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Gayle in MD
10-27-2007, 08:20 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-bernie-sanders/why-i-will-vote-no-on-m_b_70043.html

An excellent editorial regarding the need to axe Bush's next sick Republican inhumane Attorney General Nominee.

Are we a nation of laws, or a nation of men?

Waterboarding was deemed torture when the Japanese were doing it, it took a Bush in the White House, secretly breaking our Geneva Conventions, to commit what John McCain describes as "very exquisite torture" and reduce its definition to "enhanced interrogation."

The unamerican "Above the Law" Imperial Bush administration, is once again using the bastardization of the english language, to redefine what is clearly torture, and which they knew was torture, and hence, sought to hide what they were doing from Americans, and the rest of the world.

Their latest loyal Bushie appointee, for Attorney General, will be as corrupt in his soul as all their other Republican comrads, and particularly Bush, and Rice, having stated, over and over, "The United States does not torture people," (A very good example of how in Condosleeeeza Rice's case, a formal education, does not not insure integrity). More LIES! They clearly have, and waterboarding has been designated, with legislative and international agreement, and Treaty action, as torture, since WWII.

We can only hope that these torturing despots, reminicent of the world's worst despots, will be drug into a courtroom, somewhere, and forced to pay for their inhumane crimes against humanity.

Gayle in Md.

bamadog
10-27-2007, 10:23 AM
Gayle, why do you suppose we haven't been attacked here in the US for over six years? You know OBL has said his goal is to see American streets running with crusader's blood.

LWW
10-27-2007, 12:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bamadog:</font><hr> Gayle, why do you suppose we haven't been attacked here in the US for over six years? You know OBL has said his goal is to see American streets running with crusader's blood. <hr /></blockquote>
Because Bill Clinton is no longer in office for the republicans to thwart?

No, that wouldn't work.

Because Jimmy Carter has converted the region to peace and tranquility?

No, that didn't work either.

I give up. Tell us Gayle?

LWW

wolfdancer
10-27-2007, 01:51 PM
Gayle, I see they have decided now to tag-team your posts. I guess it's the old adage..."two heads are better then one"...but in this case, I'm not so sure.
Both sides of the torture issue are being debated intelligently, by knowledgeable people on C-Span...damn if I need their uninformed take on the issue
I gave up reading either of them...it's all invective anyway...I believe they are both working out some "inner child" conflict issues

hondo
10-27-2007, 06:19 PM
Well, at least they have each other.
It's really bizarre the way they keep responding
to posts that no one will answer.
I pray that they will eventually find peace within
themselves.
Guys, anything I can do to help, please let me know.
Just, please, no more attacks on AZ. I'm not your
enemy.

wolfdancer
10-27-2007, 06:32 PM
I'm not your enemy.
But of course you are!!!
Friends don't let friends post crap like they do.

LWW
10-28-2007, 02:34 AM
Actually, I merely reasked the question since Gayle suffers from "answer intolerance disorder"...but you knew that.

In fact, you are hypocritically criticizing us for doing what you and others do here on a repeated basis...but you knew that also.

Thirdly, I knew Hondo would pile in since he's been taking a cross board beat down of Biblical proportions...and all brought into being by his own hand I might add...and is seeking any port of shelter as the storm of logic pelts against his raw nerves.

LWW

Bobbyrx
10-28-2007, 09:52 AM
"We can only hope that these torturing despots, reminicent of the world's worst despots, will be drug into a courtroom, somewhere, and forced to pay for their inhumane crimes against humanity.

Gayle in Md. "

<font color="red">Perfect example of the problem I have with most folks on the left. If you read this quote from a person living in the U.S. you might logically think that it was refering to O.B.L. or North Korea's Kim Jung or Iran's Ahmadinejad or Saddam Hussein. But nooooooooo, of course it is talking about the leaders of their own country. Never in 9 gazzillion posts have I seen anything like this directed at our ENEMIES. And for the uptenth time, the Geneva convention applies to uniformed soldiers, not terrorists who disguise themselves as civilians. In WWII, since you brought it up, these type people would be shot if captured and not in uniform. And if waterboarding is all you can come up with, then try again. And where is the out cry about the REAL torture the people we are fighting against commit?????? And believe me, if there was any proof of all these accusations against the administration, the Democrats would be bringing charges and people WOULD be drug into court, but since this is not happening , one can only conclude one thing....empty charges

Gayle in MD
10-28-2007, 12:54 PM
LMAO, /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif addiction is a terrible thing. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

eg8r
10-28-2007, 01:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Gayle, I see they have decided now to tag-team your posts. <hr /></blockquote> wolfie, how is that any different you and gayle?

eg8r

Gayle in MD
10-28-2007, 01:39 PM
Obviously you don't watch the live Senate investigations. Do you study anything, other than Fixed News, that is?

Water boarding is torture. It was deemed torture, in WWII, when the Japanese used it. It is deemed torture by all international humanitarian organizations. It is also deemed by experts, and particularly our own CIA, which Bush and Cheney don't pay any attention to, anyway, and our own congress, as torture, and proved to be extremely unuseful in obtaining accurate information. They ARE doing it, and it is under investigation, NOW. Here, on Capital Hill, and around the world.

bin Laden, hasn't taken action to destroy the Constitution of my country. bin Laden hasn't taken over my country, used it for his own means, and placed himself, as the leader, above the law. bin Laden didn't send our troops to war on lies. bin Laden isn't a member of an American Party, and a new communist based ideology, Neoconservativism, which seeks to dictate to others what is right and wrong, and what they may or may not do, according to their own personal business deals, and religious beliefs. And, worse than that, even, seeks to take over the entire world, and force their ideology upon it. I can't do much about bin Laden, but there are some things I can do about the organization right here in America, that threatens everything this country stands for. When and if bin Laden manages to do any of those things, I'll be writing about it. I see very little difference between bin Laden, and George Bush, accept George Bush works at scaring Americans, weekly. bin Laden only makes tapes every few years, to scare them.

bin Laden will get his, I'm sure, but it won't be until after Bush is out of office, not because Bush is doing anything at all right, he isn't, but because he has "Secret" agreements going on, and still supports certain countries (with oil) who commit inhumane treatment of their own people, countries like Saudi Arabia, for example, and others, and he has a long history of business dealings with bin Laden's family, for example, and certain other Saudis, who are just as much depots, as Saddam ever was.

Iran, FYI, is and was, much more progressive, before Bush messed it up. Iran's people, particularly the young people, were moving the country toward a new regime of Western culture, prodding toward democracy, electing moderate religious, and government leaders, until George Bush invaded the Middle East, and started calling other countries evil, and pissing off the whole Arab world. Now, Iran is threatened, and will persevere for nuclear weapons. They weren't driven toward that before Bush committed the greatest FUBAR in our history.

No American is fond of bin Laden, silly boy, you are a boy, right? Under thirty, maybe? All Americans hate al Aaeda, FYI, and terrorists, but some Americans are aware of the terrorists that are right here, running our government, and using the same means to control us as the terrorists try to use, in order to do just as they please, using FEAR, as their weapon. Using Propaganda to poison minds, usually, liberal haters, young neoconned righties, and old farts, who think they have a handle on current events, although they haven't read ten books in ten years. But that's OK&lt; God is going to look after them. but bin Laden, OTOH, is very busy seeing how powerful he can become, and jus whom he can manipulate and exploit, to his own means. That is exactly what Goerge Bush has done, and he has done so in order to do just as he pleases, also, and commit acts against humanity, by using the same authroitarian approach used by all evil leaders and dictators, and terrorists, who commit crimes against humanity, FEAR.

You're deduction that no charges, mean no crimes, is ignorant, absurd, and naive, to say the least. Go back into your cocoon, and swallow up all the BS you wish, but don't waste my time with faulty premises. This administration is illegal, and immoral, and they have broken many laws, chipped away at our rights, our liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and privacy. They deserve punishment. I hope they get it. I hope that bin Laden gets exactly what's coming to him, also. I also hope that the right can break themselves out of complete denial, and drop their judgemental hatred for all those who don't fit into their neat little boxes, long enough to look for the truth, but I have no expectations of THAT ever happening.

Gayle in Md.

wolfdancer
10-28-2007, 02:44 PM
probably no difference....but in my case I'm hoping for a positive outcome....

wolfdancer
10-28-2007, 03:02 PM
torture is reading some of the posts here lately.
If they'll stop, I'll confess to the Lindbergh baby kidnapping, the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand,
The Boston Stranglings, and the Zodiac killings, I'll even admit to playing gin rummy with the Rosenburgs, and going to a Woodie Guthrie/Pete Seeger concert...or hell, just give me the GD kool aid....

LAMas
10-28-2007, 03:39 PM
WW2 Japanese Waterboarding has been upgraded to WW3 Airboarding Torture.

http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2005/japan-psycho-tv-p1.php

hondo
10-28-2007, 03:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr>

Thirdly, I knew Hondo would pile in since he's been taking a cross board beat down of Biblical proportions...and all brought into being by his own hand I might add...and is seeking any port of shelter as the storm of logic pelts against his raw nerves.

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

Oh, it's been awful, Wolfie. One poster over there who
used to make a little sense came to Dubya's rescue.
Buddy, I'm afraid you're starting to lose it again.
Remember that time some character called you a racist
and all you could do was babble for the next 10 days?
Seriously, I wish you could find something to do
rather than spout right wing drivel on the internet.
I wish I lived close. We could shoot some pool, toss
back a few &amp; have a big time.
Sounds like you could use a real friend, not some
internet hem grabber like Snoopy.

hondo
10-28-2007, 03:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> torture is reading some of the posts here lately.
If they'll stop, I'll confess to the Lindbergh baby kidnapping, the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand,
The Boston Stranglings, and the Zodiac killings, I'll even admit to playing gin rummy with the Rosenburgs, and going to a Woodie Guthrie/Pete Seeger concert...or hell, just give me the GD kool aid....
<hr /></blockquote>

A Woody Guthrie/ Pete Seeger concert! What kind of sick,
twisted, commie lovin kind of individual are you, Wolfie?

wolfdancer
10-28-2007, 04:09 PM
Shhh!....I made a big mistake admitting to that one. I might have the HUAC investigating me. I did own an Arlo Guthrie/Pete Seeger album though once.. (wonder if that is considered seditious?)
I can only guess at the GWB admin's reaction to Woodie &amp; Pete today....they would probably be in Guantomino having their fingernails forcibly.....but humanely, removed...

eg8r
10-28-2007, 09:45 PM
Just making sure that you see you are being mimicked. You and gayle like to follow each other around just like those two.

eg8r

LWW
10-29-2007, 03:52 AM
You are funny bro.

Clueless, but funny.

LWW

Qtec
10-29-2007, 05:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bamadog:</font><hr> Gayle, why do you suppose we haven't been attacked here in the US for over six years? <hr /></blockquote>

Simply because they don't need to.
Why?........because people like you and LWW are already scared $hitle$$. You two are more than willing to give up the rights that your ancestors fought for in order to let the Govt 'protect' you from the bad guys. [ all the while moaning about the nanny state!!]
You now see every Moslim as a potential terrorist and that's exactly the reaction that the 9/11 planners had hoped for.
The strategy is called 'divide and conquer'. You should recognize it because its the same one THIS Admin has been using for the last 7 years.

Q

LWW
10-29-2007, 07:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bamadog:</font><hr> Gayle, why do you suppose we haven't been attacked here in the US for over six years? <hr /></blockquote>

Simply because they don't need to.
Why?........because people like you and LWW are already scared $hitle$$. You two are more than willing to give up the rights that your ancestors fought for in order to let the Govt 'protect' you from the bad guys. [ all the while moaning about the nanny state!!]
You now see every Moslim as a potential terrorist and that's exactly the reaction that the 9/11 planners had hoped for.
The strategy is called 'divide and conquer'. You should recognize it because its the same one THIS Admin has been using for the last 7 years.

Q <hr /></blockquote>
What rights might those actually be my friend?

Please, be specific...this is a big charge and I don't expect the typical BS MOVEON answers.

LWW

Gayle in MD
10-29-2007, 07:23 AM
Total Ignore, works like a charm.

I have documented so many lies told by Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, I couldn't possibly list them all, but I'm certainly not going to wast my time trying to correspond with people who can't understand the term, OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE, and use the flawed reasoning that if there were no convictions, there was no crime committed.

Roughly 28% in this country are nuts. Why should we answer questions from people who are either too lazy, or too partisan, to read documented facts? Proven, accepted factual information, documented over and over again, by dozens of journalists, denied by the nutty right, whose thinking ability is compromised by their loyalty to, remaining loyal Bushies. Hey, it was loyal Bushies, who cherry picked all the intelligance, false intelligence, rendered as unreliable by our own best and brightest.

No Amdinistration in our history has demonstrated such gross corruption, deciet, and incompetence, and the results, speak for themselves.

Water boarding, in the Geneva conventions, is described as torture, period. The Supreme Court, and the congress of the United States of America, deems it as torture. George Bush, secretly sent prisoners through rendition, to other countries, experts in torturing, people who were despots, inhumane, repulsive people, so that other people, people who he himself preformed no in depth investigation to determine if in fact, they had even committed any crimes, could be tortured, and then he was able to tell the lie, "Americans don't torture people."

No, they pay other people to do it for them, against the laws of our country, and against our international agreements.

Never in my lifetime have I been so repulsed by an American President, and his entire cabinet, and executive appointees. It breaks my heart, knowing the damage this administration has done to my country's reputation, and ideals. They are PIGS! Most in this country see that, and so does the rest of the world. Why should we pay any attention at all to people who show their low standards by refusing to acknowledge the horrible truth.

Gayle in Md.

LWW
10-29-2007, 07:30 AM
So Gayle, what techniques would actually meet with your approval?

LWW

wolfdancer
10-29-2007, 09:59 AM
ED, I plead guilty there, I share many similar views with Gayle, and often voice my agreement with things that she writes ...I'm a "liberal Democrat" and that for you, conjures up a host of evils....nothing I can do or say to change that.
Lucky for me they have done away with the HUAC....or I'd be "drawn and quartered", I'd guess for my heretical ideas about GWB.
You don't like what I write, and I've had my blowups over what you post...but, in retrospect...and I can't believe that I am writing this (I'll have to do some penance)you come across as fair and open-minded, compared to LWW and Bamadog.
I thank God that you haven't quite joined forces as yet, or the board would become ....

Gayle in MD
10-29-2007, 12:24 PM
Hey Wolf, if you're following me around, as the Eggravator suggests, it must be getting crowded back there, /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif LMAO! Try not to step on Eg's, or AZ-AH's toes. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I thank God that you haven't quite joined forces as yet, or the board would become .... <hr /></blockquote>

Join the forces?! You know that's something chickenhawks never do! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Bobbyrx
10-29-2007, 03:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Obviously you don't watch the live Senate investigations. <font color="red">No, that would be torture and I also have a job </font color> Do you study anything, other than Fixed News, that is?

Water boarding is torture. It was deemed torture, in WWII, when the Japanese used it. <font color="red">different form </font color> It is deemed torture by all international humanitarian organizations. It is also deemed by experts, <font color="red">who all don't agree </font color> and particularly our own CIA, which Bush and Cheney don't pay any attention to, <font color="red"> you told me once that Cheney controlled the CIA </font color> anyway, and our own congress, as torture, and proved to be extremely unuseful in obtaining accurate information. <font color="red">there are experts on both sides of that argument </font color> They ARE doing it, and it is under investigation, NOW. Here, on Capital Hill, and around the world. <font color="red"> If it were performed on me I would probably think it were torture but if someone hurt my dog, then it would not be nearly strong enough punishment. In other words there IS a debate going on as to whether it is or is not. There is no debate that what the other side is doing is torture. Shooting, cutting off heads, arms, hands etc., attaching live electric wires to genitals etc. Is this what you are saying that we are doing in Iraq?? It's obvious the whole water boarding controversy is an attempt to play gotcha with the administration and be able to say "see we are too torturing people so they are lieing" but the outcry from the left about what the real torturers do remains silent. Typical blame America first. <font color="red"> </font color> </font color>

bin Laden, hasn't taken action to destroy the Constitution of my country. <font color="red">neither has Bush </font color> bin Laden hasn't taken over my country, used it for his own means, and placed himself, as the leader, above the law. <font color="red">If he broke the law, why haven't the Dems done anything </font color> bin Laden didn't send our troops to war on lies. bin Laden isn't a member of an American Party, and a new communist based ideology, <font color="red"> 1?!?!?</font color> Neoconservativism, which seeks to dictate to others what is right and wrong, and what they may or may not do, according to their own personal business deals, and religious beliefs. And, worse than that, even, seeks to take over the entire world, and force their ideology upon it. I can't do much about bin Laden, but there are some things I can do about the organization right here in America, that threatens everything this country stands for. When and if bin Laden manages to do any of those things, I'll be writing about it. I see very little difference between bin Laden, and George Bush, accept George Bush works at scaring Americans, weekly. bin Laden only makes tapes every few years, to scare them. <font color="red">So you are saying that Bush is a bigger threat to this country than OBL and his followers.......? </font color>

bin Laden will get his, I'm sure, but it won't be until after Bush is out of office, not because Bush is doing anything at all right, he isn't, but because he has "Secret" agreements going on, and still supports certain countries (with oil) who commit inhumane treatment of their own people, countries like Saudi Arabia, for example, and others, and he has a long history of business dealings with bin Laden's family, for example, and certain other Saudis, who are just as much depots, as Saddam ever was.

Iran, FYI, is and was, much more progressive, before Bush messed it up. Iran's people, particularly the young people, were moving the country toward a new regime of Western culture, prodding toward democracy, electing moderate religious, and government leaders, until George Bush invaded the Middle East, and started calling other countries evil, and pissing off the whole Arab world. <font color="red"> So the planning for 9/11 began in January when Bush was sworn in.....it seems the good folks in the Arab world were pissed off already </font color> Now, Iran is threatened, and will persevere for nuclear weapons. They weren't driven toward that before Bush committed the greatest FUBAR in our history. <font color="red"> So Iran's interest in nukes is because of Bush?? I'm suprised you don't believe they want nuclear power for electricity </font color>

No American is fond of bin Laden, silly boy, you are a boy, right? Under thirty, maybe? <font color="red"> There you go and get sarcastic. I've never called you names. Actually I'm 52 with 2 college degrees and own my own business, not that it matters </font color> All Americans hate al Aaeda, FYI, and terrorists, but some Americans are aware of the terrorists that are right here, running our government, and using the same means to control us as the terrorists try to use, in order to do just as they please, using FEAR, as their weapon. Using Propaganda to poison minds, usually, liberal haters, young neoconned righties, and old farts, who think they have a handle on current events, although they haven't read ten books in ten years. But that's OK&lt; God is going to look after them. but bin Laden, OTOH, is very busy seeing how powerful he can become, and jus whom he can manipulate and exploit, to his own means. That is exactly what Goerge Bush has done, and he has done so in order to do just as he pleases, also, and commit acts against humanity, by using the same authroitarian approach used by all evil leaders and dictators, and terrorists, who commit crimes against humanity, FEAR. <font color="red"> Just what is it that Bush has tried to make us scared of besides....oh I don't know maybe...ISLAMIC TERRORISM perhaps? </font color>

You're deduction that no charges, mean no crimes, is ignorant, absurd, and naive, to say the least. <font color="red"> So you are telling me that the Democrats would not go after Bush full bore if they had some sort of proof of all these illegal, unconstitutional things that he is doing. I agree with you that he's an idiot and doesn't have a clue, but if he do all these things he's accused of and GET AWAY WITH THEM, then maybe I'm wrong </font color> Go back into your cocoon, and swallow up all the BS you wish, but don't waste my time with faulty premises. This administration is illegal, and immoral, and they have broken many laws, chipped away at our rights, our liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and privacy. They deserve punishment. <font color="red"> </font color> I hope they get it. I hope that bin Laden gets exactly what's coming to him, also. I also hope that the right can break themselves out of complete denial, and drop their judgemental hatred for all those who don't fit into their neat little boxes, <font color="red"> sounds like you </font color> long enough to look for the truth, but I have no expectations of THAT ever happening. Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
10-29-2007, 08:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
No, that would be torture and I also have a job <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">They are repeated in the evenings, and on weekends, and since taking the time to learn first hand what your governmnet is doing is torture, to use your words, then where do you find you're best, most accurate version of the truth? Had I not seen, live, all the investigations, and interrogations, of the many representatives from this corrupt administration, I could never embrace the opinions I have formed, so passionately. One cannot rely completely on reporters, or journalists, one must verify, for ones self. </font color>

[ QUOTE ]
different form <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">I beg to differ, there is only one way to water board people, and regardless of position, or any other variable, the result is the feeling of prolonged, slow, suffocating, drowning. It is terriying and painful. To question whether or not any individual deserves such treatment, is vastly separate from the issue. We are either known as a humanitarian nation, or we will be known as no better than those who wish to destroy us. It is a matter of high intention, and human dignity. It is a matter of human values. To designate one person as deserving of torture, for certain reasons, does not insure that such horrible actions will not be taken against others, not at all deserving. I could hold no respect for any living being who would justify torture. To me, such a person is a bad as any other despot alive.

[ </font color>



[ QUOTE ]
you told me once that Cheney controlled the CIA <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">No, I told you that during the Madison Avenue styled propaganda used by this administration to sell our country on this war of choice, Dick Cheney sent a cabal of loyal Bushies, to the CIA, to cherry pick intelligence, which would support the administration's lie, and their operatives did so, using outdated material, and material which had been deemed unreliable, by the majority of experts, with years of experience in such matters, unlike any of those who were sent by Cheney. Many of the career operatives, and intelligence experts, later resigned, in protest.

</font color>

[ QUOTE ]
If it were performed on me I would probably think it were torture but if someone hurt my dog, then it would not be nearly strong enough punishment. In other words there IS a debate going on as to whether it is or is not. <font color="blue">Interesting, your statement provides a very good example why no one, no government, and no individual, can be trusted with inhumane actions. this very process of moving ones line around to suit oneself, is the example of why such power, cannot be allowed. Torture, is torture, and we all know exactly what that means, it means doing to another, what one could not stand to think of another doing to oneself, or to ones loved ones. This hypocritical, desperate attempt by the Bush administration to redefine torture, as they have redefined fact, treason, progress, hunger, national threats, WMD's, terrorist supporters, redefined their critics, Americans, as terrorist lovers, and redefined ill concieved and unlawful actions they have taken, such as corruption, obsturction of justice, lying to the Congress, outing covert agents, syping illegally on Americans, all redefined as "Protecting America".... or, in the effort to pardon themselves, in advance, AND/OR retroactively, from the responsibility of having performed those illegal, immoral acts, ... exactly the proof that they should not be in power, any kind of power, over any kind of people, for any reason, ever. Torture, requires no new definition, it has been understood for what it is through the ages, and the debate of which you speak, is merely a desperate attempt to cover up, one of many, performed by the Bush Administration, and forgiven by their many misguided, confused, impressionable sheep. It is yet another muddying of the waters, intended to distract from the horrific sins which they have committed against mankind. </font color> There is no debate that what the other side is doing is torture. Shooting, cutting off heads, arms, hands etc., attaching live electric wires to genitals etc. Is this what you are saying that we are doing in Iraq?? [ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">When we became a secret Government, hidden from the light of day, (shortly after George Bush crashed into the White House, without a majority mandate from the voters, he was, after all, appointed by appointees of his father's administration) we became a suspect government in the eyes of the world, and this administration, lost it's credibility with many Americans, in fact, by the majority of our own citizens, hence, only five percent, said they would trust George Bush to tell the truth about conditions in Iraq.

The torturing, was performed, by the United States Of America, in Iraq, and in other places. Regardless of whether it was performed by American hands, or the hands which recieved the souls to be tortured, from americans, it is nevertheless, torture, at the hands of Americans. Tell me, are you proud of that? Remember, you do not know who these souls were, nor weather or not, even of your own, lame reasoning, they deserved such treatment, but you are saying, that the question, are you proud of such inhumane actions, performed by your country, is not of concern to you? </font color> <hr /></blockquote> It's obvious the whole water boarding controversy is an attempt to play gotcha with the administration and be able to say "see we are too torturing people so they are lieing" [ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">I see, so any responsible citizen, with high intention, who dares question your leader, must surely be up to no good? Tell me, what do you think came first, the torturing of human beings, by this administration, or the questions about the torturing? Condemn those who were asking the questions? How very ill. How very irresponsible. How very unamerican. How very convenient for you. I suppose, that lets you completely off the hook? And, George Bush also, and all those who supported him, or have performed torture for him? In fact, all those, except those who question him, and his motives, and the terrorists themselves, are off the hook, by your way of thinking? </font color> <hr /></blockquote> but the outcry from the left about what the real torturers do remains silent. [ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">Although this sentence make no literal sense, I must say, to make such a statement, is absurd. Why do you make up such ridiculous suggestions? Americans were devastated by 9/11. WE were all broken heated, by what those evil people did ot our countrymen, and women, and children. No one was silent, as you suggest, and all were shocked, disgusted, repulsed. such statements, insult the very fiber of American humanity, IMO, and you should be ashamed for sying such an awful thing. The subject is, or was, not what the terrorists do, or did, the subject, is, what is our country doing, and do we approve. We cannot control the inhumanity of terrorists, although, much evidence and history suggests that we played a rold in creating their hatred. Surely, it is a given, Americans, by our very high intention, and high standards, and humanitarian goals, are repulsed by the torture imposed upon human beings, by terrorists, OR ARE WE? Do we not also torture, for our own reasons, as well? Further, how do we know what our government is doing, when they have obviously taken such extreme measures to hide it from view? </font color> <hr /></blockquote> Typical blame America first. [ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote>
<hr /></blockquote> [ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">Typical right wing disgusting excuse for continuing to refuse to take responsibility for what your President is doing. Did you not vote for this man? Are you not responsible, to some degree, for what he does? Have you not continued to support him, regardless of evidence of his wrong doing, time and again, evidence of his dishonesty, time and again, suggestions of his incompetence, and even inhumanity, over and over, yet you trust him, blindly, to do the right thing, as regards sneaking people, out of the view of any oversight, to countries known to be torturers, yet you are quite sure, Goerge Bush, does not approve torture? How is it that he has gained such blind trust from you, when 70 % of Americans, your fellow countrymen and women, and obviously all of them can't be Democratics, do not trust him, and further, think he is incompetent, and only 5 % trust him to give truthful statements regarding Iraq. Yet you, you are quite sure, that every single soul that has been tortured, on behalf of George bush, hidden away in these countries of despots, in secret, fully deserved the treatment they have recieved. My God man, things are much worse on the right, than even I had imagined. You do not know, what cannot be known, but you do know, it has been hidden. Why do people hide things? Because they are proud of what they are doing?

</font color>

[ QUOTE ]
If he broke the law, then why haven't the Dems done anything?
<font color="blue">The Democrats have been investigating throughout their new term. And, there is no "If" About it, he has broken many laws. Obviously, given the example of five thousand missing e-mails, Obstruction of Justice by White House Aides, refusal to answer to subpoenas by Harriet Meyers, and others, secret illegal wire taps, torture, in secret, and a good deal still under investigation, it is yet to be seen what Democrats will eventually do. Some battles are still in the courts. However, for what it is worth, I have been told, by some insiders, that our country, is in such a mess at this time, that many Democrats are unwilling to distract the country, and the government, from the dangers and increased threats, which have resulted from Bush's failed policies, hence, unlike the Investigation Happy Republicans, who blew a little hanky panky into a national disaster, wasting millions upon millions of tax payers dollars, in a sick display of deviant sexual voyuerism, Democrats are not champing at the bit for impeachment, like the Republicans were. </font color>

So you are saying that Bush is a bigger threat to this country than OBL and his followers.......?

<font color="blue">I am saying that Bush's policies, threaten America, in more ways than a terrorist attack. I am saying, that George Bush, is not a man of high intention, or humanitarian values. As to which is the worst, I am hard pressed to make a choice, since they both lie, and they both torture, and they both are complete egomaniacs, I can only ask, which has killed the most people, and I think we know the answer to that. </font color>
/ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> When I am called a "Girl", I am flattered. If I offended you, I apologize, but you'll have to try to understand that I have been reading about this administration, non stop, since 9/11, mostly, and I am still befuddled, realizing that there are any people in this country, so completely unaware of what these crooks have done, and continue to do to this day, that I often think they must be young and naive to be so blind. It is completely undemocratic, and unamerican, IMO, for those who work to verify, to be labeled as terrorist lovers, or Bush haters. It isn't about hate, it is about fighting hate, and it is about our troops, and the unfair, inconsiderate, and incompetent managment of this illegal war of choice, Bush's choice. He was wrong to go into Iraq. Failure to grasp that must be chalked up to either ignorance, or apathy, take your pick. Failure by Bush to be watchful, and involved, cautious and precise, after insisting to do so, must be chalked up to colossal inexperience, and stupidity. Bush's on going denial of the devastating consequences, which have been paid by others, due to his own lazy, incompetence, bullheaded ignorance, total deciet, and clinical egomania, is absolutely repulsive. I find him every bit as repulsive as any terrorist, and more devastating to America, in the final analysis.

Now, please tell me, why do you think he decided to occupy Iraq?

Gayle in Md. </font color>

Qtec
10-29-2007, 08:26 PM
Lets start with the right of privacy.
The US Govt now listens in to the phone calls of US citizens, reads your email, can search your house without your knowledge, check every number you have dialed for years and even goes so far to check out what books you have lent from the Library- all in the name of protection.

How do you feel about that?

Q

eg8r
10-29-2007, 08:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
ED, I plead guilty there, I share many similar views with Gayle, and often voice my agreement with things that she writes ...I'm a "liberal Democrat" and that for you, conjures up a host of evils....nothing I can do or say to change that.
<hr /></blockquote> It does not conjure up anything, it just appeared like your post had a negative vibe about someone doing something that you partake in on a daily basis.

eg8r

eg8r
10-29-2007, 08:37 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Hey Wolf, if you're following me around, as the Eggravator suggests, it must be getting crowded back there, <hr /></blockquote> LOL, it is so funny how you post about total ignore yet you cannot get enough of me. You keep coming back.

eg8r

eg8r
10-29-2007, 08:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Simply because they don't need to. <hr /></blockquote> You are right, they had a huge NEED on 9/11, but no need now.

eg8r

Qtec
10-29-2007, 08:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Simply because they don't need to. <hr /></blockquote> You are right, they had a huge NEED on 9/11, but no need now.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

After you actually agreeing with me on something I'm going to have lie down! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
My head is spinning.
"Whats happening?" /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I feel light headed.

LOL
/ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Q........... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif....

LWW
10-30-2007, 04:13 AM
So, what techniques would you find acceptable?

LWW

LWW
10-30-2007, 04:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>Torture, is torture, and we all know exactly what that means, it means doing to another, what one could not stand to think of another doing to oneself, or to ones loved ones.

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>
And that's the poo-poo answer of the millenia.

I would never consider going to a Slim Whitman concert.

OTOH if I knew my brother was working on a terrorist plot to kill Americans I would expect that appropriate measures would be used.

Now, what techniques would you find acceptable Gayle?

LWW

LWW
10-30-2007, 04:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Lets start with the right of privacy.
The US Govt now listens in to the phone calls of US citizens, reads your email, can search your house without your knowledge, check every number you have dialed for years and even goes so far to check out what books you have lent from the Library- all in the name of protection.

How do you feel about that?

Q <hr /></blockquote>
Documentation please.

That answer is garbage and you know it.

That IS NOT how the programs work...and you know this also.

You took a beat down on AZB and could never back up a single moonbat claim...nor will you here.

But, you know that as well.

LWW

LWW
10-30-2007, 04:29 AM
HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding) is an unbiased review of the issue of waterboarding.

LWW

eg8r
10-30-2007, 06:33 AM
Yes, her version of torture will only keep that definition as long as it is not Hillary as President. Once Hillary takes over Gayle will modify her weak definition to fit the new situation.

The techniques that Gayle would use is simply to sit and chat with the terrorist and find out how we can make life better for them. One thing is also for certain...Gayle will not talk to them about religion the same way she spouts off on this forum.

eg8r

LWW
10-30-2007, 06:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> Yes, her version of torture will only keep that definition as long as it is not Hillary as President. Once Hillary takes over Gayle will modify her weak definition to fit the new situation.

The techniques that Gayle would use is simply to sit and chat with the terrorist and find out how we can make life better for them. One thing is also for certain...Gayle will not talk to them about religion the same way she spouts off on this forum.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>
I would be happy to get any def at all from her, but I agree with your point that in making an intellectual decision she pins herself down.

Some people would complain if Bush invented a cure for cancer and sold it for $1 per patient that he was profiting from people's misery.

LWW

Gayle in MD
10-30-2007, 09:35 AM
LMAO, and all the while he leaves our borders wide open, secretly sells port contracts to UAE, after they did business with al Waeda, flies bin Laden's relatives out of the country on 9/11, and opts to put his capture, and removal of the Taliban on the back burner, so he can occupy a country which is no immediate threat.

Did you ever think a president would be stupid enough to go trillions in debt to a communist country?

Torture, is Republicans in the White House! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Bobbyrx
10-30-2007, 11:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Lets start with the right of privacy.
The US Govt now listens in to the phone calls of US citizens <font color="red">(talking to suspected terrorists over seas) </font color> , reads your email <font color="red">(ditto) </font color> , can search your house without your knowledge <font color="red">(nothing new here, but must have reasonable cause) </font color> , check every number you have dialed for years and even goes so far to check out what books you have lent from the Library- all in the name of protection. <font color="red">(What other motive would they have, oil or Haliburton?) </font color>

How do you feel about that?

Q <hr /></blockquote>

LAMas
10-30-2007, 12:39 PM
Gayle would "CHAT" with the enemy? She is too verbose to just "CHAT". The enemy would spill their guts to get her to STFU.

Bobbyrx
10-30-2007, 05:44 PM
"but the outcry from the left about what the real torturers do remains silent" Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Although this sentence make no literal sense,<font color="red">(What? You've never heard of an outcry being silent???</font color>
I must say, to make such a statement, is absurd. Why do you make up such ridiculous suggestions? Americans were devastated by 9/11. WE were all broken heated, by what those evil people did ot our countrymen, and women, and children. No one was silent, as you suggest, and all were shocked, disgusted, repulsed. such statements, insult the very fiber of American humanity, IMO, and you should be ashamed for sying such an awful thing. The subject is, or was, not what the terrorists do, or did, the subject, is, what is our country doing, and do we approve. We cannot control the inhumanity of terrorists, although, much evidence and history suggests that we played a rold in creating their hatred. Surely, it is a given, Americans, by our very high intention, and high standards, and humanitarian goals, are repulsed by the torture imposed upon human beings, by terrorists, OR ARE WE? Do we not also torture, for our own reasons, as well? <font color="red">I understand what you are saying. What I mean is that say for example someone wrote: "What the terrorists do to innocent civilians is ungodly. They should be hunted down and punished for their inhuman behavior of killings, mutilations, etc. However, we must also watch ourselves in this matter. Water boarding could be crossing the line between us and them." I would go along with that. But the continual bashing of what WE do over and over without balancing it with the behavior of the type people we are up against just gets old </font color> Further, how do we know what our government is doing, when they have obviously taken such extreme measures to hide it from view? <font color="red"> We don't know for sure but I don't necessarily jump to the conclusion that we are the ones doing wrong </font color>

wolfdancer
10-30-2007, 06:15 PM
Seems that even McCain thinks waterboarding is torture
web page (http://www.digg.com/politics/McCain_Calls_Waterboarding_A_Horrible_Torture_Tech nique)
and from another site,I read where we sentenced a Japanese soldier to 15 yrs for using the technique on WWII American Prisoners.
There's a site which has a water boarding demo...a volunteer enduring it for 24 min...but I can't get the video to open.
I'm all for torture....look how many demons we uncovered using it during the Inquisition...and how many witches we found in Salem....
It all goes to prove that humanely applied torture does get results...well, lots of them died undergoing this, ...but the end results...well worth the money.

LWW
10-31-2007, 05:05 AM
I agree with you about the borders being an issue.

Let's say however if we caught some AQ people sneaking across the border...what techniques would you find acceptable for our security forces to use?

You must have missed this Q the last 10 times I asked it...the great tenacious and fact based Gayle surely has an answer?

LWW

Gayle in MD
10-31-2007, 05:50 AM
Had you seen the testimony, during the investigations before the Senate, you would know that the FBI targeted dissenters, to be spied upon, and used broad sweeping methods for spying, which did in fact break the law, and inpinge on many Americans rights.

Of course, regardless of whether or not any charge against this administration, or their policies, have been admitted, by they themselves, to have been illegal, the nutty 28%, continues to deny that they occured. While the rest of us laugh about it, they celebrate their supposed success in proving the charges false. The methods they use for this, are the same exact methods used by Karl Rove, the right wing press, and the Republican National Party. The majority of Americans are wise to these tactics, hence the vast majority, is against Bush, his policies, and the Republican Party. The statistics, prove that, and hence, Republicans are way behind Democrats in fund raising, and in spite of the Republican efforts to render this razor thin majority Democratic leadership, impotent, they have passed, and George Bush has signed, the bills that he now denies ever signing! LMAO. If his lips are moving, he's lying. Regardless, the statistics show that the Republicans in congress, get much lower approval ratings, than the Democrats, which suggest that while Americans are disgusted with the barriers the Republicans have thown in the path of progress, they also realize that Republicans, are responsible for the petty, destructive, political manueverings which George Bush, and the Republicans have used to cripple our country, and also for our unprecedented debt, and the quagmire in Iraq.

The little sheep may continue to bah bah bah, and lie lie lie, but the results of the next election, will render all their black smoke and mirrors laughable, as they will experience a complete wipe out. And how they do deserve it! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Qtec
10-31-2007, 06:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bobbyrx:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Lets start with the right of privacy.
The US Govt now listens in to the phone calls of US citizens <font color="red">(talking to suspected terrorists over seas) </font color> , reads your email <font color="red">(ditto) </font color> , can search your house without your knowledge <font color="red">(nothing new here, but must have reasonable cause) </font color> , check every number you have dialed for years and even goes so far to check out what books you have lent from the Library- all in the name of protection. <font color="red">(What other motive would they have, oil or Haliburton?) </font color>

How do you feel about that?

Q <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>



[ QUOTE ]
AT&amp;T Class Action
EFF's Class Action Lawsuit Against AT&amp;T for Collaboration with the NSA's Illegal Dragnet Surveillance

The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) filed a class-action lawsuit against AT&amp;T on January 31, 2006, accusing the telecom giant of violating the law and the privacy of its customers by collaborating with the National Security Agency (NSA) in its massive, illegal program to wiretap and data-mine Americans' communications. On July 20, 2006, a federal judge denied the government's and AT&amp;T's motions to dismiss the case, chiefly on the ground of the States Secrets Privilege, allowing the lawsuit to go forward. On August 15, 2007, the case was heard by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals.

The EFF lawsuit arose from news reports in December 2005, which first revealed that the NSA has been intercepting Americans' phone calls and Internet communications without any court oversight and in violation of the privacy safeguards established by Congress and the U.S. Constitution. This surveillance program, purportedly authorized by the President at least as early as 2001, intercepts and analyzes the phone and Internet communications of millions of ordinary Americans.


<hr /></blockquote>




[ QUOTE ]
Las Vegas Casinos, Airlines Ordered to Give FBI Information
By Jeralyn, Section Civil Liberties
Posted on Fri Jan 02, 2004 at 05:08:14 PM EST
Tags: (all tags)

Still think the Patriot Act and similar legislation won't be used against you? Then we hope you didn't go to Vegas for New Year's. The FBI ordered Las Vegas casinos and airlines to give them information on guests and travelers:

Las Vegas hotel operators and airlines serving McCarran International Airport are being required by the FBI to turn over all guest and passenger names and personal information, at least during the holiday period, several sources said Tuesday.

FBI spokesman Todd Palmer confirmed the federal action and said the requirement that the companies surrender customer information is a "normal investigative procedure."

As of now, they're not asking for your gambling winnings and losses, but they are asking for personal information:

Hotel operators who asked not to be identified said the information being provided to federal officials includes guest and passenger names, addresses and personal identification information, but not casino records or guest gambling information. ....the FBI in Las Vegas is receiving 100 percent cooperation from the gaming companies and airline operators. <hr /></blockquote> web page (http://www.eff.org/cases/att)
web page (http://www.talkleft.com/story/2004/01/02/181/35983)



--------

The argument now coming from the Govt is that if the Pres decides to do something it is automatically legal.

[ QUOTE ]
US Attorney General nominee Michael Mukasey has written a very lawyerly letter to the Senate Judiciary committee. The letter fails to use the word “waterboarding” although the acceptance of a cast-iron prohibition on “torture and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment” might fairly be seen to cover banning it. The letter might be enough to peel off a few votes on the torture issue.

If you read the letter with any care, however, you will see that it very carefully refuses to say that - even in the face of the FISA legislation occupying the field - the the law can place any limits on a President who decides to wiretap US citizens, in the US, without a warrant, so long as he decides he wants to and is willing to wave the bloody shirt of national security.[..] <hr /></blockquote>

web page (http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/10/30/is-the-fourth-amendment-just-a-guideline/)

Think you are safe?



Q [ QUOTE ]
Friday, October 26, 2007
The FBI’s Right to Threaten Torture

by James Bovard, October 26, 2007

A federal appeals court has concluded that an FBI agent must go to trial on charges he coerced a false confession out of a prime suspect in the 9/11 attacks. But the FBI still insists that its agent did nothing wrong. And the feds swayed the court to suppress that portion of a recent decision detailing how the FBI agent used the threat of torture to break an innocent man.

Abdallah Higazy, a 30-year-old Egyptian student, arrived in New York City to study engineering at the Polytechnic University in Brooklyn on August 27, 2001. A U.S. foreign-aid program reserved and paid for his room at the Millennium Hilton Hotel, next to the World Trade Center. After the first plane crashed into the World Trade Center, Higazy hot-footed it out of the hotel. After the terrorist attack, the hotel was sealed.

Three months later, guests were allowed to retrieve their belongings. When Higazy went to the hotel on December 17, he was arrested and accused of possessing an aviation radio. (A hotel security guard reported finding the radio in a safe in his room.) Higazy denied owning the radio. He was arrested as a material witness and locked up in solitary confinement.

Higazy wanted to clear his name so he agreed to take a polygraph test. FBI agent Michael Templeton wired him up for the test but then proceeded to browbeat him for three hours until he finally admitted to owning the radio. Higazy said the FBI agent warned him, “If you don’t cooperate with us, the FBI will ... make sure Egyptian security gives your family hell.” The FBI refused to permit Higazy’s attorney, Robert Dunn, to be in the room while he was given the polygraph. After the interrogation, Higazy was “trembling and sobbing uncontrollably,” according to Dunn.

On January 11, 2002, Higazy was indicted for lying to a federal agent. U.S. Attorney Dan Himmelfarb declaimed that “the crime that was being investigated when the false statements [about the radio] were made is perhaps the most serious in the country’s history. A radio that can be used for air-to-air and air-to-ground communication is a significant part of that investigation.” The Washington Post noted that “federal officials paraded [Higazy] before the media as a terrorist.” The feds never bothered checking with the U.S. foreign-aid program to find out whether Higazy’s story about why he was staying at the hotel next to the World Trade Center was true.

The prosecutorial celebration flopped three days later when an American pilot showed up at the Millennium Hilton Hotel and asked for the aviation radio he had left in his room when the hotel was evacuated on 9/11. It soon became apparent that the hotel security guard (a former cop who had been fired by the Newark Police Department) had lied about finding the radio in Higazy’s room. The case collapsed and, a few days later, Higazy was awarded $3 for subway fare and released from jail. The FBI conducted an internal investigation and absolved Templeton of any wrongdoing. <hr /></blockquote> web page (http://mparent7777-2.blogspot.com/2007/10/fbis-right-to-threaten-torture.html)

The guy confessed to a crime he didn't commit. The FBI were more than willing to put the guy away for life based on no evidence whatsoever.

[ QUOTE ]
LONDON: UK's first Muslim minister, Shahid Malik on Monday said he was detained at an American airport and his luggage analysed for traces of explosive materials.

Malik, UK's international development minister, whose parents come from Pakistan, said he was returning to Heathrow on Sunday after a series of meetings on tackling terror, when he was stopped at Dulles Airport in Washington.

Expressing his disappointment, Malik said he was searched and detained by the department of homeland security - the same department whose representatives he had been meeting on his visit to the country. Malik said: "After a few minutes a couple of other people were also taken to one side. We were all Muslims - the other two were black Muslims, both with Muslim names." <hr /></blockquote>

LOL

LWW
10-31-2007, 08:22 AM
So, what tactics would meet with your approval?

LWW

Bobbyrx
10-31-2007, 10:18 AM
"Had you seen the testimony, during the investigations before the Senate, you would know that the FBI targeted dissenters, to be spied upon, and used broad sweeping methods for spying, which did in fact break the law, and inpinge on many Americans rights" <font color="red"> If they broke the law and it was shown in front of the Senate then I assume they would be procecuted. Why would they not be? </font color>
"Of course, regardless of whether or not any charge against this administration, or their policies, have been admitted, by they themselves, to have been illegal" <font color="red"> No, not regardless....if they broke the law and you have PROOF, why no charges?? </font color>
"The little sheep may continue to bah bah bah, and lie lie lie, but the results of the next election, will render all their black smoke and mirrors laughable, as they will experience a complete wipe out. And how they do deserve it! " <font color="red">The same can be said after either party has been in power for 2 terms. The country was tired of Clinton also. As far as them deserving to be voted out, I agree completely. They blew a great chance, but for different reasons than I think you would agree with.. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif </font color>

Bobbyrx
10-31-2007, 10:53 AM
1. I would expect nothing less from the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Aren't they still trying to show people how to steal music on the internet??
2. Weren't many of the hijackers in Vegas just prior to 9/11. And wouldn't Vegas be a juicey target at Christmas for a terror attack. And maybe they have some information regarding an attack on Vegas (revealed by wire tapping or water boarding I hope) In other words...so what? I would be worried if they weren't trying to get this info..
3. much safer thank you

LAMas
10-31-2007, 11:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Lets start with the right of privacy.
The US Govt now listens in to the phone calls of US citizens, reads your email, can search your house without your knowledge, check every number you have dialed for years and even goes so far to check out what books you have lent from the Library- all in the name of protection.

How do you feel about that?

Q <hr /></blockquote>
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38817-2004Oct16.html

LAMas
10-31-2007, 11:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Lets start with the right of privacy.
The US Govt now listens in to the phone calls of US citizens, reads your email, can search your house without your knowledge, check every number you have dialed for years and even goes so far to check out what books you have lent from the Library- all in the name of protection.

How do you feel about that?

Q <hr /></blockquote>
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38817-2004Oct16.

Madrid Attacks May Have Targeted Election
Wiretaps Bolster Theory That Blasts Were Timed to Hurt Chances of Leader Who Backed Iraq War

By Keith B. Richburg
Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, October 17, 2004; Page A16

MADRID -- Seven months after bombs exploded aboard morning commuter trains in Madrid, killing 191 people, the precise motives of the attackers remain unclear. But new evidence, including wiretap transcripts, has lent support to a theory that the strike was carefully timed to take place three days before a national election in hopes of influencing Spanish voters to reject a government that sent troops to Iraq.

wolfdancer
10-31-2007, 07:46 PM
There are times when a little torture might be in order:
web page (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/10/29/mafia_girlfriend_fbi_used_mob_muscle_to_help_civil _rights_case/)
I see a whole bunch of articles linking Bush directly to torture....but it's an un-winnable argument....

LWW
11-01-2007, 04:21 AM
So, what tactics would you find acceptable?

LWW