View Full Version : A question or so for those who oppose torture?
First off let me say this.
I oppose torture.
Nor, here is the conundrum?
What IS torture...and if you called the shots exactly WHERE would YOU draw the line between acceptable interrogation techniques and unacceptable?
10-19-2007, 12:06 PM
Who's Nor? Levels of interrogation/torture should be dependent on what is perceived as the possible gain. No torture or undue pressure to find out who ate the last Oreo, massive pressure to find out where/when many people could be killed or seriously injured. Of course, there are many types of torture. Reading your posts happens to be torture for me most of the time, for example. Thankfully, I can choose to ignore them at will, so only when I'm feeling a little too comfortable will I click on a thread that you started. It also helps if it has an innocuous title like this one.
10-19-2007, 12:19 PM
Yawn,you need less sugar.
10-19-2007, 01:01 PM
Reading your posts happens to be torture for me most of the time.....
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I think people might have similar thought about mine, many times. I know I can't reread them
So, you all oppose it but none have a clue WTF it actually is that you oppose?
10-19-2007, 01:31 PM
Listen Meat Head,I know what torture is,and I do not oppose the use of it under certain circumstances,I just found the question to be stupid.Can you grasp the fact,that know one is required to respond to your canine eminities?
Yes, and you comprehend the fact that you prove yourselves to mindless Stalinist partyites incapable of independent thought and the gangland tactics used by the neoleft thugs here do not intimidate me nor depress me nor worry me.
You are free to live in blissful ignorance and I will support that choice.
I will not allow a group of fascist wannabes to silence dissent from their Borglike mindset.
Now, if you don't like me...fine.
If you choose not to participate in discussion...fine.
Stop thinking you have a right to control what topics are discussed and by whom.
There are people of intellect on this board who have been intimidated by the likes of you and your brownshirted buddies.
I sir am not.
You will find I treat people with the same respect they treat others, and you sir are an intolerant bigot.
If you don't want to continualy have your intelelctual arse handed to you then stop coming into threads with nothing to offer but sounds from your arse.
Put down the haterade and grown up.
JAY ZEUS KEY RICED where did this anti social crew come from.
10-19-2007, 02:20 PM
My definition of torture I'm sure, would differ from yours. It's like pornography...art to some...but as somebody once said....I can't define it, but I know it when I see it.
since it is your thread....shouldn't you as the original poster, give us your definition of torture?
All I know, from what I've read...like the Stanford Experiment, or even the Inquisition...that torture also affects the torturer, and leads to psychological disorders.
It seems to be controversial enough to be discussed lately in Congress...sorry, I can't provide that link for you.
10-19-2007, 02:42 PM
I'm not sure one can be both a mindless Stalinist partyite,
(actually the word you probably intended to write was apparatchik...unless partyite is also a Russian descriptive word? ) and a Fascist wanna be at the same time? Weren't those two groups on opposite sides in WWII?
While you are correct in your assertion that no one here has the right to determine what topic are discussed and by whom, I believe the board Admin has the right to put an end to the kind of name calling, personal attack type posts which have accelerated greatly since your arrival. I plead guilty, by the way.
I'm going to clean up my act, and if these slurs continue...present my case to the admin.
It should tell you something when even Ed finds fault with your posts. Ed and I probably couldn't agree on what to have for lunch....but you don't see him beginning a series of threads that are guaranteed to fan the flames here.
I believe that you have picked the wrong site(s) to begin those types of arguments, few, if any, are really interested in being reeducated in their politics by you, or Bamadog...but time will either prove me right, or wrong....
10-19-2007, 02:48 PM
My defintion....33 years of marriage to the same woman!!
Just kidding honey.....
10-19-2007, 03:06 PM
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I'm hoping the "little woman" doesn't read your posts
10-19-2007, 03:20 PM
I guess I'm lost here. Was there a thread I missed where everyone voted on whether they opposed torture or not? I know I didn't vote, so where did LWW come up with the idea that everyone here was opposed but didn't know what they were opposed to? Is this some type of Patrick logic? Will you enlighten me, LWW, or will torture be necessary?
As a side note, it may behoove you to get a dictionary and find out what some of the words that you use mean and how to use them in a sentence correctly. Just throwing a bunch of big words together doesn't fool me into believing that you are an intellectual.
Kudos, see...that is discussion.
First, let me describe why it needs a definition.
If one is allowed to redefine words at will then Orwell was right and all is lost.
The media and others have done that with the word "TORTURE" because if you poll the public it will fail miserably every time.
Next, if you read into these articles deep enough to find what they are calling "TORTURE" here are some things you will find that I don't believe is torture. Among them:
-Being yelled at.
-Being poked in the chest with a finger.
-Being in the presence of a dog.
-Being in the presence of a pig.
-Being questioned by a female.
-Being made to listen to the Star Spangled Banner.
-Being made to listen to loud music.
-Being made to view photos of 9/11 victims.
-Being made to stand in the corner.
-Being made to stay awake.
The use of these tactics is certainly widespread, and I myself have no issue with them. Others might, again, I don't.
The reasons tactics like this are used is that they are effective in breaking someone's morale and in making them see the actual effects of their acts. For someone who has working knowledge of the inside day to day workings of a group this can be awesomely effective. It takes time, but with the carrot and stick approach you will get good results. It's been proven over time.
A literate person would read the thread and see "those who oppose" and cipher out that if they weren't opposed then they weren't who I was asking.
If you want to render an opinion on the topic however I'm appreciative.
If you want to come in with another "BUSH EATS BABIES!" line as we so often seem then please don't muddy things up.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> Just throwing a bunch of big words together doesn't fool me into believing that you are an intellectual. <hr /></blockquote>
No, it doesn't. But, knowing WTF I'm talking about does.
Now, unless you have something to add or can disprove a point, please join the rest over on the bench while people who want to discuss the topic actually do so.
10-19-2007, 03:44 PM
Bill, I had already ruled out the "is it really FL" question...by the way, I like FL....
but now maybe, Patrick??????.....something to mull over this weekend
Now, what do I think is torture?
Good question, and I'm glad you asked me that.
Some no brainers are broken bones or bloodletting. Electrical shocks. Any type of unbearable pain disciplines.
Those tactics are extremely useful for one purpose and absolutely useless for another.
For political confessions and show trials they are most effective. Why? Give me a little time and a good interrogator can get the toughest SOB you ever met to confess to whatever they want them to.
The confession is useless as intel however. The fact that they said what you wanted them to say doesn't make it true. It will help you send people to the gulag but it won't get you want if what you want is actionable intel.
I do not believe that torture of these types is being conducted by orders from the top and I have seen no compelling evidence to change that opinion.
The reasons I say that are that for one it is useless in the big picture and we aren't putting them on trial so we aren't forcing confessions so it just doesn't make sense.
Secondly, and I am amazed that so few Americans understand this about our system, but per the USC and the USMJ no soldier has any legal obligation to follow an order from any officer to commit acts of torture.
An E5 sarge and tell the President to go pound salt and do it with impunity. Our military does not take an oath of allegiance to any individual or group including the president. An order in violation of the USC would m,ake that soldier a criminal if they carried it out.
This is taught to every recruit in basic, that you have no obligation to follow an invalid order and every obligation to disobey it and report it.
It's the only "GET OUT OF JAIL FREE" card you will ever get in the miltary.
10-19-2007, 03:56 PM
Bill, I keep being reminded here of "The Color Of Money"
"You're some piece of work, kid"
"But I'll tell you something, kiddo. You couldn't find Big Time if you had a road map."
"You walk into a shoe store with a hundred and fifty bucks, you come out with one shoe! We were working on five thousand! "
And my favorite:
"Vincent, get in the car, this is embarrassing. You're acting like some girl who got felt up at the drive-in."
Not directed at anybody in particular.... (my new non-confrontational persona) ...BUt, if that shoe fits...
Now, where I think we will get to the meat and potatoes of the topic.
Things like waterboarding?
I don't like it. If I had reason enough to believe an attack was imminent however and I had someone who could tell me I can't say that I wouldn't try it. I can't say that I would either. To be truly effective you would have to sell the idea that you were willing to kill them, and I wouldn't push it that far. Overall I'm leaning anti, but that's a tough one.
I had a discussion on another board and some people thought the following was torture but I thought it was brilliant.
High level detainees were driven in SUVs with darkened windows across the desert for hours with blindfolds on but actually just ended up in another building on the same base.
Inside the building it was made to look like a Kuwait army brig with faux Kuwaiti soldiers in Kuwaiti uniforms.
The perps were high level Iraqi Ba'athists who had lived comfy lives under Saddam.
They watched other "inmates" being drug by and taken down the hall followed by soundtracks of torture being conducted played at high volumes.
After a night the Americans would come and get them from the cell and take them down the hall to the "TORTURE" room explaining that since they had no useful info for the Americans they would now be turned over to the Kuwaitis for crimes during the 1st war.
Memories suddenly improved.
10-19-2007, 04:27 PM
33 years with the same woman is the exact opposite of bigamy. I think the technical term is 'monotony'.
10-19-2007, 04:36 PM
This is the way I see it...
Blah, blah, blah.
10-19-2007, 04:37 PM
Oh, I'm good! Blah, blah, blah...
10-19-2007, 04:44 PM
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10-19-2007, 06:59 PM
To bad,you are not one of the members with intellect,you should practice what you preach,and grow up. As far as not liking you,I have no reason to like you,or the infantile posts, coming from your mind set of hate. This is as nice as it gets.
So, you have nothing to add to the thread but instead prefer to resort to the tactics of a common troll?
This place is like walking thru the looking glass at times.
10-19-2007, 07:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> First off let me say this. I oppose torture. Period. Nor, here is the conundrum? What IS torture...and if you called the shots exactly WHERE would YOU draw the line between acceptable interrogation techniques and unacceptable? LWW<hr /></blockquote>I oppoze torture. However, in relation to human beings, i am in favor of torture in some (many actually) instances. Actually, what duz the bible say???? I will havta check. I'll be back. madMac.
10-19-2007, 07:12 PM
Want a kleenex?
10-19-2007, 07:24 PM
Anyone who oppozes all torture cannot be a christian. Here iz what the skeptic's annotated bible sez about torture in the bible. madMac.
Sometimes you just need to beat people for their own good.
The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly. Proverbs 20:30
.Some people should be beaten as as a punishment for their crimes.
And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten. Deuteronomy 25:2
It's always a good idea to beat fools. Beat them whenever you find them.
A fool's lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes. Proverbs 18:6
Judgments are prepared for scorners, and stripes for the back of fools. Proverbs 19:29
A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back. Proverbs 26:3
And slaves may be beaten, as long they survive for at least a day or two after the beating.
If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. Exodus 21:20-21
..Beating your children is a sure sign of parental love.
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes. Proverbs 13:24
And don't stop just because they cry.
Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying. Proverbs 19:18
..Beating your children will make them less foolish.
Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. Proverbs 22:15
The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame. Proverbs 29:15
.So beat them hard and often. Don't worry about hurting them. You may break a few bones and cause some brain damage, but it isn't going to kill them. And even if it does, they'll be better off. They'll thank you in heaven for beating the hell out of them.
Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. Proverbs 23:13-14
..The Bible has many examples of a good and proper use of torture. For example, David was "a man after God's own heart" (1 Samuel 13:14, Acts 13:22) and "did what was right in the sight of the Lord ... save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite" (1 Kings 15:5). Since he tortured the inhabitants of several cities, torture (at least in certain situations) must be okay with God.
And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under axes of iron, and made them pass through the brick-kiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. 2 Samuel 12:31
And he brought out the people that were in it, and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes. Even so dealt David with all the cities of the children of Ammon. 1 Chronicles 20:3
..Nehemiah, who is considered a good leader in the Bible, beat people and pulled out their hair.
And I contended with them, and cursed them, and smote certain of them, and plucked off their hair, and made them swear by God, saying, Ye shall not give your daughters unto their sons, nor take their daughters unto your sons, or for yourselves. Nehemiah 13:25
.At times, Jesus seemed to look favorably on torture. In his parables, for example, Jesus often spoke of torturing his enemies.
And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors. Matthew 18:34
And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 22:12-13
The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:50-51
The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. Luke 12:46-48
..The devils expected Jesus to torture them. (And Jesus didn't deny that he planned to do so.)
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? Matthew 8:29
Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. Mark 5:7
What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not. Luke 8:28
God uses a rod to beat those who disobey his commandments.
If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.Psalm 89:31-2
..At the end of the world, God will torture people until they want to die. But he will not let them die so that he can continue to torture them.
And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. Revelation 9:5-6
.But the ultimate use of torture, a torture a greater than which can not be conceived, is hell.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:41-42
If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. Matthew 18:8-9
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41
...hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:43-48
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:22-24
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever. Revelation 14:10-11
I haven't read that version, but I'd call it "The Idiot's Guide to the Bible", but you have no definition in your mind either?
10-20-2007, 05:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> I haven't read that version, but I'd call it "The Idiot's Guide to the Bible", but you have no definition in your mind either? LWW<hr /></blockquote>El -- Yes, i agree, its called the king james verzion. Of course u will be instantly able to point out even one little mistake in one little letter of anything quoted -- u pretty little fucken turd. madMac.
Do you eat with that mouth after talking like that?
All of these replies and only 1 actual opinion as I recall?
10-20-2007, 02:43 PM
Wow, you can actually say Fucken here on the CCB - not cool.
10-20-2007, 03:05 PM
Mac, don't let the insults suck you into the name-calling game. even when you win that,you lose in the eyes of anyone else reading the thread. And trying to argue the merits of a book that was rewritten in the 6th century, is an even more daunting task then trying to argue the merits of GWB, whose history has also been rewritten...we now have a kinder, gentler man, but a champion of freedom everywhere...in fact, like Gilgamesh, he is slowly being transformed into two thirds God, and one third Man.
I have chosen, instead to not trade banalities, but just to turn the other cheek ..after first dropping trou...
10-20-2007, 03:10 PM
an I fergots to add...it's a ***** torture every time GWB comes on TV....but luckily, we still are just watching tv and not the other way 'round yet and i got my remote handy to switch over to the Colbert report.... what i think this s-chip s**t really is...they're gonna stick it in out tv sets..and feed the data straight back to RNP
Yet the defs of what everyone is against is unknown?
10-21-2007, 04:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> Do you eat with that mouth after talking like that? All of these replies and only 1 actual opinion as I recall? LWW<hr /></blockquote>El Dubb -- My apologyz for that outburst. We had a BBQ (my wayward son had returned from afar) and i drank too much red wine -- i had turned a bucket of water into wine (sparkling shiraz az i recall). So i guess that i owe u dinner -- i will drag out my dvd of broke-back mountain -- and i will sleep on the wet patch. madMac.
10-21-2007, 04:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> an I fergots to add...it's a ***** torture every time GWB comes on TV....but luckily, we still are just watching tv and not the other way 'round yet and i got my remote handy to switch over to the Colbert report.... what i think this s-chip s**t really is...they're gonna stick it in out tv sets..and feed the data straight back to RNP<hr /></blockquote>Same here -- i immediately turn the channel when our prikk john howard kumz on tv. Karnt stand it/him. madMac.
Wine in moderation is one of my joys.
10-22-2007, 11:59 AM
Mac, torture, if done right can be justified. We're coming up soon on Guy Fawkes day (notorious leftist, liberal)...and it was only with torture that the nefarious plot was uncovered.Well, not exactly...
Even in them days the order had to be issued from the top...
"Fawkes was tortured over the next few days, after the King granted special permission to do so. James directed that the torture should be gentle at first, and then more severe. Sir William Wade, Lieutenant of the Tower of London at this time, supervised the torture and obtained Fawkes's confession. For three or four days Fawkes said nothing, let alone divulge the names of his co-conspirators. Only when he found out that they had proclaimed themselves by appearing in arms did he succumb. The torture only revealed the names of those conspirators who were already dead or whose names were known to the authorities. Some had fled to Dunchurch, Warwickshire, where they were killed or captured. On 31 January, Fawkes and a number of others implicated in the conspiracy were tried in Westminster Hall. After being found guilty, they were taken to Old Palace Yard in Westminster and St Paul's Yard, where they were hanged, drawn, and quartered. Fawkes, however, managed to avoid the worst of this execution by jumping from the scaffold where he was supposed to be hanged, breaking his neck before he could be drawn and quartered ("The King's Book.",1606.)"
And everybody knows about the extreme torture used at Waco by the Government...loudspeakers playing Nancy Sinatra music 24/7...it's no wonder they choose death by fire.
Terrible way to die but they were spared from the next torture that was planned...Billy Ray Cyrus' "Achy, Breaky Heart"
If a similar situation were to happen today, instead of have to pay recording artists royalty fees, the FBI plans to air reruns of America's Got Talent.
Shoot, after 10 minutes of that....I'd even switch parties...
You really should read up on recent history before you pontificate to us.
The Branch Davidians didn't start the fires, they were started by the overzealous actions of the most criminal admin in my lifetime.
10-22-2007, 12:28 PM
Don't know about "big a me" but it was sure "big a her"!
Seriously though....it's not that monotonous. I really can't complain (cause she won't let me and that's her job?).
10-22-2007, 01:04 PM
too bad you weren't here some 3 years ago when this was discussed in detail...but thanks so much for the new info.
I got me a TV and read the newspapers, by the way....and I'd rather get my news from Fox, then spoon fed from some .....
(I promised myself, no insults)
I have never seen you and Gayle "discuss" anything, so without a link I am quite skeptical.
10-22-2007, 05:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Mac, torture, if done right can be justified. We're coming up soon on Guy Fawkes day (notorious leftist, liberal)...and it was only with torture that the nefarious plot was uncovered.Well, not exactly... Even in them days the order had to be issued from the top... "Fawkes was tortured over the next few days, after the King granted special permission to do so. James directed that the torture should be gentle at first, and then more severe. Sir William Wade, Lieutenant of the Tower of London at this time, supervised the torture and obtained Fawkes's confession. For three or four days Fawkes said nothing, let alone divulge the names of his co-conspirators. Only when he found out that they had proclaimed themselves by appearing in arms did he succumb. The torture only revealed the names of those conspirators who were already dead or whose names were known to the authorities. Some had fled to Dunchurch, Warwickshire, where they were killed or captured. On 31 January, Fawkes and a number of others implicated in the conspiracy were tried in Westminster Hall. After being found guilty, they were taken to Old Palace Yard in Westminster and St Paul's Yard, where they were hanged, drawn, and quartered. Fawkes, however, managed to avoid the worst of this execution by jumping from the scaffold where he was supposed to be hanged, breaking his neck before he could be drawn and quartered ("The King's Book.",1606.)"
And everybody knows about the extreme torture used at Waco by the Government...loudspeakers playing Nancy Sinatra music 24/7...it's no wonder they choose death by fire.
Terrible way to die but they were spared from the next torture that was planned...Billy Ray Cyrus' "Achy, Breaky Heart". If a similar situation were to happen today, instead of have to pay recording artists royalty fees, the FBI plans to air reruns of America's Got Talent. Shoot, after 10 minutes of that....I'd even switch parties...<hr /></blockquote>Woolfy -- Yeah, i think that it (Guy Fawkes) woz a catholic plot actually. I think that the catholics paid for the construction of westminster, so why koodnt they be allowed to unconstruct it????
I go along with El Dubb -- the FBI sent the Branch Davidians (the kidz) to hell (i think), by uzing flammable tear gas, followed by some incendiary grenades (i think). madMac.
10-22-2007, 05:34 PM
Mac, I couldn't have read about Guy, without reading the whole story, We Catholics will do damn near anything to get a day named after us; chase the snakes out of Ireland, the Pommies out of France, have our heads handed to us on a silver plate, etc....and there's been enough coverage about Waco, that everybody knows what really happened there....but don't ruin my story....I'd like to think that given the choice, another 24 hrs of Nancy.....I know I would either self immolate, or maybe suffer spontaneous combustion....did anybody consider that, i wonder?
10-22-2007, 05:55 PM
We were going great early on, what with xmas and easter, but it haz been a struggle in the last 1900 years. Still, we have still got the 2nd kumming up our sleevez -- but this wont be for 1000 generationz, ie say 20,000 years less 2,000 allready gone, leevz 18,000 years to wait. madMac.
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