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Cydpkt
10-26-2007, 08:26 PM
I am looking to have a custom cue built and am starting to consider woods and options. I am looking for suggestions on types of woods (colors and combinations) and various points or inlays that are out there. What are some things that you have seen on a cue that has made you stop and take a second look? The wood in this cue JM1304
Jack Madden Cues (http://www.johnmaddencues.com/gallery.php) (Spalted Casurina - 4th cue down) caught my eye.

1Time
10-26-2007, 09:11 PM
I saw a cue once that's butt lit up and turned different colors. I thought it was pretty neat looking.

But whatever you get, I suggest buying only from a custom cue maker that has enough confidence in his product to warranty your cue against you finding a production cue for half the price or less that you shoot better with.

BLACKHEART
10-27-2007, 08:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> I saw a cue once that's butt lit up and turned different colors. I thought it was pretty neat looking.

But whatever you get, I suggest buying only from a custom cue maker that has enough confidence in his product to warranty your cue against you finding a production cue for half the price or less that you shoot better with. <hr /></blockquote>

I hope that was supposed to be funny, because that is not going to happen...JER

1Time
10-27-2007, 09:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr>
I hope that was supposed to be funny, because that is not going to happen...JER <hr /></blockquote>

Yes, of course that's not going to happen. Custom cue makers sell cues based on the fairy tale that dreams do come true and can be whittled into reality by design.

BLACKHEART
10-27-2007, 08:46 PM
I for one make custom cues, because I love doing it.Pool cues or automobiles you can not guarantee, that your customer will not like something else better, down the line. You can only make the best cue, that you can &amp; hope that your customer, knows the difference between your work &amp; someone elses...JER

1Time
10-28-2007, 11:30 AM
BLACKHEART,

If basing my decision of whether to buy a custom cue from you or not on your previous reply, I'd probably go shopping elsewhere.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> I for one make custom cues, because I love doing it. <hr /></blockquote>
Being a woodworker by hobby myself and a pool player, I can appreciate one's love for making cues. However...

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr>Pool cues or automobiles you can not guarantee, that your customer will not like something else better, down the line. <hr /></blockquote>
The issue is not one of preference or changing one's mind. The issue is one of performance. Automobiles are warrantied for performance, and their performance and specs are published. IF a custom cue maker attempts to sell a cue with a stated or implied selling point or claim that the customer will find it superior in performance to one, a few, or more cues, then that custom cue maker should warranty such a claim. And, custom cue shoppers should demand it, just like is done with automobiles.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr>You can only make the best cue, that you can &amp; hope that your customer, knows the difference between your work &amp; someone elses...JER <hr /></blockquote>
No. There's no way for a customer to "know" the difference between a cue not yet made from one cue maker from a cue not yet made from another cue maker. You and other custom cue makers may make very fine cues, but there's simply no way possible for a customer to "know" the relevant differences. And, making the best cue you can is not all a custom cue maker can do. The custom cue maker also could tell the truth up front regarding a customer's expected performance with a custom cue by saying, for example, I cannot guarantee you will play better with this $750 custom cue I am trying to sell you than a $75 production cue. And, the custom cue maker could state up front that once bought, there is no guarantee that the cue later could be whittled down in such a way as the customer then could shoot better with it than a $75 production cue. And as I already stated, IF attempting to sell a cue with a stated or implied selling point or claim that the customer will find it's performance superior to one, a few, or more other cues, that custom cue maker could warranty such a claim.

Deeman3
10-29-2007, 09:27 AM
Cue makers live by reputation alone. Customers are a fickle group who sometimes know what is good for them and other times use the cue as a excuse for problems they have developed. About all a good cue maker can do is make a good product and sell it. Over time, the market will determine how good or bad his product is. Many cue makers make outlandish claims. Blackheart is not one of them. He is honest and has a great reputation. He has a waiting list. His cues and his name speak for him.

A couple of points you make are valid. However, there is no way a custom cue maker can warranty "performance". He can only stand behind construction, materials and defects. "Performance" is not a factor measurable in most instances with a cue. If they state a certain deflection or other characteristic, then most would stand behind that. However, even us car manufacturers can't warranty the driving talents of the people we build a car for. Certainly you can't expect a cue maker to do that?

Honestly, I am afraid to use a Blackheart as I would probably have to throw my Schon away....

Let us know when you get a waiting list for your cues....

1Time
10-29-2007, 11:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Cue makers live by reputation alone. <hr /></blockquote>
Irrelevant. Custom cue makers sell cues based on the fairy tale that dreams do come true and can be whittled into reality by design. And that cue makers may live on reputation alone, does not change this.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Customers are a fickle group who sometimes know what is good for them and other times use the cue as a excuse for problems they have developed. <hr /></blockquote>
Customers are easily deceived and should be provided a warranty for any stated or implied claims.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>About all a good cue maker can do is make a good product and sell it. <hr /></blockquote>
No. A cue maker can do more than make a quality product and sell it, and can do so just as I previously stated.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>Over time, the market will determine how good or bad his product is. Many cue makers make outlandish claims. BLACKHEART is not one of them. He is honest and has a great reputation. He has a waiting list. His cues and his name speak for him. <hr /></blockquote>
I have no reason to doubt any point you've made here of your endorsement of BLACKHEART. I am sure you are correct. However, none of that means BLACKHEART cannot be guilty of doing or not doing what I have stated. Of course if reason was provided for me to believe BLACKHEART is not guilty of doing or not doing what I suspect, then I would have reason to change my opinion of whether or not to do business with him if wanting a custom cue.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>A couple of points you make are valid. <hr /></blockquote>
No. If you read what I wrote more carefully, you should find all of my points to be valid.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> However, there is no way a custom cue maker can warranty "performance". <hr /></blockquote>
I never said or implied there was a way for a custom cue maker to warranty performance. A careful re-read should show this.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> He can only stand behind construction, materials and defects. <hr /></blockquote>
No. A cue maker can do more than stand behind construction, materials and defects, and can do so just as I previously stated.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>"Performance" is not a factor measurable in most instances with a cue. <hr /></blockquote>
Again, I never stated or implied this. Re-read.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>If they state a certain deflection or other characteristic, then most would stand behind that. <hr /></blockquote>
Like I stated before, then the cue maker should provide a warranty to address such claims, and the customers should demand it.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>However, even us car manufacturers can't warranty the driving talents of the people we build a car for. Certainly you can't expect a cue maker to do that?<hr /></blockquote>
Irrelevant. I never stated or implied car manufacturers warranty driving talents of people, or that cue makers can warranty customer's pool playing talents. A careful re-read of what I posted should show your point here to be moot.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Honestly, I am afraid to use a Blackheart as I would probably have to throw my Schon away.... <hr /></blockquote>
Using different cues always risks finding one that works better than the one you have, and this is true whether it is a Blackheart, Schon, or whatever.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>Let us know when you get a waiting list for your cues.... <hr /></blockquote>
Clearly this is not necessary. One need not be in the cue making business to contribute to a customer's knowledge and skill of shopping for a custom cue.

Deeman3
10-30-2007, 06:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>
But whatever you get, I suggest buying only from a custom cue maker that has enough confidence in his product to warranty your cue against you finding a production cue for half the price or less that you shoot better with. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> I know I should not get involved in this discussion but here goes:

Just how would an intellegent woodworker like yourself structure a warranty as you describe above?

"I, Custom Cue Maker "A", warrant my cue to allow the purchaser to shoot better than with a production cue he/she may find at 50% of the price I charge."

Now, how do you, as an expert, quantify that? How will you defend yourself against a person who may say and/or believe he/she performs better with a Meucci? How could you ever defend yourself in a court of law with such a warranty? This would appear to go well beyond a simple satisfaction guarantee. In the real world, a custom cue maker produces, in many cases, a cue design by request and the design may not have re-sale value for another buyer.

So, my earlier statement that you make some good points was premature. You have no idea of what you are talking about.

Don't feel bad, at least you can bracket and quote. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif</font color>

1Time
10-30-2007, 09:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>
Just how would an intellegent woodworker like yourself structure a warranty as you describe above?
<hr /></blockquote>

I was being facetious, and my reply to BLACKHEART should make that evident.

Snapshot9
10-30-2007, 10:25 AM
How can I equate this - Lets see, probably to the difference in buying a suit off the rack as opposed to having a tailor make you a suit.

Most people buy their suits off the rack like most buy production cues 'off the rack'. Some do a little of both, they find a production suit of a certain brand that works well for them for the money (Schon), and they have a few suits made especially for them by a tailor where they get to pick out exactly what they want, have the measurements to fit only their body, color and fabric they want, etc..

Until you go through the experience of having a suit made just for you, you can readily dismiss it as something you don't see the real value of, but if you do opt to have one made for you, and it is the best suit you ever owned, you begin to appreciate the true quality of it.

It is also like the difference of buying a pre-built home, and having one built for you. The highest level of satisfaction is usually with the one you had built just for you, rather than someone elses idea.

Cornerman
10-30-2007, 10:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Snapshot9:</font><hr> How can I equate this - Lets see, probably to the difference in buying a suit off the rack as opposed to having a tailor make you a suit.

Most people buy their suits off the rack like most buy production cues 'off the rack'. Some do a little of both, they find a production suit of a certain brand that works well for them for the money (Schon), and they have a few suits made especially for them by a tailor where they get to pick out exactly what they want, have the measurements to fit only their body, color and fabric they want, etc..

Until you go through the experience of having a suit made just for you, you can readily dismiss it as something you don't see the real value of, but if you do opt to have one made for you, and it is the best suit you ever owned, you begin to appreciate the true quality of it.

It is also like the difference of buying a pre-built home, and having one built for you. The highest level of satisfaction is usually with the one you had built just for you, rather than someone elses idea. <hr /></blockquote>I think this is a pretty good analogy, Scott. Really good. To further it, it can be said that there are the very special people that it doesn't matter if they get a suit tailor-made, or if they get it off the rack, they will bring excellence to whatever occassion at a higher level than someone who is a dolt that happens to have a custom-made suit.

Fred

Cydpkt
10-30-2007, 12:48 PM
In case anyone forgot this thread was meant to allow people to mention what they have seen in other cues that caught their eye. BLACKHEART what are some good color combinations you might suggest with the type of wood I mentioned at the beginning?
Thanks

1Time
10-30-2007, 12:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Snapshot9:</font><hr> How can I equate this - Lets see, probably to the difference in buying a suit off the rack as opposed to having a tailor make you a suit.

Most people buy their suits off the rack like most buy production cues 'off the rack'. Some do a little of both, they find a production suit of a certain brand that works well for them for the money (Schon), and they have a few suits made especially for them by a tailor where they get to pick out exactly what they want, have the measurements to fit only their body, color and fabric they want, etc..

Until you go through the experience of having a suit made just for you, you can readily dismiss it as something you don't see the real value of, but if you do opt to have one made for you, and it is the best suit you ever owned, you begin to appreciate the true quality of it.

It is also like the difference of buying a pre-built home, and having one built for you. The highest level of satisfaction is usually with the one you had built just for you, rather than someone elses idea. <hr /></blockquote>

No, Snapshot9. Your suit and home analogies are perfect for perpetuating the fairy tale that a custom cue can be tailor made to perform better for a specific individual than one or more production or other custom cues. And any custom cue maker who disagrees with this should be run out of business.

Can a tailor make a custom suit for an individual that performs better (fit / function / looks) than an off the rack suit? This is quite likely. However, can a custom cue maker make a cue for an individual that performs better (player shoots better with it) than all other production cues or custom cues made for other people? This is not at all likely.

1Time
10-30-2007, 01:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>I think this is a pretty good analogy, Scott. Really good. To further it, it can be said that there are the very special people that it doesn't matter if they get a suit tailor-made, or if they get it off the rack, they will bring excellence to whatever occassion at a higher level than someone who is a dolt that happens to have a custom-made suit.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Cornerman,

While the analogy by Snapshot9 is not true, your analogy is. Yours is like saying a very special player can demonstrate pool excellence whether shooting with a cheap house cue or a custom cue (or any cue for that matter), while a low level player could not even if using the custom cue of his or her dreams.