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Gayle in MD
10-12-2007, 12:00 PM
<font color="red">You may go to the link to sign up to fight for our great country. This patriotic op-ed is by Naomi Wolf, and we all must join, stand and fight for our country. </font color>

I wish people would stop breaking into tears when they talk to me these days.

I am traveling across the country at the moment -- Colorado to California -- speaking to groups of Americans from all walks of life about the assault on liberty and the 10 steps now underway in America to a violently closed society.

The good news is that Americans are already awake: I thought there would be resistance to or disbelief at this message of gathering darkness -- but I am finding crowds of people who don't need me to tell them to worry; they are already scared, already alert to the danger and entirely prepared to hear what the big picture might look like. To my great relief, Americans are smart and brave and they are unflinching in their readiness to hear the worst and take action. And they love their country.

But I can't stand the stories I am hearing. I can't stand to open my email these days. And wherever I go, it seems, at least once a day, someone very strong starts to cry while they are speaking.

In Boulder, two days ago, a rosy-cheeked thirtysomething mother of two small children, in soft yoga velours, started to tear up when she said to me: "I want to take action but I am so scared. I look at my kids and I am scared. How do you deal with fear? Is it safer for them if I act or stay quiet? I don't want to get on a list." In D.C., before that, a beefy, handsome civil servant, a government department head -- probably a Republican -- confides in a lowered voice that he is scared to sign the new ID requirement for all government employees, that exposes all his most personal information to the State -- but he is scared not to sign it: "If I don't, I lose my job, my house. It's like the German National ID card," he said quietly. This morning in Denver I talked for almost an hour to a brave, much-decorated high-level military man who is not only on the watch list for his criticism of the administration -- his family is now on the list. His elderly mother is on the list. His teenage son is on the list. He has flown many dangerous combat missions over the course of his military career, but his voice cracks when he talks about the possibility that he is exposing his children to harassment.

Jim Spencer, a former columnist for the Denver Post who has been critical of the Bush administration, told me today that I could use his name: he is on the watch list. An attorney contacts me to say that she told her colleagues at the Justice Department not to torture a detainee; she says she then faced a criminal investigation, a professional referral, saw her emails deleted -- and now she is on the watch list. I was told last night that a leader of Code Pink, the anti-war women's action group, was refused entry to Canada. I hear from a tech guy who works for the airlines -- again, probably a Republican -- that once you are on the list you never get off. Someone else says that his friend opened his luggage to find a letter from the TSA saying that they did not appreciate his reading material. Before I go into the security lines, I find myself editing my possessions. In New York's LaGuardia, I reluctantly found myself putting a hardcover copy of Tara McKelvey's excellent Monstering, an expose of CIA interrogation practices, in a garbage can before I get in the security line; it is based on classified information. This morning at my hotel, before going to the sirport, I threw away a very nice black T-shirt that said "We Will Not be Silenced" -- with an Arabic translation -- that someone had given me, along with a copy of poems written by detainees at Guantanamo.

In my America we are not scared to get in line at the airport. In my America, we will not be silenced.

More times than I can count, courageous and confident men who are telling me about speaking up, but who are risking what they see as the possible loss of job, home or the ability to pay for grown kids' schooling, start to choke up. Yesterday a woman in one gathering started to cry simply while talking about the degradation of her beloved country.

And always the questions: what do we do?

It is clear from this inundation of personal stories of abuse and retribution against ordinary Americans that a network of criminal behavior and intention is catching up more and more mainstream citizens in its grasp. It is clear that this is not democracy as usual -- or even the corruption of democracy as usual. It is clear that we will need more drastic action than emails to Congress.

The people I am hearing from are conservatives and independents as well as progressives. The cardinal rule of a closing or closed society is that your alignment with the regime offers no protection; in a true police state no one is safe.

I read the news in a state of something like walking shock: seven soldiers wrote op-eds critical of the war -- in The New York Times; three are dead, one shot in the head. A female soldier who was about to become a whistleblower, possibly about abuses involving taxpayers' money: shot in the head. Pat Tillman, who was contemplating coming forward in a critique of the war: shot in the head. Donald Vance, a contractor himself, who blew the whistle on irregularities involving arms sales in Iraq -- taken hostage FROM the U.S. Embassy BY U.S. soldiers and kept without recourse to a lawyer in a U.S. held-prison, abused and terrified for weeks -- and scared to talk once he got home. Another whistleblower in Iraq, as reported in Vanity Fair: held in a trailer all night by armed contractors before being ejected from the country.

Last week contractors, immune from the rule of law, butchered 17 Iraqi civilians in cold blood. Congress mildly objected -- and contractors today butcher two more innocent civilian Iraqi ladies -- in cold blood.

It is clear yet that violent retribution, torture or maybe worse, seems to go right up this chain of command? Is it clear yet that these people are capable of anything? Is it obvious yet that criminals are at the helm of the nation and need to be not only ousted but held accountable for their crimes?

Is it treason yet?

This is an open invitation to honorable patriots on the Right and in the center to join this movement to restore the rule of law and confront this horror: this is not conservatism, it is a series of crimes against the nation and against the very essence of America. Join us, we need you.

This movement must transcend partisan lines. The power of individual conscience is profound when people start to wake up.

Former Deputy Attorney General James Comey said No: he told colleague that they would be ashamed when the world learned about the Administration's warrantless wiretapping. A judge today ruled that the U.S. can't just ship prisoners out of Guantanamo to be tortured at will -- she said No. The Center for Constitutional Rights is about to file a civil lawsuit -- against Blackwater: they are saying No.

In Germany, according to historian Richard Evans, in 1931-1932, if enough Germans of conscience had begun to say No -- history would have had an entirely diferent outcome.

If we go any further down this road the tears will be those of conservatives as well as progressives. They will be American tears.

The time for weeping has to stop; the time for confronting must begin.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/american-tears_b_68141.html

A link is provided within Ms. Wolf's op-ed if you go to the link provided.

Gayle in Md,

wolfdancer
10-12-2007, 12:25 PM
Germans didn't lose their civil liberties, their right to dissent, overnite....The Germans blamed everything on the Jews, and no one objected as their rights were removed, thinking it would stop there. Today, any American that objects is a "Jew"...and these little quasi-Nazi groups like
the AZB group are unwittingly, helping the cause...
It beginning to sound like to save our freedoms, they will have to abuse those freedoms
to save us from terrorism, they will have to become terrorists
leading up to...to save our right to vote, they will have to suspend free elections...until...the crisis is resolved.

Gayle in MD
10-12-2007, 12:30 PM
Did you say, sound like /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Here's another link with some Reaganomic/Bushonomic results.

BTW, how does one debate with those who begin their premise with fake facts? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hale-stewart/the-economic-lies-from-th_b_67786.html

Deeman3
10-12-2007, 12:49 PM
No, we don't have to give up our freedoms. In fact, we are more free than we have ever bene in our history. If you harken back for the good old days when we were free, you may ignore the endless wiretapping done in the 1950 and 1960's as well as the McCarty era hearings, the internment of Japanese Americans, J.Edgar Hoover's spying on everyone and much the same throughout our history. 25 years ago the ACLU never filed on the cases they do routinly now even though they happened every day. I don't even say we should not be more free now than in the past but to act likewe are less free now is not accurate. The same and worse abuses have happened in all administrations, with the exception of Carter and that was only because the entire government did not work for those four years.

The writer is correct, the whining has reached a new level but would have dies down when the other party takes over does the same, except it is now considered fair game for the loyal (Yes, right!) opposition.

Do any of you know or rememebr what we allowed the government to do 30 and 40 years ago in the name of preserving our safety? There is no comparison to today. Now the left is calling Bush Hitler and may be agreeing with Iran that the genocide of 6 millions Jews never happened as they make these foolish and unfair comparisons.

What would we have if, for instance carter was now in office. You might say, we would never have gone to war. Right and we'd still have 50 plus hostages in Iran so he could still be negoiating rather than let Reagan bail him out.

Gayle in MD
10-12-2007, 01:17 PM
May I ask, where do you get the information that Reagan had anything to do with the release of the hostages. Please provide government documentation for that statement.

Also, The FISA laws were created to remove the very privacy breaches of the past which you mention. It happened after another Republican obstructed justice, and abused his power, Richard Nixon, for whom Fred Thompson became a mole in the Senate Hearings on Impeachment, and investigations of the Watergate scandal.

[ QUOTE ]
Do any of you know or rememebr what we allowed the government to do 30 and 40 years ago in the name of preserving our safety? <font color="red">WE? Why does the right think that justifying present illegal, unconstitutional activity of Bush's administration can be achieved through pointing out historical obstruction of justice, and abuse of power, for which remedies were implimented by our government, which have been discarded and ignored by Bush? Do you CARE, that our privacy rights are being destroyed? </font color> There is no comparison to today. <font color="red">That is true, today, our Constitution is facing the greatest threat of our lifetimes. No comparison at all. </font color> Now the left is calling Bush Hitler and may be agreeing with Iran that the genocide of 6 millions Jews never happened as they make these foolish and unfair comparisons.
<font color="red">That's right, Deeman, anyone who doesn't agree with Bush breaking the law, torturing people, removing habeas corpus, breaking international agreements, and placing himself above the law, pardoning present illegal activity, is likely to deny Hitler's genocide. Statements like this are a perfect example of why the right gets accused of being nuts. Faulty premises abound. Insults run rampant against anyone who opposes, or exposes Bush's gross illegal actions against humanity. </font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

[ QUOTE ]
What would we have if, for instance carter was now in office. You might say, we would never have gone to war. Right and we'd still have 50 plus hostages in Iran so he could still be negoiating rather than let Reagan bail him out. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red">Jimmy Carter settled the long grudges between Isreal and Egypt. Please point out to us what great dimplomatic achievments in joining warring nations in peace have been accomplished by Bush's Administration.? Carter remained in the White House throughout the campaign for re-election, working on freeing our hostages, which HE achieved before he left office, and was a man above using National tragedy for his personal political purposes, unlike your boy George, who has sought to hold a nation in the grip of fear for seven years, and use it for his overreaching efforts of power, and lies and corruption and killing. Reagan sold arms to the Contras, for hostages, and then tried to cover it up. Many were indicted, and many were convicted. How many Americans, and others, have since been killed with the vast supply of weaponry supplied to the world by Republicans for decades?

Gayle in Md. </font color>

wolfdancer
10-12-2007, 01:25 PM
As I have written before, I'm an admirer of Jimmy Carter. You don't get to be Captain of a Nuclear Sub, without some exemplary qualifications, including leadership and intelligence. He had two big problems in his Presidency...people were hoping he was another Jack Kennedy, and no one could live up to that legend then...but more important, a congress that wouldn't work with him.
He may have been too moral, way too moral a man for the job....it seems you had to be a Nixon, or LBJ type then to get anything done.
Today, the rules have changed...get you a war going, and people will then question your wrong doings, only at the risk of being called UnAmerican.
the checks and balances have disappeared as the office of the President grabs more power.
The thing that makes it all work...the Presidential Pardon, where a criminal act can be forgiven, even before it's committed.
We Catholics lag behind..we have to sin first then beg forgiveness....but maybe we would add this wild card to our dogma?

wolfdancer
10-12-2007, 01:28 PM
May I ask, where do you get the information that Reagan had anything to do with the release of the hostages.
Gayle, it's my belief they hostages were used as pawns, and their release delayed until Reagan could assume office.
I hope that I'm wrong about that, but the timing convinced me then of a secret deal to make Reagan look good

Gayle in MD
10-12-2007, 01:43 PM
The negotiations had been completed through Carter's work and effort. The delay, was a final smack in his face, to make him look less effective than he actually was.

More Republican BS has been written about this than almost anything else, other than the total myth that REagan ended the cold war, another Republican myth. The Soviet Union fell on it's own, through much the same methods being used by Bush at present, a stunned economy, due to an ill fated excapade in Arab sand.

Carter was a great president, and IMO, will recieve the late bravos which Bush mistakenly believes will come his way at some fantasy future time. He fails to believe, to this day, that his propaganda has already been exposed, and much more to come. He is hated all over the world, and here. Nothing will ever resurrect this administration from the darkest of all in history, for America.

Had Carter been re-elected, we would not be in this mess, and our dependence on Foreign fossil fuels, would have been solved long ago. The would have been more peaceful settlements between nations of grudges, and our foreign policy would be something to be proud of, instead of ashamed of, for all times.

Gayle in Md.

LWW
10-12-2007, 01:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> As I have written before, I'm an admirer of Jimmy Carter. You don't get to be Captain of a Nuclear Sub, without some exemplary qualifications, including leadership and intelligence. <hr /></blockquote>

Very true. You are aware that President Carter never was aren't you?

LWW

SKennedy
10-12-2007, 02:23 PM
Yes, Deeman.....please provide government documentation for all the things you say...and stand on your head too, twirl around 3 times, etc.
The last time I saw this type of paranoia was in the late 60's and early 70's....a result of smoking a lot of pot (yes Gayle I smoked pot). Secret governments, secret lists....it just goes on and on....yet, Gayle finds nothing wrong with wearing a politcally provoking t-shirt that is tranlated into Arabic? Is this so the common man out there can determine you are sympathetic to the noble causes of gitmo detainees. I prefer Cooleridge poetry to any of your buddies any day. I've been reading your posts for about a month now and notice an increase in hysteria. Please do not stroke out on us before the election.

Deeman3
10-12-2007, 02:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> May I ask, where do you get the information that Reagan had anything to do with the release of the hostages. Please provide government documentation for that statement. <font color="blue">

Where have you been that you don't even realize they were released immediatley on his taking office. You want to twist history? You can't have reasonable discussions with people like you. I give up. </font color>

Gayle in Md. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

bamadog
10-12-2007, 02:50 PM
If he was such a "great President" you shouldn't have any trouble showing some of his lasting accomplishments. No, this is not an invitation to bash Bush. Just back up what you stated. Thanks

SKennedy
10-12-2007, 02:54 PM
Carter and Reagan were both # 1 in my lifetime!
Carter the worst and Reagan the best. I'm so glad I was out of the military before Crapper (I mean Carter) became Prez.

wolfdancer
10-12-2007, 03:55 PM
I had to look up Sen. Joe, because he was way before my time.
Interestingly enough he ran for D.A. as a Democrat, before he switched over to the dark side. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
What what even more interesting was the guy he defeated for Senator...Robert La Folette:
"La Follette was elected as a Republican to the United States Senate on September 29, 1925, to fill the vacancy caused by the death of his father. "Young Bob," as he was called, was a champion of organized labor. He gained national prominence between 1936 and 1940 as chairman of a special Senate investigating committee, commonly called the La Follette Civil Liberties Committee, which exposed the surveillance, physical intimidation and other techniques used by large employers to prevent workers from organizing.

He was chairman of the Committee on Manufactures in the 71st and 72nd Congresses. He supported President Franklin D. Roosevelt and most New Deal legislation until the passage of the 1938 naval expansion bill."

Imagine, a Republican being called a champion of labor, and actually supporting a bill by a Democratic President.
Makes you wonder if he really did commit suicide, or did Nixon's dirty tricks guys do him in.
Google is awesome, and worth every penny of the $600 a share they are priced at...worth that to someone else...I thought they was overpriced at the near $100 IPO offering....Probably why I'm still living on the SS "dole" watching TV on the weekends, instead of being out on my yacht on weekends and living in a half million house, with one floor devoted to pool....like one poster here does....and then claims...she's a Democrat.....
I've been trying to figure out for these last few years how, it's been claimed, that she supports the idea of giving away the "Rich" Republican's hard earned money to the poor, without cutting into her own?

Bobbyrx
10-12-2007, 04:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>

Had Carter been re-elected, we would not be in this mess, and our dependence on Foreign fossil fuels, would have been solved long ago.
Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red">What I personally remember about Carter were gas lines and 20 percent interest rates on mortgages. Carter's approval dropped to 25%, lower than Richard Nixon's during Watergate. Please explain how he was going to end our dependence on foreign fossil fuels, since he did nothing the first 4 years</font color>

LWW
10-12-2007, 04:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bobbyrx:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>

Had Carter been re-elected, we would not be in this mess, and our dependence on Foreign fossil fuels, would have been solved long ago.
Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red">What I personally remember about Carter were gas lines and 20 percent interest rates on mortgages. Carter's approval dropped to 25%, lower than Richard Nixon's during Watergate. Please explain how he was going to end our dependence on foreign fossil fuels, since he did nothing the first 4 years</font color> <hr /></blockquote>
It's easy.

1-Take a 34 inch 32 oz Louisville Slugger.

2-Grab tightly with both hands near the knob end.

3-Hit yourself squarely and assertively 3 times directly in the forehead.

4-Chant "JUST BLAME BUSH-JUST BLAME BUSH-JUST BLAME BUSH" while conducting step 3.

5-Repeat as needed.

Neoleftist logic should come in clear after this for several days. Re

LWW

Gayle in MD
10-13-2007, 11:54 AM
Where have you been that you don't know that Carter was the man who negotiated their release, not Reagan. Typical Republican BS, even if you do have to give credit to a man who wasn't even in office during the negotiations.

Go Read Carters Biography, before you start critisizing the facts. Read up on Arab false pride, too, while you're at it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Guess what, I gave up on all of you people long ago, when you voted twice for George Bush, and praised the men who put us in this mess, beginning with Ronald Reagan, the man who propped up Saddam, and sold arms to the contras. The man who did absolutely nothing when hundreds of marines were slaughtered in their sleep. The people who did nothing when planes were shot down with American Students from Maryland were killed in terrorist attacks. The people who did nothing when Clinton's experts told them "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside The United States. This entire Arab mess, including Saddam, and the Talliban, was created by Republicans, and YOU voted for all of them, no doubt. So pony up and pay for this ten trillion dollar debt, and while you're at it, apoligise to the rest of the country for the led in our food, and the poison in our toothpase, and, and our dying tributaries, and dependence on foreign oil, because if Jimm Carter hadn't had to be demonized by the brilliant right, this country would be in the middle of a whole new industrial revolution, without OIL, and this polanet might have a shot at a future.

but instead, who don't you just go read all the censored Scientifice Reports you paid for, but will never get to read in full.

Gayle in Md.

LWW
10-13-2007, 04:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Where have you been that you don't know that Carter was the man who negotiated their release, not Reagan.

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>
And, what have you to back this statement up?

LWW