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1Time
10-18-2007, 06:12 PM
9-Ball Performance Rating Exercise

Object: Complete this exercise to determine your 9-ball performance rating.

Scoring = Performance Rating:
100 or more = Pro
80 - 99 = A / Advanced
60 - 79 = B / High Intermediate
40 - 59 = C / Intermediate
20 - 39 = C / Low Intermediate
10 - 19 = D / Novice
0 - 9 = D / Beginner

Instructions:

1. Overview:
You break a 9-ball rack and continue play as instructed below. The exercise concludes immediately upon you or your simulated pro opponent scoring a total of 100 or more points. Keep a running total of both scores in writing.

2. Break:
No push out. Whether you are hooked or not after breaking, shoot the next shot or forfeit the game. If you forfeit, your opponent scores 7 points and see paragraph 1.

3. 9-ball:
You legally pocket the 9-ball and score 10 points. See paragraph 1.

4. Balls 1 - 8:
No points are scored for legally pocketing the balls numbered 1 through 8.

5. Foul:
This only applys when the previous shot was not missed.
a. You fouled and left a hard run-out for a pro. Your opponent scores 6 points. See paragraph 1.
b. You fouled and left a run-out that is not hard for a pro. Your opponent scores 18 points. See paragraph 1.

6. Miss:
a. You missed and left a hard run-out for a pro (no hook). Your opponent scores 6 points. See paragraph 1.
b. You missed and left a run-out that is not hard for a pro (no hook). Your opponent scores 9 points. See paragraph 1.

7. You Shot a Safety (Hook):
You shot a safety (hook). You score 3, 5, 7, or 9 points depending on how likely or not it is for that shot to result in you winning that game against a pro.
a. If 7 or 9 points are scored, see paragraph 1.
b. If 3 or 5 points are scored and the exercise is not concluded, see paragraph 8 below.

8. Shooting from a Safety / Hook:
When shooting from a safety (hook), shoot as though your opponent left you that shot.
a. You fouled and left a hard run-out for a pro with ball in hand. Your opponent scores 3 points. See paragraph 1.
b. You fouled and left a run-out that is not hard for a pro with ball in hand. Your opponent scores 9 points. See paragraph 1.
c. You made a good hit and left a hard run-out for a pro (no hook). Your opponent scores 3 points. See paragraph 1.
d. You made a good hit and left a run-out that is not hard for a pro. Your opponent scores 7 points. See paragraph 1.
e. You made a good hit and left a safety (hook), see paragraph 7.

wolfdancer
10-19-2007, 02:33 AM
I see a few "holes" in the system, but I'll leave it to better players then I to take it to task.
Most good 9 ball players that I know just play the "ghost"
So... subjective rulings on the merits of your safeties, or how hard it would to get out from your miss. If you ever saw what I can do with a golf scorecard...you wouldn't want me to rate my opponent's chances
I ain't knocking it...it's just a little different way to keep score for solitary practice, that does incorporate scoring for safety play.
This might be a dumb question but after I play this lock up safety on the 1 ball, and award myself 9 points...it looks like if he couldn't hit the ball from there in my judgment,
It's dead sure that that I'm going to have just as hard a time`...my 9 point safety is almost sure to backfire and cost me points.
Another thing I don't quite understand...why would I forfeit on purpose after the break, and give up 7 points when I can just miss on purpose, and make sure I leave him a 6 pt run out?
Well, I haven't even tried it yet...so I shouldn't even comment.....I better stick with 8 ball
It's also late at night and I can feel the brain wheels grinding to a halt

Ace
10-19-2007, 08:53 AM
I feel if you are going to rate yourself playing 9-Ball, you would need to keep a record of games won and lost ratio in your last 100 games or so. Remember, your rating or winning percentage will only be relative to those you have played.
I play in the Dallas SWEL Leagues which is governed by the BCA ranking system. There are around 50 members (mostly "C Players") in my local area (Longview, Tx) and I am ranked as an "A Player". Is playing consistently against 50 or so members week after week enough to determine a players ranking?

dr_dave
10-19-2007, 09:12 AM
1Time,

Good job! Thank you for sharing this.

The only limitation I see is the difficulty and potential inconsistency in how people judge the qualitatives (e.g., how "hard" it is to run out, and how "likely" a safety is to result in a win).

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> 9-Ball Performance Rating Exercise

Object: Complete this exercise to determine your 9-ball performance rating.

Scoring = Performance Rating:
100 or more = Pro
80 - 99 = A / Advanced
60 - 79 = B / High Intermediate
40 - 59 = C / Intermediate
20 - 39 = C / Low Intermediate
10 - 19 = D / Novice
0 - 9 = D / Beginner

Instructions:

1. Overview:
You break a 9-ball rack and continue play as instructed below. The exercise concludes immediately upon you or your simulated pro opponent scoring a total of 100 or more points. Keep a running total of both scores in writing.

2. Break:
No push out. Whether you are hooked or not after breaking, shoot the next shot or forfeit the game. If you forfeit, your opponent scores 7 points and see paragraph 1.

3. 9-ball:
You legally pocket the 9-ball and score 10 points. See paragraph 1.

4. Balls 1 - 8:
No points are scored for legally pocketing the balls numbered 1 through 8.

5. Foul:
This only applys when the previous shot was not missed.
a. You fouled and left a hard run-out for a pro. Your opponent scores 6 points. See paragraph 1.
b. You fouled and left a run-out that is not hard for a pro. Your opponent scores 18 points. See paragraph 1.

6. Miss:
a. You missed and left a hard run-out for a pro (no hook). Your opponent scores 6 points. See paragraph 1.
b. You missed and left a run-out that is not hard for a pro (no hook). Your opponent scores 9 points. See paragraph 1.

7. You Shot a Safety (Hook):
You shot a safety (hook). You score 3, 5, 7, or 9 points depending on how likely or not it is for that shot to result in you winning that game against a pro.
a. If 7 or 9 points are scored, see paragraph 1.
b. If 3 or 5 points are scored and the exercise is not concluded, see paragraph 8 below.

8. Shooting from a Safety / Hook:
When shooting from a safety (hook), shoot as though your opponent left you that shot.
a. You fouled and left a hard run-out for a pro with ball in hand. Your opponent scores 3 points. See paragraph 1.
b. You fouled and left a run-out that is not hard for a pro with ball in hand. Your opponent scores 9 points. See paragraph 1.
c. You made a good hit and left a hard run-out for a pro (no hook). Your opponent scores 3 points. See paragraph 1.
d. You made a good hit and left a run-out that is not hard for a pro. Your opponent scores 7 points. See paragraph 1.
e. You made a good hit and left a safety (hook), see paragraph 7. <hr /></blockquote>

Fran Crimi
10-19-2007, 09:56 AM
I think it's a really well done exercise. I also think it has no bearing on a player's ability to compete, and that's an important factor that should be kept in mind when rating players.

I'm sure we've all come across the player who practices really well but competes poorly. That type of player would probably do well in this exercise. However, it doesn't rank them superior in competition.

Fran

Jager85
10-19-2007, 11:22 AM
How many points are scored for a break and run? To my understanding it is only 10 for the nine ball. So a B&amp;R is novice level shooting?

Fran Crimi
10-19-2007, 02:06 PM
Why are you asking me??

1Time
10-19-2007, 03:00 PM
Great input and criticism so far, sure to help make this a better exercise. I'm looking forward to taking the time this weekend to reply to everyone and to making revisions as we see best. Please, everyone, don't be shy to criticize or suggest changes. For the most part that's why I posted it. Thanks

Bob_Jewett
10-19-2007, 03:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> ... Please, everyone, don't be shy to criticize or suggest changes. For the most part that's why I posted it. Thanks <hr /></blockquote>
Before the final version, be sure to use a speling chekker.

I think the scoring system is too complicated. Maybe it needs to be to get in the measure of defensive ability, but I wonder if defense can't be measured in a more direct way. I recall a game that was only safeties (called "Hook"?) that might be adapted for the purpose.

I would prefer something based on a progressive goal like progressive practice, since that tends to give a faster, more accurate measure of skill, but I don't see how to adapt your exercise.

craigstevens
10-19-2007, 03:52 PM
Fatty taught me his rating systems many moons ago. You go out with a C note in your pocket. You come in late at night to sleep, pull out 3 C notes, you are a great 9 ball player. Pull out one thin dime, you suck and will be sleeping in your car tomorrow night.

1Time
10-20-2007, 12:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I see a few "holes" in the system, <hr /></blockquote>
Right, and even before drafting it I realized there always would be holes, but also that it likely could be improved by posting it here.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Most good 9 ball players that I know just play the "ghost"<hr /></blockquote>
I'm not familiar with playing the ghost. How does that go? Perhaps that could be used to improve this exercise.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> So... subjective rulings on the merits of your safeties, or how hard it would to get out from your miss. If you ever saw what I can do with a golf scorecard...you wouldn't want me to rate my opponent's chances<hr /></blockquote>
Intentionally skewing or cheating the score up or down would only hurt the user since it's an exercise and not a competition. This would be like cheating while you are practicing, not a recommended method of improving at anything except maybe cheating.

Making the exercise more objective would be better though, but not if that made the exercise more complicated than it is. But that's definitely something to try and improve. Ideally the exercise would have no subjective aspect to it and players could use it to determine exactly how their performance compared to others who used it, like a direct head to head competition. But while it's not reasonable to expect anything like that, I am hopeful players eventually will be able to use this exercise to determine their level of play, a more generalized measure of performance.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>I ain't knocking it...it's just a little different way to keep score for solitary practice, that does incorporate scoring for safety play.<hr /></blockquote>
No problem. Incorporating as much of the defensive aspect of 9-ball as I could into this exercise was a major objective.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> This might be a dumb question but after I play this lock up safety on the 1 ball, and award myself 9 points...it looks like if he couldn't hit the ball from there in my judgment,
It's dead sure that that I'm going to have just as hard a time`...my 9 point safety is almost sure to backfire and cost me points.<hr /></blockquote>
An example of scoring 9 points after shooting a safety: the CB is hooked at one end of the table. Balls are in the middle of the table. The low numbered ball is at the other end of table aligned with the 9-ball for a shot the player is sure to make. And the player decides there is no likely way a pro could foul by shooting any ball(s) that would interfere with the ball in hand win on the next shot.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>Another thing I don't quite understand...why would I forfeit on purpose after the break, and give up 7 points when I can just miss on purpose, and make sure I leave him a 6 pt run out?
<hr /></blockquote>

Excellent point. I will address this in my next revision. Thanks

1Time
10-20-2007, 02:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ace:</font><hr> I feel if you are going to rate yourself playing 9-Ball, you would need to keep a record of games won and lost ratio in your last 100 games or so. Remember, your rating or winning percentage will only be relative to those you have played. <hr /></blockquote>
I think you make an excellent point here, Ace. A win / loss aspect is built in to this exercise. It's a race to 100 points over several games, and those points are determined primarily by winning or losing. And, the level of your opponent in this exercise is known, just like in league play. And I agree, 100+ games is a far better measure of one's 9-ball playing level than for example 15 games. And so repeating the 9-Ball Performance Rating Exercise on different days would be a better indicator than only using it once. I will include a statement addressing this in my next revision. Thanks

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ace:</font><hr> I play in the Dallas SWEL Leagues which is governed by the BCA ranking system. There are around 50 members (mostly "C Players") in my local area (Longview, Tx) and I am ranked as an "A Player". Is playing consistently against 50 or so members week after week enough to determine a players ranking? <hr /></blockquote>
If the BCA gave you an A rating out of 50 players, then apparently the BCA must think 50 is enough. Now whether you would rate as an A player in a much larger field, I don't know. One of the BCA guys here should know. In any event, I hope this exercise eventually would help players answer questions like this.

1Time
10-20-2007, 02:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> 1Time,

Good job! Thank you for sharing this.

The only limitation I see is the difficulty and potential inconsistency in how people judge the qualitatives (e.g., how "hard" it is to run out, and how "likely" a safety is to result in a win).

Regards,
Dave<hr /></blockquote>

You're welcome. Of course people will make these decisions differently, and I had not before considered that a show stopper. However, I now am considering this limitation to be a big obstacle. Perhaps it would be better for these decisions to be determined by the roll of a dice or flip of a coin. I will take another look at this later on and am open for suggestions. Thanks

1Time
10-20-2007, 02:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I think it's a really well done exercise. I also think it has no bearing on a player's ability to compete, and that's an important factor that should be kept in mind when rating players.

I'm sure we've all come across the player who practices really well but competes poorly. That type of player would probably do well in this exercise. However, it doesn't rank them superior in competition.

Fran

<hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for pointing this out, Fran. I of course admit this exercise should not be considered the best predictor of everyone's likely success in direct competition. However, I do suggest that it could be used to help determine one's level of play in practice, which in turn many would find useful in helping to predict their potential play in competition. For example, a B player in league play who normally shoots a B level with this exercise, scores a C level of play with this exercise in preparation for league play. That could signal a problem with that player's game and need for more preparation. But anyway I now see the need to address the limitations you pointed out.

And the same is true even with competition. Consider the following ways a player could compete.

1. With an opponent, no stakes
2. In a league
3. In a small stakes tournament
4. In a large stakes tournament
5. For small stakes outside of a tournament
6. For large stakes outside of a tournament

Not everyone will perform at the same level in all of these, but to varying degrees one's success at competing in one can indicate one's likely success in another.

And consider the following ways a player could practice.
1. With an opponent.
2. With a simulated opponent.
3. Without an opponent.

Of course a primary reason many practice is to prepare for competition, and so I suggest that there is to varying degrees among players a correlation between practice and success at competition. That said, I suggest most could consider practice with a simulated opponent such as with this exercise to be a useful means for preparing for and predicting one's likely success in competition.

1Time
10-20-2007, 04:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jager85:</font><hr> How many points are scored for a break and run? To my understanding it is only 10 for the nine ball. So a B&amp;R is novice level shooting? <hr /></blockquote>

Right, legally pocketing the 9-ball is 10 points, and that includes a break and run. However, the thing is a win in 9-ball should count the same whether it's a B&amp;R or otherwise because that's how 9-ball is played. Of course I do not consider it at all likely for one who would normally shoot at the novice level with this exercise to B&amp;R. Such a level of play very likely would be accompanied by higher scoring and a higher performance level than novice. Granted, these are fairly arbitray divisions between performance levels, and this exercise has yet to be tested. And so I appreciate your dead on observation, Jager85. Thanks

1Time
10-20-2007, 05:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>
Before the final version, be sure to use a speling chekker. <hr /></blockquote>

Spell checker - check.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>I think the scoring system is too complicated. <hr /></blockquote>

I agree; the scoring system is too complicated.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>Maybe it needs to be to get in the measure of defensive ability, but I wonder if defense can't be measured in a more direct way. I recall a game that was only safeties (called "Hook"?) that might be adapted for the purpose.<hr /></blockquote>

Great input. The exercise definitely needs a simpler and more realistic measure of defense.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>I would prefer something based on a progressive goal like progressive practice, since that tends to give a faster, more accurate measure of skill, but I don't see how to adapt your exercise. <hr /></blockquote>

I don't know what this is. Are you suggesting an increase in the consequences of a bad safety and reward of a good one as a game progresses? Thanks

BigRigTom
10-21-2007, 09:58 AM
I agree with Bob, it's too complicated to keep track of while I try to concentrate on shooting, I would need a score keeper to do it for me if I want to shoot my best. I just don't have that multitasking thing down yet I guess.

When you start including safety play you should allow for several situations....like...since you are most likely doing this drill while practicing alone you are also your opponent....so you will have
1. an unintended hook where opponent gives up ball in hand
2. an unintended hook where the opponent manages to make a legal hit anyway.
3. an intended safty play resulting in a hook where opponent gives up ball in hand.
4. an intended safty play where the opponent manages to make a legal hit anyway.

All 4 of the scenarios are very common in 9 ball even at the Pro Level.

1Time
10-21-2007, 05:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> I agree with Bob, it's too complicated to keep track of while I try to concentrate on shooting, I would need a score keeper to do it for me if I want to shoot my best. I just don't have that multitasking thing down yet I guess. <hr /></blockquote>
I agree, scoring should not get in the way of one's shooing. Much better would be more simplified scoring that can be done at the end of one's inning or game. That way it will better simulate the time one waits while the other shoots or the time before the next break, instead of interfering with one's shooting.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr>When you start including safety play you should allow for several situations....like...since you are most likely doing this drill while practicing alone you are also your opponent....so you will have
1. an unintended hook where opponent gives up ball in hand
2. an unintended hook where the opponent manages to make a legal hit anyway.
3. an intended safty play resulting in a hook where opponent gives up ball in hand.
4. an intended safty play where the opponent manages to make a legal hit anyway.

All 4 of the scenarios are very common in 9 ball even at the Pro Level. <hr /></blockquote>

I will be sure to account for these aspects of safety play in the revision. Great input, BigRigTom. Thanks

Bob_Jewett
10-22-2007, 12:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> ... progressive practice ... I don't know what this is. ...
<hr /></blockquote>
The general idea behind progressive practice (and exercises) is that the better you do, the harder you make the drill. You do the drill, continuously making it easier/harder as you fail/succeed in doing the goal, and at the end of the session your "score" is how hard you have managed to make the shot. This is explained in the Billiards Digest article from December 1992 on the page http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html
There are several other columns there that describe other progressive practice drills. "Progressive 9 ball" from Ron Shepard is a good example: break and remove all but N balls. Run out in order. If you run N balls 2 out of 3 times, increase N. If you fail, reduce N. This is like a handicapped game of Ghost.

1Time
10-22-2007, 01:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>
The general idea behind progressive practice (and exercises) is that the better you do, the harder you make the drill. You do the drill, continuously making it easier/harder as you fail/succeed in doing the goal, and at the end of the session your "score" is how hard you have managed to make the shot. This is explained in the Billiards Digest article from December 1992 on the page http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html
There are several other columns there that describe other progressive practice drills. "Progressive 9 ball" from Ron Shepard is a good example: break and remove all but N balls. Run out in order. If you run N balls 2 out of 3 times, increase N. If you fail, reduce N. This is like a handicapped game of Ghost. <hr /></blockquote>

Thank you, Bob_Jewett. Off the top I too can't see a way of incorporating a progressive aspect into this exercise.



Anyone know how the game "Hook" is played?

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