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av84fun
10-27-2007, 11:56 AM
Since a lot of bandwidth has been devoted to the topic of pausing at the end of the backstroke, I thought I'd start a new thread on this important issue.

There appears to be a growing tendency to use an INTENTIONAL pause at the most forward position of the forward stroke before initiating the final backstroke.

Cory does it often but not all the time (which I think is a flaw), SVB pauses noticeably and Stevie Moore pauses a LONG time.

But to avoid debate on what constitutes a pause, let me define it as "an intenional and obvious stopping at the most forward portion of the forward stroke for at least one second."

Stevie, who I know personally, is AIMING...which is an admirable and often overlooked thing to do.

Whatever aiming technique might be used, I see the value in MAKING SURE you've got it dialed in properly.

In addition, in my opinion, one of the leading causes of missed shots is tip-to-cue ball contact at a spot you did not intend. Doing so causes unexpected throw/squirt issues that lead to missed shots and the pause at the front gives you the opportunity to focus on the EXACT spot that you wish the tip to impact the CB.

The flowing warm up stoke regime is supposed to allow the player to dial in the speed of the shot but I don't buy that arguement.

I have a drill where I place the OB an inch off the side rail (but directly in front of the side pocket) and the CB an inch off the side rail 2 diamonds up from the foot rail and shoot for the corner pocket while controling my CB travel in one diamond increments.

Success is to stop the CB within one CB width from each diamone beyond the side pocket. I can do that with a high degree of success (90%) EVEN WHEN TAKING NO WARM UP STROKES AND JUST COCKING THE CUE FULL BACK AND DELIVERING ONE FORWARD STROKE INTO THE CB.

So, for me at least, the initial practice strokes do virtually nothing to aid in shot speed control.

Therefore, I don't think anything is lost by pausing at the front (you can STILL take several practice strokes if you want and then pause on the last one0>

And the benefit of the forward pause is DEAD CERTAIN aim accuracy and the creation of an awareness of the EXACT cue tip contact spot.

There must be SOME benefits to the forward pause or it would not be true that a growing number of championship players are using it so I thought this would be a useful topic of discussion.

Regards,
Jim

bradb
10-27-2007, 12:15 PM
Yes... I have allways paused at the front and the back. As Fran says, she can tell when a player is readdy to pull the trigger.

I don't think Corey has hardly any flaws. He just adjusts his stroke to fit the shot needed. For a difficult power stroke he relies on instinct and that is to "feel" the shot and let go of everthing else. But if we examine it in slow motion I'm sure we will see nothing has changed.

1Time
10-27-2007, 12:42 PM
Excellent idea to start a new thread to discuss a pause before the back stroke. I hope either or both of you will stick around long enough in the other thread about a pause at the end of the back stroke to admit how wrong you were.

Fran Crimi
10-27-2007, 12:47 PM
[ QUOTE ]
And the benefit of the forward pause is DEAD CERTAIN aim accuracy and the creation of an awareness of the EXACT cue tip contact spot.
<hr /></blockquote>

Yup. I agree. Famous golf teacher Harvey Pennick had a term that I see quoted a lot by BCA Instructor and author Steve Campana --- "Take dead aim." I think the best place to do that in a golf swing is just before the final takeaway. Same with pool.

I think there are more benefits to that final pause before the takeaway besides aiming. There's a settling down or calming of the mind and body just before the action takes place --- the conclusion that you're ready. All of this goes into executing with confidence.

Fran

av84fun
10-27-2007, 01:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> Excellent idea to start a new thread to discuss a pause before the back stroke. I hope either or both of you will stick around long enough in the other thread about a pause at the end of the back stroke to admit how wrong you were. <hr /></blockquote>

You just can't help yourself can you? ROFLMAO

1Time
10-27-2007, 01:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>
You just can't help yourself can you? ROFLMAO <hr /></blockquote>

I know... you just can't handle the truth.

av84fun
10-27-2007, 01:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
<hr /></blockquote>

There's a settling down or calming of the mind and body just before the action takes place --- the conclusion that you're ready. All of this goes into executing with confidence.

Right...and for me, I use it to remind myself to remain ROCK steady. I make that my FINAL swing thought...especially on crucial, low percentage shots.

My mind set is..."I can't guarantee I'll make the shot but I CAN guarantee putting a great stroke on it and staying ROCK steady.

Over time, I have been astonished at how many times I miss when I do NOT focus on the above and how few times I don't miss when I do.

The question of why we don't get our "minds right" on every single shot answers the question of what is the main difference between champions and also-rans.

Alli first suggested I try the forward pause and then watching Stevie Moore play as often as I have really cememted the deal for me.

I'll see what Scott Lee has to say about all this on Monday! I can't wait!!

(-:

av84fun
10-27-2007, 01:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>
You just can't help yourself can you? ROFLMAO <hr /></blockquote>

I know... you just can't handle the truth. <hr /></blockquote>

Oh...I forgot...you are the KEEPER OF THE TRUTH! Sorry, forgive me. I keep forgetting to fawn and grovel in your presence.

And also forgive my poor memory. Was it the Nobel Prize in physics that you won...or a billiards World Championship???

Just curious. Are you such a condescending know-it-all in your normal daily life or does the anonimity of internet forums bring out that quite irritating and unbecoming aspect of your personality?

In any event...thanks for the laughs.
(-:

1Time
10-27-2007, 02:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>
You just can't help yourself can you? ROFLMAO <hr /></blockquote>

I know... you just can't handle the truth. <hr /></blockquote>

Oh...I forgot...you are the KEEPER OF THE TRUTH! Sorry, forgive me. I keep forgetting to fawn and grovel in your presence.

And also forgive my poor memory. Was it the Nobel Prize in physics that you won...or a billiards World Championship???

Just curious. Are you such a condescending know-it-all in your normal daily life or does the anonimity of internet forums bring out that quite irritating and unbecoming aspect of your personality?

In any event...thanks for the laughs.
(-: <hr /></blockquote>

Whatever excuse you'd like to make that helps keep you from posting in the other thread and admitting you were wrong.

cushioncrawler
10-27-2007, 06:21 PM
Jim -- Yeah, i go along with having a pauze at the end of the front (swing) of the waggle, ie in addition (but before) that pauze at the end of the back (swing). And, i want to add that that preliminary waggle back and foreward shood allso have a certain style itself. What i mean iz that the back to foreward waggle shood start off being fairly large, and then get smaller and smaller, the last waggle being virtually zero back and zero foreward -- then kumz the foreward pauze. I woz taught this by a team-mate.

The 2 pauzes, and the diminishing waggle, all kompliment the "keeping still on the shot", ie "not lifting your head". None of this applyz to filipinoz. madMac.

av84fun
10-27-2007, 08:49 PM
cushioncrawler...Interesting. Thanks!

bradb
10-28-2007, 11:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> Jim -- Yeah, i go along with having a pauze at the end of the front (swing) of the waggle, ie in addition (but before) that pauze at the end of the back (swing). And, i want to add that that preliminary waggle back and foreward shood allso have a certain style itself. What i mean iz that the back to foreward waggle shood start off being fairly large, and then get smaller and smaller, the last waggle being virtually zero back and zero foreward -- then kumz the foreward pauze. I woz taught this by a team-mate.

The 2 pauzes, and the diminishing waggle, all kompliment the "keeping still on the shot", ie "not lifting your head". None of this applyz to filipinoz. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

Max, when the QB is on the rail I find it very useful to waggle (feather) "over the top of the QB" taking a full backswing and full follow throo so as to get a good straight stroke going. Once i find the groove I lower the cue back down, take the final short waggle and begin the shot. This is possible of course because the bridge is higher on the rail and can be elevated for this practice waggle easily, but I have seen some players who don't feel comfortable in their follow throoo, shake it off by doing this same waggle away from the rail also. Its a high bridge follow throoo practice feather. -brad

cushioncrawler
10-28-2007, 03:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>...Max, when the QB is on the rail I find it very useful to waggle (feather) "over the top of the QB" taking a full backswing and full follow throo so as to get a good straight stroke going. Once i find the groove I lower the cue back down, take the final short waggle and begin the shot. This is possible of course because the bridge is higher on the rail and can be elevated for this practice waggle easily, but I have seen some players who don't feel comfortable in their follow throoo, shake it off by doing this same waggle away from the rail also. Its a high bridge follow throoo practice feather....<hr /></blockquote>I know of one ex-champ who aims "over the top of the qball" -- the forewardswing-pauze iz made over the top -- and then he goze straight to the backswing whilst lowering hiz cue and then the backswing-pauze and then the hit.

Re themz qball'on'rail shots, i think that i have had some success doing what u describe. But the best medicine by far iz to have a big flat qtip -- here one might needta have a special cue ready. madMac.

dr_dave
10-28-2007, 03:52 PM
Excellent points. The "set" and forward "pause" are definitely recommended "best practices." See items 1 through 3 in the stroke "best practices" document (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf).

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> Since a lot of bandwidth has been devoted to the topic of pausing at the end of the backstroke, I thought I'd start a new thread on this important issue.

There appears to be a growing tendency to use an INTENTIONAL pause at the most forward position of the forward stroke before initiating the final backstroke.

Cory does it often but not all the time (which I think is a flaw), SVB pauses noticeably and Stevie Moore pauses a LONG time.

But to avoid debate on what constitutes a pause, let me define it as "an intenional and obvious stopping at the most forward portion of the forward stroke for at least one second."

Stevie, who I know personally, is AIMING...which is an admirable and often overlooked thing to do.

Whatever aiming technique might be used, I see the value in MAKING SURE you've got it dialed in properly.

In addition, in my opinion, one of the leading causes of missed shots is tip-to-cue ball contact at a spot you did not intend. Doing so causes unexpected throw/squirt issues that lead to missed shots and the pause at the front gives you the opportunity to focus on the EXACT spot that you wish the tip to impact the CB.

The flowing warm up stoke regime is supposed to allow the player to dial in the speed of the shot but I don't buy that arguement.

I have a drill where I place the OB an inch off the side rail (but directly in front of the side pocket) and the CB an inch off the side rail 2 diamonds up from the foot rail and shoot for the corner pocket while controling my CB travel in one diamond increments.

Success is to stop the CB within one CB width from each diamone beyond the side pocket. I can do that with a high degree of success (90%) EVEN WHEN TAKING NO WARM UP STROKES AND JUST COCKING THE CUE FULL BACK AND DELIVERING ONE FORWARD STROKE INTO THE CB.

So, for me at least, the initial practice strokes do virtually nothing to aid in shot speed control.

Therefore, I don't think anything is lost by pausing at the front (you can STILL take several practice strokes if you want and then pause on the last one0&gt;

And the benefit of the forward pause is DEAD CERTAIN aim accuracy and the creation of an awareness of the EXACT cue tip contact spot.

There must be SOME benefits to the forward pause or it would not be true that a growing number of championship players are using it so I thought this would be a useful topic of discussion.

Regards,
Jim <hr /></blockquote>

bradb
10-28-2007, 05:25 PM
[/quote Max] I know of one ex-champ who aims "over the top of the qball" -- the forewardswing-pauze iz made over the top -- and then he goze straight to the backswing whilst lowering hiz cue and then the backswing-pauze and then the hit.

Re themz qball'on'rail shots, i think that i have had some success doing what u describe. But the best medicine by far iz to have a big flat qtip -- here one might needta have a special cue ready. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

Its a hold over from my snooker days with the skinny diameter cue I used back then. But it works nicely on the small table. I find that with this waggle I can strike much more on line down the table. When your tight on that rail this is crucial since there's only the top of the Qb to work with. Incidently I watched the Mike Segal video and he uses that method when he discusses practicing the follow throo also.

Whenever I go back to playing snooker I find I can't shoot worth a *#%!&amp;#!! with that skinny cue anymore. Makes me wonder if I should'nt have been playing with a wider shaft all along? -brad

cushioncrawler
10-28-2007, 05:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>...Whenever I go back to playing snooker I find I can't shoot worth a *#%!&amp;#!! with that skinny cue anymore. Makes me wonder if I should'nt have been playing with a wider shaft all along?..<hr /></blockquote>A guy i met in adelaide won the state snooker championship uzing a 12.5mm predator pool cue. Right now i am playing billiardz (trying anyhow) uzing an 8.5mm, but my favorit cue iz 11.5mm. madMac.

SKennedy
10-29-2007, 08:17 AM
There is nothing wrong with a pause at the front of the stroke provided the balls on the table are stationary. However, if the balls are in motion......

bradb
10-29-2007, 10:17 AM
(quote av84fun) So, for me at least, the initial practice strokes do virtually nothing to aid in shot speed control.


I went back and read your post again, I don't agree completely that the pace is not a factor when going through the pre shot routine. You are talking about QB placement with a preset speed of the hit in your analysis. QB placement is mostly dependent on where the cue tip hits the QB. Speed or pace is of course is the amount of force in the stroke. For me at least 90% of my shots are exactly the same stroke and pace, its a matter of qtip placement. That way I always have the same stroke. So yes, speed is a given in preparation in most shots. But... When faced with a control shot (say a delicate hit) then I do lock in the speed as part of my pre shot routine. That means a short backswing to get a feel of the pace. -brad