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bradb
10-12-2007, 11:26 PM
I have been informed that I must have at least 4 balls to the rail so here is the same break modified to get at least 5 balls out to be on the safe side. http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/brad1943/9ballsafetybreak3-1.jpg http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/brad1943/Aftertable-break3.jpg

The opening is almost the same as befor except now the QB must travel further across as shown.

The hit on the 1B is right of the center about 1/8 to 1/4 ball. Use inside english as before. Its a matter of experiment till you find the best spot. Give it a fairly good rap but not too hard. let the momentum of the hit allow the QB to drift across.

This will cause the rack to spread diagonally as shown. I acheived a similar spread to this (after practice) but the QB did not always make it all the way across as it may cannon into the bottom balls, so use top left to avoid them, but even then it may get a hook. Still not difficult to do once you get the pace down. -Brad

bradb
10-13-2007, 11:12 AM
In my zeal at having discovered a hook safety break, i forgot to mention that my opponent has the option of a "roll out." (Having one of those senior moments Wolf alluded to.) However there are not a lot of good options available that won't allow me to put him right back in as the balls are close together.
-brad

Fran Crimi
10-13-2007, 12:01 PM
With all due respect, I think you may be headed in the wrong direction with a 9 Ball safety break. Breaking is a hugely advantageous shot and I don't think that giving up that advantage is the right thing to do.

It would seem to me that you're trying to turn a safety into an offensive move, and no matter how you spin it, it's a defensive move. Many, many players win from the break --- They can pocket the 9 on the break, or run out from the break, or play a combo or carom off of the lowest numbered ball. Giving up all those possibilities just for the sake of a safe shot, doesn't really make much sense.

Plus, because of the opponent's option to push out, it really minimilizes the benefits of a safety break.

I wouldn't spend too much time trying to perfect it if I were you, but rather spend the time working on an offensive break that can work to your advantage, and maybe even lead you to a win.

Fran

DSAPOLIS
10-13-2007, 12:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> With all due respect, I think you may be headed in the wrong direction with a 9 Ball safety break. Breaking is a hugely advantageous shot and I don't think that giving up that advantage is the right thing to do.

It would seem to me that you're trying to turn a safety into an offensive move, and no matter how you spin it, it's a defensive move. Many, many players win from the break --- They can pocket the 9 on the break, or run out from the break, or play a combo or carom off of the lowest numbered ball. Giving up all those possibilities just for the sake of a safe shot, doesn't really make much sense.

Plus, because of the opponent's option to push out, it really minimilizes the benefits of a safety break.

I wouldn't spend too much time trying to perfect it if I were you, but rather spend the time working on an offensive break that can work to your advantage, and maybe even lead you to a win.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

I completely agree. This may work on weaker players, but by looking at the layouts you are leaving I see 4 or 5 options that would turn the tables in my favor and leave you in the high grass. I think that there are many more productive options when learning how to win at 9 Ball. I think that when your approach is defensive from the start, you will have a hard time winning many games like that.


Lessons In 9 Ball (http://stores.lulu.com/blkjackds12)

bradb
10-13-2007, 12:49 PM
Yes the break is a big advantage for good nine ball players, this was intended for players who may not pocket a ball on the break consistantly.

I tried this technique with a friend who is a pretty good 9 ball player and when I pulled it off he had a difficult time finding a good roll out. Of course when I just left a simple kick he managed to hit it safe most of the time.

One side note, I found that with this break but with increased power, I was able to pocket a wing ball more effectively then my usual break which is fairly good, but the QB is sent for a ride and its a toss up on where it winds up. -brad /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

1Time
10-13-2007, 12:57 PM
Not everyone shoots 9-ball all the time with a push out option on the break. Not saying it should be like this, but that rule is not always available. And, not everyone has their maximum offensive style 9-ball break working well all the time, whether that be due to poor mojo, inability to get a good rack on a bad table, or whatever. But I agree it's definitely not a best break to use in the vast majority situations and especially with better players. However, I can see value in adding it to my 9-ball breaking arsenal.

bradb
10-13-2007, 01:04 PM
Disapolis -You mention you see 5 outs, I only see one, which is certainly not easy, I'm very interested in your analyses, roll out technique is not one of my strong points. -brad /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif <hr /></blockquote>

DSAPOLIS
10-13-2007, 05:35 PM
Brad, its not only roll-out technique, but knowing when to tie up balls intentionally, or taking an intentional foul to increase the difficulty of the run-out for the incoming player.

Here are six diagrams... all of these shots are fairly easy to execute...

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u151/Dsapolis/option_1.jpg

In this shot, we do not push, we intentionally foul. This gives the incoming player ball in hand. With a rack like this with all that congestion, we have just made it worse. He can make the 1 ball, maybe the 2, but when he gets to the 3 ball, he will have a problem getting on the 4 ball - but look, there is only 1 pocket for the 3ball, basically only 1 pocket for the 2ball. Here he has ball in hand and he has his work cut out for him. This shot is different than the last shot I will diagram. Here we take an intentional foul and congest the 3 ball.

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u151/Dsapolis/option_2.jpg

Here we can take an intentional foul and send the 2 ball up table to either point a-b-or c... with ball in hand, he may get to pocket the 1 and 2, but position on the 3 is different story. You take an intentional foul and that prevents him from passing the shot back to you. the 3 and 6 are tied up pretty good, so I am not too worried about my opponent running out, but you never know for sure. I like all of these options because all 3 shots are simple to execute.

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u151/Dsapolis/option_3.jpg

Here are 3 more options.
a) tangle the 4 ball against the 5.
b)bank the 4 ball into the gap between the 6 and 2... this way you make position from the 2 to the 3 more difficult.
c) bank the 4 as shown to the rail... its almost impossible to get from the 3 to the 4.

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u151/Dsapolis/option_4.jpg

Here are two push shots... both afford the opposing player an opportunity to see the 1 ball, but not much to gain from either position.

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u151/Dsapolis/option_5.jpg

This is the best option because with this shot, you take away the opposing player's ability to play safe against you.. this is very simple to execute...


http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u151/Dsapolis/option_6.jpg
Here is another push, where we tie up 2 balls, but still leave the opposing player a shot on the 1 ball . . . this is different than the first shot... this is a push, the other was an intentional foul.

You may see other options here that I missed, but these are some pretty easy solutions to dealing with no shot after this particular break. You just need to train yourself to see as many of your options as possible.

Lessons In 9 Ball (http://stores.lulu.com/blkjackds12)

Cydpkt
10-13-2007, 10:32 PM
In the APA we don't have the push out rule. They say it gives the higher skilled players too much of an advantage. This works both ways if in a league match and I happen to make a ball with this safety break I could get in trouble. When a SL9 plays a SL1 to SL3 they only need to average 1-3 balls per game to win the match. When they get two coaches it is easy to coach the person to make a ball or two then play a safety. I have had nights where I am spreading the table wide and not making a ball. There have been times where I have thought of a break like this. This could have hustle opportunities. That is easy to see.

bradb
10-14-2007, 12:16 PM
(quote Dsapolis)
there are easy solutions to dealing with no shot after this particular break. You just need to train yourself to see as many of your options as possible.
<hr /></blockquote>

Some very good instruction here for all 9 ball players. I'm basically an 8 ball player so I never thought of these strategies. However I see some examples where you offer ball in hand that would give the breaker a chance to once again lay down a nasty hook since the balls are clustered at one end of the table.

The one solution you show (simple roll out) is the one I like because it requires the QB to go down table away from any danger of a return hook. How ever if the roll out is not perfect there is a chance to pocket the 1B in the lower left corner, draw back for the 2 and bank it out with draw to leave it hooked again. All in all though I've learned some nice strategy's in your examples.

-Note to Cydpkt and otheres attempting this break. The leave I show in my diagram was my best effort which I acheived about 3 out of 10. There is an element of luck in this break as it relies on the bottom rack balls to not cannon the QB out into the open, (this happened about 2 out of 10 attempts for me.) The goal is for these balls to cover the QB into the hook shown.
This break will take a lot of practice as its all about hitting the 1B with just the right amount of spin and pace. before I learned about the 4 ball out rule it was automatic, now with the added pace its more difficult. -Brad

DSAPOLIS
10-14-2007, 12:46 PM
Brad,
That push is definitely the smartest way to go, and even if he can pocket the 1 ball, his chance of getting on the 2 ball - with an angle to get on the 3 ball are extremely unlikely.

When executing a push, you want to tempt your opponent to go for the shot. They may or may not be looking down the road to the 3, 4, and 5. That is why you should always evaluate all of your options when you cannot see the lowest ball on the table.

In my book, I have a section about reading the rack - and a section on safeties - those lessons will teach you how to look down the road and see things much more clearly from the beginning to the end of the rack. When you are able to define the trouble spots, you can then use them to your advantage.

Not every rack is roadmap run-out, so understanding strategy and the psychology that comes with 9 ball strategy is extremely important.

bradb
10-14-2007, 02:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DSAPOLIS:</font><hr>
Brad,
That push is definitely the smartest way to go, and even if he can pocket the 1 ball, his chance of getting on the 2 ball - with an angle to get on the 3 ball are extremely unlikely.

When executing a push, you want to tempt your opponent to go for the shot. They may or may not be looking down the road to the 3, 4, and 5. That is why you should always evaluate all of your options when you cannot see the lowest ball on the table.

In my book, I have a section about reading the rack - and a section on safeties - those lessons will teach you how to look down the road and see things much more clearly from the beginning to the end of the rack. When you are able to define the trouble spots, you can then use them to your advantage.

Not every rack is roadmap run-out, so understanding strategy and the psychology that comes with 9 ball strategy is extremely important. <hr /></blockquote>

David, I do see one shot to a possible hook in this roll out.

-Take the roll out offered and hit the 1B dead on leaving the QB right there. Bank the 1B off the far rail and back up behind the cluster. Apply left hand side to throw the ball right from the bank so that it clears the cluster as the angle given is not wide enough. That should leave another nasty hook. It will require good weight control but I think I would take it on.

wolfdancer
10-14-2007, 03:55 PM
I've got your book....and believe I also bought a copy for a friend. I just been banging balls lately though, and don't put in any practice time.
I see a similar safety play for all the examples, as a reply for the foul...while an expert player, might try to set up a 3 fouls win from there....since I can't run 3 balls ...I might just bank the 1 near the 9, while trying to hide the CB....and then if I got bih...I'd do what we used to call a "Bo Miller" in the Bay Area....Bo was a so-so player....who saw a 9-ball combo on every shot...and sometimes even made them.
I understand though that the setup after the foul is just to show how difficult it would be to run the table with bih....and you'd trap a lot of players into trying..

bradb
10-14-2007, 05:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I've got your book....and believe I also bought a copy for a friend. I just been banging balls lately though, and don't put in any practice time.
I see a similar safety play for all the examples, as a reply for the foul...while an expert player, might try to set up a 3 fouls win from there....since I can't run 3 balls ...I might just bank the 1 near the 9, while trying to hide the CB....and then if I got bih...I'd do what we used to call a "Bo Miller" in the Bay Area....Bo was a so-so player....who saw a 9-ball combo on every shot...and sometimes even made them.
I understand though that the setup after the foul is just to show how difficult it would be to run the table with bih....and you'd trap a lot of players into trying.. <hr /></blockquote>

Wolf, I think the straight bank to the nine is good too, as I sure don't want my opponent to take this shot. Since the balls are so close BIH is a very possible here. And a slam dunk on the nine looks favorable.

This break is one I might employ aganist a player who is on a hot streak when I'm not breaking well. (For me it runs in cycles.) At least in this break I won't sell out the run, and give myself a chance to win.

But Fran and David are right, its not something to try at top level play. The break should be an advantage, not surrendered for a hook. -brad