in the way of sports analogies but my post was too long as it was. But right, there is a definate pause in the golf swing..at least a pause of the hands and arms since the lower body leads the swing...or should.

Ditto for the tennis swing and actually even the delivery of a pitch in baseball. The pitcher clearly moves the lower body forward while maintaining a passive pitching arm and you have to know that he is putting a LASER FOCUS on the portion of the strike zone he intends to deliver the ball to.

(-:

1Time
10-21-2007, 10:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> Also, the 2 second pause was not meant to be exact...just an indication of a DEFINATE pause...although 2 seconds...one thousand one, one thousand two...is quite a pause. <hr /></blockquote>

Right, a definite pause, whether more or less than 2 seconds. When I used to use the pause in practice, it was no problem at all for me to pause for several seconds, even look around, talk with people and then return to shoot. The pause for me was just a starting point, and different way to address the shot. And at that address I could start and stop concentration on the shot with ease. But I can see how a longer than a definite pause could really mess with the strokes of many players.

1Time
10-21-2007, 11:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vapros:</font><hr> The back swing is just a maneuver to move your stick from the aim position to the place where the stroke begins. Pause until you're ready to hit the ball. Really ready. Don't you ever get to the top of the back swing and have the feeling that you need to stand up and start over? <hr /></blockquote>

It is not uncommon for golfers to work on their swing by hitting shots from a complete stop at the top of the backswing. However, golfers don't do this in competition because it takes too much away from their game.

I've never wanted to stop my pool stroke once started. For me the forward stroke is the climax or resolution to a crescendo, a crescendo that ends with the conclusion of the back stroke and begins before it. Or, to use a sexual metaphor, who really "wants" to pull out when it's time to explode?

pooltchr
10-22-2007, 04:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>

It is not uncommon for golfers to work on their swing by hitting shots from a complete stop at the top of the backswing. However, golfers don't do this in competition because it takes too much away from their game.

<hr /></blockquote>

Sure they do. It's usually just a much shorter pause.
Steve

Scott Lee
10-22-2007, 10:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote craigstevens:</font><hr> bored me saying some body put a cap in my skull and put me out of my misery.
<hr /></blockquote>

Finally, Larry...I see if we wait long enough something semi-intelligent comes out of your mouth! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Ain't love grand? /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Scott Lee

1Time
10-22-2007, 11:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Sure they do. It's usually just a much shorter pause.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Your use of the word pause is not consistant with its definition. It's no more correct or accurate to say "It's usually just a much shorter pause" than it is to say "It's usually just a much longer instant". The change in direction in one's stroke (putting, chipping, driving, etc.) does not constitute the observance or existence of a pause.

Intentionally pausing at the top of a golf swing (a distinct and noticeable pause, which is consistent with the definition of the word) is a technique practiced to help improve one's swing. And while a few golfers also use this technique while playing, most do not, and by far most pro golfers do not. And, to pause at the top of one's golf swing is not ideal. The pro golf tours would be filled with golfers who paused during their swings if this were true, and it's not. And, the same is true in pool.

craigstevens
10-22-2007, 12:47 PM
Well Scott, it's sure grand to see that your heart is so full of love?

I loved the post made here, if the pause on the back was right, then way are not all the golfers doing it?
Gomer go gol lee, maybe casue bryne told me not to...
Shucks, If I dont do what the god of pool say, I will go to pool hell and be bunked with Omaha Fat.

I am leaving, this is my last post, too many here, do not want the truth, they want to hear, what they already know and I do not wish to disturb that with them. I shall search for another place where the people are nicer. Here they are nasty with single digit IQ's. I shall continue to wander the earth bare foot with my bamboo flute searching and searching until the enlighten ones find me. Hasta La Vista, Babies.

Scott Lee
10-22-2007, 02:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>
Your use of the word pause is not consistant with its definition. It's no more correct or accurate to say "It's usually just a much shorter pause" than it is to say "It's usually just a much longer instant". The change in direction in one's stroke (putting, chipping, driving, etc.) does not constitute the observance or existence of a pause.

Intentionally pausing at the top of a golf swing (a distinct and noticeable pause, which is consistent with the definition of the word) is a technique practiced to help improve one's swing. And while a few golfers also use this technique while playing, most do not, and by far most pro golfers do not. And, to pause at the top of one's golf swing is not ideal. The pro golf tours would be filled with golfers who paused during their swings if this were true, and it's not. And, the same is true in pool. <hr /></blockquote>

1 Time...Actually you're incorrect here. A pause is a pause, regardless of how long it lasts (from a millisecond, to several seconds). You cannot change direction without coming to a stop (see Newton's Laws of Motion). Even if that stop is a mere hesitation, it is still a stop. Steve is correct...all poolplayers have a pause in their backswing (as do golfers)...the good ones just do it on purpose! It is the smooth transition from the backswing to the forward stroke that matters...not how long or short the pause is.

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
10-22-2007, 02:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote craigstevens:</font><hr> Well Scott, it's sure grand to see that your heart is so full of love?

I loved the post made here, if the pause on the back was right, then way are not all the golfers doing it?
Gomer go gol lee, maybe casue bryne told me not to...
Shucks, If I dont do what the god of pool say, I will go to pool hell and be bunked with Omaha Fat.

<font color="blue"> I am leaving, this is my last post, too many here, do not want the truth, they want to hear, what they already know and I do not wish to disturb that with them. I shall search for another place where the people are nicer. Here they are nasty with single digit IQ's. I shall continue to wander the earth bare foot with my bamboo flute searching and searching until the enlighten ones find me. Hasta La Vista, Babies.</font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

Hey Larry...Did you forget you already posted this in another thread today? Don't forget your meds! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott

1Time
10-22-2007, 11:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>
1 Time...Actually you're incorrect here. A pause is a pause, regardless of how long it lasts (from a millisecond, to several seconds). You cannot change direction without coming to a stop (see Newton's Laws of Motion). Even if that stop is a mere hesitation, it is still a stop. Steve is correct...all poolplayers have a pause in their backswing (as do golfers)...the good ones just do it on purpose! It is the smooth transition from the backswing to the forward stroke that matters...not how long or short the pause is.

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>
A millisecond? Newton's Laws of Motion? No, Scott Lee, you are incorrect.

A pause as it pertains to a golf swing or pool stroke does not refer to any length of time from a millisecond or more. It refers to a noticeable suspension of action, a pause, between the back stroke or swing and the forward stroke. And, any educated person with an ounce of humility can readily understand and accept this.

The following two quotes from Answers.com are definitions and synonyms of pause:

"1. To cease or suspend an action temporarily.
2. To linger; tarry: paused for a while under the huge oak tree.
3. To hesitate: He paused before replying."

"SYNONYMS pause, intermission, recess, respite, suspension. These nouns denote a temporary stop, as in activity: a short pause in the conversation;" (etc).

Your reference to a need to come to a complete stop when changing directions, would be applicable if for example we were referring to a ball bouncing off of a wall. One could say a ball reached a point at maximum compression and then began to decompress as it rebounded off the wall. And so this instant of maximum compression (while the ball is not active) could technically be referred to as a pause since it is a state of temporary suspension between two actions, compression and decompression. However, this has nothing to do with a golf swing or a pool stroke.

Your reference to a need to come to a complete stop when changing directions, is not applicable because no pool player or golfer using a traditional pool stroke or golf swing (one without a pause) can reverse the direction of a pool cue or golf club with enough angular precision so as to "stop" the cue or club before it heads off into another direction. The traditional pool stroke or golf swing involves some form of non-angular turn or loop while changing directions, even if minor and even if not noticeable. Thus, there is no stop, and there is no pause with any stroke or swing that has no noticeable pause.

pooltchr
10-23-2007, 04:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> no pool player or golfer using a traditional pool stroke or golf swing (one without a pause) can reverse the direction of a pool cue or golf club with enough angular precision so as to "stop" the cue or club before it heads off into another direction. The traditional pool stroke or golf swing involves some form of non-angular turn or loop while changing directions, even if minor and even if not noticeable. Thus, there is no stop, and there is no pause with any stroke or swing that has no noticeable pause. <hr /></blockquote>

Help me understand. Are you saying that the only way to NOT have a pause is to add a curve, or looping motion, into the transition from back stroke to forward stroke? If the cue (or golf club) comes straight back, and then goes straight forward without any looping, would there be a point where the motion had to come to a complete stop for at least an instant?
Steve

wolfdancer
10-23-2007, 07:22 AM
Steve,in golf that would be Jim Furchk
"Jim Furyk's trademark golf swing involves a distinctive looping motion"
With an untrained eye like mine, that's hard to spot...but if he didn't get that right elbow down immediately, he'd be playing $5 nassau's at the local public links, instead of winning on the pro level.
web page (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQCCqGgs_2k)
I'm not even sure how you could build a loop into a pool stroke....but maybe on a break shot???
I think we're all talking semantics here as I've read...everybody pauses to change directions (some kind of weird physics law)it's just the length of the pause that differs
Stop the presses....
I'm sitting here practicing a loop, and it is a nice non stop motion...only problem is there's about a 6" side to side movement of the front end of the shaft.
Now if this loop becomes well known and popular, it's going to put you SPF guys out of business, get you all back into drilling bowling balls for a living.

wolfdancer
10-23-2007, 07:34 AM
"I would love to have that technically perfect (to me) stroke he has that seems to hold up so well under the pressure."
"A man's got to know his limitations"
I've heard that your stroke "folds like a cheap suit" once the stakes get over $5 a game.
I'm thinking if I ever really need some extra cash....knowing there's a "mark" down there in Bama land just waiting to be plucked....it's like having an emergency secret Swiss bank account

dr_dave
10-23-2007, 08:43 AM
Steve,

Strictly, the word "pause" does imply stopping for more than an "instant." When a player has an obvious "pause" between the end of their back-swing and the beginning of their forward-swing, I like to refer to it as a "deliberate pause" or a "distinct pause." Here, the implication is clear: the cue is held stationary (stopped) for more than an instant.

Strictly speaking, if the cue stops only for an "instant," there is no "pause." An "instant" does not involve any passage of time. A "pause" does imply a "stop" (zero speed) for a distinct amount of time. For example, when a free-swinging pendulum changes direction at is highest point, it does "stop" for an "instant," but it does not "pause." The speed gradually and smoothly changes from negative (in the backward direction) to positive (in the forward direction), through zero. The speed does not stay at zero for any amount of time. At the tiniest fraction of a second before the speed is zero, the pendulum is moving slowly in one direction (negative speed); and at the tiniest fraction of a second after the speed is zero, the pendulum is moving slowly in the other direction (positive speed). The speed is zero only for an "instant." Not even the smallest fraction of time passes during that instant.

Now, having said all of that, I don't think it really matters that much. People will interpret the word "pause" in different ways; but as long as you are clear and consistent and people know what you mean, nothing else really matters. Again, I like to use the phrase "deliberate pause" when there is a distinct "pause" in the action (i.e., the stop occurs for more than just an "instant"). For example, both Allison Fisher and Buddy Hall (and others) obviously have a "deliberate pause" before their final forward stroke. I think the phrase "pause for only an instant" is also OK when there is no "deliberate pause"; although, it is strictly not proper. When somebody rushes or jerks the transition between back and forward motion, there still is a "stop for an instant" (because the cue still changes direction and has zero speed for an instant). I would call this a "pauseless and rushed" transition.

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> no pool player or golfer using a traditional pool stroke or golf swing (one without a pause) can reverse the direction of a pool cue or golf club with enough angular precision so as to "stop" the cue or club before it heads off into another direction. The traditional pool stroke or golf swing involves some form of non-angular turn or loop while changing directions, even if minor and even if not noticeable. Thus, there is no stop, and there is no pause with any stroke or swing that has no noticeable pause. <hr /></blockquote>

Help me understand. Are you saying that the only way to NOT have a pause is to add a curve, or looping motion, into the transition from back stroke to forward stroke? If the cue (or golf club) comes straight back, and then goes straight forward without any looping, would there be a point where the motion had to come to a complete stop for at least an instant?
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Scott Lee
10-23-2007, 11:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Steve,

Strictly, the word "pause" does imply stopping for more than an "instant." When a player has an obvious "pause" between the end of their back-swing and the beginning of their forward-swing, I like to refer to it as a "deliberate pause" or a "distinct pause." Here, the implication is clear: the cue is held stationary (stopped) for more than an instant.

Strictly speaking, if the cue stops only for an "instant," there is no "pause." An "instant" does not involve any passage of time. A "pause" does imply a "stop" (zero speed) for a distinct amount of time. For example, when a free-swinging pendulum changes direction at is highest point, it does "stop" for an "instant," but it does not "pause." The speed gradually and smoothly changes from negative (in the backward direction) to positive (in the forward direction), through zero. The speed does not stay at zero for any amount of time. At the tiniest fraction of a second before the speed is zero, the pendulum is moving slowly in one direction (negative speed); and at the tiniest fraction of a second after the speed is zero, the pendulum is moving slowly in the other direction (positive speed). The speed is zero only for an "instant." Not even the smallest fraction of time passes during that instant.

Now, having said all of that, I don't think it really matters that much. People will interpret the word "pause" in different ways; but as long as you are clear and consistent and people know what you mean, nothing else really matters. Again, I like to use the phrase "deliberate pause" when there is a distinct "pause" in the action (i.e., the stop occurs for more than just an "instant"). For example, both Allison Fisher and Buddy Hall (and others) obviously have a "deliberate pause" before their final forward stroke. I think the phrase "pause for only an instant" is also OK when there is no "deliberate pause"; although, it is strictly not proper. When somebody rushes or jerks the transition between back and forward motion, there still is a "stop for an instant" (because the cue still changes direction and has zero speed for an instant). I would call this a "pauseless and rushed" transition.

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> no pool player or golfer using a traditional pool stroke or golf swing (one without a pause) can reverse the direction of a pool cue or golf club with enough angular precision so as to "stop" the cue or club before it heads off into another direction. The traditional pool stroke or golf swing involves some form of non-angular turn or loop while changing directions, even if minor and even if not noticeable. Thus, there is no stop, and there is no pause with any stroke or swing that has no noticeable pause. <hr /></blockquote>

Help me understand. Are you saying that the only way to NOT have a pause is to add a curve, or looping motion, into the transition from back stroke to forward stroke? If the cue (or golf club) comes straight back, and then goes straight forward without any looping, would there be a point where the motion had to come to a complete stop for at least an instant?
Steve <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

Well, Dave and 1 Time, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Neither of you are instructors, so your personal description of the action doesn't mean much to us that teach real world pool on a daily basis. Regardless of what you say, there is a pause at the backswing, whether it is momentary, or "deliberate/distinct". It is more about the smooth transition from the backswing to the forward stroke. Mine is on the 'momentary' end (about 1/10 of a second)...Buddy's is on the other extreme (about 3-4 seconds). They are both pauses... There is no scientific explanation that pronounces how long a time frame has to be to be interpreted as a pause. Your dictionary references can be implied as my description or yours. You guys can play semantics all you like, but for students of the game, our descriptions and instructional advice is what matters most to those who come to us for help in learning to play better.

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
10-23-2007, 11:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> any educated person with an ounce of humility can readily understand and accept this.[/b]

The following two quotes from Answers.com are definitions and synonyms of pause:

"1. To cease or suspend an action temporarily.
2. To linger; tarry: paused for a while under the huge oak tree.
3. To hesitate: He paused before replying."

"SYNONYMS pause, intermission, recess, respite, suspension. These nouns denote a temporary stop, as in activity: a short pause in the conversation;" (etc).

Your reference to a need to come to a complete stop when changing directions, would be applicable if for example we were referring to a ball bouncing off of a wall. One could say a ball reached a point at maximum compression and then began to decompress as it rebounded off the wall. And so this instant of maximum compression (while the ball is not active) could technically be referred to as a pause since it is a state of temporary suspension between two actions, compression and decompression. However, this has nothing to do with a golf swing or a pool stroke.

Your reference to a need to come to a complete stop when changing directions, is not applicable because no pool player or golfer using a traditional pool stroke or golf swing (one without a pause) can reverse the direction of a pool cue or golf club with enough angular precision so as to "stop" the cue or club before it heads off into another direction. The traditional pool stroke or golf swing involves some form of non-angular turn or loop while changing directions, even if minor and even if not noticeable. Thus, there is no stop, and there is no pause with any stroke or swing that has no noticeable pause. <hr /></blockquote>

This is of course just YOUR opinion. I'm curious, Mr. 1 Time...if you're so open to learning, why did you refuse to show up when Randyg made the offer to meet up with you in Las Vegas, to give you some FREE advice? He was there at the appointed time and place (Cue Club), but you never showed up. To me, that says a lot about you... /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Scott Lee

bradb
10-23-2007, 11:33 AM
Steve <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

Well, Dave and 1 Time, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Neither of you are instructors, so your personal description of the action doesn't mean much to us that teach real world pool on a daily basis. Regardless of what you say, there is a pause at the backswing, whether it is momentary, or "deliberate/distinct". It is more about the smooth transition from the backswing to the forward stroke. Mine is on the 'momentary' end (about 1/10 of a second)...Buddy's is on the other extreme (about 3-4 seconds). They are both pauses... There is no scientific explanation that pronounces how long a time frame has to be to be interpreted as a pause. Your dictionary references can be implied as my description or yours. You guys can play semantics all you like, but for students of the game, our descriptions and instructional advice is what matters most to those who come to us for help in learning to play better.

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Scot has given us the most appropriate description of why we must "stop" a backward motion before we "start" a forward motion. Its a simple principle in any sport. After the stop occurs it is a matter of style for each player on how long to hold it. As I mentioned in a quote above it may be so fluid it isn't noticible as a golf swing, but watch a slo-mo of a swing and its obvious. Its a smooth transition from backward to forward.

Dr Dave, and others here are right also, its just a matter of semantics in describing it. Pause, stop... whatever, its the same.

I take a long pause, (1 second) because it helps me to sight better and find the spot. Whenever I forget to do it, I usually miss.

Slow back...pause...straight through. (add your own terminology)


-brad

1Time
10-23-2007, 11:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Help me understand. Are you saying that the only way to NOT have a pause is to add a curve, or looping motion, into the transition from back stroke to forward stroke? <hr /></blockquote>

No.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> If the cue (or golf club) comes straight back, and then goes straight forward without any looping, would there be a point where the motion had to come to a complete stop for at least an instant?
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Yes, but that's a very big if when limited to using human hands with a pool cue or golf club.

It may help to better understand what I wrote by first considering that what I posted was in direct reply to Scott Lee's claims regarding a millisecond and Newton's Laws of Motion. He took this unnecessarily to the micro and impractical level, and so I followed him there in order to show that he is not correct.

However, for all practical intents and purposes, the matter is very simple. A pause does not exist unless one can notice it, whether intended or not. And, no pause exists in the traditional pool and golf strokes.

dr_dave subsequently gave a good example of the perfectly angular return, a pendulum. Unlike what human hands can achieve, this mechanical device is capable of stopping for an instant, between rear and forward swing. Anyone free-handing a pool cue or golf club is not capable of such mechanical and angular precision. And, whether or not there is a noticeable pause or not, no one is capable of such a "stop" without appropriate mechanical assistance. An example of mechanical assistance would be a pool player bouncing the butt of the cue off of a rear wall while using the resulting forward motion of the cue stick to shoot a shot.

Fran Crimi
10-23-2007, 11:46 AM
You know that little loopy thing that Efren sometimes does? That's a continuous motion loop from his backswing into his forward swing. So, yes, it's possible to play pool without a pause.

As for semantics, depending on the student, I may try to stay away from the word 'pause' completely because it gets some students all messed up in consciously thinking about 'pausing,' because they associate the word with a longer period of time... at least MY students do. The only time I really bring it up is when someone's backstroke is too fast which can cause major problems in their stroke timing.

Players that take substantial pauses at the top of their backstrokes don't have to worry about the speed at which they bring back their cue. It eiliminates that variable completely. It's a choice they make. For me, I'm okay with just making sure I bring the cue back smoothly and slowly. It accomplishes the same thing as the longer pause.

I do like to use the word 'pause' however, to describe the last stop at the cue ball just before the final backstroke. I often say that you can tell a good player when by watching them, you can tell when they're going to pull the trigger.

Fran

bradb
10-23-2007, 12:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> You know that little loopy thing that Efren sometimes does? That's a continuous motion loop from his backswing into his forward swing. So, yes, it's possible to play pool without a pause.

As for semantics, depending on the student, I may try to stay away from the word 'pause' completely because it gets some students all messed up in consciously thinking about 'pausing,' because they associate the word with a longer period of time... at least MY students do. The only time I really bring it up is when someone's backstroke is too fast which can cause major problems in their stroke timing.

Players that take substantial pauses at the top of their backstrokes don't have to worry about the speed at which they bring back their cue. It eiliminates that variable completely. It's a choice they make. For me, I'm okay with just making sure I bring the cue back smoothly and slowly. It accomplishes the same thing as the longer pause.

I do like to use the word 'pause' however, to describe the last stop at the cue ball just before the final backstroke. I often say that you can tell a good player when by watching them, you can tell when they're going to pull the trigger.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Fran, I feather the ball about the same pace backward as forward, Thats so I can smooth out the stroke, but when I lock in, I hold for a sec with tip near the Qball then pull back slowly, keeping that locked in sighting all through the backstroke. When I pause (hold, stop) I'm keeping that aiming point for the beginning of the forward stroke. That's about the best way I can describe how it works for me. If I come forward too quickly I lose my sighting.-brad

Deeman3
10-23-2007, 12:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> "I would love to have that technically perfect (to me) stroke he has that seems to hold up so well under the pressure."
"A man's got to know his limitations" <font color="blue">
Dirty Harry (No, not Dirty Harry Read!) would be proud of you. </font color>
I've heard that your stroke "folds like a cheap suit" once the stakes get over $5 a game. <font color="blue">

You got that right. People come from further than you are just to drive that point home. </font color>
I'm thinking if I ever really need some extra cash....knowing there's a "mark" down there in Bama land just waiting to be plucked....it's like having an emergency secret Swiss bank account

<font color="blue"> I always have an open table for the Wolfdancer. No reason everyone else should build their bank account off me and you not have the same opportunity. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

By the way, if you do ever make it down here and manage to get safe passage through all the red states you will have to fly over, we can team up as the "AARP tag team of aged hustlers who are still able to run racks" (just not in the same day)....

I'll save some of my 401K money just for you..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Come on...snort some of that Kalifornia Geritol and git on down here...</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Fran Crimi
10-23-2007, 12:12 PM
Brad,

I'm not a fan of bringing the cue back as fast as you want it to move forward. It may happen by coincicence sometimes, but that's about it. Think of throwing a ball, or even throwing a punch or a karate kick. There should be a wind up, and that wind up belongs only to you. It's your personal timing on the way back. The forward stroke is the one that changes speed, depending on what you want to accomplish with the cue ball.

Fran

1Time
10-23-2007, 12:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> I'm curious, Mr. 1 Time...if you're so open to learning, why did you refuse to show up when Randyg made the offer to meet up with you in Las Vegas, to give you some FREE advice? He was there at the appointed time and place (Cue Club), but you never showed up. To me, that says a lot about you... /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

I can't say for sure you're wrong about having made an appointment with Randyg because I don't remember doing so. However, I do remember having made an appointment some time ago with someone through BD to meet at the Cue Club, don't remember who though, but I was there before and after the appointed time waiting on the ramp as agreed and this person never showed. I just assumed he changed his mind or we got our signals crossed. But I can tell you this for sure though, if offered free advise while the person was standing in front of me, I definitely would be open to receiving it. Does this also tell you a lot about me?

bradb
10-23-2007, 12:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Brad,

I'm not a fan of bringing the cue back as fast as you want it to move forward. It may happen by coincicence sometimes, but that's about it. Think of throwing a ball, or even throwing a punch or a karate kick. There should be a wind up, and that wind up belongs only to you. It's your personal timing on the way back. The forward stroke is the one that changes.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

No thats not what I said. I feather the stroke at even speed but when locked in I pull back slowly so to keep the sighting locked in. (Pulling the trigger.)

Bob_Jewett
10-23-2007, 12:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> ... You guys can play semantics all you like, but for students of the game, our descriptions and instructional advice is what matters most to those who come to us for help in learning to play better. ... <hr /></blockquote>
Well, maybe, but I think it is better to have explanations that are both useful to the student and technically correct, and I think it's possible and fairly easy to have both. You seem to be missing the second part.

I think that if we got someone involved who did sports kinetics for a living, they would have some interesting things to say about the difference (or lack of difference) between a pause, which by my definition has a time of both zero motion and zero acceleration, and a reversal of direction with non-zero acceleration during that reversal. I suspect that the two motions are very different physiologically/mechanically and the differences can make a lot of difference to the player.

Anybody here know a sports kinesiologist?

A pause clearly works very well for some people, and I think other people would do a lot better if they adopted a pause (by my definition). But there are quite a few great players who do not use a pause like Allison Fisher (and by my definition).

Jal
10-23-2007, 04:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Steve,

Strictly, the word "pause" does imply stopping for more than an "instant." When a player has an obvious "pause" between the end of their back-swing and the beginning of their forward-swing, I like to refer to it as a "deliberate pause" or a "distinct pause." Here, the implication is clear: the cue is held stationary (stopped) for more than an instant....<hr /></blockquote>

Well, Dave and 1 Time, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Neither of you are instructors, so your personal description of the action doesn't mean much to us that teach real world pool on a daily basis. Regardless of what you say, there is a pause at the backswing, whether it is momentary, or "deliberate/distinct"....There is no scientific explanation that pronounces how long a time frame has to be to be interpreted as a pause...<hr /></blockquote>Scott, I think science, especially the strange world of modern physics, would say that using the fact that the cue changes direction to infer that it must stop along the way, even if it were constrained to absolutely move in one dimension, is not correct. Strictly speaking, you could never actually measure it at zero velocity, no matter how precise your apparatus.... well, you could, but you would then have no simultaneous info on where in the universe the cue was located! And therefore, even more strictly speaking, to say that the cue does come to a complete stop at some point, is meaningless. (This is, I'm fairly sure, how the principle developers of quantum mechanics would interpret it.)

At any rate, I think this lends support to Dr. Dave's usage of the word "pause" - it's more than a momentary thing. And as Bob Jewett points out, the "moment" of zero acceleration, where there is a "pause" in the force applied, does not necessarily correspond to the moment of "zero velocity". To bring the cue to zero velocity during the backstroke, you do have to reverse the direction of the force you're applying to the cue. And then for a deliberate and noticeable pause at the end of the backstroke, you have zero out the applied force again.

Are two pauses better than one? For a power shot probably not, at least in terms of attainable cue speed. Colin Colenso has brought this to our attention with the theory of eccentric muscle contractions, wherein more force can be applied (it is theorized), while the muscle is being stretched or lengthened. Of course, this is not your normal stroke.

Jim

dr_dave
10-23-2007, 04:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>Well, Dave and 1 Time, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.<hr /></blockquote>Scott,

I have no problem with how BCA instructors use the term "pause," because I know what they mean.

However, I (and many others in this thread) still prefer to use the term "pause" (or "deliberate pause") to imply a distinct stopping for a measurable amount of time (i.e., not for just an "instant"). This is based both on common usage (i.e., Webster's) and scientific usage (e.g., in calculus and physics). However, I don't think this is worth debating. As long as you are clear with what you mean, that's all that matters.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>Neither of you are instructors, so your personal description of the action doesn't mean much to us that teach real world pool on a daily basis.<hr /></blockquote>Actually, I do teach a pool course through the City of Fort Collins. I started this fall, and it will continue indefinitely. We use a great pool room in a local city recreational facility. We have lots of good resources (most of which are posted here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/index.html) for others to use). We also do thorough digital video analysis. I teach the course with a top regional player (Dave Gross). We make a great team.

I'm also an instructional columnist for Billiards Digest magazine, and have written a popular book on pool fundamentals and principles.

I've also been a teacher for most of my adult life. I have tutored and taught many different topics over the years. I have also won many awards for my teaching.

I'm not a full-time pool instructor like you and others, but I think I have just as much right to contribute to discussions concerning pool instruction as anybody else.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>Regardless of what you say, there is a pause at the backswing, whether it is momentary, or "deliberate/distinct".<hr /></blockquote>I don't think any further debate on this can help. I accept your definition. When I hear you or Randy or Steve use the term "pause," I know what you mean. That's all that really matters.

Regards,
Dave

pooltchr
10-23-2007, 06:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>
Yes, but that's a very big if when limited to using human hands with a pool cue or golf club.

<hr /></blockquote>
Actually, it isn't that difficult at all. Since the human elbow is a hinge type joint, if the only motion in your stroke comes between the elbow and the wrist, then the only motion you can have is either straight forward or straight backward. Since the goal of the stroke is to move the cue in a straight line, we (SPF instructors) find that the pendulum is the easiest way to ensure that the cue moves in one of two directions...straight back or straight forward.

As for the pause, I liken it to backing your car out of the driveway. If you put it in drive while you are still rolling backward, there is a noticable jerk in the motion of the car. If you come to a complete and deliberate pause, the start up is much smoother. Since I don't want a jerking motion in my stroke, I use a deliberate pause. When my students do it, I see the same thing happen in their stroke.

If you don't want to stop at the end of your backstroke, I'm certainly not going to tell you that you have to. If you want a smooth transition, then it's probably a good idea.
Ultimately, it's your stroke and your game to do with as you please. Since you didn't come to me to ask my opinion, I will leave it at that. My students come to me to learn, and I share with them what I know to be true. If they choose to ignore it, that is up to them. If they try it and see that it works, they usually incorporate it into their game.

I don't tell anyone they MUST do anything...I just offer suggestions.

Steve

Scott Lee
10-23-2007, 09:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> ]I don't think any further debate on this can help. I accept your definition. When I hear you or Randy or Steve use the term "pause," I know what you mean. That's all that really matters.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Dave...As do our students! That's all I was trying to get you to do in the first place, instead of posting umteen times arguing about semantics. What matters most is how the student perceives the information, and whether it's valuable enough to them, to put it into practice...not about whether you (or the other semantics guys) want to believe or disbelieve that a 'pause'/stop at the end of the backswing has to have a particular time frame associated with it in order to be called that. Geezopete!

Scott Lee

av84fun
10-23-2007, 10:57 PM
1Time..."It is not uncommon for golfers to work on their swing by hitting shots from a complete stop at the top of the backswing. However, golfers don't do this in competition because it takes too much away from their game."

Respectfully, yes golfers DO pause at the top of their swing. A proper forward swing is initiated entirely with the lower body and the hands/arms are to be "left behind" and passive. In fact, one of the worst swing faults there is is to initiate the forward swing with the hands/arms.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
10-23-2007, 11:22 PM
I've already commented on another post but to be clear, the golf swing is, of course, dramatically different than the pool stroke. In golf, the entire body is supposed to move and that is obviously not so in the pool stroke.

But what DOES "pause" in the correct golf swing is the hands and arms at the top of the swing. The golf swing is initiated with various parts of the lower body, in sequence, and the hands and arms are eventually pulled through by the body with little or no FORCE applied by the hands and arms until the forward swing is roughly half over. The angle formed by the hands/arms/golf club should remain almost unchanged (because of "pausing" by consciously NOT applying much, if any force" until the left arm has returned to a position nearly parallel with the ground during the forward swing. Doing anything else...in other words...using conscious force with the hands and arms prior to that position is called "casting" and is the DEATH of the golf swing.

Here is a utube secquence of Hogan's swing and as you can see, the lower body moves significantly (forward and around) before the hands/arms move at all thereby confirming that a pause has in fact, taken place.

As I have noted, ONE of the reasons to adopt a pause in the pool stroke is to avoid the "hit instinct" that is fatal to the golf swing...in other words, rushing forward with the hands and arms in the golf swing which is the same as rushing forward with the pool stroke before the backstroke is completed and the eye refocussed on the object ball.
http://swingtheorygolf.wordpress.com/2007/10/10/swing-theorys-perfect-ben-hogan-swing-video-clip/

av84fun
10-23-2007, 11:41 PM
Ok time...just one last comment on your comments:

"A pause as it pertains to a golf swing or pool stroke does not refer to any length of time from a millisecond or more. It refers to a noticeable suspension of action, a pause, between the back stroke or swing and the forward stroke. And, any educated person with an ounce of humility can readily understand and accept this.

Thus, there is no stop, and there is no pause with any stroke or swing that has no noticeable pause."

In my personal opinion, I think you are WAY of base challenging the education or humility of anyone just because they don't agree with you...let alone directing such remarks to one of the most respected teachers in pool.

You suggest that the pause in a golf or pool swing...being however brief, is "technical" but it is NOT "technical."

It is obvious that for any mass to reverse direction, it must FIRST COME TO A STOP...A DEAD STOP... as in a ZERO MOTION....PERIOD, END OF STORY, NEXT TOPIC kind of a stop.

You can quite correctly argue that some stops or pauses are longer than others but to argue that there is no stop or pause at all when objects reverse directions will lose a betting man a LOT of money because that man is simply wrong.

It is true that the obvious, intentional and quite correct pause at the top of a golf swing is shorter than one recommended and used by lots of pool teachers and pros but citing that fact to suggest that a longer pause in the pool swing cannot be beneficial is an inappropriate argument on its face because the golf swing is a massively more aggressive swing involving virtually bone and muscle in the body.

But if you isolate that HANDS AND ARMS in the golf swing and recognize that the phrase "intentionally avoiding the imposition of force" is analagous to the word "pause" then the "pause" of the hands and arms in the golf swing is a lot longer than you think it is.

Regards,
Jim

Jal
10-24-2007, 12:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> ]I don't think any further debate on this can help. I accept your definition. When I hear you or Randy or Steve use the term "pause," I know what you mean. That's all that really matters.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Dave...As do our students! That's all I was trying to get you to do in the first place, instead of posting umteen times arguing about semantics.<hr /></blockquote>Scott, I don't think that's quite fair. In at least one of your posts, you argued that the kind of pause that is being discussed is just an extension of what happens anyway in the process of reversing the cue's direction. But I think, as Dr. Dave pointed out, they really are two different animals. The difference is not merely semantic.

Or, maybe someone needs to define "semantics". /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Jim ...is the horse dead yet?

av84fun
10-24-2007, 12:16 AM
time..."Anyone free-handing a pool cue or golf club is not capable of such mechanical and angular precision. And, whether or not there is a noticeable pause or not, no one is capable of such a "stop" without appropriate mechanical assistance."

No. Actally, the pause is created due to the ABSENCE of "mechanical assistance."

At the very back of the back stroke, the muscles have STOPPED applying ANY force to the pool cue...either backward or forward, which is precisely why the pool cue STOPS before it changes direction.

Consult just about any physics reference and you will see that motion must come to an utter STOP before an opposite motion in the same body of mass can begin.

It's really pretty simple. If v+=velocity in one direction
--------&gt; and v-= velocity in the opposite direction
&lt;---------------- then to change from v+ to v- the mass must first decelerate then reach ZERO v then accelerate from zero to some value of v- in the opposite direction.

You simply CANNOT SKIP ANY VALUE OF velocity either when accelerating from one speed to a higher speed, or declerating from one speed to a slower speed or reversing direction altogether. As velocity changes in either direction EVERY SINGLE infinitesimal speed is passed through...no value can be just skipped...without eliminating TIME which is ummmmm....rather difficult to do.

Consult the literature regarding E=MC2

Also consult the following from a physics site.

Q: "A ball is thrown straight upward from the top of a cliff with an initial velocity of 15 m/sec. Assuming the ball just misses the edge of the cliff on its way down, how fast is it going just before it hits the ground which is 35 m below the ball's starting point?"

A: To solve this problem we first draw a diagram of the problem.
Then, we will divide the problem into two parts. In the first part the ball is traveling upward. In the second part the ball is falling to the bottom of the cliff.

Part I:
<font color="red"> </font color> To determine the time (t) it takes the ball to reach its highest point, we can use the equation v = v0 + at.

1Time
10-24-2007, 12:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> In my personal opinion, I think you are WAY of base challenging the education or humility of anyone just because they don't agree with you...let alone directing such remarks to one of the most respected teachers in pool.<hr /></blockquote>
I got big laugh out of this... LOL.... thanks... and you're right... what was I thinking?... LOL

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>You suggest that the pause in a golf or pool swing...being however brief, is "technical" but it is NOT "technical." <hr /></blockquote>
I can't say I agree or disagree with this because I don't know to what quote of mine you are referring. You lost me.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>It is obvious that for any mass to reverse direction, it must FIRST COME TO A STOP...A DEAD STOP... as in a ZERO MOTION....PERIOD, END OF STORY, NEXT TOPIC kind of a stop. <hr /></blockquote>
You're obviously missing a main point here that has been made. It is possible to change directions without a stop, because a turn or loop is made instead of a stop and reverse motion. It's like a U-turn when you're driving, a change of direction and without a stop.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>You can quite correctly argue that some stops or pauses are longer than others but to argue that there is no stop or pause at all when objects reverse directions will lose a betting man a LOT of money because that man is simply wrong.<hr /></blockquote>
Let's just keep our money in our pockets.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> It is true that the obvious, intentional and quite correct pause at the top of a golf swing is shorter than one recommended and used by lots of pool teachers and pros <hr /></blockquote>
No, I did not site this as fact. And I disagree with it. There is no pause at the top of the golf swing of most pros. It is a continuous motion. I mentioned golf and pool to show the similarity in the traditional golf swing and traditional pool stroke, and that is there is no pause.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>but citing that fact to suggest that a longer pause in the pool swing cannot be beneficial is an inappropriate argument on its face because the golf swing is a massively more aggressive swing involving virtually bone and muscle in the body.<hr /></blockquote>
You've made an argument here against an argument that has not been made. I've never suggested a pause cannot be beneficial in a pool stroke. In fact I have a fairly recent post possibly in another thread that supports the use of a pause as a potential alternative to a more traditional stroke that has no pause.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>But if you isolate that HANDS AND ARMS in the golf swing and recognize that the phrase "intentionally avoiding the imposition of force" is analagous to the word "pause" then the "pause" of the hands and arms in the golf swing is a lot longer than you think it is.<hr /></blockquote>
I suggest re-reading my posts. For all practical intents and purposes, it's only a pause if one notices it.

1Time
10-24-2007, 12:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> time..."Anyone free-handing a pool cue or golf club is not capable of such mechanical and angular precision. And, whether or not there is a noticeable pause or not, no one is capable of such a "stop" without appropriate mechanical assistance."

No. Actally, the pause is created due to the ABSENCE of "mechanical assistance."

At the very back of the back stroke, the muscles have STOPPED applying ANY force to the pool cue...either backward or forward, which is precisely why the pool cue STOPS before it changes direction.

Consult just about any physics reference and you will see that motion must come to an utter STOP before an opposite motion in the same body of mass can begin.

It's really pretty simple. If v+=velocity in one direction
--------&gt; and v-= velocity in the opposite direction
&lt;---------------- then to change from v+ to v- the mass must first decelerate then reach ZERO v then accelerate from zero to some value of v- in the opposite direction.

You simply CANNOT SKIP ANY VALUE OF velocity either when accelerating from one speed to a higher speed, or declerating from one speed to a slower speed or reversing direction altogether. As velocity changes in either direction EVERY SINGLE infinitesimal speed is passed through...no value can be just skipped...without eliminating TIME which is ummmmm....rather difficult to do.

Consult the literature regarding E=MC2

Also consult the following from a physics site.

Q: "A ball is thrown straight upward from the top of a cliff with an initial velocity of 15 m/sec. Assuming the ball just misses the edge of the cliff on its way down, how fast is it going just before it hits the ground which is 35 m below the ball's starting point?"

A: To solve this problem we first draw a diagram of the problem.
Then, we will divide the problem into two parts. In the first part the ball is traveling upward. In the second part the ball is falling to the bottom of the cliff.

Part I:
<font color="red"> </font color> To determine the time (t) it takes the ball to reach its highest point, we can use the equation v = v0 + at.

<hr /></blockquote>

Close your physics book long enough to re-read what's been written in this thread.

Vapros
10-24-2007, 07:41 AM
I'm not a certified instructor, and I slept in a cardboard box under the interstate last night, but I would bet my last forty-two cents that the Dead Crab was not hoping for all this when he asked his question. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

bradb
10-24-2007, 09:04 AM
The horse is dead and beaten into a unrecognizable mass of glue and hair, but i must take one more whack at it.

There is an example of an object going one way then reversing without stopping and that is an engine piston which is rotating on a cam shaft and therefore makes the looping action that Fran refered to. I've never looked at Reyes's stroke closely but he must be doing something like that.

if we look at the cylinder wall it is perfectly vertical and the piston must confine to it, yet the action of the cam never stops... I'm interested in the physics behind this from the techies.

I'n no techie but I think I saw Vapros in an adjoining box under the underpass last night, /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Jal
10-24-2007, 10:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>...At the very back of the back stroke, the muscles have STOPPED applying ANY force to the pool cue...either backward or forward, which is precisely why the pool cue STOPS before it changes direction.<hr /></blockquote>The cue stops because a forward force was applied to oppose its backward travel motion.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>Consult just about any physics reference and you will see that motion must come to an utter STOP before an opposite motion in the same body of mass can begin.

It's really pretty simple. If v+=velocity in one direction
--------&gt; and v-= velocity in the opposite direction
&lt;---------------- then to change from v+ to v- the mass must first decelerate then reach ZERO v then accelerate from zero to some value of v- in the opposite direction.<hr /></blockquote>For all practical purposes, certainly for pool, you're right.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>You simply CANNOT SKIP ANY VALUE OF velocity either when accelerating from one speed to a higher speed, or declerating from one speed to a slower speed or reversing direction altogether. As velocity changes in either direction EVERY SINGLE infinitesimal speed is passed through...no value can be just skipped...without eliminating TIME which is ummmmm....rather difficult to do. <hr /></blockquote>When you bring in "infinitesimal", that's where we encounter a problem.

Common sense tells us that what you say is true, but the real physical world doesn't conform to our common sense notons, at least when looked at under a microscope. The velocity of an object cannot be measured with infinite precision, even if you had infinitely accurate tools to do the job. According to the standard interpretation, it cannot be measured with infinite accuracy because it simply has no absolutely well-defined velocity. To say that such and such is moving at 8.63745829568.... feet/second, where the string of decimals runs on forever, cannot be done, even conceptually, unless you simultaneously conceed all knowledge of the object's position. This is known as the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. It's a pedantic point, but as Mac (Cushioncrawler) says, it's the thought that counts.

Classical physics (physics before the 20'th century) would completely agree with you. And as far as pool goes, we can safely stick with classical physics - it's by far a good enough approximation. It's just that saying that an object must come to an absolute stop before reversing, and saying that this is true with infinite precision, brings up problems.

Jim

bradb
10-24-2007, 01:13 PM
Classical physics (physics before the 20'th century) would completely agree with you. And as far as pool goes, we can safely stick with classical physics - it's by far a good enough approximation. It's just that saying that an object must come to an absolute stop before reversing, and saying that this is true with infinite precision, brings up problems.

Jim <hr /></blockquote>

Jim, I noted that a piston is a continous motion with out stopping because its on a camshaft. Your're thoughts on this. - brad

dr_dave
10-24-2007, 01:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> The horse is dead and beaten into a unrecognizable mass of glue and hair<hr /></blockquote>I agree completely ... but ... /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>There is an example of an object going one way then reversing without stopping and that is an engine piston which is rotating on a cam shaft<hr /></blockquote>Sorry, but being a mechanical engineering professor in my day job, I had to chime in here. The crank and cam shafts are turning, and the connecting rod moves in a complicated way, but the piston moves in a straight line. That's why people refer to a perfectly straight pool stroke, where the cue moves in a straight line, a "piston stroke." In an engine, during the compression stroke, the piston is moving "backward" (negative speed); and in the power stroke, the piston is moving "forward" (positive speed). Even at high engine rpms, the piston does come to a complete stop (speed = zero) at top-dead-center. It is impossible for the speed to change sign (direction) and not go through zero. Now, the speed is zero only for an instant, so the piston doesn't appear to have a "deliberate pause."

Here is a good animation (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/mech324/handouts/cam_stuff/cylinder_combustion_cycle_animation.gif) and high-speed video (http://www.youtube.com//watch?v=sEf8va1S7Sw) that show what the piston (and vales and spark plug) does in your engine. The piston does "stop" but it does not "linger" ("pause" for a finite amount of time).

Regards,
Dave

SKennedy
10-24-2007, 01:31 PM
It's real simple....if you are in fact reversing your motion...forward/backward and up/down, etc. then you will pause although it may not be perceptible. Changing direction without actually reversing the movement...such as a looping motion (cam shaft included) does not result in a pause. The key here is changing direction vs reversal of direction. In slow motion draw a circle with your finger....result is no pause. Now, draw a line in one direction with finger and then reverse direction. Note the pause? You can speed things up so the pause is not perceptible, but the pause is still there....deliberate or otherwise. Physics agrees with me...I'm just trying to keep it simple so that even I can understand it.

Deeman3
10-24-2007, 01:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> Common sense tells us that what you say is true, but the real physical world doesn't conform to our common sense notons, at least when looked at under a microscope. The velocity of an object cannot be measured with infinite precision, even if you had infinitely accurate tools to do the job. According to the standard interpretation, it cannot be measured with infinite accuracy because it simply has no absolutely well-defined velocity. To say that such and such is moving at 8.63745829568.... feet/second, where the string of decimals runs on forever, cannot be done, even conceptually, unless you simultaneously conceed all knowledge of the object's position. This is known as the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. It's a pedantic point, but as Mac (Cushioncrawler) says, it's the thought that counts.

Classical physics (physics before the 20'th century) would completely agree with you. And as far as pool goes, we can safely stick with classical physics - it's by far a good enough approximation. It's just that saying that an object must come to an absolute stop before reversing, and saying that this is true with infinite precision, brings up problems.

Jim <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Common sense tells me that if you need this close a look at a mere pause in the back of a billiard stroke, the reasons it may help some people shoot a little better may escape you. Do we really believe this level of detail is important to the application of a pause?

It would seem that a person might try a pause, weather it exists in terms of quantum certainty (or more appropriately uncertainty) and do it if it seems to help and not do it it seems a waste of time.

Maybe I'm all wet but will this level of knowledge have any practical application to a game played on cloth with plastic balls? </font color>

dr_dave
10-24-2007, 02:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> Common sense tells us that what you say is true, but the real physical world doesn't conform to our common sense notons, at least when looked at under a microscope. The velocity of an object cannot be measured with infinite precision, even if you had infinitely accurate tools to do the job. According to the standard interpretation, it cannot be measured with infinite accuracy because it simply has no absolutely well-defined velocity. To say that such and such is moving at 8.63745829568.... feet/second, where the string of decimals runs on forever, cannot be done, even conceptually, unless you simultaneously conceed all knowledge of the object's position. This is known as the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. It's a pedantic point, but as Mac (Cushioncrawler) says, it's the thought that counts.

Classical physics (physics before the 20'th century) would completely agree with you. And as far as pool goes, we can safely stick with classical physics - it's by far a good enough approximation. It's just that saying that an object must come to an absolute stop before reversing, and saying that this is true with infinite precision, brings up problems.<hr /></blockquote><font color="blue"> Common sense tells me that if you need this close a look at a mere pause in the back of a billiard stroke, the reasons it may help some people shoot a little better may escape you. Do we really believe this level of detail is important to the application of a pause?

It would seem that a person might try a pause, weather it exists in terms of quantum certainty (or more appropriately uncertainty) and do it if it seems to help and not do it it seems a waste of time.

Maybe I'm all wet but will this level of knowledge have any practical application to a game played on cloth with plastic balls? </font color><hr /></blockquote>Agreed. This level of debate over the meaning of the word "pause" is not so important. Although, I am glad that people are being clear with the terminology, even if physics enters the discussion.

Don't you think you are being a little harsh with Jim. I know it is in your nature to be "straightforward," but give the guy a break. He's put up with more than his fair share of abuse lately.

Now, I'm sure you and Jim would both agree with this: whether or not a player has a rushed transition from the backstroke to forward stroke is critically important in the "game played on cloth with plastic balls." Also, some (but certainly not all) people might benefit by adding a "deliberate pause" before their final forward stroke.

Regards,
Dave

Jal
10-24-2007, 02:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>Jim, I noted that a piston is a continous motion with out stopping because its on a camshaft. Your're thoughts on this. - brad <hr /></blockquote>Brad, I would say that for all practical purposes, it does stop, as Dr. Dave indicated. But by "stop", I don't mean absolute zero velocity to the thousand'th decimal place. The only reason I brought this admittedly extremely picayune point up was that it was asserted that a cue/piston must pass through absolute zero veloctiy, and that this can be considered a 'pause'. Hard as it may be to comprehend, and it is very hard, this just isn't true according to the standard interpretation of modern mechanics.

Clearly, and I think this what you're refering to, the connecting rod never stops. But in the common sense version of physics, the piston does.

Jim

Jal
10-24-2007, 03:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> Common sense tells us that what you say is true, but the real physical world doesn't conform to our common sense notons, at least when looked at under a microscope. The velocity of an object cannot be measured with infinite precision, even if you had infinitely accurate tools to do the job. According to the standard interpretation, it cannot be measured with infinite accuracy because it simply has no absolutely well-defined velocity. To say that such and such is moving at 8.63745829568.... feet/second, where the string of decimals runs on forever, cannot be done, even conceptually, unless you simultaneously conceed all knowledge of the object's position. This is known as the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. It's a pedantic point, but as Mac (Cushioncrawler) says, it's the thought that counts.

Classical physics (physics before the 20'th century) would completely agree with you. And as far as pool goes, we can safely stick with classical physics - it's by far a good enough approximation. It's just that saying that an object must come to an absolute stop before reversing, and saying that this is true with infinite precision, brings up problems.

Jim <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Common sense tells me that if you need this close a look at a mere pause in the back of a billiard stroke, the reasons it may help some people shoot a little better may escape you. Do we really believe this level of detail is important to the application of a pause?

It would seem that a person might try a pause, weather it exists in terms of quantum certainty (or more appropriately uncertainty) and do it if it seems to help and not do it it seems a waste of time.

Maybe I'm all wet but will this level of knowledge have any practical application to a game played on cloth with plastic balls? </font color> <hr /></blockquote>Deeman, you won't get any argument from me as to the practicality of this aspect of the discussion. But if nothing else, I though it a little bit interesting and might support the view that having the cue pass through zero velocity (or near zero velocity as per my point) does not constitute a pause.

I, for one, would like to read more about why what we all agree upon as a definite pause can or does help.

Jim (thanks Dr. Dave)

MikeM
10-24-2007, 03:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> notons, at least when looked at under a microscope. <hr /></blockquote>

I'd love to see some pictures of notons under a microscope. I bet they look cool /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

MM...sorry, Jal, but thread needs some lightening up.

wolfdancer
10-24-2007, 03:23 PM
I pause at the end of both the forward and the back stroke for two reasons...at my age, I need the rest to gather strength, and it gives me some time to figure out what the next move is.
When I didn't pause,that's when I began my forward stroke,before completing the back stroke...and the results weren't purty. Tom, who made the Dean's list at RandyG's student/teacher academy, helped me add that to my stroke.
I figure if I can coax a tidbit of info out of him each time I see him, I'll have the whole course for free in just a couple of years....it's like Napster for pool.
Here's my tip to become a better player yourself
encourage a friend to go to Cue-Tech
afterwards, make him your new best friend
for the price of a couple of drinks........you get yerself the finest instruction his money could buy...and you don't have to step foot into Texas.....

bradb
10-24-2007, 03:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>Jim, I noted that a piston is a continous motion with out stopping because its on a camshaft. Your're thoughts on this. - brad <hr /></blockquote>Brad, I would say that for all practical purposes, it does stop, as Dr. Dave indicated. But by "stop", I don't mean absolute zero velocity to the thousand'th decimal place. The only reason I brought this admittedly extremely picayune point up was that it was asserted that a cue/piston must pass through absolute zero veloctiy, and that this can be considered a 'pause'. Hard as it may be to comprehend, and it is very hard, this just isn't true according to the standard interpretation of modern mechanics.

Clearly, and I think this what you're refering to, the connecting rod never stops. But in the common sense version of physics, the piston does.

Jim <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks Jim. Yes I see the point. A looping action which does not pause must have room to revolve no matter how infinite, other wise if it is exactly on 1 plane then it must reach zero velocity before it returns as you and Dave state.

I never thought I would be returning to physics class playing pool... ain't science wunnerful!! brad /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

pooltchr
10-24-2007, 05:53 PM
Deeman,
You do have a way of cutting to the bottom line. Whether or not there is a pause at the end of every backstroke isn't going to make anyone a better player. Developing a consistant, repeatable stroke with a smooth transition that moves the cue forward in a straight line very well might. The discussion here is gone from pool to physics. I think it gets difficult sometimes for some to see the forest for the trees. Try a pause, if you like it, keep it. If you don't, don't keep it.

My job as an instructor is to offer proven suggestions that I believe will help my students get better. If someone doesn't like it, they certainly don't have to do it.

Steve

Jal
10-24-2007, 05:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote MikeM:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> notons, at least when looked at under a microscope. <hr /></blockquote>

I'd love to see some pictures of notons under a microscope. I bet they look cool /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

MM...sorry, Jal, but thread needs some lightening up. <hr /></blockquote>Mike, that lousy spellcheck must have altered my original "noshons". Can't rely on anything.

Jim

av84fun
10-24-2007, 11:10 PM
1Time Quote av84fun:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is true that the obvious, intentional and quite correct pause at the top of a golf swing is shorter than one recommended and used by lots of pool teachers and pros
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quoting 1 time

"No, I did not site this as fact. And I disagree with it. There is no pause at the top of the golf swing of most pros. It is a continuous motion. I mentioned golf and pool to show the similarity in the traditional golf swing and traditional pool stroke, and that is there is no pause. "

Right, you didn't cite it as fact...I did. And as I have pointed out, the motion of the hands and arms in the golf swing...as opposed to various parts of the torso and lower body is anything BUT a continuous motion.

A correct backswing reaches the top with the club nearly level with the ground and with a near maximum cocking of the wrists AND THE HANDS AND ARMS ARE INTENTIONALLY LEFT AS THEY ARE WITH NO CONSCIOUS MUSCULAR FORCE APPLIED BY THE ARM OR WRIST MUSCLES. This is referred to as being "passive at the top" with the arms and hands and having that FULLY PAUSED unit (arms/hands/golf club) to be pulled through by an aggressive movement of the torso/lower body.

In fact, about the worst thing you can do in a golf swing...other than have a heart attack, is to apply ANY force with the arms/wrists before the initiation of the downswing by the lower body. Doing the opposite is called casting and your swing is promptly ruined.

Even loopy golf swings such as those employed by Trevino Chi Chi and Furyk in the modern era STILL "leave the hands and arms back once the club is looped...AS THEY DO...into the correct position at the top.

If you look at stop action views of classic golf swings, you will see that two things happen. 1. There is a DEFINATE pause at the top as the motion of the swing reverses direction along nearly the identical plane of the backswing and 2. the position of the hands/wrists/arms remains virtually unchanged until the leading arm (left arm or right handed golfer) has passed back through a position parallel to the ground. That UNDISTURBED AND THEREFORE PAUSED UNIT staying undisturbed until that point is reached is sets up what is called the "delayed release" and it is that delayed release that results in at least 75% of the club head speed created by a golf swing.

Because we mortals do not or cannot maintain the relationship between the hands and arms for NEARLY as long as the pros do explains why we hit driver 225-250 and the pros hit it 300-350.

It would be incorrect to suggest that because the hands and arms MOVE downward and forward once the lower body causes them to do so, that the hands/wrists/arms unit is not "paused."

That unit is paused IN RELATION TO ITSELF. In other words, there is no perceptible change in the relationship between the components of THAT UNIT...even though THAT UNIT is changing position relative to the rest of the body but still THAT UNIT is paused.

Hit some golf shots from the bed of a flat bed trailer moving down the highway. Intentionally FREEZE the motion of YOUR BODY at the top of the swing...hold it there for 30 seconds so there can be no argument that you didn't pause YOUR BODY...and then let someone argue that you DID NOT pause because the truck was moving.

The same is true with a correct golf swing executed normally on the ground. The hands/wrist/arms UNIT remains almost totally paused in relation to ITSELF...in ADDITION to a momentary pause as that unit changes directions.

But getting back to the point which is the pool stroke, forget about the momentary pause occasioned by the change in direction of the stroke...that is not the point. The point is that several pros (a growing number actually) including world champions...employ a DEFINATE...NO FOOLING...ACTUAL..INTENTIONAL pause before initiating the forward stroke.

I have done my best to explain my understanding as to why they do that. I am not suggesting that such a pause is correct for everyone...possibly not even most players. But it has improved MY game substantially and it is my opinion...and nothing more than my opinion...that the pause would improve the game of a SIGNIFICANT percentage of the players who would work hard enough to fully incorporate the pause into their stroke.

I think I've said as much on this subject (and probably more) as would be useful.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
10-24-2007, 11:23 PM
bradb..."if we look at the cylinder wall it is perfectly vertical and the piston must confine to it, yet the action of the cam never stops... I'm interested in the physics behind this from the techies. "

Easy. The cam, as you know, is an oblong object connected to a shaft that rotates causing the cam to spin and as it does, it push/pulls the piston up and down within the cylinder.

But for some number of milliseconds, the oblong cam is oriented dead straight up and down and when it is, the attached piston STOPS rising and if fact stops altogether until the cam passes through top dead center at which point the pistion STARTS descending...but not without a TINY but scientifically measurable pause.

Think of it in terms I mentioned in another post. Objects that are accelerating or descelerating pass through EACH AND EVERY tiny but measurable velocity...they DO NOT SKIP any such velocities. When an object decelerates in velocity and then changes direction...just like your piston in the cylinder example....ONE of the velocity values it MUST pass through is ZERO. The pistion CANNOT move up and then down without having passed through zero velocity because if it did, it would be going in two directions at the same time which is clearly not possible...except, of course, for wives...and I mean that as a high compliment!
Regards,
Jim

av84fun
10-24-2007, 11:31 PM
jal..." It's just that saying that an object must come to an absolute stop before reversing, and saying that this is true with infinite precision, brings up problems."

Thanks for your interesting post. But I said that objects must pass through all measurable velocities...but you very correctly pointed out my misuse of the word "infinitisimal" which means "incapable of being measured." My bad. I should have said "tiny."

Thanks for pointing that out.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
10-24-2007, 11:39 PM
wolfdancer..."I pause at the end of both the forward and the back stroke for two reasons...at my age, I need the rest to gather strength, and it gives me some time to figure out what the next move is."

Discussing the pause at the FORWARD portion of the stroke may give us a welcome change of pace. There is a GROWING movement in the ranks of top players to do just that...not the least of which is SVB who I know and who I think has a shot at becoming the best in the world in a year or two (if he is not already).

Also, Stevie Moore who can be SCARY good uses the longest pause at the front I have ever seen. What he is doing is that old fashioned technique called AIMING.

A growing number of pros are adopting the thesis that NOTHING that you do right...CB speed, direction after impact etc. matters IF YOU MISS THE SHOT!! So he and others are making absolutely SURE of their aim before initiating the backstroke. IMHO

Regards,
Jim

1Time
10-25-2007, 12:12 AM
av84fun,

I really would like to discuss these matters with you, in depth, however I find your style of writing and lack of use of the quote function too difficult and time consuming to sift through and decipher what you write. Perhaps others follow you more easily, I don't know. But if you instead outlined your replies such as the following example, I would be glad to proceed. That way I could more easily cut to the chase of what you're saying and quickly show where you are wrong and why. Short of that, I would be forced to disregard your posts. No offense intended.

1Time:
There is no pause in any continuous pool stroke or golf swing.

av84fun:
A. I disagree. I say there is a pause in every golf swing and here's why.
1. la, la, la, and that's supported by these examples:
a. example 1
b. example 2
c. example 3
2. And another reason is x, y, z, and that's supported by the following:
a. link to a golf site
b. names of golfers
c. size of shoes they wear
B. And I say there is a pause in every pool players stroke and here's why.
1. la, la, la, and that's supported by the following:
a. zip
b. idee
c. dooda
C. Further, when the moon and the stars are aligned just right, pool shooters and golfers all come together and sing coom-by-ya.
It's an ancient tradition and here's why and how this affects their stroke and swing.
a. x
b. y
c. z

Snapshot9
10-25-2007, 06:38 AM
The point is NOT whether there is pause, there always is, but how long that pause is, and whether it is a conscious or planned pause. This gives way to whether there is any adjustment during the pause, that is the big question. If there are adjustments during the pause, then I feel that consistency is affected in a negative way overall.

When considering the technical details (logic oriented), it resembles science, but when put together in a beautiful way, it looks more like an Art form(natural). Art forms represent fluidity in its representation (Analog), science represents digital steps in its representation (detail steps combined).

When considering what I said, consider 2 people learning a new dance step, all the individual steps to it, yet one person can move so fluid doing the dance, while the other will look totally mechanical doing the dance.

Jal
10-25-2007, 10:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Snapshot9:</font><hr> The point is NOT whether there is pause, there always is, ...<hr /></blockquote>Snapshot, arguments have been presented by 1Time, Dr. Dave, and myself as to why we think this isn't so. As more time has already been spent on this than it deserves, I'll leave it at that.

Jim ...the horse lives!

av84fun
10-25-2007, 10:29 AM
1 time..."I really would like to discuss these matters with you, in depth, however I find your style of writing and lack of use of the quote function too difficult and time consuming to sift through and decipher what you write. "

I am really sorry that you don't care for my style of writing and that you suggest you are reluctant to continue this dialog because of it.

However, up to this point you have been able to discern my points sufficiently to have relied in depth several times.

One possible explanation for your new found reluctance to continue the dialog is that I have succeeded in pointing out the errors in your comments and I understand that gets increasingly bothersome with repetition.

In a prior post you wrote:

"A pause as it pertains to a golf swing or pool stroke does not refer to any length of time from a millisecond or more. It refers to a noticeable suspension of action, a pause, between the back stroke or swing and the forward stroke. And, any educated person with an ounce of humility can readily understand and accept this."

You seem quite prepared to level criticisms, including not only your trivial comments on my writing style but you also implied a lack of education and/or humility on the part of one of the most respected pool instructors on the planet.

This is a billiards-oriented forum not and English lit class so your comments on my writing style and other people's educational achievements...or lack thereof...are irrelevant and petty.

If you cannot fathom my writing style I will have to find a way to live with that.

As for my use of quotation marks instead of the quote function, some unknown billions of remarks have been set off by quotation marks since the dawn of literature and to quote you..."any educated person with an ounce of humility can readily understand and accept this."

Regards,
Jim
PS: I don't use the spell checker either. I ain't no typist, I dunt have the time this izzent no lit class. (-:

Scott Lee
10-25-2007, 10:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Snapshot9:</font><hr> The point is NOT whether there is pause, there always is, ...<hr /></blockquote>Snapshot, arguments have been presented by 1Time, Dr. Dave, and myself as to why we <font color="red"> think </font color> this isn't so. As more time has already been spent on this than it deserves, I'll leave it at that.

Jim ...the horse lives! <hr /></blockquote>

Jim...and many of us have the opposite opinion...so like I said earlier to dr. dave, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Scott Lee

bradb
10-25-2007, 10:51 AM
Easy. The cam, as you know, is an oblong object connected to a shaft that rotates causing the cam to spin and as it does, it push/pulls the piston up and down within the cylinder.

But for some number of milliseconds, the oblong cam is oriented dead straight up and down and when it is, the attached piston STOPS rising and if fact stops altogether until the cam passes through top dead center at which point the pistion STARTS descending...but not without a TINY but scientifically measurable pause.

Think of it in terms I mentioned in another post. Objects that are accelerating or descelerating pass through EACH AND EVERY tiny but measurable velocity...they DO NOT SKIP any such velocities. When an object decelerates in velocity and then changes direction...just like your piston in the cylinder example....ONE of the velocity values it MUST pass through is ZERO. The pistion CANNOT move up and then down without having passed through zero velocity because if it did, it would be going in two directions at the same time which is clearly not possible...except, of course, for wives...and I mean that as a high compliment!
Regards,
Jim
<hr /></blockquote>

OK, lets look at that action (which in all respects we are really talking about the connecting rod). At the cam end the rod never changes velocity. At the other it must reach zero velocity then return. At what point along that rod is zero reached?... At the middle... 3/4 of the way up or at the very tip of the rod at the piston. In a way the rod is moving in two different directions at the same time, it depends on which end we examine. My head hurts, I must pause and collect my self. cool:

Jager85
10-25-2007, 12:30 PM
Numerous people here are confusing 'pause' with 'zero speed'. According to the dictionary a pause is 'To cease or suspend an action temporarily.' The action is not being suspended, rather reaching zero speed and reversing in the same motion.

Also, this argument is a waste of time, IMO, as everyone is different and there is no silver bullet. What works for me won't work for you.

1Time
10-25-2007, 12:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>
PS: I don't use the spell checker either. I ain't no typist, I dunt have the time this izzent no lit class. (-: <hr /></blockquote>

At a glance it was apparent you did not organize your reply as I requested, and so I did not read it. I just don't have the time it takes to decipher much of what you write. It's not that I don't want to understand and reply to what you have to say. Sorry, nothing personal.

Fran Crimi
10-25-2007, 02:30 PM
<font color="blue"> HEY YOU GUYS.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif</font color>


http://www.bittermancircle.com/my%20images/BeatDeadHorse.gif

SKennedy
10-25-2007, 02:37 PM
Fran....excellent illustration of the movement we have been discussing....note the up and down movement with a "pause" immediately prior to the change in directions. But, I guess you were well aware of the double irony of using this image? Regardless, thanks.

bradb
10-25-2007, 04:02 PM
I'm falling out of my chair with laughter Fran, nobody can top that!

-brad

pooltchr
10-25-2007, 05:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <font color="blue"> HEY YOU GUYS.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif</font color>


http://www.bittermancircle.com/my%20images/BeatDeadHorse.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

If we could give rep points here, you would have mine!
Steve

1Time
10-25-2007, 05:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> Fran....excellent illustration of the movement we have been discussing....note the up and down movement with a "pause" immediately prior to the change in directions. But, I guess you were well aware of the double irony of using this image? Regardless, thanks. <hr /></blockquote>

I've seen that illustration used a few times in other forums on the net, and it's no surprise to find it in this thread. But I've never seen it used as a relevant illustration to the thread's topic.

And so there's no doubt about it, I definitely see no pause in that animation's up and down movement. However, I do see it stopping about 4 different times, which appear to be mechanically precise, and not pauses.

It's such a shame though that we don't have a less precise animation that's more human like in movement, so I could declare there to be no pause at the top of its up and down movement because of a turning or looping motion.

The only time there would be a pause is if it were noticeable. In this illustration it is noticeable that it stops in a mechanical or precise manner and within a single plane, unlike what humans are capable of achieving while free-handing a pool cue or golf club.

Excellent illustration. That has made it so much easier to clarify what I've been arguing. So what do you know, that horse may not yet be dead after all. Yep, I think he's faking it. You just watch and see how many rebutting replies there are after this point.

themvols
10-25-2007, 08:22 PM
Just give me a stroke like Deuel's. PLEASE.

1Time
10-25-2007, 10:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote themvols:</font><hr> Just give me a stroke like Deuel's. PLEASE. <hr /></blockquote>

No problem... just be sure to not use a pause in your stroke.

Check out Corey Deuel's stoke on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_plsd-1TNNw) when getting shape on the 5-ball. I guarantee you - nobody's gonna pull that off with a pause in their stroke.

bradb
10-26-2007, 09:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote themvols:</font><hr> Just give me a stroke like Deuel's. PLEASE. <hr /></blockquote>

No problem... just be sure to not use a pause in your stroke.

Check out Corey Deuel's stoke on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_plsd-1TNNw) when getting shape on the 5-ball. I guarantee you - nobody's gonna pull that off with a pause in their stroke. <hr /></blockquote>

Good Gawd!....The horse has managed to rise up and with one final death throe, twitch its battered tail...

1time!... Look carefully at Corey's stroke up to the 4 ball shot, he uses a deffinate pause before striking. On the 4 ball shot itself he just speeded it up because it was all instinct. If you try that stroke without total control it would be a slash that would put the QB up in the balcony bouncing off the cheap seats. -brad

1Time
10-26-2007, 10:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>
1time!... Look carefully at Corey's stroke up to the 5 ball shot, he uses a deffinate pause before striking. On the 5 ball shot it'self he just speeded it up because it was all instinct. <hr /></blockquote>

I just watched that Corey Deuel run-out on YouTube another 3 times, which makes my total now no less than 10 times. And for most of those times I focused on the specifics of his stroke and in particular its rhythm, variance of speed, and whether or not there was a pause in any shot in that rack. His stroke and its characteristics are not at all unfamiliar to me, and are quite similar to my own. And while his stroke obviously slows down on a couple shots near the end of his back stroke, there is no pause. I use the same slow down technique occasionally, but it's done out of instinct, not deliberate, and without a pause. It's a modulation of the speed of the back stroke, used to help affect the desired resulting speed on the shot.

With specific regard to the shot on the 5 ball, if you look at the tip of the cue, it appears to stop for an instant, but does not pause. To better understand why this is not a pause, watch that shot while looking at his cue stick on the left side of his bridge hand. See all that up and down movement throughout the back stroke and forward stroke. There is no way possible for that to indicate a pause. While his cue's tip appears to stop for an instant, the butt of his cue is doing a loop and during this loop the direction of his cue's stroke changes from reverse to forward. It is during this continuous motion and change of direction that his cue's tip appears to stop for an instant. It is definitely not a pause. Next.

Jager85
10-26-2007, 12:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>
1time!... Look carefully at Corey's stroke up to the 5 ball shot, he uses a deffinate pause before striking. On the 5 ball shot it'self he just speeded it up because it was all instinct. <hr /></blockquote>

I just watched that Corey Deuel run-out on YouTube another 3 times, which makes my total now no less than 10 times. And for most of those times I focused on the specifics of his stroke and in particular its rhythm, variance of speed, and whether or not there was a pause in any shot in that rack. His stroke and its characteristics are not at all unfamiliar to me, and are quite similar to my own. And while his stroke obviously slows down on a couple shots near the end of his back stroke, there is no pause. I use the same slow down technique occasionally, but it's done out of instinct, not deliberate, and without a pause. It's a modulation of the speed of the back stroke, used to help affect the desired resulting speed on the shot.

With specific regard to the shot on the 5 ball, if you look at the tip of the cue, it appears to stop for an instant, but does not pause. To better understand why this is not a pause, watch that shot while looking at his cue stick on the left side of his bridge hand. See all that up and down movement throughout the back stroke and forward stroke. There is no way possible for that to indicate a pause. While his cue's tip appears to stop for an instant, the butt of his cue is doing a loop and during this loop the direction of his cue's stroke changes from reverse to forward. It is during this continuous motion and change of direction that his cue's tip appears to stop for an instant. It is definitely not a pause. Next. <hr /></blockquote>

Once again, everybody is different. If either of you had Cory's stroke do you think you would automatically be as good as him? Would you have the same speed control and shot making ability through that particular stroke? Would everybody?

NO. There is alot more to pool than a stroke first of all, and second of all what works for Cory won't necessarily work for you. I have seen some top locals with horrible stances and strokes running more racks than I could even dream of at this point in time. Find what works for you and quit arguing about what is "right" because neither is right or wrong.

1Time
10-26-2007, 12:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jager85:</font><hr> Once again, everybody is different. If either of you had Cory's stroke do you think you would automatically be as good as him? Would you have the same speed control and shot making ability through that particular stroke? Would everybody?

NO. There is alot more to pool than a stroke first of all, and second of all what works for Cory won't necessarily work for you. I have seen some top locals with horrible stances and strokes running more racks than I could even dream of at this point in time. Find what works for you and quit arguing about what is "right" because neither is right or wrong. <hr /></blockquote>

First, I don't disagree with any of that, but I never said I had Cory's stroke, just quit similar. And, I was referring to aspects of his stroke and not his game or abilities.

And second, your entire post is completely irrelevant to what's being discussed or at issue. Does Corey use a pause in his stroke or not? Next.

bradb
10-26-2007, 04:19 PM
Yes the other quote is not on subject, but the basic fundamentals of Coreys stroke is common (with minor differences from player to player) it is universal. Snooker, billiards... pool god knows what else. There are a few players with radical versions but they should not be copied, its peculiar only to them. I have Coreys stroke, so does any good pool player, I just can't shoot as good as he does.

We are stuck in descriptions here... Pull the cue back slowly... hold, pause, stop, whatever... then stroke straight through.

I now declare this horse to be legally dead.
It is no more. It is deceased.
It is not of this earth.
It has had the bisquit.
It has met its maker.
It has found lasting peace
It has crossed over.
This horse is a Dead HORSE!

1Time
10-26-2007, 05:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> Yes the other quote is not on subject, but the basic fundamentals of Coreys stroke is common (with minor differences from player to player) it is universal. Snooker, billiards... pool god knows what else. There are a few players with radical versions but they should not be copied, its peculiar only to them. I have Coreys stroke, so does any good pool player, I just can't shoot as good as he does. <hr /></blockquote>
Here you completely disregarded the focus or point of this entire thread, which has to do with a pause or lack of pause in one's stroke. This thread has nothing to do with whatever else players do or do not have in common with their strokes.

And so, if you can't support your previous claim that Corey's stroke has a pause in it, then just stand up and say so. Don't cower away with off topic generalizations.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>We are stuck in descriptions here... Pull the cue back slowly... hold, pause, stop, whatever... then stroke straight through. <hr /></blockquote>
No. You apparently are stuck with an inability to tell the difference between these subtleties in a stroke, while I have quite a keen grasp of what's being discussed. If you don't understand my descriptions or explanations, just say so and I will try to help you.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>I now declare this horse to be legally dead.
It is no more. It is deceased.
It is not of this earth.
It has had the bisquit.
It has met its maker.
It has found lasting peace
It has crossed over.
This horse is a Dead HORSE! <hr /></blockquote>
For failure to adequately demonstrate an acceptable level of understanding of the subject matter in this thread, your license to declare anything regarding this horse has been suspended until further notice.

Vapros
10-26-2007, 06:46 PM
Anything else we can help you with, Mr. Crab? /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

1Time
10-26-2007, 07:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DeadCrab:</font><hr>
The issue of backstroke pause came up in another thread. I was wondering what experienced players/instructors think about the very pronounced pause Niels Feijen has in his stroke.

Good thing for inexperienced players to imitate?

<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vapros:</font><hr> Anything else we can help you with, Mr. Crab? /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>

It is good to imitate a player's stroke (one with or without a pause) if that helps one's pool game. One can't tell if that will help or not without trying. And so a pause is a good thing to incorporate into one's game if it ultimately helps one's pool game. However, some will find the use of a pause helpful while others will find it too limiting or not helpful to one's game.

What became a point of contention in this thread is what constitutes a pause. I feel quite confident in having resolved the matter. Of course I welcome anyone's relevant discussion to the contrary or otherwise.

bradb
10-26-2007, 09:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>I now declare this horse to be legally dead.
It is no more. It is deceased.
It is not of this earth.
It has had the bisquit.
It has met its maker.
It has found lasting peace
It has crossed over.
This horse is a Dead HORSE! <hr /></blockquote>
For failure to adequately demonstrate an acceptable level of understanding of the subject matter in this thread, your license to declare anything regarding this horse has been suspended until further notice.
<hr /></blockquote>

Your're inability to see a simple truth... Its a pause!... but it has different lengths in time!... has led me to override your declaration in the name of sympathy for the dearly departed. I now reinstate the death certificate for this poor battered animal.
-Amen.

1Time
10-26-2007, 10:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> Your're inability to see a simple truth... Its a pause!... but it has different lengths in time!... has led me to override your declaration in the name of sympathy for the dearly departed. I now reinstate the death certificate for this poor battered animal.
-Amen. <hr /></blockquote>
Rejected.

It can't be a pause because the butt of the cue is moving. And, the length of time the cue's tip appears stopped is no longer than an instant. A pause clearly implies a noticeable period of time beyond an instant or noticeable stop. For example, you drive a car to a stop sign, stop, and then immediately drive forward. A pause at the stop sign would be if you waited at the stop sign for any length of time that was noticeable beyond a quick stop and go. The video of Corey clearly shows a quick stop and go of the cue's tip. And, the movement of the cue to the left of his bridge hand in the video indicates the butt of the cue remains in motion throughout the stroke. Neither of these observations indicates a pause, and both of them indicate there is no pause.

Therefore, your license to declare anything regarding this horse remains suspended until further notice.

av84fun
10-26-2007, 11:13 PM
bradb..."OK, lets look at that action (which in all respects we are really talking about the connecting rod). At the cam end the rod never changes velocity. At the other it must reach zero velocity then return. At what point along that rod is zero reached?... At the middle... 3/4 of the way up or at the very tip of the rod at the piston. In a way the rod is moving in two different directions at the same time, it depends on which end we examine. My head hurts, I must pause and collect my self. cool:"

LOL. I am going to try to copy an animation into this response. Don't know if it will work but I will write as though it will. You can see that the cam is an oblong part which is narrower on one side than the other. You see that it is connected to a shaft that rotates constantly therby causing the cam to rotate constantly. BUT some very smart guy figured out that a certain SHAPE of cam would allow it to rotate constantly while causing a part (the piston assembly in our discussion) to move A) up and down instead of in a circular or otherwise curved plane and B) to move OCCASIONALLY instead of constantly because of the SHAPE of the cam. A picture is worth a thousand words so I hope the annimation appears but if not, it is because the ENDS of the cam are ROUNDED that it can rotate constantly while NOT causing another part to rotate contstantly.

Think of it this way. Assume that the cam was a perfect circle and below it was the piston assembly. Clearly, the circle could spin all that long without causing ANY motion of the part below it BECAUSE the dead center BOTTOM of the circle is always at the exact same "height" and therefore, would NOT cause any adjacent part to move up or down.

But the CAM is OBLONG and its dead center bottom changes dramatically as the oblong part rotates. Because its dead center bottom changes height dramatically, so too would the part with which it comes into contact.

In fact, the definition of a cam is


"A cam is a projecting part of a rotating wheel or shaft that strikes a lever at one or more points on its circular path. The cam can be a simple tooth, as is used to deliver pulses of power to a steam hammer, for example, or an eccentric disc or other shape that produces a smooth reciprocating (back and forth) motion in the follower which is a lever making contact with the cam."

It is the ability of certain types of cams to convert circular motion to RECIPROCATING (back and forth or up and down) motion that makes the piston go up and down AND since it goes perfectly up and down IT MUST STOP BEFORE IN CAN CHANGE DIRECTION and it CAN stop because for a moment the bottom dead center of the cam is reached at which point the cam is not forcing either upward or downward motion to take place.

The animation does not seem to be appearing so here is a link to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cam

But let me HASTEN to agree with the views expressed by others that the whole discussion of MOMENTARY pauses misses the point of this thread and my main points regarding the benefits of a DEFINATE INTENTIONAL PAUSE.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
10-26-2007, 11:19 PM
Jager85..."Also, this argument is a waste of time, IMO, as everyone is different and there is no silver bullet. What works for me won't work for you."

I don't agree that this discussion is a waste of time and if it is, I wonder why you extended the time with your post but your last comment is clearly in error. How can you say that what works for you WON'T work for me? How would you know that. What works for you MIGHT NOT work for me and possibly that's what you meant. But the discussion about the benefits or the lack thereof of a definate pause at the end of the backswing is CLEARLY not a waste of time and since more than one world champion employs that technique while others don't makes it not only a useful subject of discussion but a pretty important one at that.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
10-26-2007, 11:21 PM
1time..."Sorry, nothing personal."

No problem. Possibly this post is not too problematic for ya.

Regards,
Jim

1Time
10-26-2007, 11:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> 1time..."Sorry, nothing personal."

No problem. Possibly this post is not too problematic for ya.

Regards,
Jim
<hr /></blockquote>

Not knowing much at all about cams, engine parts, or such, I didn't really attempt to follow your previous explanation. However, that Wiki animation looks easy enough to interpret. There is no pause at the bottom travel of the orange things because the cams are rounded and they are turning in a continuous motion. For there to be a pause at the bottom most travel of those orange things, the cam would have to stop at least momentarily when the cam is pointed down before resuming its circular motion.

av84fun
10-26-2007, 11:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote themvols:</font><hr> Just give me a stroke like Deuel's. PLEASE. <hr /></blockquote>


Check out Corey Deuel's stoke on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_plsd-1TNNw) when getting shape on the 5-ball. I guarantee you - nobody's gonna pull that off with a pause in their stroke. <hr /></blockquote>


THERE, I used the quote function...just to humor you and in hopes that you will read this and answer a few questions that I am about to ask you.

What on EARTH does the back stroke (assuming a full backstroke)...whether there is a pause or not, have to do with the FORWARD stroke which...I assume you would agree...is the only portion of the stroke that makes a whit of difference in cue ball behavior??? I've never seen a cue ball move by reason of the backstroke.

Another question. Do you think that the SPEED of the backstroke leads, in any way whatsoever, to the actual speed or the POTENTIAL speed of the forward stroke???

Finally, do you think that the lack of a pause at the back, in and of itself, creates a better opportunity to deliver the cue tip to the precise spot the player intends to deliver it to? Except for the nearly superhuman eye/hand/muscle coordination with which champions are blessed, I suggest that the superfast back stroke and forward stroke Cory used on that miraculous draw shot in which he delivered the cue tip to the precisely PERFECT tiny point of contact on the cue ball, could not possibly be executed by anyone but a champion player (except, literally by accident) and not very consistently even by world champions.

If Cory monitors this forum, I would be VERY interested if he would agree with me that he could not duplicate that exact shot more than 3 times out of 5...IF THAT...which is why he got such a smile on his face when he pulled it off...after, by the way, lucking the 3 ball kick shot in.

I ask these questions because I think that there is ZERO credible argument suggesting that cue ball behavior is influenced by ANYTHING other that A)cue tip speed at the moment of impact and B) the location of cue tip impact on the cue ball and that...except for championship players such a rapid forward and back stroke would do nothing but lead to SIGNIFICANT inconsistency in the outcome of any given shot.

If you elect to respond, I would appreciate your including the reasons WHY you answer as you do.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
10-26-2007, 11:49 PM
bradb..."1time!... Look carefully at Corey's stroke up to the 4 ball shot, he uses a deffinate pause before striking. On the 4 ball shot itself he just speeded it up because it was all instinct. If you try that stroke without total control it would be a slash that would put the QB up in the balcony bouncing off the cheap seats. -brad"

Roger that Brad and also note the EXTENDED pause he often uses before initiating the backstroke which is the subject of a splinter thread I mentioned in this thread. A LOT of players, including SVB, the current U.S. Open champion are using that tip-to-ball pause more and more these days and for MANY of the same reasons that the back stroke pause should be SERIOUSLY considered by any player wishing to improve his/her game.

To say that ANY technique used by Allison Fisher, who has won more WPBA events than all her competitors COMBINED, is a waste of time as at least one poster has written suggests an unfortunate resistence to learning and improvement.
Regards,
Jim

1Time
10-26-2007, 11:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>
If you elect to respond, I would appreciate your including the reasons WHY you answer as you do. <hr /></blockquote>

Hey, no problem. Be glad to, but I was just getting ready to kick back with a movie and then probably call it a night. But I will be sure to give you something to think over some time tomorrow.

av84fun
10-26-2007, 11:59 PM
<hr /></blockquote>
Rejected.

It can't be a pause because the butt of the cue is moving. quote]

You are absolutely WRONG. Bring the tip all the way back into your bridge hand...LEAVE IT THERE...now PUMP the butt of the cue up and down like you were pumping the handle of a tire jack.

That pumping motion does virtually NOTHING to cause either forward or backward movement of the CUE TIP and therefore THE CUE TIP IS PAUSED IN RELATION TO ITS DISTANCE FROM THE CUE BALL...PERIOD...END OF STORY and if you would get down of your often condescending high horse for a moment...just a pause...then you might be able to use the education you imply others lack in the process of UNDERSTANDING THE OBVIOUS.

Respectfully,

Jim

av84fun
10-27-2007, 12:07 AM
1time..."Not knowing much at all about cams, engine parts, or such, I didn't really attempt to follow your previous explanation."

That is perfectly obvious because, yet again, you fail to discern the obvious. If you aren't willing to "follow" someone's comments, you should probably avoid the embarrassment of nonsensical replies such as yours to my post.

And you don't understand cams and such. Gee whiz, you seem to believe that you are a master at the science of motion dynamics. You would HAVE to be...wouldn't you...to argue so condescendingly that the no pause stroke is obviously superior to one that contains a pause???

Now, you may insert shovel into ground so as to deepen the hole you are digging for yourself. You may pause at the top of the shovel stroke or not. Your choice.
(-:

Fran Crimi
10-27-2007, 08:32 AM
It seems to me that everyone is going in circles here (pardon the pun). The question of the day is, "What constitutes a PAUSE in pool?"

Regardless of the world of physics, I think the answer can be a simple one if we all would agree, that in pool, a pause is a length of time at the end of a backswing that cancels out any effects of the speed of the backswing into the forward motion of the stroke.

I could be wrong but I believe the word I'm looking for here is 'momentum'. If there is no momentum effect in the forward stroke resulting from the back stroke, then a pause has taken place.

Does that sound acceptable to everyone?

Fran

1Time
10-27-2007, 09:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>
THERE, I used the quote function...just to humor you and in hopes that you will read this and answer a few questions that I am about to ask you.
<hr /></blockquote>

Okay, now you have my attention. Thanks for humoring me.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>
What on EARTH does the back stroke (assuming a full backstroke)...whether there is a pause or not, have to do with the FORWARD stroke which...I assume you would agree...is the only portion of the stroke that makes a whit of difference in cue ball behavior??? I've never seen a cue ball move by reason of the backstroke. <hr /></blockquote>
This is an interesting and relevant subject that I would also like to discuss, but to simplify the communications for the benefit of the readers and participants, I will hold off on doing so until after we have resolved the definition of a pause, if possible. If determined not possible, then I would like to proceed with this.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>Another question. Do you think that the SPEED of the backstroke leads, in any way whatsoever, to the actual speed or the POTENTIAL speed of the forward stroke??? <hr /></blockquote>
Same response as my previous. Again, interesting.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>Finally, do you think that the lack of a pause at the back, in and of itself, creates a better opportunity to deliver the cue tip to the precise spot the player intends to deliver it to? Except for the nearly superhuman eye/hand/muscle coordination with which champions are blessed, I suggest that the superfast back stroke and forward stroke Cory used on that miraculous draw shot in which he delivered the cue tip to the precisely PERFECT tiny point of contact on the cue ball, could not possibly be executed by anyone but a champion player (except, literally by accident) and not very consistently even by world champions.

If Cory monitors this forum, I would be VERY interested if he would agree with me that he could not duplicate that exact shot more than 3 times out of 5...IF THAT...which is why he got such a smile on his face when he pulled it off...after, by the way, lucking the 3 ball kick shot in. <hr /></blockquote>
Same response as my previous. Also interesting. Looking forward to discussing these as well.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>I ask these questions because I think that there is ZERO credible argument suggesting that cue ball behavior is influenced by ANYTHING other that A)cue tip speed at the moment of impact and B) the location of cue tip impact on the cue ball and that...except for championship players such a rapid forward and back stroke would do nothing but lead to SIGNIFICANT inconsistency in the outcome of any given shot. <hr /></blockquote>
And this as well brings up a few interesting points that I would enjoy discussing.

1Time
10-27-2007, 09:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>
Roger that Brad and also note the EXTENDED pause he often uses before initiating the backstroke which is the subject of a splinter thread I mentioned in this thread. A LOT of players, including SVB, the current U.S. Open champion are using that tip-to-ball pause more and more these days and for MANY of the same reasons that the back stroke pause should be SERIOUSLY considered by any player wishing to improve his/her game. <hr /></blockquote>
I consider it more beneficial to discuss the other pause related topics before discussing a pause used before the back stroke begins.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> To say that ANY technique used by Allison Fisher, who has won more WPBA events than all her competitors COMBINED, is a waste of time as at least one poster has written suggests an unfortunate resistence to learning and improvement.<hr /></blockquote>
I agree.

Bob_Jewett
10-27-2007, 09:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> ...Does that sound acceptable to everyone?

Fran <hr /></blockquote>
Not to me, if you involve the word "momentum." Momentum is technically defined as the mass of an object times the velocity of the object. (If a 160-gram ball is moving at 10 meters per second, it's momentum is 1.6 "kilogram meters per second.") By this technical definition, there is no way that "momentum" carries over. For a given object, velocity and momentum vary together. Velocity is visible and momentum is not. You have to know the mass of the object to reveal its momentum.

I think that you approached the real nature of a pause when you talked about a length of time of being motionless. I think a more useful and correct definition of a pause, and also simpler, is that the arm/stick should be motionless for longer than the instant it takes to reverse motion.

Fran Crimi
10-27-2007, 09:54 AM
For what it's worth, here's my comment on the fantastic shot by Duel on the 4 ball in the video. First, it was definitely fantastic, however, it's easier to use backspin on a new cloth because there is less friction between the cb and the new cloth, so it holds it's spin longer on the way to the object ball. You can draw the length of the table rather easily. My guess is that it's about 4 times easier to draw the ball on a new cloth as opposed to an old cloth.

That's not to take anything away from the shot. He still had to be deadly accurate in his aim at that speed. Very impressive.

As for whether or not his cue was in continuous motion, I think from the vantage point of the video, it's impossible to tell. It appears as if his arm did come to a brief stop at the end of his backstroke, however, there are ways of manipulating your back hand to keep the cue in continuous motion if you wanted to. I have had students who do that unknowingly which is why I enccourage them to shoot pool with their arm and not their hand until they understand the little nuances of back hand manipulation.

Fran

1Time
10-27-2007, 10:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> I think a more useful and correct definition of a pause, and also simpler, is that the arm/stick should be motionless for longer than the instant it takes to reverse motion.<hr /></blockquote>
I agree. Thanks Bob_Jewett

Of course that definition assumes that motionless means as is ordinary for a human, but the presence or absence of that stipulation shouldn't cause any problems.

A good working definition that everyone can agree on should help to clear some things up here and move the discussion forward.

Fran Crimi
10-27-2007, 10:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> ...Does that sound acceptable to everyone?

Fran <hr /></blockquote>
Not to me, if you involve the word "momentum." Momentum is technically defined as the mass of an object times the velocity of the object. (If a 160-gram ball is moving at 10 meters per second, it's momentum is 1.6 "kilogram meters per second.") By this technical definition, there is no way that "momentum" carries over. For a given object, velocity and momentum vary together. Velocity is visible and momentum is not. You have to know the mass of the object to reveal its momentum.

I think that you approached the real nature of a pause when you talked about a length of time of being motionless. I think a more useful and correct definition of a pause, and also simpler, is that the arm/stick should be motionless for longer than the instant it takes to reverse motion. <hr /></blockquote>

Okay, fair enough. Eliminate 'momentum.' When does the motion of the backstroke affect the motion of the forward stroke and how does one stop that effect?

Think beyond just physics. Think about things like eye movement, and unwanted body movement due to perhaps a jerking of the backstroke. All of these things affect the forward motion of the stroke because the player may have not yet had enough time to focus their eyes because they brought their cue back so quickly, or they may have moved their bridge hand ever so slightly due to the fast backstroke and not had enough time to reset.

Then there is the player who brings the cue back smoothly and evenly, with enough time to refocus their eyes and without any unwanted bridge hand movement. That player may not need to 'pause' the cue at the end of their backstroke as long as the other player. Yet, did they still pause?

And what about the control addict, who brings the cue back slowly and evenly with perfect eye coordination, yet feels they must pause just to be sure that there is no unwanted movement(even though it's obvious there isn't). Do we call that an unnecessary or even an overindulgent pause?

I believe that the exact point at which the backstroke no longer has any affect on the forward stroke inclusive of all possible reasons, is called a pause. There are longer pauses and there are shorter pauses. Depending on the player, some are too short and others are unnecessarily long.

Fran

av84fun
10-27-2007, 11:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> It seems to me that everyone is going in circles here (pardon the pun). The question of the day is, "What constitutes a PAUSE in pool?"

Regardless of the world of physics, I think the answer can be a simple one if we all would agree, that in pool, a pause is a length of time at the end of a backswing that cancels out any effects of the speed of the backswing into the forward motion of the stroke.

I could be wrong but I believe the word I'm looking for here is 'momentum'. If there is no momentum effect in the forward stroke resulting from the back stroke, then a pause has taken place.

Does that sound acceptable to everyone?

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Almost! Your definition, as written, still leaves open the argument that there is such pause that cancels out the effects of the backswing due to the physics of opposite motion, in spite of the fact that the player might not INTEND for there to be such a pause.

So, I would suggest the following definition of a pause:

An intentional and obvious stopping of the backstroke lasting for at least one second.

Regards,
Jim

bradb
10-27-2007, 11:23 AM
A note to all that have tried to make some sense of the topics in this thread:

To the technical people: AV84fun, Jim, Dave and others, the cam shaft thing was really a red herring on my part, I guess I am fascinated by mechanical engineering (I started as a tech illustrater on the Huey helicopters in Forth Worth then I worked on the DC 10) but wound up in art instead.
The connecting rod is nothing more than a device to transfer revolving energy to back and forth energy. (My laymans terms.) So when you guys give me the true deffinition of whats going on in what we often think is a simple device, I find it very interesting.

But the human body is more than a mechanical device it employs other factors that has been pointed out to us by Fran and Bob and other experienced players who know this game in intricate detail. Often terminologys gets in the way. Players at their level are used to showing amatuers how to stroke... not talking it.

To 1time and other amatuer players like my self, study the game by doing... watch yes, but sometimes what we see is decieving. My friend Garrad who is the best amatuer player in the lower valley, showed me Corey's shot and he managed to do it after several attempts. its not really that difficult for pro or near pro players. its all in proper cueing. Its amazing that when you start to master the proper stroke how much easier what we think is difficult does'nt seem so remote. There's an "aha" factor!

Play this game with the attitude to learn, and play with the best if you can. We can never know enough.

-brad

1Time
10-27-2007, 12:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>
Rejected.

It can't be a pause because the butt of the cue is moving. quote]

You are absolutely WRONG. Bring the tip all the way back into your bridge hand...LEAVE IT THERE...now PUMP the butt of the cue up and down like you were pumping the handle of a tire jack.[/

That pumping motion does virtually NOTHING to cause either forward or backward movement of the CUE TIP and therefore THE CUE TIP IS PAUSED IN RELATION TO ITS DISTANCE FROM THE CUE BALL...PERIOD...END OF STORY and if you would get down of your often condescending high horse for a moment...just a pause...then you might be able to use the education you imply others lack in the process of UNDERSTANDING THE OBVIOUS.

Respectfully,

Jim <hr /></blockquote>

Not your best effort here to use this site's quote function, but thanks for trying. In case you're interested in "learning" how to do this better, I suggest looking through a thread I recently posted called Word Processing 101 (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=261815&amp;page=0&amp;v iew=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1&amp;vc=1&amp;PHPSESSID=).

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> You are absolutely WRONG. <hr /></blockquote>

I appreciate your enthusiasm. But let's just see who's wrong. Shall we?

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>Bring the tip all the way back into your bridge hand...LEAVE IT THERE...now PUMP the butt of the cue up and down like you were pumping the handle of a tire jack. <hr /></blockquote>

Neither action you describe here happens with any of Corey Deuel's stroke in that YouTube clip. And, I hope to make this clear to you and everyone as this discussion progresses. Perhaps a re-reading of a few of my more recent posts will help.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>That pumping motion does virtually NOTHING to cause either forward or backward movement of the CUE TIP and therefore THE CUE TIP IS PAUSED IN RELATION TO ITS DISTANCE FROM THE CUE BALL...PERIOD...END OF STORY <hr /></blockquote>

Like I just said, for example in Corey's 5 ball shot, the butt does not pump up and down (it loops), and the cue's tip does not pause (it's moving and only appears to stop for an instant).

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> and if you would get down of your often condescending high horse for a moment...just a pause...then you might be able to use the education you imply others lack in the process of UNDERSTANDING THE OBVIOUS.<hr /></blockquote>

Oh my, I think you really tried to put me in my place here. LOL

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> 1time..."Not knowing much at all about cams, engine parts, or such, I didn't really attempt to follow your previous explanation." <hr /></blockquote>

Did not even attempt to use the quote function here. I'm telling you it's not that hard to do. You click on the "Quote" icon, and the following is what shows in your post.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>Not knowing much at all about cams, engine parts, or such, I didn't really attempt to follow your previous explanation. However, that Wiki animation looks easy enough to interpret. There is no pause at the bottom travel of the orange things because the cams are rounded and they are turning in a continuous motion. For there to be a pause at the bottom most travel of those orange things, the cam would have to stop at least momentarily when the cam is pointed down before resuming its circular motion. <hr /></blockquote>

Now notice the differences between your failed attempt to quote me and my complete quote as shown above. And in particular, take note of the interpretation I gave for the Wiki animation that you previously provided a link for. Notice my creation of the easily understandable and non-technical phrase "orange things". And more to the point, did you happen to notice my flawless interpretation of this animation as it pertains to the existence or not of a pause? Quite a feat, wouldn't you say, for someone claiming to not know much at all about cams, engine parts, or such.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> That is perfectly obvious because, yet again, you fail to discern the obvious. If you aren't willing to "follow" someone's comments, you should probably avoid the embarrassment of nonsensical replies such as yours to my post. <hr /></blockquote>

Like I already said, if you better organize your posts, that will make it easier for me to cut to the chase and show you where you are wrong. And that's exactly what I am in the process of doing with that link you provided to that Wiki animation. If you adequately address my interpretation of that Wiki animation, which is quoted above, then I will consider taking a closer look at whatever else you had to say in that post I chose not to follow.

My point here is, it's a waste of my time to wade through much of what you post if we can't first come to an agreement on a fundamental point. And so, if instead you choose not to address my interpretation of that Wiki animation, then a continuation of our discussion may be in jeopardy.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> And you don't understand cams and such. Gee whiz, you seem to believe that you are a master at the science of motion dynamics. You would HAVE to be...wouldn't you...to argue so condescendingly that the no pause stroke is obviously superior to one that contains a pause??? <hr /></blockquote>

One does not have to be a master of something to be correct, and it's all too clear that you are neither. And, just because I did not have an understanding of those car part terms, does not mean I had not seen or studied those mechanical figures and their motion before. And, I am quite certain my interpretation of that Wiki animation is dead on correct. Hopefully it can form the basis for understanding and defining what a pause is in a pool stroke.

And regarding the superiority of a "no pause stroke", just because a "stroke with a pause" can't pull that shot off, doesn't mean everyone will find the "no pause stroke" superior to a "stroke with a pause", and vice versa.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> Now, you may insert shovel into ground so as to deepen the hole you are digging for yourself. You may pause at the top of the shovel stroke or not. Your choice. (-: <hr /></blockquote>

First it was said we were beating a dead horse. Then it came back to life. And then it was pronounced dead again. And of course it still lives, just like I said it would in the first place. And now there's supposed to be a shovel for me to dig a hole with. LOL

av84fun
10-27-2007, 09:18 PM
Quote 1 time
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________

Neither action you describe here happens with any of Corey Deuel's stroke in that YouTube clip. And, I hope to make this clear to you and everyone as this discussion progresses. Perhaps a re-reading of a few of my more recent posts will help.
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________

C'mon. That's a high school debate team ploy. The motion I described absolutely destroyed your thesis so, in desperation, you respond that Cory didn't use the motion I described. BUT I NEVER SAID HE DID. My statement was and I quote..."Bring the tip all the way back into your bridge hand...LEAVE IT THERE...now PUMP the butt of the cue up and down like you were pumping the handle of a tire jack."

Do you see Cory's name in that quotation? Your problem is that the statement, as presented, is A) correct and B) utterly destructive to your position which is why you try to wiggle out but your reply is not even a decent try.

Quote 1 time
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________
Like I just said, for example in Corey's 5 ball shot, the butt does not pump up and down (it loops), and the cue's tip does not pause (it's moving and only appears to stop for an instant).
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Well Fran thinks it does so she too must have forgotten that you are in possession of the RECEIVED TRUTH! ROFLMAO! (-:

quote 1 time
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________
Oh my, I think you really tried to put me in my place here. LOL

__________________________________________________ _______________________________________

Tried...and did.

"Did not even attempt to use the quote function here."

Didn't want to. Don't have to and since you are the one who ridiculed other posters for not being sufficiently educated, you should be able to discern literary quotations via the appearance of quotation marks which look like this " ".

"And regarding the superiority of a "no pause stroke", just because a "stroke with a pause" can't pull that shot off, doesn't mean everyone will find the "no pause stroke" superior to a "stroke with a pause", and vice versa."

EXCELLENT job of illuminating the obvious. Has anyone in this thread suggested that the "stroke with a pause" IS IN FACT superior to any other form of stroke? What I read here is a discussion of that topic and the offering of views and opinions. But yet again, in a nearly desperate attempt to be "proven right" you pose an obvious thesis that, oh by the way, no one has argued against. So, sir, you have achieved nothing but a pyrrhic victory...but hey, you did your best.

"And now there's supposed to be a shovel for me to dig a hole with."

I don't know if there is "supposed to be" but I do know that there SHOULD be. LOL yourself. (-:


Finally, I realize that you insist on the non-use of quotation marks but ya know, if they are good enough for every Pulitzer Prize winning author in history they're good enough for me. Just consult any grade school English grammar text and read up on it. You can do it. I KNOW you can.

In the meantime, my strategy will be to NEVER use the quote function again in a post directed to you...for two reasons.

1. To irritate you.
2. In the fervent hope that you will actually refuse to post comments directed to me which is the best way I can think of to get you to SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE! LOL

1Time
10-27-2007, 11:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> Quote 1 time
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________

Neither action you describe here happens with any of Corey Deuel's stroke in that YouTube clip. And, I hope to make this clear to you and everyone as this discussion progresses. Perhaps a re-reading of a few of my more recent posts will help.
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________

C'mon. That's a high school debate team ploy. The motion I described absolutely destroyed your thesis so, in desperation, you respond that Cory didn't use the motion I described. BUT I NEVER SAID HE DID. My statement was and I quote..."Bring the tip all the way back into your bridge hand...LEAVE IT THERE...now PUMP the butt of the cue up and down like you were pumping the handle of a tire jack."

Do you see Cory's name in that quotation? Your problem is that the statement, as presented, is A) correct and B) utterly destructive to your position which is why you try to wiggle out but your reply is not even a decent try.

Quote 1 time
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________
Like I just said, for example in Corey's 5 ball shot, the butt does not pump up and down (it loops), and the cue's tip does not pause (it's moving and only appears to stop for an instant).
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

Well Fran thinks it does so she too must have forgotten that you are in possession of the RECEIVED TRUTH! ROFLMAO! (-:

quote 1 time
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________
Oh my, I think you really tried to put me in my place here. LOL

__________________________________________________ _______________________________________

Tried...and did.

"Did not even attempt to use the quote function here."

Didn't want to. Don't have to and since you are the one who ridiculed other posters for not being sufficiently educated, you should be able to discern literary quotations via the appearance of quotation marks which look like this " ".

"And regarding the superiority of a "no pause stroke", just because a "stroke with a pause" can't pull that shot off, doesn't mean everyone will find the "no pause stroke" superior to a "stroke with a pause", and vice versa."

EXCELLENT job of illuminating the obvious. Has anyone in this thread suggested that the "stroke with a pause" IS IN FACT superior to any other form of stroke? What I read here is a discussion of that topic and the offering of views and opinions. But yet again, in a nearly desperate attempt to be "proven right" you pose an obvious thesis that, oh by the way, no one has argued against. So, sir, you have achieved nothing but a pyrrhic victory...but hey, you did your best.

"And now there's supposed to be a shovel for me to dig a hole with."

I don't know if there is "supposed to be" but I do know that there SHOULD be. LOL yourself. (-:


Finally, I realize that you insist on the non-use of quotation marks but ya know, if they are good enough for every Pulitzer Prize winning author in history they're good enough for me. Just consult any grade school English grammar text and read up on it. You can do it. I KNOW you can.

In the meantime, my strategy will be to NEVER use the quote function again in a post directed to you...for two reasons.

1. To irritate you.
2. In the fervent hope that you will actually refuse to post comments directed to me which is the best way I can think of to get you to SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE! LOL
<hr /></blockquote>

Like I said earlier...

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>My point here is, it's a waste of my time to wade through much of what you post if we can't first come to an agreement on a fundamental point. And so, if instead you choose not to address my interpretation of that Wiki animation, then a continuation of our discussion may be in jeopardy. <hr /></blockquote>

And so, since you did not post anything of value regarding that Wiki animation or otherwise attempt to facilitate an agreement on any fundamental point, it is now obvious you do not intend to do so. Thus, I will continue the discussion with others who post, exclude you, and continue to show that I am right and you and others who disagree with me are wrong. It was fun chatting with you though, and thanks for the laughs.

av84fun
10-28-2007, 10:51 AM
1 time..."Thus, I will continue the discussion with others who post, exclude you, and continue to show that I am right and you and others who disagree with me are wrong. It was fun chatting with you though, and thanks for the laughs."

As is the habit of fools...undaunted, he argued on.

And by the way, your use of the quote function copied TWENTY NINE lines of my text...none of which you responded to with particularity...and took up about 3 full screens of space. Your text was about 5 lines long. AND YOU THINK THAT IS EFFICIENT???

BUBBYE (-:

Fran Crimi
10-28-2007, 11:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> A note to all that have tried to make some sense of the topics in this thread:

To the technical people: AV84fun, Jim, Dave and others, the cam shaft thing was really a red herring on my part, I guess I am fascinated by mechanical engineering (I started as a tech illustrater on the Huey helicopters in Forth Worth then I worked on the DC 10) but wound up in art instead.
The connecting rod is nothing more than a device to transfer revolving energy to back and forth energy. (My laymans terms.) So when you guys give me the true deffinition of whats going on in what we often think is a simple device, I find it very interesting.

But the human body is more than a mechanical device it employs other factors that has been pointed out to us by Fran and Bob and other experienced players who know this game in intricate detail. Often terminologys gets in the way. Players at their level are used to showing amatuers how to stroke... not talking it.

To 1time and other amatuer players like my self, study the game by doing... watch yes, but sometimes what we see is decieving. My friend Garrad who is the best amatuer player in the lower valley, showed me Corey's shot and he managed to do it after several attempts. its not really that difficult for pro or near pro players. its all in proper cueing. Its amazing that when you start to master the proper stroke how much easier what we think is difficult does'nt seem so remote. There's an "aha" factor!

Play this game with the attitude to learn, and play with the best if you can. We can never know enough.

-brad



<hr /></blockquote>


Thanks for the mention, Brad. I imagine nothing ground-breaking will be determined here in this particular thread, but it's interesting stuff, nonetheless. As for Corey's shot, don't forget to add in the pressure factor. Performing that shot as well as he did under that kind of pressure is pretty darn great.

Fran

bradb
10-28-2007, 12:30 PM
<hr /></blockquote>


Thanks for the mention, Brad. I imagine nothing ground-breaking will be determined here in this particular thread, but it's interesting stuff, nonetheless. As for Corey's shot, don't forget to add in the pressure factor. Performing that shot as well as he did under that kind of pressure is pretty darn great.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

You are so right on that Fran... some times i forget how to even execute a simple stun back when the pressure is on. Your arms tighten up, and your bridge feels like its a mass of jelly. You can back off a dozen times but every time you come back the shot is still there.

Thats the thing about this game, its not you against your opponent, or even the table... its you against yourself!... and thats your biggest competition of all.

1Time
10-28-2007, 03:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> But for some number of milliseconds, the oblong cam is oriented dead straight up and down and when it is, the attached piston STOPS rising and if fact stops altogether until the cam passes through top dead center at which point the pistion STARTS descending...but not without a TINY but scientifically measurable pause. <hr /></blockquote>

A cam turning continuously is more relevant to Corey Deuel's pool strokes in this YouTube clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_plsd-1TNNw). Take a look at this Wiki animation of cams turning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cam). Of course this animation was meant to show continuously rotating cams. And so consider this Wiki animation as though it were turning continuously. And now watch the bottom of the orange things in the Wiki animation. Do they stop at the bottom? No, this is not possible if the cam is rotating continuously. Do the cams appear to stop as they change directions from down to up? Perhaps, and one's perception of this depends highly on how fast the cams are rotating. Would the cams appear to stop or even pause if they were turning much slower? Probably. However, if the cams are turning continuously and regardless of the speed they turn, there is no stop and there is no pause.

Now watch Corey's shot on the 5 ball in that YouTube clip. It's about 7/8 th's the way through the clip. Focus on the cue's tip and notice how it "appears" to stop for an instant as his stroke changes direction from reverse to forward. What appears here is the same as what appears with the orange things at the bottom of their stroke in the Wiki animation described above.

Now watch that 5 ball shot again and focus on what Corey's cue stick is doing at the left edge of the video, left of Corey's bridge hand. Take notice of all that up and down movement of his cue throughout the stroke and especially during the change of the cue stick's direction from reverse to forward. That movement indicates a fairly vertical loop that the butt of his cue stick is making before, during, and after the cue stick changes directions from reverse to forward.

That looping action of Corey's stroke is represented in the Wiki animation by the rounded end of the cam, the longer part. And, at the point that a cam in that animation is pointing precisely down, the corresponding orange thing is pushed down the farthest. In Corey's 5 ball shot, there is a point where his cue's tip is furthest from the cue ball, and this point corresponds to a point in the loop of the butt of his cue stick that is also furthest from the cue ball.

Corey's cue's tip in that shot does not stop since the butt of his cue is doing a fairly vertical looping motion. During the portion of this loop that is closest to where the cue stick's change in direction takes place, it can appear as though the tip is stationary and the butt of the cue is simply moving in an arc that results from it pivoting around the cue tip's stationary position. However, this is not what's happening at all. It's just like the orange things in the Wiki animation; they don't stop between their downward and upward travel. And the tip of Corey's cue does not stop either.

So, does this mean one cannot draw the cue back, hold the tip still, pivot the butt of the cue up or down in a corresponding arc and then stroke forward? No, but I doubt anyone would find doing so more beneficial than a continuous stroke or a stroke with a pause where the arm and cue stick are held motionless for longer than the instant it takes to reverse the cue stick's direction.

Bob_Jewett offered the following definition of a pause as it pertains to a pool stroke.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>I think a more useful and correct definition of a pause, and also simpler, is that the arm/stick should be motionless for longer than the instant it takes to reverse motion. <hr /></blockquote>

Of course motionless is meant here to mean as is humanly practical. And I find this definition to be adequate and useful.

However, does everyone know the difference between "the instant it takes to reverse motion" and a "pause"? I will put it this way. If one demonstrated two strokes, one with no more than the instant it takes to reverse motion, and one where the arm and cue stick are held motionless for more than the instant it takes to reverse the cue stick's motion, and then asked a group of players to identify which stroke had a pause in it, practically all but the drunk and stupid would correctly identify the one with the pause and the one without.

Yet, there have been a few participating in this thread who have claimed a pause exists in every stroke and regardless of the length of time it takes for the direction of the cue stick to change. And to them I rhetorically ask, since when does a continuous motion indicate a pause? Or is it that you cannot read and understand the definition of the word, pause?

bradb
10-28-2007, 05:55 PM
Good gawd.....



1time, what are you smoking?...

You would'nt be any relation to a certain character by the name of Fast Larry would you?

Whenever Larry gets off his meds he tends to write long tedious, non sensical threads, but!... he does add some interesting and very clever poetry to his meandering which contributes to the over all entertainment value of diving into his blather and pulling out a gem of mot for a reward.

Now if you should gather up your lexicon and spew forth a tantalizing tidbit of literary treasure, I promise I will don my wading boots and wander into the swamp of swirling diatribe you present here and at least find something to make the effort worth while. I might even comment back!

-brad

1Time
10-28-2007, 07:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>

1time, what are you smoking?...

You would'nt be any relation to a certain character by the name of Fast Larry would you?

Whenever Larry gets off his meds he tends to write long tedious, non sensical threads, but!... he does add some interesting poetry to his meandering which contributes to the over all entertainment value of diving into his blather and pulling out a gem of mot for a reward.

Now if you should gather up your lexicon and spew forth a tantalizing tidbit of literary treasure, I promise I will don my wading boots and wander into the swamp of swirling diatribe you present here and at least find something to make the effort worth while. I might even comment back!

-brad <hr /></blockquote>

No, there's nothing at all wrong with what I last posted, and most will understand it easy enough. It will live on to show that I am right and you and a few others were wrong.

And, since it is now evident that your are content to follow in the footsteps of av84fun, I will continue the discussion with others who post, exclude you, and continue to show that I am right and you and others who disagree with me are wrong.

Scott Lee
10-28-2007, 10:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> I am right and you and others who disagree with me are wrong. <hr /></blockquote>

There is no right and wrong (which is why you cannot be right, nor I wrong)...there's only average, good, or better. Any kind of swing at the CB can be used somewhat successfully to pocket the OB's and move the CB around the table. The way we teach, enables a player to make a serious commitment to a more practical and repeatable setup and delivery process. We don't say other methods don't work...we just say they don't work as efficiently as ours (SPF works for more players than other leading methods).

In the end, you're still welcome to your opinion, as am I to mine. Your recent posts now have begun to openly offend other posters...but you don't want to hear about it. Best to just let sleeping dogs lie. The truth always surfaces in the end anyway... Fact: for the purposes of effective communication with the student, there IS a pause in the backswing of all pendulum strokes. It can be demonstrated and measured...therefore it is a more effective teaching method, than trial and error (or some other system).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com (http://www.poolknowledge.com)

bradb
10-28-2007, 11:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> I am right and you and others who disagree with me are wrong. <hr /></blockquote>

At last a short, meaningful (although rather immature) statement from your camp. I don't care who's right or wrong, I may even agree with much of what you say, I just want accurate dialogue that pertains to pool. Thats why I chat on this forum. We all know the pool lingo, know one wants to belabour the nuances of terminology when in effect we are all talking about the same thing.

Now stay away from the greenish yellow leaves, they come from Canada and they are mixed with who knows what. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

1Time
10-29-2007, 02:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>
There is no right and wrong (which is why you cannot be right, nor I wrong)...there's only average, good, or better.<hr /></blockquote>
Wrong.

Whether there is right and wrong depends on what we are talking about. If it's what kind of a day each of us had today (average, good, or better), then yes, there is no right and wrong. However, if for example it's a math problem and one of us argues 1+1=2 and the other 1+1=3, then there definitely is a right and wrong.

If you do not agree with anything specific to what I have recently posted, then just say so and why, and I will consider it. And, then I will consider whether I was wrong or you were, and reply.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>Any kind of swing at the CB can be used somewhat successfully to pocket the OB's and move the CB around the table. <hr /></blockquote>
And I never suggested any different. The issue at hand is not about what kind of swing can or cannot do X, Y, or Z on a table. It's simply about the definition of a pause and whether and when one exists in a pool stroke.

I do, however, consider it impossible for anyone using a pause in their stroke, as defined by Bob_Jewett, to execute the shot Corey Deuel made to get shape on the 5 ball in that YouTube clip. However, I consider that a very unimportant matter. Various strokes have various strengths and weaknesses for various players. It's whatever stroke works best for one's game that matters.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>The way we teach, enables a player to make a serious commitment to a more practical and repeatable setup and delivery process. We don't say other methods don't work...we just say they don't work as efficiently as ours (SPF works for more players than other leading methods).<hr /></blockquote>
Again, the issue at hand is the definition of a pause as it relates to a pool stroke and whether and when one exists in a pool stroke. It is not about how your teaching method compares to others, but that is an interesting topic I would like to discuss it if you start a separate thread.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>In the end, you're still welcome to your opinion, as am I to mine.<hr /></blockquote>
And neither of us suggested any different. And, I would be interested in reading your opinion as to what you disagree with and why.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>Your recent posts now have begun to openly offend other posters...but you don't want to hear about it. Best to just let sleeping dogs lie. The truth always surfaces in the end anyway...<hr /></blockquote>
My sincere apologies to all who took offense to my stated opinions.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>Fact: for the purposes of effective communication with the student, there IS a pause in the backswing of all pendulum strokes. It can be demonstrated and measured...therefore it is a more effective teaching method, than trial and error (or some other system).<hr /></blockquote>
The issue at hand is not what you tell your students. You can can tell them it's a flying banana for all it matters to me.

However, there is no pause in a pendulum; the instant a pendulum stops to reverse direction cannot be measured as a unit of time; and there is no pause in a typical, continuous, or traditional pool stroke.

dr_dave gave a good explanation earlier and in doing so corrected at least one of my previous claims in this thread, and so I quote him here.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>Strictly speaking, if the cue stops only for an "instant," there is no "pause." An "instant" does not involve any passage of time. A "pause" does imply a "stop" (zero speed) for a distinct amount of time. For example, when a free-swinging pendulum changes direction at is highest point, it does "stop" for an "instant," but it does not "pause." The speed gradually and smoothly changes from negative (in the backward direction) to positive (in the forward direction), through zero. The speed does not stay at zero for any amount of time. At the tiniest fraction of a second before the speed is zero, the pendulum is moving slowly in one direction (negative speed); and at the tiniest fraction of a second after the speed is zero, the pendulum is moving slowly in the other direction (positive speed). The speed is zero only for an "instant." Not even the smallest fraction of time passes during that instant.<hr /></blockquote>

mikepage
10-29-2007, 03:04 PM
Wow -- just arrived in town and I can't believe this discussion is going on here.

This issue is not a matter of opinion.

This issue is not a matter of semantics.

It's not just some geeky physics thing.

People who say things like that everyone pauses at the backstroke, some deliberately and some not, are just plain wrong.

Here are several physical systems with no pause at the turning point:

--a child on a swing
--a person on a bunjee cord
--a tide at high or low tide
--a plucked guitar string

All go through zero velocity at the turning point. Importantly, though, all have a significant restoring force that is in effect during the time the velocity goes through zero. There is a nonzero force and a nonzero acceleration.

To insert a pause, even a very brief one, into any of those systems would require the outside imposition of balancing force. For example, the bunjee cord person when he gets to the top could step onto a ledge. The child when all the way back on the swing could be held in place by a parent.

A person with a pause at the end of the backstroke must exert that force to get the pause. Even a short pause requires muscles to hold the cue in place. The paused cue in addition to having zero velocity has no net force and therefore no acceleration.

This is fundamentally different from the no-pause stroke. When the no-pause stroke is at zero velocity (stopped at the back of the backstroke) it *does* have a net force.

Here is a picture of the velocity of the cue from near the end of the backstroke to partway into the forward stroke for three different strokes, one with a longer pause, one with a shorter pause, and one with no pause.

The difference between a very short pause and no pause at all might seem to be nit picking. If it does, that means you don't understand what's going on. Because even a short pause requires balanced forces that are not going to happen by accident.

In the following diagram, the velocity starts out negative for each stroke and is approaching zero. That means the cue is moving backwards and slowing down to a stop. For the first two strokes the velocity is zero for finite lengths of time. These are pauses. They require no net force on the cue. The third stroke has no pause. That doesn't mean it doesn't stop; it does. But when stopped, there is a net forward force on the cue. This makes the situation qualitatively different from the strokes with a pause.

http://myweb.cableone.net/fargopage/pause.jpg

Students do not need this kind of technical stuff. At the same time it is important for instructors to stop teaching students things that are wrong. Telling students that everybody pauses at the backstroke is wrong.

Bob Jewett, Dr. Dave, and others explained it clearly here. If I sound frustrated, I apologize for that. But I really tried to explain this clearly on another forum. I know some people have been saying something contrary to this for a long time. But please recognize, you have to set your ego aside when entering these forums, and...you don't know what you don't know...

dr_dave
10-29-2007, 04:17 PM
Extremely well stated!!! Tap! Tap! Tap!

To everybody: please let the dead horse rest in peace on this topic. Also, let's all try to be a little more civil. All of the negative energy in this thread is disturbing.

Hoping for a better world,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mikepage:</font><hr> Wow -- just arrived in town and I can't believe this discussion is going on here.

This issue is not a matter of opinion.

This issue is not a matter of semantics.

It's not just some geeky physics thing.

People who say things like that everyone pauses at the backstroke, some deliberately and some not, are just plain wrong.

Here are several physical systems with no pause at the turning point:

--a child on a swing
--a person on a bunjee cord
--a tide at high or low tide
--a plucked guitar string

All go through zero velocity at the turning point. Importantly, though, all have a significant restoring force that is in effect during the time the velocity goes through zero. There is a nonzero force and a nonzero acceleration.

To insert a pause, even a very brief one, into any of those systems would require the outside imposition of balancing force. For example, the bunjee cord person when he gets to the top could step onto a ledge. The child when all the way back on the swing could be held in place by a parent.

A person with a pause at the end of the backstroke must exert that force to get the pause. Even a short pause requires muscles to hold the cue in place. The paused cue in addition to having zero velocity has no net force and therefore no acceleration.

This is fundamentally different from the no-pause stroke. When the no-pause stroke is at zero velocity (stopped at the back of the backstroke) it *does* have a net force.

Here is a picture of the velocity of the cue from near the end of the backstroke to partway into the forward stroke for three different strokes, one with a longer pause, one with a shorter pause, and one with no pause.

The difference between a very short pause and no pause at all might seem to be nit picking. If it does, that means you don't understand what's going on. Because even a short pause requires balanced forces that are not going to happen by accident.

In the following diagram, the velocity starts out negative for each stroke and is approaching zero. That means the cue is moving backwards and slowing down to a stop. For the first two strokes the velocity is zero for finite lengths of time. These are pauses. They require no net force on the cue. The third stroke has no pause. That doesn't mean it doesn't stop; it does. But when stopped, there is a net forward force on the cue. This makes the situation qualitatively different from the strokes with a pause.

http://myweb.cableone.net/fargopage/pause.jpg

Students do not need this kind of technical stuff. At the same time it is important for instructors to stop teaching students things that are wrong. Telling students that everybody pauses at the backstroke is wrong.

Bob Jewett, Dr. Dave, and others explained it clearly here. If I sound frustrated, I apologize for that. But I really tried to explain this clearly on another forum. I know some people have been saying something contrary to this for a long time. But please recognize, you have to set your ego aside when entering these forums, and...you don't know what you don't know... <hr /></blockquote>

Jal
10-29-2007, 05:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mikepage:</font><hr> Wow -- just arrived in town and I can't believe this discussion is going on here.

This issue is not a matter of opinion.

This issue is not a matter of semantics.

It's not just some geeky physics thing.

People who say things like that everyone pauses at the backstroke, some deliberately and some not, are just plain wrong....<hr /></blockquote>While I agree, I think we should acknowledge that words are not precisely defined. The set of things that fits a definition, and the set of things that fall outside the defintion, are probably never disjoint. If someone wants to apply the term "pause" to the brief passage through "zero" velocity, it doesn't seem like too big a stretch, although the dynamics is different.

An ancient Greek sophist (ahead of his time and familiar with modern physics) might point out that you can never say the cue is exactly at zero velocity, only awfully close. This 'close to zero' state lasts for a finite amount of time in either case (long pause versus short pause).

We should, in any case, try to get beyond this because we've only scratched the surface thus far.

For example, are the following pauses?

- The grip is sliding forward when the cue reaches "zero" velocity.

- On an elevated shot where gravity does its thing, or clamping the cue with the bridge hand to stop it, the grip hand is sliding backward.

- An observer is walking past the shooter and measures the cue's velocity as non-zero, even though from the shooter's perspective it has come to a stop.

- The observer is not in uniform motion but accelerating.

A tremendous amount of work remains. As for me, I'm going to immerse my head in the tub for a couple of days, and if I survive, return to see if all this has been worked out.

http://granitegrok.com/pix/angry_wet_cat.jpg

(pretend the above is a our horse)

Jim

pooltchr
10-29-2007, 05:41 PM
I find my students can learn "Set, Pause, and Finish" easier than "Set, Pass through zero velocity at the end of your backstroke, Finish".
Argue with the terminology if you like, but remember we are teaching pool, not a language course.
The reason we teach a pause is to allow the student to develop a smooth transition from the backward motion to the forward motion. If a student spends as much time practicing the SPF stroke as some would spend arguing about the terminology, I'm betting I can tell you which one is becoming a better pool player.
This whole thread has become a moot discussion. 3 second pause, 1/10 of a second pause, or a millisecond pause, or an instant of passing through zero velocity...something happens back there. Learning how to control it will help develop a better stroke. A discussion this long about terminology probably won't.
Steve

bradb
10-29-2007, 05:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Extremely well stated!!! Tap! Tap! Tap!

To everybody: please let the dead horse rest in peace on this topic. Also, let's all try to be a little more civil. All of the negative energy in this thread is disturbing.

Hoping for a better world,


-------------------------------------------------------------------

Dave... Miles post is all well and good but what the hell has it to do with pool? Mechanics should have never got in to this thread as we're talking the human body.. not swings, pistons, machines, advanced physics or anything else.... its pool!

I know you are a player, I've seen you pick up a cue and shoot a ball, so I assume you have some profeciency in this game. You know that the human body is not a mechanical device, if it was then we would all shoot better than Reyes, we would be perfect!

So I ask you to put on your pool players hat and put away the scientist hat for a bit.

Can pool players can be proficient with zero pause like the swing diagram in their stroke? The pause is for aiming and control, its part of the preshot routine. There are some players who start forward immediately after the back swing but would any instructor advise that?

Your pool players comment would be appreciated and hopefully no more condecending class in session on physics from others.

And then maybe the horse can rest in peace.

-brad

bradb
10-29-2007, 06:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>

(pretend the above is a our horse)

Jim <hr /></blockquote> /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Jim, if that is our horse we're in trouble, thats one mad kitty you got there! /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

dr_dave
10-29-2007, 10:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>... I ask you to put on your pool players hat and put away the scientist hat for a bit.

Can pool players can be proficient with zero pause like the swing diagram in their stroke?<hr /></blockquote>Absolutely yes! Many (if not most) great players have no "pause" (using the scientific definition) before their final forward stroke.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>There are some players who start forward immediately after the back swing but would any instructor advise that?<hr /></blockquote>Most definitely ... if it works for the individual.

Regards,
Dave

Scott Lee
10-30-2007, 08:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>... I ask you to put on your pool players hat and put away the scientist hat for a bit.

Can pool players can be proficient with zero pause like the swing diagram in their stroke?<hr /></blockquote>Absolutely yes! Many (if not most) great players have no "pause" (using the scientific definition) before their final forward stroke.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>There are some players who start forward immediately after the back swing but would any instructor advise that?<hr /></blockquote>Most definitely ... if it works for the individual.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

dave...IMO you just don't get it, and that's okay. Sometimes the "technical" aspect clouds the ability to accept what is an ordinary solution, to a constant problem...a smooth transition from the backswing to the forward, accelerated stroke (always accelerating because the stroke begins at zero velocity). The transition described by bradb is what we call The Jerk...a fast transition from the backswing to the forward stroke, which any competent instructor would never advocate (because it is a stroke killer). /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif This type of movement doesn't work because you cannot go backwards and forwards, at the same speed, at the same time. It's opposite motion. That's why there is a pause in the backswing of ALL poolplayers. For the last time, better poolplayers pause on purpose!

Scott Lee

Qtec
10-30-2007, 08:26 AM
Hi Fran, here is what I understand to be a pause. Marko Fu. You can see it clearly on his second shot.
video (http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=c46lPzulmYk)

Actually the cue comes to a dead stop. Backstroke and forward stroke are separated by a dead stop.



Q

dr_dave
10-30-2007, 08:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>... I ask you to put on your pool players hat and put away the scientist hat for a bit.

Can pool players can be proficient with zero pause like the swing diagram in their stroke?<hr /></blockquote>Absolutely yes! Many (if not most) great players have no "pause" (using the scientific definition) before their final forward stroke.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>There are some players who start forward immediately after the back swing but would any instructor advise that?<hr /></blockquote>Most definitely ... if it works for the individual.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

dave...IMO you just don't get it, and that's okay. Sometimes the "technical" aspect clouds the ability to accept what is an ordinary solution, to a constant problem...a smooth transition from the backswing to the forward, accelerated stroke (always accelerating because the stroke begins at zero velocity). The transition described by bradb is what we call The Jerk...a fast transition from the backswing to the forward stroke, which any competent instructor would never advocate (because it is a stroke killer). /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif This type of movement doesn't work because you cannot go backwards and forwards, at the same speed, at the same time. It's opposite motion. That's why there is a pause in the backswing of ALL poolplayers. For the last time, better poolplayers pause on purpose!<hr /></blockquote>Scott,

I could also respond: "you just don't get it," but that would be disrespectful, immature, and nonproductive ... so I won't.

FYI, I agree 100% with your entire paragraph (except the first sentence), because I know what you mean when you use the word "pause." You mean "a non-jerky transition." I can't imagine anybody disagreeing with the need for this kind of "pause." If you still think I don't understand, please see my stroke "best parctices" document (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf).

Again (and finally), I prefer to use clearer terminology so people who read my stuff won't misinterpret what I am writing. I prefer to use "smooth transition" for a non-jerky stroke where there is no perceptible "pause" in the motion. Here I am using the accepted common and scientific interpretation of the term "pause" implying the cue is purposefully held stationary for an interval of time (i.e., not just an instant). When there is a distinct pause (i.e., motion suspended and stopped for more than an instant) before the final forward stroke (e.g., as with Allison Fisher and Buddy Hall), I refer to this as a "deliberate pause." I think this is clear to most people.

I'm done. The horse's dead and mutilated corpse is no longer even recognizable as a horse.

Regards,
Dave

bradb
10-30-2007, 03:45 PM
(Quote Dave) I could also respond: "you just don't get it," but that would be disrespectful, immature, and nonproductive ... so I won't.

FYI, I agree 100% with your entire paragraph (except the first sentence), because I know what you mean when you use the word "pause." You mean "a non-jerky transition." I can't imagine anybody disagreeing with the need for this kind of "pause." If you still think I don't understand, please see my stroke "best parctices" document (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf).

Again (and finally), I prefer to use clearer terminology so people who read my stuff won't misinterpret what I am writing. I prefer to use "smooth transition" for a non-jerky stroke where there is no perceptible "pause" in the motion. Here I am using the accepted common and scientific interpretation of the term "pause" implying the cue is purposefully held stationary for an interval of time (i.e., not just an instant). When there is a distinct pause (i.e., motion suspended and stopped for more than an instant) before the final forward stroke (e.g., as with Allison Fisher and Buddy Hall), I refer to this as a "deliberate pause." I think this is clear to most people.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Sorry Dave but I'm afraid Scott gets it very well.

I'm not saying you're wrong, you are right in saying its a smooth transition, but my instructor and many other top players mention the pause because you do bring the cue to a complete stop and hold it for a short time as you lock in the line, the point of contact and even sometimes the pace. At this point the body is completely frozen there is no movement anywhere.
Once again I refer to Coreys stroke at shots 1 to 3. Hes very typical in his stroke.

There are a few players I can name in my league of 226 players, who show no pause in thier stroke... those 2 are at the bottom (I'm no 27) and they need to work on their stroke because they have a "jerk" stroke at the ball.

This horse will die when we all have a concensus on what constitiutes a good stroke in pool. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

av84fun
11-03-2007, 11:23 PM
1time..."Wrong.

Whether there is right and wrong depends on what we are talking about. If it's what kind of a day each of us had today (average, good, or better), then yes, there is no right and wrong. However, if for example it's a math problem and one of us argues 1+1=2 and the other 1+1=3, then there definitely is a right and wrong."

WRONG...YOU ARE BUSTED. What you suggest is right and wrong is only true in base 10 math.

In Base 7 for example 36 + 144 = 213.

By the way, what does it feel like to fall off a high horse???

And since you keep banning people from your responses if they don't agree with you, let me ask you this. In base 10 math, how long will it take you to exclude everyone on this forum and be left to conduct monologues?

ROFLMAO
(-:

pooltchr
11-04-2007, 08:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> This horse will die when we all have a concensus on what constitiutes a good stroke in pool. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

The horse isn't going to die. Some players are going to take a stand and defend their position. Many are so focused on the minor point of whether or not a cue stops between the back stroke and forward stroke, they are missing the important part. Others will just do whatever they can to improve their stroke. This thread is just like so many others on the subject. Having a pause (regardless of length) at the end of the back stroke helps make for a smoother transition from one direction to the other. Deciding whether or not a cue ball stops when it is thrown straight up in the air has nothing to do with a smooth stroke. In 40 plus years of playing pool, I have never had a shot that required me to throw the cue ball straight up in the air. I have had thousands that required me to deliver my cue stick forward in a STRAIGHT line. Isn't that what we should be concerned about?
Steve

KellyStick
11-04-2007, 10:12 AM
I got two things outa this thread. One was to consider an intentional pause as part of my stroke. I do this intentionally sometimes on the break. I don't know why. So I have something to think about.

The best thing I got was an animated picture posted by Fran of the dead horse being beaten. Now that was funny!

mikepage
11-04-2007, 10:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> [...] Having a pause (regardless of length) at the end of the back stroke helps make for a smoother transition from one direction to the other. <hr /></blockquote>

I agree that a smooth transition is very important. If you look at this video at 6:48, you see a jerky transition labeled as "bad" and a smooth transition labeled as "good."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0hs4Ka1xMA

These are plots of position versus time for a pool cue going straight back and then straight forward. "Smoothness" is about having no "jumps" in speed, i.e., no discontinuous changes in speed. On these curves, that means the slopes of the two curves must match up at the transitions.

At 6:53 in the same video, you see a pause inserted. With the pause there are now two transitions between simple motions rather than one. There are two transitions where the speeds (slopes of the tangents) need to match up.



[ QUOTE ]
Deciding whether or not a cue ball stops when it is thrown straight up in the air has nothing to do with a smooth stroke. <hr /></blockquote>

I agree. Smoothness is a separate issue. That discussion had to do with helping people to understand the distinction between pause and no pause.

[ QUOTE ]
In 40 plus years of playing pool, I have never had a shot that required me to throw the cue ball straight up in the air. I have had thousands that required me to deliver my cue stick forward in a STRAIGHT line. Isn't that what we should be concerned about? <hr /></blockquote>

The diversion was about the understanding of what's going on, not about the goals of a good stroke.

But yes, what is and what isn't important for sending the cue repeatedly in a straight line is what's most important. I agree with that.

Fran Crimi
11-04-2007, 11:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote KellyStick:</font><hr> I got two things outa this thread. One was to consider an intentional pause as part of my stroke. I do this intentionally sometimes on the break. I don't know why. So I have something to think about.

The best thing I got was an animated picture posted by Fran of the dead horse being beaten. Now that was funny! <hr /></blockquote>

LOL. Happy to oblidge. I kept thinking how these guys were going back and forth and back and forth (not that I haven't done it myself on occasion /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif) so I did an image search and typed "beating a dead horse." Who woulda thunk something like that would have popped up in the results?? It was too good to pass up.

Fran

1Time
11-04-2007, 12:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> The horse isn't going to die. <hr /></blockquote>
That's what I said. But the horse in question is what constitutes a pause at the back of one's stroke. The several other topics related to this thread are not as contentious, and this is primarily because of those who refuse to admit to having been proven wrong. A pause does not exist in all strokes.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Some players are going to take a stand and defend their position. <hr /></blockquote>
Nothing wrong or problematic with defending one's position, unless of course you've already been shown to be wrong.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>Many are so focused on the minor point of whether or not a cue stops between the back stroke and forward stroke, they are missing the important part. <hr /></blockquote>
The important part of this thread has to do with a pause in one's stroke. And the point of agreeing on a working definition of a pause at the back of one's stroke is central to being able to discuss this important part.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>Others will just do whatever they can to improve their stroke. <hr /></blockquote>
And those willing to do whatever they can to improve their stroke, should not be fooled by those contradicting Bob_Jewett's working definition of a pause at the back of the stroke.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>This thread is just like so many others on the subject. <hr /></blockquote>
No. This thread is different than all others on the subject because it has resulted in a working definition of "pause", and it has provided sound reasoning for it.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>Having a pause (regardless of length) at the end of the back stroke helps make for a smoother transition from one direction to the other.<hr /></blockquote>
For there to be a pause, the arm and stick would need to be motionless for longer than the instant it takes to reverse motion.

And, for an even smoother transition from reverse to forward, one would need to use a loop at the end of the back stroke, which technically is present anytime a pause is not used.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>Deciding whether or not a cue ball stops when it is thrown straight up in the air has nothing to do with a smooth stroke.<hr /></blockquote>
No. A cue ball thrown straight up in the air may help some understand that a pause does not necessarily occur when a change of direction takes place on a single axis. And such an example is provided and discussed for the benefit of those who have yet to understand or are still unwilling to admit this.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> In 40 plus years of playing pool, I have never had a shot that required me to throw the cue ball straight up in the air. <hr /></blockquote>
This is like a race car driver saying, "In my 40 plus years of racing, I have never run a race that required me to drive stationary in a wind tunnel." Aerodynamics is an important part of race car driving, just like the choice of whether to use a pause or not in one's pool stroke is an important part of playing pool.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>I have had thousands that required me to deliver my cue stick forward in a STRAIGHT line. Isn't that what we should be concerned about?
Steve <hr /></blockquote>
No. If you want to discuss the virtues of delivering a cue forward in a straight line, then start a new thread. I'd be glad to contribute to it.

This thread is about a pause at the back of one's stroke. And a useful discussion of this obviously requires a working definition of the word "pause".

Jal
11-04-2007, 12:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>...Having a pause (regardless of length) at the end of the back stroke helps make for a smoother transition from one direction to the other.<hr /></blockquote>I'm not disagreeing, nor necessarilly agreeing, but what is the basis for saying this. I mean, does it come from a study of muscle operation, or that maybe a majority of great players pause, or what?

Deeman gave some good reasons early on in the thread, but are there others?

Jim

1Time
11-04-2007, 01:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>LOL. Happy to oblidge. I kept thinking how these guys were going back and forth and back and forth (not that I haven't done it myself on occasion /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif) so I did an image search and typed "beating a dead horse." Who woulda thunk something like that would have popped up in the results?? It was too good to pass up.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

That beating a dead horse animation is the only one I've seen used in the past few years in other forums when someone considers a topic discussed at length to be not worth discussing any further. I consider it the defacto standard animation for this purpose.

And despite its obvious appropriateness to many reading this thread, I am quite proud of having continued the discussion regarding this horse / topic since it resulted in a working definition of the word pause. And so now this definition can be used to help separate fact from the fiction still offered by some here, and provide a foundation from which more beneficial discussion regarding a stroke can proceed.

wolfdancer
11-04-2007, 02:59 PM
only thing I got out of this thread is everybody's arguing semantics....definite pause, noticeable pause, smooth transition, etc....all this in the nano seconds it takes to change the cue's direction.
I think a poll would have been much better..."who pauses, who don't"
The pause might work for some, and not for others...what's the problem? That's why they make both chocolate and vanilla ice cream....

bradb
11-04-2007, 03:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mikepage:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> [...] Having a pause (regardless of length) at the end of the back stroke helps make for a smoother transition from one direction to the other. <hr /></blockquote>

I agree that a smooth transition is very important. If you look at this video at 6:48, you see a jerky transition labeled as "bad" and a smooth transition labeled as "good."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0hs4Ka1xMA

These are plots of position versus time for a pool cue going straight back and then straight forward. "Smoothness" is about having no "jumps" in speed, i.e., no discontinuous changes in speed. On these curves, that means the slopes of the two curves must match up at the transitions.

At 6:53 in the same video, you see a pause inserted. With the pause there are now two transitions between simple motions rather than one. There are two transitions where the speeds (slopes of the tangents) need to match up.



&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Deciding whether or not a cue ball stops when it is thrown straight up in the air has nothing to do with a smooth stroke. <hr /></blockquote>

I agree. Smoothness is a separate issue. That discussion had to do with helping people to understand the distinction between pause and no pause.

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
In 40 plus years of playing pool, I have never had a shot that required me to throw the cue ball straight up in the air. I have had thousands that required me to deliver my cue stick forward in a STRAIGHT line. Isn't that what we should be concerned about? <hr /></blockquote>

The diversion was about the understanding of what's going on, not about the goals of a good stroke.

But yes, what is and what isn't important for sending the cue repeatedly in a straight line is what's most important. I agree with that.
<hr /></blockquote>

I'm sorry but that video will do nothing but totally confuse a student on executing a shot. I've been playing this game for 40 years and I find it completly alien to actual playing. I also think in its totally academic approach its falling into some assumptions that are not neccesarily true. A smooth transition is important but that does'nt mean you don't stop and hold. I won't go into that as it has been explained very well by more advanced players here than me.

I think that for instructional purposes we should study how best to pocket a ball. In other words what do the pro instructors teach. If you are looking for a player to emulate... would that player be Paez, who has a jerky stroke and lifts up his head? Or Fisher who probably has one of the nicest strokes in pool?

All I know is my game improved 100% when I worked on a pause in my stroke. To me all pauses are deliberate because if you are not doing it, then you are jerking or slashing at the ball.

Thats my opinion, some share it some don't. -brad

1Time
11-04-2007, 04:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> only thing I got out of this thread is everybody's arguing semantics....definite pause, noticeable pause, smooth transition, etc....all this in the nano seconds it takes to change the cue's direction.<hr /></blockquote>
If that's all you got out of it, then you failed to follow the thread closely enough. Some here claim a pause exists in everyone's stroke, while others claim it only exists when (fill in the blank). All reasonable discussion in this thread on the matter led up to and supports the definition of a pause as presented by Bob_Jewett, and I quote it as follows:
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> I think a more useful and correct definition of a pause, and also simpler, is that the arm/stick should be motionless for longer than the instant it takes to reverse motion. <hr /></blockquote>
There, now you know whether or not a pause exists in one's stroke and can participate in relevant discussions in an understood and meaningful way.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>I think a poll would have been much better..."who pauses, who don't" <hr /></blockquote>
No. Without first providing a working definition of the word "pause", there's no way such a poll would be better; it would be virtually meaningless. Some who don't pause, think they do. Some who do pause, think they don't. And any discussion during such a poll that does not first provide a working definition of the word "pause", inevitably would lead to a discussion regarding the need for one.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>The pause might work for some, and not for others...what's the problem? That's why they make both chocolate and vanilla ice cream.... <hr /></blockquote>
I posted to this effect on the first page of this thread, and no one in their right mind here has been arguing that one way is better than the other for everyone or for every shot.

1Time
11-04-2007, 04:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mikepage:</font><hr>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0hs4Ka1xMA

At 6:53 in the same video, you see a pause inserted.
<hr /></blockquote>
Unfortunately this video fails to adequately define what does and does not constitute a pause at the end of the back stroke. However, it does make it quite clear that strokes do exist with and without a pause at the end of the back stroke.

I didn't watch the whole video, but I did watch enough to consider it unnecessarily anti-pause.

KellyStick
11-04-2007, 05:24 PM
So since the horse is dead. Apparently it is an undead horse and we have not figured out the secret for killing it like we have for Vampires... Someone, I forgot who, suggested that we had come up with a definition for "pause" as it relates to stroking the ball in pool, or billiards or snooker or any other form of the sport.

Could someone, summarize what they feel are the offered definitions for stroke in this thread for us to further ponder and agree to? The goal would be to agree to the definition. This might be best done through another post and perhaps ultimately a vote. Apparently this is a long standing controversy that we might put to rest. At least from a definition standpoint.

There might also be more than one definition like there often is in the dictionary. One a very technical definition, one a more practical definition and perhaps some others. I dunno. Thoughts? So the intent is to come to some sort of conclusion and actually kill or otherwise subdue the undead Pause horse.

KellyStick
11-04-2007, 05:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote KellyStick:</font><hr>
Could someone, summarize what they feel are the offered definitions for stroke in this thread for us to further ponder and agree to? . <hr /></blockquote>

Ack! I said Stroke. I meant Pause!! Above

Fran Crimi
11-04-2007, 05:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>LOL. Happy to oblidge. I kept thinking how these guys were going back and forth and back and forth (not that I haven't done it myself on occasion /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif) so I did an image search and typed "beating a dead horse." Who woulda thunk something like that would have popped up in the results?? It was too good to pass up.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

That beating a dead horse animation is the only one I've seen used in the past few years in other forums when someone considers a topic discussed at length to be not worth discussing any further. I consider it the defacto standard animation for this purpose.

And despite its obvious appropriateness to many reading this thread, I am quite proud of having continued the discussion regarding this horse / topic since it resulted in a working definition of the word pause. And so now this definition can be used to help separate fact from the fiction still offered by some here, and provide a foundation from which more beneficial discussion regarding a stroke can proceed. <hr /></blockquote>

Well, other than express my opinion briefly, I've pretty much stayed out of the thread, and I'm not satisfied with the alleged working definition, so as far as I'm concerned, nothing has been settled here other than some people finding out they agree and some finding out they don't.

Fran

bradb
11-04-2007, 06:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote KellyStick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote KellyStick:</font><hr>
Could someone, summarize what they feel are the offered definitions for stroke in this thread for us to further ponder and agree to? . <hr /></blockquote>

Ack! I said Stroke. I meant Pause!! Above <hr /></blockquote>

Kelly.... For my final 2 cents most deffinitions for a stroke (and this includes Daves) is:

- no pause

- pause

- deliberate pause.

I think the argument is: Daves and Mikes camp say that No pause is ok. Others including myself say it is needed... that No pause is a poor (jerky) stroke.

-If I am wrong may the thousand sewers of Rangoon back up in my backstroke. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Vapros
11-04-2007, 06:58 PM
This horse has been stinking for several days, and it's getting worse. Whether it's dead or not, it needs burying. If a couple of you youngsters will dig a hole, I will bring a thunder mug full of plastic flowers. I've had indoor plumbing for some time now.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

bradb
11-05-2007, 11:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vapros:</font><hr> This horse has been stinking for several days, and it's getting worse. Whether it's dead or not, it needs burying. If a couple of you youngsters will dig a hole, I will bring a thunder mug full of plastic flowers. I've had indoor plumbing for some time now.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I suggest a Viking funeral, we'll send that sucker out to sea, aflame and charted for the Bermuda Triangle.

1Time
11-06-2007, 01:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote KellyStick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote KellyStick:</font><hr>
Could someone, summarize what they feel are the offered definitions for stroke in this thread for us to further ponder and agree to? . <hr /></blockquote>

Ack! I said Stroke. I meant Pause!! Above <hr /></blockquote>

Sure, here you go. Here's the only surviving definition from this thread of the word "pause" as it applies to a pool stroke.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> I think a more useful and correct definition of a pause, and also simpler, is that the arm/stick should be motionless for longer than the instant it takes to reverse motion. <hr /></blockquote>

1Time
11-06-2007, 02:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Well, other than express my opinion briefly, I've pretty much stayed out of the thread, and I'm not satisfied with the alleged working definition, so as far as I'm concerned, nothing has been settled here other than some people finding out they agree and some finding out they don't.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Everyone need not agree with a definition for it to be a "working definition". And it is naive to think otherwise or that everyone will agree on one definition.