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View Full Version : Why not learn to play better pool?



1Time
10-10-2007, 02:14 AM
I am willing to learn pool from practically anyone. If you've got something to show me, I'm ready to learn. So what is it about so many players that keeps them from wanting to learn how to play better pool?

I beat my pool buddy tonight on a bar box 17 wins to his 10 in 8-ball, his favorite game. Mine is 9-ball and I'm sure I would thrash him. So I'm just banging balls around for fun and later learn he's keeping track of how many games each of us have won. So anyway I saw many shortcomings in his game that I could show him how to develop that I'm sure would make his game much better. The guy's a straight shooter with 9 years of experience and tons of interest in pool. He's moving out of state next week so I offered to show him some things, if interested, but he just smoothed over my offer. All I can think is "what a waste".

Ralph_Kramden
10-10-2007, 09:13 AM
Why not just tell him about this forum? If he is as interested as you say he would probably learn a lot here. If he reads posts about the game by people such as Dr. Dave or Bob Jewett he would pick up valuable information that has reliable background.
I don't mean to imply that your helping him would be anything more than useful but... some people just don't want to listen. Whether they they feel intimidated or feel they know more than the person who wants to help them is something you would not know. By reading tried and true facts they may pick up something that they could use.
I try to listen to anything someone has to offer and check out anything I can about what was said. I will then either try to use the info to see if it improves my game play or I will disguard it completely.

bradb
10-10-2007, 10:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph_Kramden:</font><hr> Why not just tell him about this forum? If he is as interested as you say he would probably learn a lot here. If he reads posts about the game by people such as Dr. Dave or Bob Jewett he would pick up valuable information that has reliable background.
I don't mean to imply that your helping him would be anything more than useful but... some people just don't want to listen. Whether they they feel intimidated or feel they know more than the person who wants to help them is something you would not know. By reading tried and true facts they may pick up something that they could use.
I try to listen to anything someone has to offer and check out anything I can about what was said. I will then either try to use the info to see if it improves my game play or I will disguard it completely. <hr /></blockquote>

I think sharing pool knowledge with other players is something that comes with experience in organized competition. I'm not saying thats the only way for a player to advance but it is a good way to really learn this game.

When I first started years ago I banged the balls around in the local pool hall like most players do, learning nothing and advancing only by trial and error. In that invironment we tend to be defensive and lie to ourselves about how good we really are. So when another player offers advise we feel its belittling our ability and to accept it would be to admit maybe we're not that good.

In competition we are forced to confront our true level of play and that can be humbling. Once we accept that then we can grow, it took me years to get to that self realization. Discussing and observing play with other experienced players has elevated me up to a whole new level. It has also changed my outlook, I no longer judge players, I realize its a constant growing process and at the higher levels everyone has something to offer. So when anyone critiques my stroke I'm all ears.

Its irritating as hell to watch someone flail around in the local pool hall who thinks they're a hot shot, but its best to just ignore them. BTDT.

SKennedy
10-10-2007, 10:33 AM
It's about ego......and there is a lot of wasted talent out there.
I played well last night....feel real good about it. I'm sure this feeling will be gone the next time I play.

bsmutz
10-10-2007, 12:17 PM
My experience has been that once you have the basic fundamentals down and you start to shoot at a decent speed, it's the little things that make the most difference in your progress from that point forward. However, I think you really need to spend a lot of time incorporating those little changes into your game or you never really can figure out if they are worth keeping or not.

For instance, say you change your grip one night and shoot really well. You might make the assumption that the reason you shot well was because of the change in grip. If you are only playing one or two nights a week, it may take months or longer to really figure out if that change in grip will be consistent for you over the long haul. And that's only if you can remember to use it every time you go out to play. Habit is a tough thing to overcome.

I've had a few friends that I have tried to help when we have both agreed that they needed help and they felt that what I told them could potentially help their game. Usually, I will say "these are the small changes that I have made that have made me more consistent". One guy was always jacked up when shooting. His cue was elevated to about 30 degrees or so on almost every shot. In the time that I played with him, when I would remind him to lower his upper arm, he would lower it for that shot and immediately go back to being jacked up on the next shot.

Another guy that I shoot with every week drops his elbow, no pause, and quite often aims so that his misses always go off to the left of where he should be aiming. He agrees that he is more consistent without the elbow drop and with a pause. But, (like me) he has a very hard time remembering these things when he's playing. I'm slowly getting better at it, but I play every day and it is much easier for me to make improvements and spend the time to make sure that I do what I think is the right thing on most shots.

Unfortunately for me, I have a slow deliberate game (the way I know I should play and the more consistent way) and a fast/loose game (which works okay, but is less consistent) that I used for years and still unconsciously revert back to on occasion (too often).

To get back to the topic in a more direct manner, instead of offering your services as a more knowledgeable player (which is how most will view it), tell them that you've been working on trying to be more consistent with your game and through reading these forums you've learned that x, y, and z have really helped you. Don't even make it about them. Just let them know that you are really excited because you figured out that doing such and such really made a difference for you. Hopefully, they will be interested and you can start a discussion about all the things you think they need help with (but making it about you and not them).

Some people welcome input and seriously try to put that knowledge that they get to good use. Others don't want to know what they don't know or won't take the time to find out if it works for them. Nothing you can do.

Another thing is information overload. I seriously think that you can only work on so many aspects of your game at one time. In fact, I think it helps to only try to incorporate one improvement at a time so you can really see what the outcome is. Keep the list going, but tackle them on their own so you can make a true evaluation. I've been trying for years to remember to stay down on the shot and follow through along with keeping the elbow up and a bunch of other stuff. It's only now that I've started adding in a few minor things that have really been making a difference that I can see.

These are just my thoughts on the matter and in no way should anyone infer that I am by any means an expert on any subject.

Deeman3
10-10-2007, 12:36 PM
I think I have found that when someone is ready to listen or learn, they will let you know. Pride is very strong especially among pool players and most of us don't easily admit to not knowing something. I have learned from many great players but some who don't play so well.

I saw a special on the making of Japanese swords the other night. Much of their attention to detail resounds strongly to pool knowledge and learning. However, many will never bother with the details to make an outstanding sword and many more will not bother to learn the very tough parts of our game. You can't save 'em all.

I can be as hard headed as anyone and sometimes have to make myself listen to someone I suspect may not know something, then am surprised at what they know. I then learn.

okinawa77
10-10-2007, 01:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> I think I have found that when someone is ready to listen or learn, they will let you know. Pride is very strong especially among pool players and most of us don't easily admit to not knowing something. I have learned from many great players but some who don't play so well.

I saw a special on the making of Japanese swords the other night. Much of their attention to detail resounds strongly to pool knowledge and learning. However, many will never bother with the details to make an outstanding sword and many more will not bother to learn the very tough parts of our game. You can't save 'em all.

I can be as hard headed as anyone and sometimes have to make myself listen to someone I suspect may not know something, then am surprised at what they know. I then learn. <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue"> In the samurai days, 2 swords were never the same. That isn't to say they were not of the highest quality... They were each custom made for the user. Some blades took 10 years or more to make.

I have found that I will only offer advice to other players, if and only if, they ask. Otherwise, I just watch and make mental notes of their weaknesses....and will exploit those weaknesses during match play. It's kind of a win, win situation. I am increasing my odds on winning the match, and I am giving my opponent an opportunity to identify a weakness in their game.

I have instances whereas I have explained and demonstrated techniques over and over again, but sometimes it never sinks in. Some people just have to learn it by themselves.

Some people know that there is a transition phase when incorporating a new concept/technique, and will not be open to any changes due to a near future competition.

I, on the other hand, listen to anything, anyone wants to share. I haven't had very many people openly offering me advice, and I am beginning to realize....that I haven't been asking for any.

I am playing APA 8 ball tonight. I think I will start asking people more questions. I am already more knowledgable than most, but questions are....like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get.-Forrest Gump</font color>

Vapros
10-10-2007, 01:28 PM
I would point out that there are almost as many instructors as there are players. I can't think of anything more available than advice, and a lot of it is terrible. For example, I know a guy (rotten player) who loves to give instruction to anyone who will listen, and the rest of us have to roll our eyes and bite our tongues, as there should be a law against his type of help.

Moral: get your help from experts. Ignore the shmuck at the end of the table, watching for his chance to tell you what to do and how to do it. All he can teach you is how to be a shmuck.

wolfdancer
10-10-2007, 02:40 PM
There is a Zen saying that goes something like this...the Master does not teach until the student is ready to learn. Fred Shoemaker, in his book, also pointed out the problems with offering unasked for advice.
Giving advice changes the whole dynamic from that of friendly competitors to that of teacher/student....with your former opponent now judging your play. Now if I was to win 10 out of 27, and think back to the 3 or 4 others that I should have won, while forgetting about the 4 or 5 more, I should have lost....my own ego would be questioning why the other guy is trying to teach me, since we are about equal in skill.
Then, another problem arises as the MBTI lists 16 different learning styles....
Introversion people need reflection and concentration...their motto is "ready, aim, aim...."
Extroversion people are on the fly thinkers...their motto is
"ready, aim, fire"
And Sensing Vs Intuition:
The Sensing type player would prefer to study the Dr. Dave style material first, while the intuitive player might just observe and begin to run balls ....

web page (http://www2.gsu.edu/~dschjb/wwwmbti.html)
I'm thinking though, that you would be receptive to taking a lesson, or two from the poster...and afterwards playing him for a few shekels....

Deeman3
10-10-2007, 03:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I'm thinking though, that you would be receptive to taking a lesson, or two from the poster...and afterwards playing him for a few shekels.... <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Moi? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color>

okinawa77
10-10-2007, 03:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> There is a Zen saying that goes something like this...the Master does not teach until the student is ready to learn. Fred Shoemaker, in his book, also pointed out the problems with offering unasked for advice.
Giving advice changes the whole dynamic from that of friendly competitors to that of teacher/student....with your former opponent now judging your play. Now if I was to win 10 out of 27, and think back to the 3 or 4 others that I should have won, while forgetting about the 4 or 5 more, I should have lost....my own ego would be questioning why the other guy is trying to teach me, since we are about equal in skill.
Then, another problem arises as the MBTI lists 16 different learning styles....
Introversion people need reflection and concentration...their motto is "ready, aim, aim...."
Extroversion people are on the fly thinkers...their motto is
"ready, aim, fire"
And Sensing Vs Intuition:
The Sensing type player would prefer to study the Dr. Dave style material first, while the intuitive player might just observe and begin to run balls ....

web page (http://www2.gsu.edu/~dschjb/wwwmbti.html)
I'm thinking though, that you would be receptive to taking a lesson, or two from the poster...and afterwards playing him for a few shekels.... <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue">
Wolfdancer,
What would you call someone that: when is playing pool, is thinking of about all the possible shots they have available, then choosing the one that seems would have highest probability of success;....and when not playing pool, watching videos and reading books about pool;.....and when at work, reading online publications and forums;.....and when driving in traffic, imagining playing games, and past shot situations, and concepts of cue ball spin, and game strategies???

What kind of learning style do I have?</font color>

Deeman3
10-10-2007, 03:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr> <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue">
Wolfdancer,
What would you call someone that: when is playing pool, is thinking of about all the possible shots they have available, then choosing the one that seems would have highest probability of success;....and when not playing pool, watching videos and reading books about pool;.....and when at work, reading online publications and forums;.....and when driving in traffic, imagining playing games, and past shot situations, and concepts of cue ball spin, and game strategies???

What kind of learning style do I have?</font color> <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">
You didn't ask me but I'd call you a much better student than most of us. </font color>

1Time
10-10-2007, 03:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph_Kramden:</font><hr> Why not just tell him about this forum? <hr /></blockquote>
I did, and that I participate here and thought he'd find it helpful. He doesn't have a computer and does not seem to be the computer type.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph_Kramden:</font><hr>
If he is as interested as you say he would probably learn a lot here. If he reads posts about the game by people such as Dr. Dave or Bob Jewett he would pick up valuable information that has reliable background.
I don't mean to imply that your helping him would be anything more than useful but... some people just don't want to listen. Whether they they feel intimidated or feel they know more than the person who wants to help them is something you would not know. By reading tried and true facts they may pick up something that they could use.<hr /></blockquote>

I agree, and in reading this it came to me that I could address some of the issues I saw in his game in writing and print some stuff out for him as a going away gift.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph_Kramden:</font><hr>
I try to listen to anything someone has to offer and check out anything I can about what was said. I will then either try to use the info to see if it improves my game play or I will disguard it completely. <hr /></blockquote>

I do this too, and it seems to be a common practice among those who are "teachable".

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> Its irritating as hell to watch someone flail around in the local pool hall who thinks they're a hot shot, but its best to just ignore them. <hr /></blockquote>

This does not irritate me at all. Rather, it entices me to "teach them a lesson", and I am prone to actively pursuing the opportunity to do so.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> It's about ego......and there is a lot of wasted talent out there.<hr /></blockquote>

I agree, protecting the ego. And what can be done about the wasted talent out there is what I intended the focus of this thread to be.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr>I played well last night....feel real good about it. I'm sure this feeling will be gone the next time I play. <hr /></blockquote>

I used to feel like this and was quite frustrated by not consistently playing at a high level. However, my game eventually jumped to a higher level, and I now no longer wonder whether I will play well. I just look forward to it.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> My experience has been that once you have the basic fundamentals down and you start to shoot at a decent speed, it's the little things that make the most difference in your progress from that point forward. However, I think you really need to spend a lot of time incorporating those little changes into your game or you never really can figure out if they are worth keeping or not. <hr /></blockquote>

This is mostly what I thought of my pool buddy's game. He said he's an APA SL5, which means little to me, but he's missing out on some fundamentals and finer points to the game that I could easily see taking him to a higher level of play.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> To get back to the topic in a more direct manner, instead of offering your services as a more knowledgeable player (which is how most will view it), tell them that you've been working on trying to be more consistent with your game and through reading these forums you've learned that x, y, and z have really helped you. Don't even make it about them. Just let them know that you are really excited because you figured out that doing such and such really made a difference for you. Hopefully, they will be interested and you can start a discussion about all the things you think they need help with (but making it about you and not them). <hr /></blockquote>

I'm likely to only get one more chance of playing this guy (after he gets done licking his wounds). And at this point I've determined the best way to get through to him is to beat him mercilessly into submission. And then later hand him some print outs of my own design and of those found here at BD and elsewhere online.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> Others don't want to know what they don't know or won't take the time to find out if it works for them. Nothing you can do. <hr /></blockquote>

Sure, there are people who don't care enough about their game to improve. However, for the avid player like this guy, I suspect he will be more likely to become more "teachable" sooner rather than later if I crush his game and then provide a less ego threatening means for him to get better, like written material.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr>Another thing is information overload. I seriously think that you can only work on so many aspects of your game at one time. <hr /></blockquote>

This is true. I've always found it best to work on one thing at a time. And then if I could not satisfactorily learn something, I'd move on to something else and then come back to it later.

And this leads me to think this guy might not be in a place right now in his life to be willing to learn new things, but may be later on. That had not occurred to me until now.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> I think I have found that when someone is ready to listen or learn, they will let you know. Pride is very strong especially among pool players and most of us don't easily admit to not knowing something. I have learned from many great players but some who don't play so well. <hr /></blockquote>

Sure, but what brings prideful players around to becoming teachable players? See my earlier comments.

I too have learned from a great many players and from some who don't play well. And to me this is the definition of a very teachable player.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr>
I have found that I will only offer advice to other players, if and only if, they ask. Otherwise, I just watch and make mental notes of their weaknesses....and will exploit those weaknesses during match play. It's kind of a win, win situation. I am increasing my odds on winning the match, and I am giving my opponent an opportunity to identify a weakness in their game. <hr /></blockquote>

I have no problem sizing up a player's willingness learn, share, or instruct. Either they want to or they don't. And if they don't, on the pool table I treat them as my competition. If they do, then I'm willing to share what I know and learn what they have to offer. If they subsequently use what I've shared to beat me, then I would congratulate them and take pride in having helped someone elevate their game. I would look forward to seeing that happen, he-he.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr>
I have instances whereas I have explained and demonstrated techniques over and over again, but sometimes it never sinks in. Some people just have to learn it by themselves. <hr /></blockquote>

I see this being due to two main things. One is an unsuccessful delivery of instruction, too hard, too fast, inappropriate material, or whatever. And two, not giving the student adequate time to practice what's instructed, frequency, duration, etc. With such students, I recommend teaching success. By that I mean, slow things way down and begin by teaching what they already are successful at. Once what is taught is demonstrated by the student, very gradually attempt to add small changes to their game, one at a time.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr> Some people know that there is a transition phase when incorporating a new concept/technique, and will not be open to any changes due to a near future competition. <hr /></blockquote>

Sure, this is true and wise. But how best to move one from competition mode to improvement mode is my question.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote okinawa77:</font><hr>
I, on the other hand, listen to anything, anyone wants to share. I haven't had very many people openly offering me advice, and I am beginning to realize....that I haven't been asking for any.<hr /></blockquote>

And I'm like you in this regard. People like us are just too far and few between.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vapros:</font><hr> I would point out that there are almost as many instructors as there are players. I can't think of anything more available than advice, and a lot of it is terrible.<hr /></blockquote>

It has not been my experience that there are almost as many instructors as there are players. And while I have cringed at the instruction I have seen some provide, I support their effort to help someone willing to learn better pool. And if that student does not find help in that instruction, no problem. I just make myself available to provide better instruction or refer them to someone else.

Fran Crimi
10-10-2007, 04:01 PM
How do you cut and paste all those pieces of text from different posts into one post? Is there a trick to it? I can't seem to do it without a lot of difficulty.

Fran

1Time
10-10-2007, 04:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> How do you cut and paste all those pieces of text from different posts into one post? Is there a trick to it? I can't seem to do it without a lot of difficulty.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

I will start a new thread on this, but will have to do so at a later time, no problem. Or maybe someone else will, but please do so in a separate thread.

SKennedy
10-10-2007, 04:27 PM
I agree with you on the advice thing, etc. However, and this irks me to no end....my stepfather is an absolutely horrific golfer, but if he gives you some advice or tells you what you are doing wrong, you can take it to the bank that he is right. Of course, it always makes those of us irritated who play a lot better than he does about his advice, but the worst of it is that he is correct!

SKennedy
10-10-2007, 04:37 PM
APA skill level 5 still has much to learn. I consistently beat a level 6 last night at 8-ball and 9-ball. I am not a 7, but he and another 6 were both surprised to learn that I'm not. I know I have a lot to learn and I would certainly take advice from a good player that I respect, but it is partially dependent upon how it was offered to me. Regardless, my biggest downfall is not enough time on the table.....playing once a week in league play is not going to advance your game. I was at my best when I played 2 to 3 hours every day (long time ago in a land far, far away....).

1Time
10-10-2007, 04:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> I agree with you on the advice thing, etc. However, and this irks me to no end....my stepfather is an absolutely horrific golfer, but if he gives you some advice or tells you what you are doing wrong, you can take it to the bank that he is right. Of course, it always makes those of us irritated who play a lot better than he does about his advice, but the worst of it is that he is correct! <hr /></blockquote>

That does seem quite rare that someone would be that bad at golf and yet so perceptive of what can improve another's game. The only thing that stopped me from being a golf instructor was I never had enough game. I know how to execute a wide variety of shots and even better can see what's wrong with other's games and tell them. But who's gonna pay to listen to a bogey golfer was my reasoning. As far as irking me, I would have had no problem receiving and making the best use of advise from for example an 89 year old shooting in the 100s. I'm just that teachable.

1Time
10-10-2007, 05:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> APA skill level 5 still has much to learn. <hr /></blockquote>

As I suspected.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr>
I consistently beat a level 6 last night at 8-ball and 9-ball. I am not a 7, but he and another 6 were both surprised to learn that I'm not. I know I have a lot to learn and I would certainly take advice from a good player that I respect, but it is partially dependent upon how it was offered to me. Regardless, my biggest downfall is not enough time on the table.....playing once a week in league play is not going to advance your game. I was at my best when I played 2 to 3 hours every day (long time ago in a land far, far away....). <hr /></blockquote>

And I suspect your relatively infrequent play is mainly responsible for you not consistently playing at a high level of play as you did recently. Thanks for the laugh I got from your long time ago reference.

bradb
10-10-2007, 05:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> I agree with you on the advice thing, etc. However, and this irks me to no end....my stepfather is an absolutely horrific golfer, but if he gives you some advice or tells you what you are doing wrong, you can take it to the bank that he is right. Of course, it always makes those of us irritated who play a lot better than he does about his advice, but the worst of it is that he is correct! <hr /></blockquote>

I think its a good idea to weigh all advice. We can determine if it has any validity if we have some level of competance ourselves to make a judgement.

The kind of advice I'm referring to is another player seeing something in our stroke or stance that is a flaw in fundementals. Once we reach a level of experience we all know the basics and how to execute them, but every once in a while we drift into a bad habits, its happens even to pros. This kind of advice is invaluable because unless we video tape our play we can't see what we're doing.

Last night I noticed one of our best players was missing in practice because he was'nt pausing before his forward stroke... he had completely forgotten this simple fundamental!... I mentioned it, he corrected it and the balls started dropping.

As far as volunteering advice to a inexperienced player in a pool hall, forget it. Once I tried to show a guy how to stand properly and he got all huffy about it. If some one asks I will tell them, other wise why go there?

wolfdancer
10-10-2007, 05:36 PM
I would call them obsessed, not paying enough attention to traffic, not living in the moment, etc...and would recommend they join Pool Anonymous, and begin their 12 step program.
I have a more casual approach to the game which allows me more time for other of life's enjoyments...like attending tournaments...
web page (http://picasaweb.google.com/yuchre/Pool?authkey=xQp3Sa1mVko)

1Time
10-10-2007, 05:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>
As far as volunteering advice to a inexperienced player in a pool hall, forget it. Once I tried to show a guy how to stand properly and he got all huffy about it. If some one asks I will tell them, other wise why go there? <hr /></blockquote>

Yes, it is not advisable to just volunteer advice. There are too many players who are not looking for help or are unteachable. However, far better than just not going there is to size up a player's willingness to learn, share, or instruct, and then act accordingly.

wolfdancer
10-10-2007, 05:47 PM
Did I mention the time I got caught in a hail storm, in the middle of May, playing at Paradise GC in/near Las Vegas?
The best Baseball Managers were not the best players...but rather, "students of the game" Frank Robinson being an exception, in the, not the best player, category.

HALHOULE
10-10-2007, 05:55 PM
I HAVE BEEN NOTING WHAT YOU FELLOWS ARE TALKING ABOUT, AND I LIKE WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.

HAL HOULE

484 623 4144

SKennedy
10-10-2007, 08:20 PM
You are exactly right as to my inconsistency. But hey, even when I'm off, it still ain't bad and I'm still having fun. I do play better when my opponent is better. As a consequence I've set my standards so high I don't think any of you guys are good enough for me to play!!!

I'm hopeful Scott Lee will swing thru the area as I've got a few players set up for some potential lessons. At least I'll finally get to meet one of you guys then....

HALHOULE
10-10-2007, 08:57 PM
SEND YOUR BUDDY TO ME IN PA. I WILL TRAIN HIM. NO CHARGE.

HALHOULE
10-10-2007, 10:41 PM
NO INSTRUCTOR HAS AN AIMING SYSTEM, EXCEPT ME. GOOD LUCK BRAD.

cushioncrawler
10-11-2007, 02:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HALHOULE:</font><hr> NO INSTRUCTOR HAS AN AIMING SYSTEM, EXCEPT ME. GOOD LUCK BRAD.<hr /></blockquote>Fast Larry???

Rich R.
10-11-2007, 07:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> Fast Larry??? <hr /></blockquote>
No, his name is Hal Houle and he is serious.

bradb
10-11-2007, 06:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote HALHOULE:</font><hr> NO INSTRUCTOR HAS AN AIMING SYSTEM, EXCEPT ME. GOOD LUCK BRAD.<hr /></blockquote>Fast Larry??? <hr /></blockquote>

Hello Max, long time no hear. Hows things in Aussie land?

Keep those cues bent,- Cheers, Brad

cushioncrawler
10-11-2007, 06:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr>Fast Larry??? <hr /></blockquote>No, his name is Hal Houle and he is serious. <hr /></blockquote>RR -- Yes, we all know HH. But i meant that FL had/haz an aiming system -- didnt FL (in disguize) start a big dust-up here a year ago (deleted in the end i think), and it woz all about aiming. madMac.

cushioncrawler
10-11-2007, 06:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>....Hello Max, long time no hear. Hows things in Aussie land? Keep those cues bent,- Cheers, Brad<hr /></blockquote>Got 2 new lenzes (new prescriptionz) in my old billiardz glasses (have been uzing my street glasses for the past 10 years) and now i can see great (12' table), but my billiardz iz no better (how kum??). I did the trick i learnt here re uzing ring-binder hole-reinforcements to find the needed pozzyz of the optical centers, and i got lenzes for intermediate distance (i am short sighted), so, all iz ready for 2008. I will revizit all my (bent) cues, and check out all of theze here aiming systems when my new joint and billiardz room are finished. I am just taking a break from sanding the particle board flooring, the tongue &amp; groove hardwood flooring (will be messmate-gum in the billiardz room) goze on next week. Might see u (and all) here one day -- there's a spare room for guests. madMac.

bradb
10-11-2007, 07:23 PM
<hr /></blockquote>Got 2 new lenzes (new prescriptionz) in my old billiardz glasses (have been uzing my street glasses for the past 10 years) and now i can see great (12' table), but my billiardz iz no better (how kum??). I did the trick i learnt here re uzing ring-binder hole-reinforcements to find the needed pozzyz of the optical centers, and i got lenzes for intermediate distance (i am short sighted), so, all iz ready for 2008. I will revizit all my (bent) cues, and check out all of theze here aiming systems when my new joint and billiardz room are finished. I am just taking a break from sanding the particle board flooring, the tongue &amp; groove hardwood flooring (will be messmate-gum in the billiardz room) goze on next week. Might see u (and all) here one day -- there's a spare room for guests. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

Looks like we're in the same time warp. I just finished my pool room and added birch flooring. I'll post a pix when I get time. When your room is finished i would love to see it.

Also just got new glasses... tri-focals, I'm dizzy half the time, but has'nt effected my pool, don't need to see any way its all instinct, just rely on the stroke.

Good to see you're still in fine form, I gotta nice guest room here to so the offer goes both ways. Over and out. Brad

/ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rich R.
10-11-2007, 07:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> RR -- Yes, we all know HH. But i meant that FL had/haz an aiming system -- didnt FL (in disguize) start a big dust-up here a year ago (deleted in the end i think), and it woz all about aiming. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>
Sorry I misunderstood.

FL claimed to have all of the magic necessary to play pool. He may have claimed to have an aiming system too, but, after reading a number of his posts, on several forums, I stayed clear of any thread he was involved in.

I can tell you, after seeing FL play in a pro 9-ball tournament, I wouldn't believe a word he typed.

Cornerman
10-12-2007, 10:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>
The best Baseball Managers were not the best players...but rather, "students of the game" Frank Robinson being an exception, in the, not the best player, category.
<hr /></blockquote>Not to really disagree, but the best managers were professional baseball players to begin with. Very rare is that not the case. And Joe Torre was a former MVP, so add him to the group of top players that became managers.

Same with golf. The best golf teachers are still high level players. Not touring professionals necessary, but not C players either.

I think it's important that an instructor has the basics down.

Fred

bsmutz
10-12-2007, 11:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr>Fast Larry??? <hr /></blockquote>No, his name is Hal Houle and he is serious. <hr /></blockquote>RR -- Yes, we all know HH. But i meant that FL had/haz an aiming system -- didnt FL (in disguize) start a big dust-up here a year ago (deleted in the end i think), and it woz all about aiming. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>
Actually, that was drivermaker whose recurring gripe was that "everyone" uses some type of aiming system and that anyone that says they play by feel is wrong.

1Time
10-12-2007, 11:38 AM
So, why not learn to play better pool?

Some will not seek out instruction from a pro instructor and instead take instruction from a friend or relative. Others will prefer to seek out instruction from a pro instructor.

Either way, it takes much less knowledge and experience to instruct a beginner than a pro. So, as far as what someone needs to know, whether it's less than all the basics, all the basics, or more, and what level of play is needed to be able to instruct depends on what's being instructed and to whom. Of course one would expect a pro instructor to have the basics down.

Jager85
10-12-2007, 11:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> I am willing to learn pool from practically anyone. If you've got something to show me, I'm ready to learn. So what is it about so many players that keeps them from wanting to learn how to play better pool?

I beat my pool buddy tonight on a bar box 17 wins to his 10 in 8-ball, his favorite game. Mine is 9-ball and I'm sure I would thrash him. So I'm just banging balls around for fun and later learn he's keeping track of how many games each of us have won. So anyway I saw many shortcomings in his game that I could show him how to develop that I'm sure would make his game much better. The guy's a straight shooter with 9 years of experience and tons of interest in pool. He's moving out of state next week so I offered to show him some things, if interested, but he just smoothed over my offer. All I can think is "what a waste". <hr /></blockquote>

I agree and I am the same way. I will listen to any advice and test it. When my wife first started APA I was only 19 and couldn't join yet. I did go to league with her a couple of times though if the bar did not care. Anyway while I was there I tried giving some pointers to her teammates after a missed shot or a bad leave, and my wife kept saying, "Quit Sharkin." I said I am not sharkin I'm giving advice. Shes like well they know how to play and are good. I said whatever and brushed it off, but I have met many others in bars the same way. They take offense to advice.

1Time
10-12-2007, 12:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr>
Actually, that was drivermaker whose recurring gripe was that "everyone" uses some type of aiming system and that anyone that says they play by feel is wrong. <hr /></blockquote>

I don't know who said what, but I do agree that everyone uses some type of aiming system, including those who say they don't and play by feel. Such a system may not be written down somewhere and it may even be unique or proprietary. My aiming system has a "play by feel" component to it, however the main component common to everyone's aiming system is imagination, which is used to visualize the shot.

Deeman3
10-12-2007, 12:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>
Either way, it takes much less knowledge and experience to instruct a beginner than a pro. So, as far as what someone needs to know, whether it's less than all the basics, all the basics, or more, and what level of play is needed to be able to instruct depends on what's being instructed and to whom. Of course one would expect a pro instructor to have the basics down. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> I somewhat agree with you on this, assuming that the "instructor" actually has the basics down and can properly observe and judge the response of the student. I actually believe that early instruction is potentially the most important you receive as properly established fundamentals will serve you forever and bad habits will not be in your game from the get go. The really gifted teachers (I don't claim to be one) can fashion their feedback so a prepared student can learn. Those are mostly the guys and gals who make a living as instructors. Having observed the early instruction in the UK of beginning snooker players, the process is much more brutal than the typical pool instruction I have witnessed and I think that is much of the reason for such consistent players in that sport. The German pool instruction scene is very similar. </font color>

wolfdancer
10-12-2007, 12:49 PM
Fred, not to disagree with you either...I took it as a given that they were all pro players, before managing, but not super stars.
Dick Williams and Casey Stengel were what I has in mind...and I forgot about Joe Torre...how could i forget about a member of my favorite team, the Milwaukee Braves?
Ted Williams probably knew more about hitting then any player of his day...His book "The Science of Hitting" has stood the test of time. He had limited success though as a hitting instructor, and best known for trying to help a young "Yas" But when you think of a famous hitting coach..Charlie Yau would come to mind before Ted.
I only brought the point up, because a player who has natural talent, may not be able to explain how he does things as well as someone who had to work hard to accomplish the same goal.

SKennedy
10-12-2007, 01:10 PM
During league or match play is not really the right time to be providing advice, unless you are a team captain and giving general advice like slow down, relax, etc. Maybe her teammates would be more receptive at another time.

Cornerman
10-12-2007, 01:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>
Ted Williams probably knew more about hitting then any player of his day...His book "The Science of Hitting" has stood the test of time. He had limited success though as a hitting instructor, and best known for trying to help a young "Yas" But when you think of a famous hitting coach..Charlie Yau would come to mind before Ted. <hr /></blockquote>

Yaz.

Charlie Lau.

The greatest strengths of a teacher/coach is to be able to observe, understand what he sees, make an appropriate assessment, communicate his findings, and take a positive corrective action. I don't know which trait is the most important.


Fred

SKennedy
10-12-2007, 01:34 PM
I worked with my son for several years on pitching. When he was about 12, I set him up for lessons with a "professional." My son later went much further pitching baseballs than this guy ever did, but this guy (Tony) was a great teacher. One of the first things he did was show my son how to throw a curve ball, when I had refused to show my son as I did not want him throwing a curve. Tony explained to me that my son would end up throwing a curve ball anyway and asked if I wanted him to learn the correct way, or throw one based upon how his friends tell him or let him experiment. So, Tony showed him the right way so that my son's arm would not be incorrectly stressed. But, the big thing that amazed me was Tony's ability to instantly see the problem areas my son had, which I also could see but it took me a long time to do so, and how quickly he changed my son's bad habits and how quickly he related to my son. Very effective. He got through to my son and taught him more in 30 minutes than it would have taken me a year to do.
A good instuctor has to know fundamentals, know his student, know how to communicate, and how to effectively get the student to perform. Someone mentioned about baseball coaches not being always the best....I don't think he meant compared to the general population, but was implying they were usually not the "best of the best"...all pro MVPs. Regardless, if I'm going to pay someone for some serious instruction time, rest assured I expect the instructor to know more than I do, and expect him to help me provided I am "coachable." A friend once tried to correct my golf swing. He was correct in what he was telling me and trying to get me to do. However, it felt too weird, would take too much effort on my part to correct at my age, and I don't play that much....so I went back to my old ways....and still wonder why I can't break 90.

1Time
10-12-2007, 02:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>
I somewhat agree with you on this, assuming that the "instructor" actually has the basics down and can properly observe and judge the response of the student. <hr /></blockquote>

Having the basics down and being able to properly observe and judge the response of the student is perfect IF instructing the basics or less. However, my point was what one needs to know and what one's level of play needs to be in order to instruct, depends on what is being instructed and to whom. If the basics are to be instructed, the instructor better have a grip on the basics. Likewise, if an inexperienced player is going to instruct another inexperienced player on how to chalk a cue's tip, he or she should at least have this knowledge and experience. Likewise, if one is going to instruct a pro, the prerequisite should be the knowledge, experience, and skill to do so. And this is not to say the instructor needs to be able to play as well as the student.

One need not be a pro instructor in order to help a student play better. For example, a less experienced player can successfully instruct another less experienced player. "Hold the cue stick like this." "Chalk the cue tip like this." Sure, a more experienced player / instructor very likely would provide better instruction. However, if the goal was to provide instruction that helped the other player improve their play and it did, then that instruction was successful. However, if the goal was to provide instruction consistent with the content and depth a pro instructor could provide when instructing a pro player, then that less experienced player's instruction is sure to fall short.

1Time
10-12-2007, 02:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> But, the big thing that amazed me was Tony's ability to instantly see the problem areas my son had, which I also could see but it took me a long time to do so, and how quickly he changed my son's bad habits and how quickly he related to my son. Very effective. He got through to my son and taught him more in 30 minutes than it would have taken me a year to do. <hr /></blockquote>

This example typifies the value of receiving great instruction.

So, why not learn to play better pool? Perhaps most don't realize what a difference great instruction can make.

wolfdancer
10-12-2007, 05:04 PM
Yaz...my mistake...the Boston sports writers also tried to call him "young Yeasty" for a short time
Besides winning the triple crown, Yaz probably had the greatest final month ever in Baseball, as the BoSox, won out over the Lions and White Sox, and Twins. He seemed to be involved every day with the key hit, and Jim Lonborg, I think went undefeated, in that same time frame.
But they had the misfortune of having to face Bob Gibson, three times in the series.....game, set, and match

Vapros
10-12-2007, 05:11 PM
Lemme be the first: Lions?!

wolfdancer
10-12-2007, 05:21 PM
Didn't Denny McLain QB for the Lions?
OK, you got me...another senior moment. I'm lucky I can remember that they played baseball back then, let alone any team names.

cushioncrawler
10-12-2007, 05:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.[quote=cushioncrawler:</font><hr>Fast Larry???<hr /></blockquote>No, his name is Hal Houle and he is serious.<hr /></blockquote>RR -- Yes, we all know HH. But i meant that FL had/haz an aiming system -- didnt FL (in disguize) start a big dust-up here a year ago (deleted in the end i think), and it woz all about aiming. madMac.<hr /></blockquote>Actually, that was drivermaker whose recurring gripe was that "everyone" uses some type of aiming system and that anyone that says they play by feel is wrong.<hr /></blockquote>Searching back i saw a lot of good threads etc by fred and bsmutz and mybreak etc re aim and feel. But i reckon that there are 2 sorts of "feel". There iz the feel that some uze to judge the needed contact?? (or aim??) on the OB (but mybreak?? sez that this feel duznt exist, at least not on its own, ie that it needz an aiming system too).

Then there iz the feel that some uze to deliver the qball to the wanted contact or to the wanted ghost-ball. I suppoze that most players sight along the centerline of the cue. But i can play a whole game by just feeling the qball onto the OB. I dont really try to aim for my qtip to hit the qball dead center (or anything). I dont really try to be aware of where the cue iz pointing (or where it iz at all). Its a bit like throwing a stone. I think that i wrote this stuff in that deleted thread back thereawayz.

This might be what Walter Lindrum woz referring to when he said that the cue shood be (feel) like an extension of the arm/hand, ie that a player shoodnt be "cue-conscious". madMac.

bradb
10-13-2007, 10:34 AM
madMac.[<hr /></blockquote>Searching back i saw a lot of good threads etc by fred and bsmutz and mybreak etc re aim and feel. But i reckon that there are 2 sorts of "feel". There iz the feel that some uze to judge the needed contact?? (or aim??) on the OB (but mybreak?? sez that this feel duznt exist, at least not on its own, ie that it needz an aiming system too).

Then there iz the feel that some uze to deliver the qball to the wanted contact or to the wanted ghost-ball. I suppoze that most players sight along the centerline of the cue. But i can play a whole game by just feeling the qball onto the OB. I dont really try to aim for my qtip to hit the qball dead center (or anything). I dont really try to be aware of where the cue iz pointing (or where it iz at all). Its a bit like throwing a stone. I think that i wrote this stuff in that deleted thread back thereawayz.

This might be what Walter Lindrum woz referring to when he said that the cue shood be (feel) like an extension of the arm/hand, ie that a player shoodnt be "cue-conscious". madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

There's a pro snooker player here named Jim Bear, (retired now) Jim has a penchant for being rather stingy with his advice. Someone once asked him how to sight the ball and he said "hit it where it will go!"

Somehow theres a pearl of wisdom in there. -brad

9baller
10-14-2007, 04:45 AM
like what was said,alot of people get offened if you offer them help like you were insulting them or something.
i myself do not understand why.i would love to have a very good player as a buddy that can teach me.i would except all advice they offer me,try it and see what works best for me.it would be great to have a buddy like you cause the only ones i get to play with now dont really know anything about pool so i have to teach them,not saying i,mm great,but just better then they are.i would love a chance to play some hardcore players to both learn and to test my actual playing skill level,and right now i cant really afford a trainer or even decent training vidieos for that matter /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Scott Lee
10-14-2007, 11:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HALHOULE:</font><hr> NO INSTRUCTOR HAS AN AIMING SYSTEM, EXCEPT ME. <hr /></blockquote>

Wow Hal...That's pretty obstinate, even for you. The Supplemental Aiming Method we teach has some of it's origins with you. We've taught it successfully to several hundred poolplayers. I would definitely argue that you're not the only instructor with an "aiming system".

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
10-14-2007, 11:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr>I'm hopeful Scott Lee will swing thru the area as I've got a few players set up for some potential lessons. At least I'll finally get to meet one of you guys then.... <hr /></blockquote>

I am making plans to be in your area in about a month from now. I'll be in touch soon, to set exact dates and times for you and your friends.

Scott Lee

bradb
10-14-2007, 01:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9baller:</font><hr> like what was said,alot of people get offened if you offer them help like you were insulting them or something.
i myself do not understand why.i would love to have a very good player as a buddy that can teach me.i would except all advice they offer me,try it and see what works best for me.it would be great to have a buddy like you cause the only ones i get to play with now dont really know anything about pool so i have to teach them,not saying i,mm great,but just better then they are.i would love a chance to play some hardcore players to both learn and to test my actual playing skill level,and right now i cant really afford a trainer or even decent training vidieos for that matter /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I hear ya!....

I only offer advice to players i have played for a while and have got to know. I ask my fellow league players for advice on my play all the time. One is an ex pro so I'm very lucky.

Here is what I did to advance my game and maybe it could help you.

When I first started I floundered around for several years like most. Then after I reached a certain skill level I realized it was a quantum leap for me to advance further. The pool hall where I was playing offered me no opportunity to get there.

So I asked around for the top pool hall in town..the place where the best players were!

I went in that place with the attitude that I was there to learn... not to try and impress. Over time I got to know a lot of the players and made friends. I stayed away from the unsavory types and played only the serious players.

I was a fish for a while and at first I got big spots but as I learned the spots came down. I found that even the best might play you for low stakes or even just for table pay. I considered it my training costs. (Who's the fish?)

Just watching them play...how they grip the cue, their stance... and most important their stroke, taught me volumes. I learned to pick up pool lingo and what it meant as far as correct play.

One day a player was watching me practice. After a while he came up and said, "you're twisting your wrist!" he showed me what I was doing and it was a revelation for me. All those years I had been shooting with a flaw. I advanced up to a whole new level with that one simple observation. And my spot came way down!

I still go back to my old pool hall from time to time, you can never get enough practice.

-Good luck out there. -brad /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

SKennedy
10-14-2007, 03:22 PM
Good points.....and I sometimes do the wrist thing too!

1Time
10-14-2007, 03:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> Just watching them play...how they grip the cue, their stance... and most important their stroke, taught me volumes. <hr /></blockquote>

This is what I keep recommending. It's good to see someone else share the value of this experience.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>All those years I had been shooting with a flaw. I advanced up to a whole new level with that one simple observation. <hr /></blockquote>

This demonstrates the value of getting instruction early on.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>I still go back to my old pool hall from time to time, you can never get enough practice.<hr /></blockquote>

Yes one can get enough practice, and one should be able to conclude practice with a sense of accomplishment and readiness for competition. Too much or the wrong kind of practice can degrade one's ability to perform well in competition.

cushioncrawler
10-14-2007, 06:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>...One day a player was watching me practice. After a while he came up and said, "you're twisting your wrist!" he showed me what I was doing and it was a revelation for me. All those years I had been shooting with a flaw. I advanced up to a whole new level with that one simple observation. And my spot came way down!...<hr /></blockquote>I noticed that Shandilya turns hiz wrist (hand) under (the butt) intentionally, az he hits (ie a bit before contact), and he haz won Indian and World titles at both billiards and snooker. I will give it a go in 2008, might help me. Iz this "turning under" what u meen when u say "twist"?? madMac.

bradb
10-15-2007, 10:56 AM
<hr /></blockquote>I noticed that Shandilya turns hiz wrist (hand) under (the butt) intentionally, az he hits (ie a bit before contact), and he haz won Indian and World titles at both billiards and snooker. I will give it a go in 2008, might help me. Iz this "turning under" what u meen when u say "twist"?? madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

Max, it looks like a twist but actually It is more of a bend. The result was my hand was bent in toward my body at the end of the stroke. This would result in the cue rotating slightly. I was compensating my sighting to over come it, but It was really effecting my aim on power shots which were baffling to me on why I was going so wide.

Trying to solve it was really a struggle. It finally became clear to me that I was holding the cue to tight. I relaxed my fingers and gripped mostly with thumb and index finger. On the back swing the four back fingers barely touch the cue, on the follow through they touch but not tighten. This lets the cue sort of rock back and forth and lets my hand stay vertical to my arm through the stroke.

This works for me, other players have variations of this. (Dennis Taylor said he won the world championship by letting the cue lay in his hand. That sounds a little to loose to me.)

I still practice this. (old habits die hard!)

SKennedy
10-15-2007, 12:26 PM
I grip loosely but primarily with thumb and middle finger. Most players I know seem to use the index finger. When I first started playing I used the middle finger and that's just what I feel comfortable with and have never experimented with the grip.

Deeman3
10-15-2007, 01:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> I grip loosely but primarily with thumb and middle finger. Most players I know seem to use the index finger. When I first started playing I used the middle finger and that's just what I feel comfortable with and have never experimented with the grip. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> For what little it is worth, I don't actually "grip" my cue. I let it rest in the crevice created by the thumb and fingers. I might actually grip it on a break or hard draw but try consciencously not to.</font color>

SKennedy
10-15-2007, 01:54 PM
I do the same...except thumb and middle finger. I really don't "grip" it either....unless my game is off and I'm hitting too hard and playing "cowboy" pool.

Qtec
10-15-2007, 07:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>
The best Baseball Managers were not the best players...but rather, "students of the game" Frank Robinson being an exception, in the, not the best player, category.
<hr /></blockquote>Not to really disagree, but the best managers were professional baseball players to begin with. Very rare is that not the case. And Joe Torre was a former MVP, so add him to the group of top players that became managers.

Same with golf. The best golf teachers are still high level players. Not touring professionals necessary, but not C players either.

I think it's important that an instructor has the basics down.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Sure but its the system that dictates who can coach and who can't!The top spots are reserved for ex-players, its called job protection.

Over here you need to have a golf handicap of 5 or lower before you can teach golf! It basically ensures a living for golfers who weren't good enough to compete with the best.
OTOH, I have seen great snooker players who were absolutely hopeless trying to teach a beginner.

Q

cushioncrawler
10-15-2007, 07:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>....Max, it looks like a twist but actually It is more of a bend. The result was my hand was bent in toward my body at the end of the stroke. This would result in the cue rotating slightly. I was compensating my sighting to over come it, but It was really effecting my aim on power shots which were baffling to me on why I was going so wide. Trying to solve it was really a struggle. It finally became clear to me that I was holding the cue to tight. I relaxed my fingers and gripped mostly with thumb and index finger. On the back swing the four back fingers barely touch the cue, on the follow through they touch but not tighten. This lets the cue sort of rock back and forth and lets my hand stay vertical to my arm through the stroke. This works for me, other players have variations of this. (Dennis Taylor said he won the world championship by letting the cue lay in his hand. That sounds a little to loose to me.) I still practice this. (old habits die hard!)<hr /></blockquote>A really loose grip iz good. Me, at prezent, i hold the cue with just my middle finger -- and i press down really hard with the bit of palm (webbing) between the thumb and first finger -- the thumb and first finger just hang -- it sort of pushes the qtip down into my vee bridge (ie an open bridge) -- this tendz to automatically pull the elbow closer to vertical over the cue (i tend to stick my elbow out).

Re your wrist-twist -- i guess that its effekt dependz on whether u twist (bend actually) before u contact the qball, or during contact (Shandilya i think), or after contact.

My old billiardz mate used to tell me that he twists hiz wrist to get more action when uzing sidespin and skrew at softish short-range nursery-cannonz.

Speaking about a loose grip -- i accasionally uze a loose bridge. Here u hold the cue in a full grip, just hard enuff to be able to hold the cue allmost off the bridge, ie with much less than half of the normal cue wt on the bridge -- and u do the backswing and forwardswing with the cue allmost floating in midair. Might help some. madMac.

bradb
10-18-2007, 01:18 PM
<hr /></blockquote>A really loose grip iz good. Me, at prezent, i hold the cue with just my middle finger -- and i press down really hard with the bit of palm (webbing) between the thumb and first finger -- the thumb and first finger just hang -- it sort of pushes the qtip down into my vee bridge (ie an open bridge) -- this tendz to automatically pull the elbow closer to vertical over the cue (i tend to stick my elbow out).

Re your wrist-twist -- i guess that its effekt dependz on whether u twist (bend actually) before u contact the qball, or during contact (Shandilya i think), or after contact.

My old billiardz mate used to tell me that he twists hiz wrist to get more action when uzing sidespin and skrew at softish short-range nursery-cannonz.

Speaking about a loose grip -- i accasionally uze a loose bridge. Here u hold the cue in a full grip, just hard enuff to be able to hold the cue allmost off the bridge, ie with much less than half of the normal cue wt on the bridge -- and u do the backswing and forwardswing with the cue allmost floating in midair. Might help some. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

I tried the vee grip you mentioned with the inside thumb/forefinger pressing against the cue only and was able to pot some balls very nicely. This certainly eliminates any unwanted movement in other parts of the hand. I liked it for long pots but felt uncomfortable with it on close in touch shots. Here I switched back to my own grip which is really very similar to the loose bridge you defined.

My Thorburn book tells me to pick up the cue from the table with just the enough grip to lift it. I played with that grip for a while then abandoned it for my current one. With Thorburn's grip I still found it possible to turn/bend my wrist.

My old "bend the wrist" thing started in the follow through as the cue came forward. Its very slight, and i wonder how many players do this, as its hard to spot.

Doing it intentionally would present some pretty wild cue hits. In watching some of the trick shot artist I noticed some wierd cue action.

1Time
10-18-2007, 01:31 PM
Of the few grips I use, the one thing in common is how each helps the cue stick go back and forth like a pendulum, using the cue's weight to help keep it "in the groove" and not out of alignment. It's easier to get the benefit of this action by not overpowering the weight of the cue in one's grip. There are various ways to do this, a few more common. I often change grips by habit and depending on what I've found best for a particular kind of shot. I've seen straight shooters grip a cue like a baseball bat though. I say try different ways and find whatever works best.

cushioncrawler
10-18-2007, 04:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>...I tried the vee grip you mentioned with the inside thumb/forefinger pressing against the cue only and was able to pot some balls very nicely. This certainly eliminates any unwanted movement in other parts of the hand. I liked it for long pots but felt uncomfortable with it on close in touch shots. Here I switched back to my own grip which is really very similar to the loose bridge you defined. My Thorburn book tells me to pick up the cue from the table with just the enough grip to lift it. I played with that grip for a while then abandoned it for my current one. With Thorburn's grip I still found it possible to turn/bend my wrist. My old "bend the wrist" thing started in the follow through as the cue came forward. Its very slight, and i wonder how many players do this, as its hard to spot. Doing it intentionally would present some pretty wild cue hits. In watching some of the trick shot artist I noticed some wierd cue action.<hr /></blockquote>Yeah -- It soundz like my grip iz like Deeman'z i think (hiz posting iz back a bit). By pressing the noze of the cue down into the bridge my (stroke) muscles dont havta go from zero to ??? during the backswing &amp; forewardswing, and my grip muscles neither. madMac.

cushioncrawler
10-18-2007, 04:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>Of the few grips I use, the one thing in common is how each helps the cue stick go back and forth like a pendulum, using the cue's weight to help keep it "in the groove" and not out of alignment. It's easier to get the benefit of this action by not overpowering the weight of the cue in one's grip. There are various ways to do this, a few more common. I often change grips by habit and depending on what I've found best for a particular kind of shot. I've seen straight shooters grip a cue like a baseball bat though. I say try different ways and find whatever works best.<hr /></blockquote>Natural -- U have reminded me of something(s) -- i like your description re ""using the cue's weight to help keep it "in the groove" and not out of alignment"". I now uze a 21oz (ie heavy by billiardz standardz) cue mainly koz i agree that the cue'z mass helps keep it from wobbling around -- i have uzed 28oz (all season) and even 34oz (briefly).

But this iznt what i mainly wanted to say. U reminded me that one day i will havta make a heavy wristlette of some sort, say 16oz, for my cue-hand (it could be a velcroe wrap). Then i can uze a say 18oz cue, but have a total of 34oz "holding" my stroke "in the groove". madMac.

Deeman3
10-18-2007, 04:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> U reminded me that one day i will havta make a heavy wristlette of some sort, say 16oz, for my cue-hand (it could be a velcroe wrap). Then i can uze a say 18oz cue, but have a total of 34oz "holding" my stroke "in the groove". madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Cushioncrawler:

This is what our Earl Strickland has been doing, adding weight with a velcro contraption. I don't know if it has really helped him but he still uses it to my knowledge. </font color>

1Time
10-18-2007, 05:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> But this iznt what i mainly wanted to say. U reminded me that one day i will havta make a heavy wristlette of some sort, say 16oz, for my cue-hand (it could be a velcroe wrap). Then i can uze a say 18oz cue, but have a total of 34oz "holding" my stroke "in the groove". madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

While it's easy to see the reasoning behind the extra weight on the wrist, I can see 3 drawbacks to it.
1. It will wear you down faster.
2. It will negatively affect your touch on softer shots.
3. It will not help the groove thing that much by also switching to a lighter cue. The weight needs to be at as close to the bottom of the pendulum as possible (the cue stick) in order for the groove thing to work the best.

What seems to keep the cue in the groove best are the horizontally aligned and freely pivoting contacts on the hand or fingers with the cue. An appropriate weight of cue coupled with a well functioning grip handles this and most shots quite nicely. Shooting with a heavier cue seems more advisable than weighting down the wrist. And, shooting with a very heavy cue seems more advisable for someone with a baseball style grip on the cue or else someone with a more gorilla than man type of physique.

cushioncrawler
10-18-2007, 05:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr>U reminded me that one day i will havta make a heavy wristlette of some sort, say 16oz, for my cue-hand (it could be a velcroe wrap). Then i can uze a say 18oz cue, but have a total of 34oz "holding" my stroke "in the groove". madMac.<hr /></blockquote><font color="blue"> Cushioncrawler: This is what our Earl Strickland has been doing, adding weight with a velcro contraption. I don't know if it has really helped him but he still uses it to my knowledge.</font color><hr /></blockquote>Dee -- Yes i now recall that i did see mention of Earl uzing this. I will definitely look into all of this in 2008. madMac.

cushioncrawler
10-18-2007, 05:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>...While it's easy to see the reasoning behind the extra weight on the wrist, I can see 3 drawbacks to it.
1. It will wear you down faster.
2. It will negatively affect your touch on softer shots.
3. It will not help the groove thing that much by also switching to a lighter cue. The weight needs to be at as close to the bottom of the pendulum as possible (the cue stick) in order for the groove thing to work the best. What seems to keep the cue in the groove best are the horizontally aligned and freely pivoting contacts on the hand or fingers with the cue. An appropriate weight of cue coupled with a well functioning grip handles this and most shots quite nicely. Shooting with a heavier cue seems more advisable than weighting down the wrist. And, shooting with a very heavy cue seems more advisable for someone with a baseball style grip on the cue or else someone with a more gorilla than man type of physique.<hr /></blockquote>I'm betting that uzing the velcro wrist-band will help soft touch (i will find out in 2008). And i have seen many (mainly old) players with the shakes and tremors -- a wrist-wt would benefit them i reckon. madMac.

1Time
10-18-2007, 05:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> And i have seen many (mainly old) players with the shakes and tremors -- a wrist-wt would benefit them i reckon. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

Right, hadn't thought of that. Extra weight should help nicely to steady everything and make it work.