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nAz
10-17-2007, 09:31 PM
not sure if Doc Dave originated this chart but i did find it at his SiTe (http://pdfdownload.randomlypoked.com/pdf2html.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.engr.colostate.e du%2F~dga%2Fpool%2Fresources%2Fnine-ball_drill.pdf&images=yes)

Has anyone used this evaluation chart? wondering if you found it to be accurate in determining your rating.

I ran the drill three times figuring an average of the results would give me a more accurate rating. i ended up with 33.8 score which according to the chart puts me at the low end of the advance player rating.

BTW i managed to to make the 9B on the break twice and just spotted it. should i have left it down or after completing the run scored it as a 10 instead of a 9 like i did?

1Time
10-17-2007, 10:07 PM
You just leave the 9-ball down and keep running out.

Since the drill does not account for the defensive aspect of the game and does not account for making the 9-ball early, it does not accurately reflect one's 9-ball abilities as compared to other players. Nothing wrong with using it as a drill, although I prefer my own drills. However, the rating system for this drill is too skewed to be useful.

dr_dave
10-17-2007, 10:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr>not sure if Doc Dave originated this chart but i did find it at his SiTe (http://pdfdownload.randomlypoked.com/pdf2html.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.engr.colostate.e du%2F~dga%2Fpool%2Fresources%2Fnine-ball_drill.pdf&amp;images=yes) <hr /></blockquote>Here's a better link to the 9-ball evaluation drill (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/nine-ball_drill.pdf). Your link doesn't provide accurate formatting. I created this drill based on several different versions I've seen posted here and in magazine articles over the years. I decided to use a 1-10 rating system. I would appreciate any input on the labels and whether or not people think the score ranges are appropriate. This and other drills and evaluation tools can be found under "drills" here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/index.html).

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr>Has anyone used this evaluation chart? wondering if you found it to be accurate in determining your rating.

I ran the drill three times figuring an average of the results would give me a more accurate rating. i ended up with 33.8 score which according to the chart puts me at the low end of the advance player rating.

BTW i managed to to make the 9B on the break twice and just spotted it. should i have left it down or after completing the run scored it as a 10 instead of a 9 like i did?<hr /></blockquote>The rules on my sheet imply you should leave it down and continue the rack in rotation. The highest score possible for a rack is 9. Balls pocketed on the break count the same as balls pocketed in rotation.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
10-17-2007, 10:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>the rating system for this drill is too skewed to be useful.<hr /></blockquote>What improvements or changes would you suggest?

Thanks,
Dave

wolfdancer
10-17-2007, 11:21 PM
Looks to me like the first paragraph explains it is just an offensive skills rating system....but if one plays enough 9-ball, I'm guessing as you score higher with this system, which requires cue ball control and pocketing skills, the rest of your game will not lag too far behind.
We had something similar awhile back "Equal Offense" where you could score 20 points per inning, and play 10 innings. It helped my pool team improve.
We even played in the worldwide internet tournaments, that Bob Jewett's team usually won.
My team didn't do that good, but we did beat a team of Japanese schoolgirls once...we went out and celebrated afterwards...not sure if they ever lived down the shame...I'm hoping that there was no Sepaku....
Summary:...nice system, I'm going to start using it...and Thanks for bringing it here to the board's attention

1Time
10-17-2007, 11:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>the rating system for this drill is too skewed to be useful.<hr /></blockquote>What improvements or changes would you suggest?

Thanks,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

As is, the only improvements I can see to make are to scrap the rating system you've given it and call this evaluation drill simply a 9-ball run out drill or a shot making drill.

Eric.
10-18-2007, 08:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> not sure if Doc Dave originated this chart but i did find it at his SiTe (http://pdfdownload.randomlypoked.com/pdf2html.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.engr.colostate.e du%2F~dga%2Fpool%2Fresources%2Fnine-ball_drill.pdf&amp;images=yes)

Has anyone used this evaluation chart? wondering if you found it to be accurate in determining your rating.

I ran the drill three times figuring an average of the results would give me a more accurate rating. i ended up with 33.8 score which according to the chart puts me at the low end of the advance player rating.

BTW i managed to to make the 9B on the break twice and just spotted it. should i have left it down or after completing the run scored it as a 10 instead of a 9 like i did?

<hr /></blockquote>

Hi nAz,

The drill is "playing the ghost" and has been around for a long time, I highly doubt this was an original idea.

The drill, imo, is a decent gauge of 9 ball offensive ability. I think the Intermediate to Advanced ratings are off a lil, cuz players skill level on avg have gone up a bit. For example, "group 1,2,3,4" should be "novice". In NY, a decent "D" player will easy avg 3-4 balls per rack, so a "20 score for a "D" player is not uncommon.

I dunno if the ratings are something that Dave came up with or rehashed from someone else, but I think it's fairly accurate.


Eric &gt;IMO, of course

dr_dave
10-18-2007, 09:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr>The drill is "playing the ghost" and has been around for a long time, I highly doubt this was an original idea.<hr /></blockquote>You are quite correct. The idea of using solo 9-ball (or 10-ball) to measure one's level is not new. In fact, you have posted a 10-ball A-D rating drill (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=227460&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=) in the past. The 9-ball 1-10 rating drill is very similar.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr>The drill, imo, is a decent gauge of 9 ball offensive ability. I think the Intermediate to Advanced ratings are off a lil, cuz players skill level on avg have gone up a bit. For example, "group 1,2,3" should be "novice". In NY, a decent "D" player will easy avg 3-4 balls per rack, so a "20 score for a "D" player is not uncommon.

I dunno if the ratings are something that Dave came up with or rehashed from someone else, but I think it's fairly accurate.<hr /></blockquote>I chose the 1-10 ratings and assigned the labels (novice, intermediate, advanced, pro) based on input from a few people. Maybe I will add an additional row with the A-D scale. What would you suggest for number ranges to correspond to each letter rating? Also, what descriptive labels would you use for the letters (e.g., D = "novice")?

Thanks,
Dave

dr_dave
10-18-2007, 09:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>Maybe I will add an additional row with the A-D scale. What would you suggest for number ranges to correspond to each letter rating?<hr /></blockquote>FYI, I just added the A-D scale to the rating row. Please let me know if you guys agree or disagree with the number, letter, and label ratings. Here's the link to the 9-ball rating drill (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/nine-ball_drill.pdf).

Regards,
Dave

1Time
10-18-2007, 10:04 AM
dr_dave,

I'm not meaning to simply criticize your 9-ball evaluation drill. Upon seeing it last night it reminded me of a 9-ball drill that I've used for years and immediately considered much better than yours. However, I never thought to formalize it's rules or give it a rating system that everyone could use to tell how their 9-ball game rated. I just used it as a drill to practice and entertain myself when not playing anyone else.

So, last night I came up with my own 9-ball evaluation drill that combines much of my old 9-ball drill, new rules I made up, and a rating system. I have not tested it, so it likely does not yet accurately rate everyone's various levels of play. However, even without fine tuning it first I already consider it a much better and more telling exercise than yours.

How would you suggest it best for me to get players to use it, provide feedback to help me fine tune it, and also popularize it?

Thanks

Eric.
10-18-2007, 10:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>Maybe I will add an additional row with the A-D scale. What would you suggest for number ranges to correspond to each letter rating?<hr /></blockquote>FYI, I just added the A-D scale to the rating row. Please let me know if you guys agree or disagree with the number, letter, and label ratings. Here's the link to the 9-ball rating drill (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/nine-ball_drill.pdf).

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

It's still off, per NYC standards (it may vary by region).

In NY, D wold be your 1,2,3,4. A "C" should be 5,6. A "B" would be 7,8. "A" is 9. Open to Pro (which covers a wide area) would be 10.

Keep in mind, a solid "pro" beats on a low "Open" player. Also keep in mind that anyone playing "A+" or better destroys the 9 ball ghost w/BIH. It's not even a challenge.


Eric

PS-IMO, I think novice should be 1,2,3,4. Intermed-5,6,7. Adv-8,9. Pro-10

1Time
10-18-2007, 10:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>Maybe I will add an additional row with the A-D scale. What would you suggest for number ranges to correspond to each letter rating?<hr /></blockquote>FYI, I just added the A-D scale to the rating row. Please let me know if you guys agree or disagree with the number, letter, and label ratings. Here's the link to the 9-ball rating drill (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/nine-ball_drill.pdf).

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Great minds must think alike. I already had included the A - D ratings to my rating system, but also included (edit) two additional levels.

nAz
10-18-2007, 11:58 AM
sup Eric... long time no see, hows the marrage thing going /ccboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

I'm not sure about this regions D players being able to pocket around 20 balls in five attempts even with BIH. It seems to come down to having an open rack after the break for their level of play, at least from what i have seen they having trouble playing position to break up clustered balls. I believe a true D player should be around 15 Balls.

BTW do you think that the Tri-state tour has players that are over rated? i know a few of them and i don't believe their rating is correct... at least not when compared to the tour players from say seven years ago.

nAz
10-18-2007, 12:01 PM
1Time I would be interested in seeing your rating systems. why not compile it and have the Doc. posted on his web site?

Eric.
10-18-2007, 12:05 PM
Hey nAz, all is well...

I think you're right, I might have been overestimating a "D" player.

Maybe more like this:

D=Novice= Daves 1,2,3

C=Intermediate=Dave's 4,5,6

B=advanced=Dave's 7,8

A=advanced+ =Dave's 9

Open to Pro= pro=equal's Dave's 10

Also, many others use 10 racks because it evens out teh sampling, in case there is a bad rack in there.


Eric

1Time
10-18-2007, 12:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> 1Time I would be interested in seeing your rating systems. why not compile it and have the Doc. posted on his web site? <hr /></blockquote>

However is best to get it fine tuned and popularized is what I'm after. I am not opposed to posting it in a separate thread and/or dr_dave using it on his site for that purpose. I'm itching to post it and may soon, but would like dr_dave's reply first.

dr_dave
10-18-2007, 12:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr>I think you're right, I might have been overestimating a "D" player.

Maybe more like this:

D=Novice= Daves 1,2,3

C=Intermediate=Dave's 4,5,6

B=advanced=Dave's 7,8

A=advanced+ =Dave's 9

Open to Pro= pro=equal's Dave's 10

Also, many others use 10 racks because it evens out teh sampling, in case there is a bad rack in there.<hr /></blockquote>nAz and Eric,

Thanks for the suggestions. I just changed the document (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/nine-ball_drill.pdf) to use the following ratings:

novice = D = 1,2,3
intermediate = C = 4,5,6
advanced = B = 7,8
superior = A = 9,10

I decided "pro" was not an appropriate label given the nature of the drill and standard rating systems. This drill is not a good measure or discriminator of pro-level skills.

Originally, I set it up for 10 racks, but then decided on 5. This will take less time and might encourage people to do it more often to better measure their average rating and trend of improvement over time. 5 also made it easier to fit everything on one page.

Thanks again,
Dave

BigRigTom
10-21-2007, 11:33 AM
Dr. Dave, I have been using your rating system in the revised form....and I like it but one question....
What happens when you make the 9 on the break?
Does it stay down and count as only 1 point and you still attempt to run the rack starting with ball in hand?

Seems like you should get some sort of bonus for making the 9 on the snap.

dr_dave
10-22-2007, 09:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> Dr. Dave, I have been using your rating system in the revised form....and I like it but one question....
What happens when you make the 9 on the break?<hr /></blockquote>You continue shooting the remaining balls in rotation until you miss. Any balls pocketed on the break count the same as any other pocketed balls. I just added clarification on this to the document (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/nine-ball_drill.pdf).
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr>Does it stay down and count as only 1 point and you still attempt to run the rack starting with ball in hand?<hr /></blockquote>Yes.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr>Seems like you should get some sort of bonus for making the 9 on the snap.<hr /></blockquote>Thank you for the suggestion, but I disagree. To make the 9 on the snap, one must have a powerful break, and be lucky. If one can consistently makes balls on the break (with or without power), the fewer remaining balls will be much easier to run (in general). To me, that's reward enough.

Regards,
Dave

Koenig
10-22-2007, 03:09 PM
I agree, 9 on the break says more about the racking than the break. It is spotted in the ghost. Maybe a bonus for the wingball. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif Kidding.

1Time
10-23-2007, 10:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>What improvements or changes would you suggest?

Thanks,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

dr_dave,

Your 9-ball drill (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/nine-ball_drill.pdf) is now looking better than before, cleaned up real nice.

I offer the following suggestions for your consideration.

The first is to bring the 9-ball up each time it is pocketed early and replace the highest numbered ball on the table with it. This will add to any player's value of using the drill because it conditions the player to shoot the balls off while the 9 is still on the table. Very important.

The second has to do with the number of games in the drill, 5. Not saying this is the wrong number of games for it; however the drill is bound to produce more reliable results when more games are played. And so I suggest adding a statement that addresses this such as a recommendation to play a minimum of 5 games, or more for more reliable results.

The third is to reward one additional point for pocketing the 9-ball, once per game. Because this a 9-ball evaluation drill (instead of simply a rotation drill), and the object in a 9-ball game is to pocket the 9-ball for the win, rewarding an additional point for pocketing the 9-ball would make the drill more realistic and valuable. This would add a risk / reward factor that is present in a 9-ball game, to go for it and win, or continue shooting in rotation for the win. And, this will also place a more realistic weighting and importance on the 9-ball break.

dr_dave
10-23-2007, 04:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>Your 9-ball drill (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/nine-ball_drill.pdf) is now looking better than before, cleaned up real nice.<hr /></blockquote>Thank you. I agree. The changes and improvements recommended by you and others have resulted in an even better document that everybody can use.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>I offer the following suggestions for your consideration.

The first is to bring the 9-ball up each time it is pocketed early and replace the highest numbered ball on the table with it. This will add to any player's value of using the drill because it conditions the player to shoot the balls off while the 9 is still on the table. Very important.<hr /></blockquote>Thank you for the suggestion, but I prefer straight rotation without ball replacement. This is simpler and doesn't require special rules for making the 9-ball multiple times.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>The second has to do with the number of games in the drill, 5. Not saying this is the wrong number of games for it; however the drill is bound to produce more reliable results when more games are played. And so I suggest adding a statement that addresses this such as a recommendation to play a minimum of 5 games, or more for more reliable results.<hr /></blockquote>Agreed ... the more games, the better. Hopefully, people will use the drill periodically to get a good running average and to track progress. I've added an additional rating row for 10 racks to give people that option.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>The third is to reward one additional point for pocketing the 9-ball, once per game. Because this a 9-ball evaluation drill (instead of simply a rotation drill), and the object in a 9-ball game is to pocket the 9-ball for the win, rewarding an additional point for pocketing the 9-ball would make the drill more realistic and valuable. This would add a risk / reward factor that is present in a 9-ball game, to go for it and win, or continue shooting in rotation for the win. And, this will also place a more realistic weighting and importance on the 9-ball break.<hr /></blockquote>Great idea! I've added this. The other benefit of that extra possible point is the rating range now goes from 0 to 50 for 5 racks and 0 to 100 for 10 racks. I like round numbers like these.

I've made all of the necessary changes to the document (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/nine-ball_drill.pdf). Please check it out and let me know if there any problems.

Thanks again,
Dave

1Time
10-23-2007, 06:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Please check it out and let me know if there any problems.

Thanks again,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

I thought the wording in the first paragraph may be confusing for some who are not familiar with the drill. Perhaps something like the following would help.

Shoot 5 or 10 racks of 9-ball with ball-in-hand after the break. Each pocketed ball without a scratch counts as 1 ball, except for the 9-ball which counts as 2 balls. Record the total number of balls pocketed without a scratch after each rack.

You surprised me, dr_dave. I thought for sure you would accept my 1st suggestion. There's just something more motivating and right about practicing 9-ball with a 9-ball on the table. Otherwise, it just looks like a game of rotation. And, I thought it much less likely for you to prefer my 2nd or 3rd suggestions. In any event, it's an improvement.

The only other thing I can see is using a spread of 5 numbers in the table, for example, use 0-5, 6-10, 11-15, etc.

BigRigTom
10-23-2007, 10:31 PM
1time ....just my 2 cents worth here....I like the drill and agree that it has been improved.
I agree there should be a bonus for making the 9 ball on any legal shot(on the break or anytime in the drill, lucky or intentional)just like in the actual game the bonus for making the 9 ball on any legal shot is winning the rack.

Seems to me that you are confusing the goal of Dr. Dave's skill evaluation "drill" with the "game" of 9 ball.

The purpose is clearly stated in the 1st sentence, or at least I understood it to be a "drill", not a win or lose "game".

That is the big difference between the "drill" and the "game" of either rotation or 9 ball for that matter.

1Time
10-23-2007, 11:37 PM
BigRigTom,

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> 1time ....just my 2 cents worth here....I like the drill and agree that it has been improved.
I agree there should be a bonus for making the 9 ball on any legal shot(on the break or anytime in the drill, lucky or intentional)just like in the actual game the bonus for making the 9 ball on any legal shot is winning the rack.<hr /></blockquote>

From this it seems you like the improvements because it makes the drill more like the game of 9-ball. And because the drill is now more like the game of 9-ball, the drill will be a better evaluation of one's 9-ball play.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr>Seems to me that you are confusing the goal of Dr. Dave's skill evaluation "drill" with the "game" of 9 ball.

The purpose is clearly stated in the 1st sentence, or at least I understood it to be a "drill", not a win or lose "game".

That is the big difference between the "drill" and the "game" of either rotation or 9 ball for that matter. <hr /></blockquote>

However, with these statements you seem to contradict what you said previously. So are you saying it's better for the drill to be more like the game of 9-ball or not? I'm confused because you seem confused. LOL

BigRigTom
10-24-2007, 09:21 AM
I'm just saying that in a drill the goal is to improve the skills in an organized and measurable way while in the game the goal is winning by using those improved skills but not necessarily trying to measure the individual skills you are utilizing.

dr_dave
10-24-2007, 12:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>I thought the wording in the first paragraph may be confusing for some who are not familiar with the drill. Perhaps something like the following would help.

Shoot 5 or 10 racks of 9-ball with ball-in-hand after the break. Each pocketed ball without a scratch counts as 1 ball, except for the 9-ball which counts as 2 balls. Record the total number of balls pocketed without a scratch after each rack.<hr /></blockquote>You are right. The first paragraph did need a little work. I made it much more clear, and even added an example.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>You surprised me, dr_dave. I thought for sure you would accept my 1st suggestion. There's just something more motivating and right about practicing 9-ball with a 9-ball on the table. Otherwise, it just looks like a game of rotation. And, I thought it much less likely for you to prefer my 2nd or 3rd suggestions. In any event, it's an improvement.<hr /></blockquote>I'm pretty happy with the drill now that several people have had good input. I thought about your idea, and I understand your concern, but I still prefer the drill the way it is.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>The only other thing I can see is using a spread of 5 numbers in the table, for example, use 0-5, 6-10, 11-15, etc.<hr /></blockquote>I tried that in the first draft, but the resulting spread and match with the A-D ratings did not seem very appropriate. You may notice the scales are skewed to both ends.

Thanks again for all of your suggestions,
Dave

PS: Here's the link to the revised document (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/nine-ball_drill.pdf).

1Time
10-24-2007, 12:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> I'm just saying that in a drill the goal is to improve the skills in an organized and measurable way while in the game the goal is winning by using those improved skills but not necessarily trying to measure the individual skills you are utilizing. <hr /></blockquote>

That sounds good to me. However, nothing that's been discussed could change dr_dave's drill into a 9-ball game. And so your observation seems moot. A main difference between various drills is the skills involved and what emphasis or importance is placed on each. Some drills focus on a smaller number of skills while others focus on a larger number of skills, and that's good. And, anytime a skill is measured, there is an aspect of competition. Comparing is what measurements are for, and that's true whether considered in terms of gain and loss, or win or lose.

dr_dave's 9-ball drill is not a rotation drill. It's not even called a rotation drill. Yes, rotation involves skills used in 9-ball, but his drill is a 9-ball drill, and as such it should include aspects more in common with 9-ball than just rotation. dr_dave's drill is also billed to evaluate one's 9-ball performance, except for safety play. It therefore stands to reason that it should include several aspects and skills used in the game of 9-ball, and not just rotation.

Perhaps this will help. Say for example the game of 9-ball is made up of 10 skills. There could be 10 drills, one for each skill that focuses on each of these skills. There also could be many other drills that use any number and combination of these 10 skills, and each of all of these drills could be measured. And, because each can be measured, each of these drills would have a competitive aspect to it, whether considered in terms of gain and loss, or win and lose. For example, say I shot a 5 out of 10 on a bank drill yesterday, and today I shot a 7 out of 10. I could say today I gained, or today I won. Or, for example, another player shoots the same drill and says I shot a 3 out of 10 yesterday, and a 2 out of 10 today. I could say I beat that player on both days. Or, he's losing while I'm gaining.

dr_dave
10-24-2007, 01:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>Record the total number of balls pocketed without a scratch after each rack.<hr /></blockquote>Are you implying the run should continue after a scratch on a non-break shot?

Currently, a scratch on the break is allowed, where any balls pocketed are spotted. However, I consider a scratch on any subsequent shot to be the same as a miss. Don't you (and others) think this is appropriate?

Thanks,
Dave

1Time
10-24-2007, 02:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>You are right. The first paragraph did need a little work. I made it much more clear, and even added an example.<hr /></blockquote>

The description now looks great. I don't think most will need the following included, but I suppose a few would find it necessary. Good example and explanation though.

"Total the scores for all 5 or 10 racks and assign a rating per the table below. For example, if you pocket the 1-ball, 2-ball, 3-ball, and 9-ball (e.g., with a 4-ball combo), and then miss the 4-ball, your score for that rack would be 5 (4 balls plus an extra point for the 9-ball). If you get this same score for 5 racks, your total would be 25 and your rating would be “5” (or “C” or “intermediate”)."

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I'm pretty happy with the drill now that several people have had good input. I thought about your idea, and I understand your concern, but I still prefer the drill the way it is.<hr /></blockquote>

And I'm sure the vast majority won't think a thing less of your drill without a 9-ball on the table. And the very few who would think to bring the 9 back up, would probably go ahead and do it anyway and to no detriment to the drill or evaluation.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I tried that in the first draft, but the resulting spread and match with the A-D ratings did not seem very appropriate. You may notice the scales are skewed to both ends.<hr /></blockquote>

I'm sure you're right. As an aside, the addition of the extra point for the 9-ball means the better the player is, the more likely it is the 9-ball will be made and the more likely it is the potential 5 or 10 extra points will be scored. This should help better distinguish the better players from the lesser players and make the evaluation more true to the game of 9-ball.

---------------

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Are you implying the run should continue after a scratch on a non-break shot?<hr /></blockquote>

No. Actually, I was just suggesting a re-write of that paragraph and did not consider whether shooting should continue or not at any time a scratch is made.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>Currently, a scratch on the break is allowed, where any balls pocketed are spotted. However, I consider a scratch on any subsequent shot to be the same as a miss. Don't you (and others) think this is appropriate? <hr /></blockquote>

Now that I'm thinking about scratching and it's role in 9-ball, I'd say it's more appropriate to penalize a scratch on the break with the conclusion of the rack and no points. However, if scratching at any other time, the points should count and the rack should conclude. I realize that seems very harsh as compared to the current break rule, however this is far more true to the game of 9-ball than rewarding a scratch on the break with ball-in-hand and a second chance to score 10 points.

And, at the very least if rewarding a scratch on the break with ball-in-hand, there should be some kind of penalty beyond spotting any made balls and not counting them. For example, penalize that person's score for 5 points and have them continue shooting with ball-in-hand. Most would probably find that a little more palatable and yet more true to the game than the current break rule.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>Thanks,
Dave<hr /></blockquote>

No problem, it's all in fun.

1Time
10-25-2007, 12:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> However, if scratching at any other time, the points should count and the rack should conclude.<hr /></blockquote>

Correction:
What I meant here is, if scratching at any other time (other than the break), the points made previous to the scratch should count and the rack should conclude.

dr_dave
10-25-2007, 08:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> However, if scratching at any other time, the points should count and the rack should conclude.<hr /></blockquote>

Correction:
What I meant here is, if scratching at any other time (other than the break), the points made previous to the scratch should count and the rack should conclude.<hr /></blockquote>I'm glad you agree, because that's the way it is described in the drill document (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/nine-ball_drill.pdf) (see the last bullet).

Regards,
Dave

Ralph_Kramden
10-27-2007, 08:46 PM
Dr. Dave - I know safety play is not addressed in your 9-ball drill but maybe you could consider this in your scoring system.

There are times that it would be impossible to run out because of ball clusters. The drill is for shot making, position play and breaking clusters. At times even breaking clusters of balls won't leave you a shot if you get a bad roll just as in a real game situations.

My suggestion is this - If it is impossible to run out the player has the option to play a safety for an additional point. The safety must be one that the object ball can not be contacted without kicking off a rail.

For example, if you pockect the 1, 2 and 3 ball and the 4 ball is in an impossible situation to pocket, you can play a safety on it. If you can hit any part of the ball directly after the safety play you would not receive a point just as if it had been missed. If the ball is hidden so it must be kicked at off a rail you get a point just as if it were pocketed.

In either case your run would end and you would be credited for the 3 pocketed balls and awarded an additional point if the safety was one that the ball could not be directly contacted.

I think this type of practice would be just as effective and would be a drill that would give the player a better evaluation of his skill in real game situations.

Ralph_Kramden
10-28-2007, 08:06 AM
Just another thought on the drill.

I know this is a little different than how the scoring is suggested but this is what I have done in the past when practicing 9 ball. I have never used a scoring system before.

Using the Dr. Daves scoring system I have been spotting the 9 ball if it goes on the break or or on a combo. I keep shooting until I miss. I give myself no score for an early 9 but get 2 points for it if I run out.

What I do then is circle the number of balls made on the chart. The circle stands for pocketing the 9 before running out. It's like circleing a birdie on a golf scorecard. If I make the 9 on the break and run up to the five and miss I write down 5 and circle it. If I run out the rack I write down 10 and circle it.

The reason I do this is that if playing for a dime or 2 in a real game I am always looking for a way to pocket the nine. In the drill then the 9 ball is always present and could be pocketed any time. I always look at lots of ways to try to pocket the nine.

When I add my scores at the end of the 10 racks I get a total and then count any circles on the card to add to it. I may get a small gain in my total but if I can only run 2 balls per rack it helps my self esteem. I don't get many circles.

Anyone got a thought on this?

dr_dave
10-28-2007, 05:50 PM
Thank you for the suggestion. You make a good point.

There are other drills specifically designed to help people practice and evaluate their safety play. I prefer to have this drill maintain focus on the offensive skills.

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph_Kramden:</font><hr> Dr. Dave - I know safety play is not addressed in your 9-ball drill but maybe you could consider this in your scoring system.

There are times that it would be impossible to run out because of ball clusters. The drill is for shot making, position play and breaking clusters. At times even breaking clusters of balls won't leave you a shot if you get a bad roll just as in a real game situations.

My suggestion is this - If it is impossible to run out the player has the option to play a safety for an additional point. The safety must be one that the object ball can not be contacted without kicking off a rail.

For example, if you pockect the 1, 2 and 3 ball and the 4 ball is in an impossible situation to pocket, you can play a safety on it. If you can hit any part of the ball directly after the safety play you would not receive a point just as if it had been missed. If the ball is hidden so it must be kicked at off a rail you get a point just as if it were pocketed.

In either case your run would end and you would be credited for the 3 pocketed balls and awarded an additional point if the safety was one that the ball could not be directly contacted.

I think this type of practice would be just as effective and would be a drill that would give the player a better evaluation of his skill in real game situations.
<hr /></blockquote>

dr_dave
10-28-2007, 05:55 PM
I still like the idea of rewarding an early 9-ball, even if the rack isn't run (as long as the remainder of the rack is still attempted). I can see the value of re-spotting the 9-ball so the rack ends with the 9-ball (with a break-and-run), but I like the easy flow and scoring of the current drill (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/nine-ball_drill.pdf).

Thanks again for your ideas,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph_Kramden:</font><hr> Just another thought on the drill.

I know this is a little different than how the scoring is suggested but this is what I have done in the past when practicing 9 ball. I have never used a scoring system before.

Using the Dr. Daves scoring system I have been spotting the 9 ball if it goes on the break or or on a combo. I keep shooting until I miss. I give myself no score for an early 9 but get 2 points for it if I run out.

What I do then is circle the number of balls made on the chart. The circle stands for pocketing the 9 before running out. It's like circleing a birdie on a golf scorecard. If I make the 9 on the break and run up to the five and miss I write down 5 and circle it. If I run out the rack I write down 10 and circle it.

The reason I do this is that if playing for a dime or 2 in a real game I am always looking for a way to pocket the nine. In the drill then the 9 ball is always present and could be pocketed any time. I always look at lots of ways to try to pocket the nine.

When I add my scores at the end of the 10 racks I get a total and then count any circles on the card to add to it. I may get a small gain in my total but if I can only run 2 balls per rack it helps my self esteem. I don't get many circles.

Anyone got a thought on this? <hr /></blockquote>

Ralph_Kramden
10-29-2007, 04:32 PM
Dr. Dave - I have been doing the drill as you suggested. I guess I just have a problem doing a 9 ball drill without seeing a 9 ball on the table.

If the 9 goes in on the break it feels like I'm playing 7 ball or something... not that there is anything wrong with that... but it is a nine ball drill.

I think I will keep on using your scoring system but will spot an early 9 ball and circle the number of balls made. I can then still look for combos and kiss shots to make the chee$e ball.

If I ever score 102 points can I send my scorecard to you for an autograph? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Counting the number of circled scores in ten racks with more than 5 fingers would be a bonus in my book.

1Time
10-29-2007, 04:56 PM
Ralph_Kramden,

All you need to do is bring the 9-ball up and spot it in place of the highest numbered ball on the table. That's not provided for in dr_dave's drill as a matter of keeping the rules simple. However, doing so does not change the drill at all so long as you only score the 9-ball for 2 points once per rack.

dr_dave
10-29-2007, 04:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> Ralph_Kramden,

All you need to do is bring the 9-ball up and spot it in place of the highest numbered ball on the table. That's not provided for in dr_dave's drill as a matter of keeping the rules simple. However, doing so does not change the drill at all so long as you only score the 9-ball for 2 points once per rack. <hr /></blockquote>
Excellent answer! Thanks.

Regards,
Dave

Warbler
10-29-2007, 07:59 PM
man, I tried the drill twice. the first time I got a 12. The second time, I got a 16. I have been play pool since I was a little kid(I am 33 now). I thought I was getting pretty good at pool. But your drill rates me a one. I guess I'm not as good as I thought I was. I feel pretty lousy about this. Maybe its because I don't play 9 ball that much. I prefer straight pool. Oh well, I guess I need a lot more practice. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

EDIT: Now really feel lousy I tried the drill again and nothing went right. I scratched 5 times(3 on break shots). I couldn't sink anything on the break. I missed easy shots. I sucked. I got a 10, another rating of 1. I almost feel like giving up the game of pool

Ralph_Kramden
10-29-2007, 08:57 PM
1Time... Why the H... didn't I think of that? All I was thinking was to spot the 9 to get it back on the table. Replacement of the highest ball with the 9 would do the same thing. Scoring would be the same as the drill was written if the 9 counted as 2 points only the first time pocketed. Good thinking.

Dr. Dave... Thanks for the drill. I've practiced 9 ball for years without really using a scoreing system. I now find that I can make the cueball on every break. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Really though I think if everyone would use this drill and looked at some of your articles it would greatly improve their 9 ball skills. Stateing in the drill that the 9 ball replace the highest ball if it pocketed early would not be a bad idea but really wouldn't matter. Just voiceing my preference because that's the only ball that matters in a real game and I (and others) always think about ways to pocket just that ball.

The difference between an 'A' player and a 'C' player that can pocket balls very well is the way they think. 'C' players try to pocket all balls. 'A' players pocket makeable balls or they either duck or leave tough shots.
I think using your drill will help me improve but I still think I will give myself a point if I can make a GOOD hook if I have an impossible shot because of a bad roll. IMO I don't feel this qualifies as a penalty by not getting at least a chance for another point. Playing this way would not change the scoring at all and would make you think about where you need to get location to play a safety if the balls are tied up. A good safety probably would allow you to keep shooting with BIH in a real game situation.

Thanks for all the information you have passed on to us dummies.

dr_dave
10-29-2007, 10:41 PM
Here's a good positive interpretation of low scores: you have lots of room for improvement. The drill will help you improve and allow you track your improvement over time. Good luck with your "opportunity" for improvement.

Regards,
Dave
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Warbler:</font><hr> man, I tried the drill twice. the first time I got a 12. The second time, I got a 16. I have been play pool since I was a little kid(I am 33 now). I thought I was getting pretty good at pool. But your drill rates me a one. I guess I'm not as good as I thought I was. I feel pretty lousy about this. Maybe its because I don't play 9 ball that much. I prefer straight pool. Oh well, I guess I need a lot more practice. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

EDIT: Now really feel lousy I tried the drill again and nothing went right. I scratched 5 times(3 on break shots). I couldn't sink anything on the break. I missed easy shots. I sucked. I got a 10, another rating of 1. I almost feel like giving up the game of pool <hr /></blockquote>

dr_dave
10-29-2007, 10:43 PM
You're welcome, and thanks again for your ideas and kind words.

Regards,
Dave
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph_Kramden:</font><hr> 1Time... Why the H... didn't I think of that? All I was thinking was to spot the 9 to get it back on the table. Replacement of the highest ball with the 9 would do the same thing. Scoring would be the same as the drill was written if the 9 counted as 2 points only the first time pocketed. Good thinking.

Dr. Dave... Thanks for the drill. I've practiced 9 ball for years without really using a scoreing system. I now find that I can make the cueball on every break. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Really though I think if everyone would use this drill and looked at some of your articles it would greatly improve their 9 ball skills. Stateing in the drill that the 9 ball replace the highest ball if it pocketed early would not be a bad idea but really wouldn't matter. Just voiceing my preference because that's the only ball that matters in a real game and I (and others) always think about ways to pocket just that ball.

The difference between an 'A' player and a 'C' player that can pocket balls very well is the way they think. 'C' players try to pocket all balls. 'A' players pocket makeable balls or they either duck or leave tough shots.
I think using your drill will help me improve but I still think I will give myself a point if I can make a GOOD hook if I have an impossible shot because of a bad roll. IMO I don't feel this qualifies as a penalty by not getting at least a chance for another point. Playing this way would not change the scoring at all and would make you think about where you need to get location to play a safety if the balls are tied up. A good safety probably would allow you to keep shooting with BIH in a real game situation.

Thanks for all the information you have passed on to us dummies.
<hr /></blockquote>