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tiger91
10-15-2007, 05:32 PM
I was reading some of the posts in the archive today, and someone mentioned a rule of thumb about leaving a ball on the bottom rail until all of the remaining balls are open. Not sure I really understand the idea or what the logic is. Don't think Fels or Capelle mention this one.

Bob Jewett? Anyone else?

Bob_Jewett
10-15-2007, 05:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tiger91:</font><hr> I was reading some of the posts in the archive today, and someone mentioned a rule of thumb about leaving a ball on the bottom rail until all of the remaining balls are open. Not sure I really understand the idea or what the logic is. Don't think Fels or Capelle mention this one.

Bob Jewett? Anyone else?
<hr /></blockquote>
I don't remember any particular rule. I think this could only apply to the "clear up and re-break" style of straight pool, where the initial break leaves much of the rack clustered. Often you will clear up 3-4 balls under the rack and then break with a ball under the rack. In that case, it is nice to have one ball remaining on the foot cushion for position in case the cue ball doesn't get out to the middle of the table.

071838
10-15-2007, 08:24 PM
No, Fels mentioned it. The idea is that your secondary break shot could very well leave the CB under the remaining balls too, in which case you'll be grateful for the company. That OB stays there until you get all the rest open. This advice originally comes from the east coast, where the best 14.1 was played bar none. GF

wolfdancer
10-15-2007, 09:43 PM
is that Fels guy still around?...he must be like 90 now....probably in some rest home writing his memoirs

DSAPOLIS
10-16-2007, 07:30 AM
I believe that this refers to having an "Insurance Ball" at the back of the pack, so that if you have to disperse the balls with a secondary break shot, that you have something to shoot at after you break up the balls. Many players tend to just pocket the open balls just to score points, but every ball on the table serves a purpose.

Here a simple example of utilizing a secondary break shot in that fashion, and landing on the insurance ball(s).

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u151/Dsapolis/InsuranceBall_backrail1.jpg

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u151/Dsapolis/InsuranceBall_backrail2.jpg

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u151/Dsapolis/InsuranceBall_backrail3.jpg

Deeman3
10-16-2007, 07:41 AM
GF,

Don't pay any attention to Wolfdancer. He's just jealous having a high run in 14.1 of 3!

90? Is that not the pot calling the kettle black? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

071838
10-16-2007, 01:54 PM
Cute, Wolf. You're worming your way into my heart. GF

tiger91
10-16-2007, 02:07 PM
Cool. DSAPOLIS, where are those pictures from?

supergreenman
10-16-2007, 04:24 PM
Those are from his book. I think it may be out of print, but he has been very willing to share knowledge in the past.

dutchboy
10-16-2007, 04:45 PM
Those balls behind the rack are also favorites to play position off of to fall on the next break shot. Sigel loved the ball on the short rail so he could swing around two rails and fall on whatever ball he chose to break the next rack. Also, Di Liberto maintained that keeping a ball in the rack was a smart idea, in case you got out of position for the break, you could stop in the rack and go behind the head string, leaving you a lot of options.

DSAPOLIS
10-16-2007, 06:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote supergreenman:</font><hr> Those are from his book. I think it may be out of print, but he has been very willing to share knowledge in the past. <hr /></blockquote>

These pictures are not from my book, I just drew these up real quick with the cuetable and photoshop. My 14.1 book - Stroke of Genius - will be available for sale in the next few weeks. I am in the middle of finsihing up the diagrams and adding new material to the updated version of the book. In the meantime, I do have my other book, Lessons in 9 Ball avaliable at

http://stores.lulu.com/blkjackds12

supergreenman
10-17-2007, 11:29 AM
Thanks for setting me straight Blackjack.

James /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

bradb
10-17-2007, 12:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dutchboy:</font><hr> Those balls behind the rack are also favorites to play position off of to fall on the next break shot. Sigel loved the ball on the short rail so he could swing around two rails and fall on whatever ball he chose to break the next rack. Also, Di Liberto maintained that keeping a ball in the rack was a smart idea, in case you got out of position for the break, you could stop in the rack and go behind the head string, leaving you a lot of options. <hr /></blockquote>

There are a lot of choices in the scenario. I think it depends on a players style with the break out.

For me I would pot the 9 ball with inside english and come straight over and hit the 7, 12. This would loosen all the touching balls. Then the 10 ball offers a nice angle to come back up and pick off the remainder, or a cannon incase the cross over is off and does'nt loosen enough balls. I realize the 2 ball offers two rail balls to pocket, but I like the spread from the other side which would probably offer even more shots.

The reason I like that play is the 9 lets me see the pocket as I shoot it, instead of and out of sight cut. Its a matter of preference. -Brad

DSAPOLIS
10-17-2007, 12:58 PM
Brad,

That may or may not work, and you may not be in another position to effectively get on the 2 to break out this cluster. Personally, I would never break this cluster out off of the 7-12 in the way that you described. There several other "wiser" choices. I don't think pocketing the 9 and getting to the 7 is very probable, and even if you do, you'll just have a mess that you'll have to clean up afterwards, Its better to bear down on the 2 ball and take care of business now.

In the scenario I diagrammed, we really don't have a good break ball candidate besides the 2 ball. However, there is a possiblity (after the cluster break up) to manufacture a break ball with the 6 or the 8 - or by settling with the 13, which is high, but it'll work.

The shot on the 9 really doesn't afford you an opportunity to do anything else but to get trapped into eliminating those 2 insurance balls prematurely, which is the focus of the lesson and what we are trying to avoid.

If you look at the 3, 6, and 13... those are potential break balls, and that area has what I call "stoppers" or balls that will slow down balls that are coming out of the cluster. I want everything to move in that direction - not at light speed - but carefully. This is because I want a good chance of having a break ball develop out of those balls.

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u151/Dsapolis/InsuranceBall_backrail1B.jpg

The other side of the table has nothing but the 2 ball - and if I disperse the balls in that direction, or "up table" like you described, I may end up without a break ball. If you play this game correctly and intelligently, you won't put yourself into situations like that. You never want to cut your own throat. Here's a few more diagrams that explain this further...

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u151/Dsapolis/InsuranceBall_backrail4.jpg

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u151/Dsapolis/InsuranceBall_backrail5.jpg

Some people may or may not agree with shooting the 2 ball, but I am sure that if you asked any of the 100+, 200+, and yes... we have some 300+ runners on this forum, they will tell you to play the game smart - and to carefully consider every move you make when running any sequence of balls - especially when you have to disperse a cluster such as this.

071838
10-17-2007, 09:55 PM
Hey, that's really all GOOD stuff. Look forward to your book. GF

bradb
10-18-2007, 11:42 AM
If I was presented with the QB placement shown in your diagram then of course I would shoot the 2, its the obvious break out.

What I meant was I would have approached the rack from another angle based on my own preference, because as i said when faced with a crucial shot I like to see the pocket. Granted the 2 is not that difficult of a cut but I have seen off angle cuts missed when a break is involved.

My own preference for the approach would have been to shape to the 3 for a straight pot leaving the 9 for an off rail across to hit the 12. This is a very easy shot and with the 3 gone it would leave a better chance of a good hit. There is some danger of clipping the 12 on the wrong side, but the hit will develope the 7, 12 for a possible continue.
There is some danger in both sequences, for instance on the 2 break, if the QB carooms right of the 7 it could be tied up in the pack.

In a game faced with this layout, I would have been drawn to the 9 break because of my own personnal comfort. It is certainly not for everybody nor do I recommend it over yours. Its just that I know I can execute that shot.

Your point is well taken that the approach to the break should be to consider all factors.