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Wally_in_Cincy
10-30-2007, 10:55 AM
Occasionally, but mostly not. Most wars are over land, power, and resources. Atheists are responsible for many more deaths than religious fanatics.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1121/p09s01-coop.html

<font color="red"> It's time to abandon the mindlessly repeated mantra that religious belief has been the greatest source of human conflict and violence. Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history.
</font color>

Chopstick
10-30-2007, 11:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> Occasionally, but mostly not. Most wars are over land, power, and resources. Atheists are responsible for many more deaths than religious fanatics.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1121/p09s01-coop.html

<font color="red"> It's time to abandon the mindlessly repeated mantra that religious belief has been the greatest source of human conflict and violence. Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history.
</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Ideas have been the cause of all killings. Atheism, religion, power, etc are just labels we put on the ideas. The skill we seem to lack is to separate the good ideas from the bad ones.

It is for the sake of our ideas that we rant and cuss at each other. Is that little squirt of electricity in our brains really worth harming another...killing another?

We are all caught up in the delusion of it all now. They want to kill us because of our ideas and we must kill them or be killed. The delusion is self propagating. The only way it will ever end is if:

A) There is nobody left.
B) We learn to value people more than ideas.

cushioncrawler
10-30-2007, 04:29 PM
Had a quick look -- that Dinesh D'Souza reads like a jezus freak prikk -- it makes me sick trying to read that sort of krap. Much more interesting -- check out "dwindling in unbelief". I have mentioned this site before. It lists the killings in the bible. God is responsible for 2,270,365+, and even 32.9million (counting the flood). Satan iz given az killing 10 (just by the way). Clearly (when u read what they say god said) god iz in favour of all sorts of killing, mainly religeous.

When the pope bishops etc tell africans not to wear condoms etc, how many extra africans died (will die) of aids etc due directly to the advice?? It could be more than the stalin hitler mao efforts.

Even the question iz stupid. The question shood be how many atheists have killed how many people koz of atheist beleefs. Very few, unfortunately -- here we need to inklood the bishops killed in russia to try to help wipe out christianity. Then compare this to how many were killed somewhere sometime koz someone didnt like another god -- lots and lots killed. madMac.

moblsv
10-30-2007, 04:38 PM
Atheism has no power over the people. Even in many of the common "atheist" examples, religion was still used as a primary means of control.

Using Atheism as a means of control is like herding cats.

wolfdancer
10-30-2007, 05:38 PM
Wally, don't have the definitive answer myself, but this looks like a good take on the topic.
web page (http://stechfordbaptist.org.uk/You%20and%20God/Questions/War.html)
It seems like my Catholic ancestors had to do a lot of killing to spread the word that "God is Love"
We even had to kill off a few thousand "Injuns" here to save their souls.
But the answer is "No" religion has been a factor, but many more have been slaughtered for other reasons...like big oil profits..
The real question though is Did God order GWB to begin this war? (as is alleged)
And from another Christian site....again, the answer is "No"

Then they go on to give reasons why Christians shouldn't even vote for GWB.....heresy I believe.Seditious though, according to LWW (now thar's a brain might need a little exorcism).
And this is telling...only 3% care where the train stops for their offsprings, Heaven or Hell....while 39% were concerned about what school they would attend.
I'm going over there to suggest Liberty University, which could solve both problems (glad to help out, really) web page (http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2007/07/23/did-god-tell-george-bush-to-invade-iraq/)

S0Noma
10-30-2007, 06:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>
Ideas have been the cause of all killings. Atheism, religion, power, etc are just labels we put on the ideas. The skill we seem to lack is to separate the good ideas from the bad ones.

It is for the sake of our ideas that we rant and cuss at each other. Is that little squirt of electricity in our brains really worth harming another...killing another?

We are all caught up in the delusion of it all now. They want to kill us because of our ideas and we must kill them or be killed. The delusion is self propagating. The only way it will ever end is if:

A) There is nobody left.
B) We learn to value people more than ideas. <hr /></blockquote>

Very well said. Tap - Tap - Tap

Drop1
10-30-2007, 07:42 PM
There are not enough Atheists to start a war,do you include countries outside our culture? What religion were the following,Gangas Kahn,Julius Ceaser,Atila the Hun,Hirohito,Alexander the Great? Was dropping the atom bombs on Japan a religious decession? Are we in Iraq for religious reasons? You ever hear of "The Cargo Cults?" Was the cold war,a religious war? Did Custer die for religious reasons? Do you call Osama Bin Laden a religious man? During WW11,did both sides pray to the same God? Was Hitler a religious man? I won't ask about GWB,"Res Ipso". I take it you are a Christian.

S0Noma
10-31-2007, 12:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> Occasionally, but mostly not. Most wars are over land, power, and resources. Atheists are responsible for many more deaths than religious fanatics.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1121/p09s01-coop.html

<font color="red"> It's time to abandon the mindlessly repeated mantra that religious belief has been the greatest source of human conflict and violence. Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history.
</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Well, Wally, I read the article and I have to tell you that the guy really creeps me out. Maybe it was the title of the book he was about to publish that put me off for starters: "The Enemy at Home: The Cultural Left and Its Responsibility for 9/11."

I dunno Wally, last I checked the attack on 9/11 was carried out by the Arab minions of Osama Bin Laden and he orchestrated it because he was pissed off at the US for sullying Muslim soil with their troops way back around the time of the Gulf War.

I mean, not to get off the subject of how many people the mean old atheists might have killed versus how many people the xtians have killed over the centuries but, you know?

When 9/11 happened and Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson tried to make out that it was god's vengeance on us because of the sins of the gays and women's liberation? I knew they were both total whack jobs. So, right off the bat, what this dude's book title reading the way it did - I kinda suspected that he might be farging nuts too - know what I mean? I'm sure you do.

So here's the drill - atheism means without belief in a god or gods. It doesn't mean that they don't believe that there is no god - just that they don't feel there is sufficient evidence at present to prove that there is - show em a god and make it indisputable and they'll all go with it. Until that time? The atheist jury is still out.

Atheism is not a religion - with the exception of not having any god beliefs, atheist don't always have a whole lot in common with each other. Certainly, Stalin might not have held any god beliefs but he killed everybody regardless of race, color or creed - he killed them because they failed to meet some bizarre standard of political acceptability (and because he was a raving paranoid psychotic) - for him, it wasn't about his atheism it was about his need for a totalitarian government.

Few people know this, but during WWII the Russians had a standing military order that surrender was punishable by death - in other words - it wasn't okay to do it. But of course, millions of Russian soldiers did surrender to Hitler's troops and at the end of the war a whole lot of those POW's ended up in Allied hands. Estimates as high as 28 million have been bandied about but, we may never know for sure. Anyway, the long and the short of it was that Stalin's army had captured a whole bunch of territory and accumulated a ton of Allied POW's in the process. So, end of the war comes and everybody's all tense over the POW thing. We want our guys back - so do the French and the British too. But... we know about this 'surrender/death penalty' thing that the Russians have going on and we're not too keen on giving up all those POW's to be slaughtered.

Well, as you might guess, push comes to shove and the Russians are demanding the return of their POW's and the Allies are faced with the grim choice - send the guys back to almost certain death or keep em in the West and maybe never see our guys again. Tough choice, huh? I mean, we're not atheists - not the majority of us anyway - mostly xtians last time I checked - and the British and the French were too (more or less). But, we make the decision - I mean, after all is said and done, what's a few million Russian POW's getting killed once they return home compared to not getting our own POW's back - right?

So we cut the deal - and the Russian POW's went back home and we got our own guys back. We really didn't have too much choice in the matter - or did we? Who knows now? It's long since done and over.

Alexander Solzhenitsyn was a Russian prisoner up in Siberia at the time of the exchange. He writes in his book, 'The Gulag Archipelago' about the 'waves of gray' (gray was the color of soviet soldiers winter coats) coming to the prison camps - most of whom never made it home alive.

No it wasn't atheism that killed those guys - it was politics - and deal makers and trade offs - and in between a whole bunch of people got killed - millions. Did we, Americans have a hand in that? Bear some responsibility for what happened? You could argue that in some small way - we did.

People kill people, Wally. Whether it's for religious reasons or political reasons or whatthefuckever reasons? They just do it and during the Twentieth Century they did it on an industrial scale. Stalin didn't believe in a god or gods - but he was killing people because they weren't atheists like him - he killed them to wield power over the rest of his nation. Hitler started out as a Catholic - but eventually he was killing everyone too - same reasons as Stalin - totalitarian government - politics.

We sent an estimated 28 million Soviet POW's back to Russia and to their prospective deaths (us and the Brits and the Frogs) - not because of our xtian religious views - but for political reasons.

Hope you understand my point? Blaming religion or blaming lack of religion is the easy - simple answer - the real answer is far more complicated and not nearly as easy to understand.

hope this helps

Sonoma

bamadog
10-31-2007, 03:42 AM
"So here's the drill - atheism means without belief in a god or gods. It doesn't mean that they don't believe that there is no god - just that they don't feel there is sufficient evidence at present to prove that there is - show em a god and make it indisputable and they'll all go with it. Until that time? The atheist jury is still out."i
----------------------------------------------------------------
A small correction comes to mind here. Atheists deny the existence of God.
Agnostics cannot confirm nor deny. It is generally understood that the jury is still out for the agnostics. Atheists have made up their minds.

Secondly, I believe your figure of 28 million captured and repatriated Soviet soldiers is off by at least 25 million.

Third, Stalin may not have killed solely because he was an atheist. However, had he been a Christian, his savagery may have been ameliorated by the vestiges of faith and the Christian message of mercy hidden deep in his very disturbed mind.

Finally, Is it only a coincidence that the greatest mass murderers of all time, Mao and Stalin, were atheists? Together they were responsible for around 100 million deaths.

Gayle in MD
10-31-2007, 05:52 AM
Bravo Chop!

I must say, you do impress me occasionally. This post of your definitely nails it!

Kudos.

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
10-31-2007, 06:00 AM
Well put, friend,
WE shall never know the number of killings in small communities of man, people sacrificed to the God's of volcano erruptions, thrown off cliffs, to assuage the God of the Ocean, the sun, the animals, the calculation could never be made, as to how many people have been slaughtered in the name of organized religion.

Mostly athiests, stand watching, scratching their heads, wondering how such ignorance, and pointless extremism, can gain so much power?

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
10-31-2007, 06:04 AM
Nailed it! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif Control, power, force, dictatorship, fear, all are the tools of organized religion. Self hatred, is the breeding ground. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

hondo
10-31-2007, 06:18 AM
Well, I never read the article, but I also believe that most so-called "Religious Wars" in reality are about
geed, envy, power, corruption, money, and they use
religion as an excuse.
I don't think Wally was saying it was a war on religion,
just that it was not a battle between 2 religious sides.
Right, Wally? Wrong? Maybe I should read the article. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
10-31-2007, 06:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> Well, I never read the article, but I also believe that most so-called "Religious Wars" in reality are about
geed, envy, power, corruption, money, and they use
religion as an excuse.
<hr /></blockquote>

That does happen. Most times they don't even bother making an excuse. Or they use jingoism as an excuse.

I probably did not phrase my original post properly. Getting ready to clarify it now.

Wally_in_Cincy
10-31-2007, 06:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr>

People kill people, Wally. Whether it's for religious reasons or political reasons or whatthefuckever reasons? They just do it and during the Twentieth Century they did it on an industrial scale. Stalin didn't believe in a god or gods - but he was killing people because they weren't atheists like him - he killed them to wield power over the rest of his nation. Hitler started out as a Catholic - but eventually he was killing everyone too - same reasons as Stalin - totalitarian government - politics.

<hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for proving my point.

The word "atheist" really struck a nerve and I really should not have used it in that context.

I don't blame atheists per se for wars. My point was that I am tired of hearing "religion has caused more wars than anything else". It's just not true. Most wars are about land, resources, and power.

Just trying to get folks to think about it.

and sorry about the Russian POW's. They had the misfortune to be born in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Gayle in MD
10-31-2007, 08:10 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Most wars are about land, resources, and power.
<hr /></blockquote>

But organized religion, is almost always a tool in the wrong doing.

This is surely a strange time to be trying to prove that organized religion is not a part of disasterous consequences to mankind, and the tool of those zealots which prosecute them.

You are brave, Wally.

Wally_in_Cincy
10-31-2007, 09:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>
But organized religion, is almost always a tool in the wrong doing.

<hr /></blockquote>

Not sure what that means.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>
This is surely a strange time to be trying to prove that organized religion is not a part of disasterous consequences to mankind, and the tool of those zealots which prosecute them.

<hr /></blockquote>

Fanatical Islam maybe.

Not Christianity or Buddhism or Hinduism as far as I know. Not mainstream Islam for that matter, to whatever degree that it exists.

Are you being persecuted by evangelical Christians?

Is there some freedom you can't enjoy because of organized religion?

When's the last time a war was started in the name of Christianity? And don't say Iraq because you know it is not true.

When was the last person persecuted or imprisoned because they refused to profess Christianity?

Everybody keeps going back to the Crusades. The Crusades were a response to what the Muslims were doing. Give me a war in the modern era that was started in the name of religion.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>
You are brave, Wally. <hr /></blockquote>

Maybe, but it doesn't take a lot of courage to defend something you believe in.

wolfdancer
10-31-2007, 03:00 PM
I would have thought that the two new resident experts on
"All Things Considered" would have chimed in by now, to enlighten us?
But maybe too busy over on AZB, declaring
"Mission Accomplished"
web page (http://mk5.dhis.org/sounds/wav/misc/drum2.wav)

cushioncrawler
10-31-2007, 03:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr>....Atheism is not a religion - with the exception of not having any god beliefs, atheist don't always have a whole lot in common with each other....

.....Alexander Solzhenitsyn was a Russian prisoner up in Siberia at the time of the exchange. He writes in his book, 'The Gulag Archipelago' about the 'waves of gray' (gray was the color of soviet soldiers winter coats) coming to the prison camps - most of whom never made it home alive....<hr /></blockquote>Yeah, i reckon that atheists dont brainwash children, nor blackmail the general community, nor threaten and blackball their own.

Lost count of the arguements i had with my dad re stalin and communism. Dad's oldest brother woz an officer in the polish army, and so naturally he woz sent to siberia and never seen again. Dad (an ordinary soldier) woz sent to work on a german farm, he had to hide in the last dayz of the war koz he knew that he woz marked for elimination (for special reezons i wont go into here). It woz difficult to argue with dad that there woz no such thing az communizm (certainly not in russia), just a bunch of criminals (the ozzy aboriginals were commiez for 200,000 yrs reezonably well untill democracy got them). Just like there iz no such thing az democracy in the USA (big bizness rules). madMac.

cushioncrawler
10-31-2007, 03:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bamadog:</font><hr>....Third, Stalin may not have killed solely because he was an atheist. However, had he been a Christian, his savagery may have been ameliorated by the vestiges of faith and the Christian message of mercy hidden deep in his very disturbed mind. Finally, Is it only a coincidence that the greatest mass murderers of all time, Mao and Stalin, were atheists? Together they were responsible for around 100 million deaths.<hr /></blockquote>Did u read what i said about god'z killing in the bible???? What "vestiges of faith", what "message of mercy". Are u kidding.
And i repeat, there iz a difference between "atheists killing" and "atheists killing for atheist reezonz". Perhaps u dont understand!!! For example when stalin killed bishops koz they were bishops, then this woz certainly in the second category (unfortunately some got away and they bred up again). madMac.

bsmutz
10-31-2007, 03:16 PM
I read recently that malaria has killed more people since the beginning of our existence than all other causes combined. I say we wage our war with the darn mosquitoes and forget religion &amp; politics.

cushioncrawler
10-31-2007, 03:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Well put, friend, WE shall never know the number of killings in small communities of man, people sacrificed to the God's of volcano erruptions, thrown off cliffs, to assuage the God of the Ocean, the sun, the animals, the calculation could never be made, as to how many people have been slaughtered in the name of organized religion. Mostly athiests, stand watching, scratching their heads, wondering how such ignorance, and pointless extremism, can gain so much power?...<hr /></blockquote>Gayle -- Actually pagan sacrifices amounted to very few killed.
Looked at in a cold light, theze (few) praktices often helped to keep the public "happy". I read that, over hundreds of years, there were fewer wars and civil-wars etc in most pagan societyz, and fewer total killings (perhaps 1000's), compared to modern (christian) standards (1,000,000's).

cushioncrawler
10-31-2007, 03:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> I read recently that malaria has killed more people since the beginning of our existence than all other causes combined. I say we wage our war with the darn mosquitoes and forget religion &amp; politics.<hr /></blockquote>Koz of global warming, i suspekt that malaria will be shortly coming to a state near u. madMac.

S0Noma
10-31-2007, 03:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>

The word "atheist" really struck a nerve and I really should not have used it in that context.

<font color="blue">What context Wally? You mean that totally biased and inflammatory article that you linked to and the baseless quote you copy/pasted from it? Hells bells man, think nothing of it! I know where you're coming from bro. Peace out! </font color>

I don't blame atheists per se for wars. My point was that I am tired of hearing "religion has caused more wars than anything else". It's just not true. Most wars are about land, resources, and power.

<font color="blue">Yep, but some of em get fought because the populace is easily manipulated by superstition (aka religion). Consider those IslamoFascists - you think that religion isn't a motivating factor in their efforts to terrorize the planet? Or the American fundamentalists who backed going to war in Iraq because of how they feel about the Muslims? The religious beat goes on Wally - like it or not.

http://i10.tinypic.com/5yrjyom.jpg
</font color>

Just trying to get folks to think about it.

<font color="blue">Yeah, me too. </font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

LWW
10-31-2007, 03:43 PM
We used to do just that...and then the greenies printed a crock of lies which had DDT banned and has caused millions of deaths since.

LWW

LWW
10-31-2007, 03:44 PM
Here's your defect, and by fixing it you can fix your worldview.

You post an artist's depiction and can't differentiate it from actual history.

LWW

bamadog
10-31-2007, 03:50 PM
Did you notice that I said Christian? Can you show me some passsages from the Gospels where Jesus implores his followers to kill?

LWW
10-31-2007, 03:52 PM
Dawg, you know they don't like havin ta thank thangs out!

LWW

S0Noma
10-31-2007, 03:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bamadog:</font><hr> Did you notice that I said Christian? Can you show me some passsages from the Gospels where Jesus implores his followers to kill?

<hr /></blockquote>

Maybe not Haysoose but there's a ton of em attributed to his dad in the old testament. Oh boy! Talk about a mean mofo!

Every bible I've ever seen comes with both the new part and the old part. As per usual xtian cherry pickers decide which parts they like the best and discard most of the rest.

LAMas
10-31-2007, 03:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> I read recently that malaria has killed more people since the beginning of our existence than all other causes combined. I say we wage our war with the darn <font color="green"> </font color> mosquitoes and forget religion &amp; politics. <hr /></blockquote>

http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0407/0407carson.htm

<font color="green"> Go green and die: </font color>

Rachel Carson and the malaria tragedy

By Dennis Avery
web posted April 16, 2007

If Rachel Carson were still alive, April 12 would have been her 100th birthday. All over the Western World well-meaning, but misguided, souls marked that day with choruses of praise for the woman who almost singly-handed created the modern environmental movement. Her book, Silent Spring, warned us that man-made pesticides would kill our kids with cancer and eliminate our wild birds.

Since Silent Spring was published, of course, massive testing has documented that synthetic pesticides are no cancer threat to humans. Dr. Bruce Ames, who received the National Science Medal from President Clinton, has found that 99.999 percent of the cancer risks in our food supply come from natural pesticides which Nature has put in the fruits and vegetables to ward off the pervasive insects, fungi and diseases. Even so, the one-fourth of our population which eats the most fruits and vegetables has half the cancer risk of those who eat the least produce. So much for the toxicity of pesticide traces.

Rachel Carson's major impact on the planet has been to discourage the use of a safe, cheap pesticide called DDT to suppress disease-bearing mosquitoes. North America and Europe used DDT to eradicate malaria. After our children were safe, we told the Third World not to use it because it might harm their bird populations.

The absence of DDT has led to the needless deaths of at least 30 million people from malaria and yellow fever in the tropics. (Five times as many as Hitler killed in his concentrations death camps, albeit inadvertently). Most of them were helpless African children. In addition, malaria has been allowed to blight the lives of perhaps 1 billion chronic malaria sufferers, who are too often unable to work and further erode economic resources by requiring family nursing care. The millions of malaria cases in the tropics may, just by themselves, explain half of the poverty and human degradation on the planet today.

It's not widely known that Ms. Carson originally had a co-author for Silent Spring. His name was Edwin Diamond, and he had been Science Editor of Newsweek. Early in the drafting of the book, he resigned from the project. He declared later that Silent Spring was an "emotional, alarmist book seeking to cause Americans to mistakenly believe their world is being poisoned."

About saving birds: Nothing could be more appropriate for Rachel's 100th birthday than to dial up the Audubon Society's annual Christmas eagle counts from 1900–2000 for a first-hand view of the destruction wrought on our national bird by DDT. The "Journey North Bald Eagles" website has it, among others.

The chart shows fewer than 100 eagles counted per year from 1900 to about 1940 in the inhabited regions of the United States. Farmers, hunters, and fishermen shot and poisoned our national bird because it competed for fish—and occasionally lambs and calves. The government even paid a bounty for the dead birds.

Fortunately, for us and the eagles, the Bald Eagle Protection Act was passed in 1940, and the bounties ended. This began a slow but eventually spectacular surge in eagle numbers. DDT was not used in North America until 1946; by 1972, when DDT lost its registration, the annual Christmas bird count was up nearly 3000 eagles. In recent years, Audubon has counted as many as 16,000 eagles per year.

One of the most effective Third World uses of DDT is to spray the inside of homes. It's the most cost-effective mosquito repellent known. Instead of a mosquito entering the home; biting someone; spreading the disease; and dying hours later, the mosquito never comes in. One application every six months is enough to reduce malaria rates by 60 percent. DDT is the only highly effective strategy we have for suppressing this massive problem. If malaria made a comeback in America, the EPA would have to re-register DDT.

The U.S. Agency for International Development is now offering modest funding for the indoor use of DDT in poor tropical countries—30 years late. Happy Birthday, Ms. Carson.

bamadog
10-31-2007, 04:04 PM
[quote=cushioncrawler -- Actually pagan sacrifices amounted to very few killed.
Looked at in a cold light, theze (few) praktices often helped to keep the public "happy". I read that, over hundreds of years, there were fewer wars and civil-wars etc in most pagan societyz, and fewer total killings (perhaps 1000's), compared to modern (christian) standards (1,000,000's). <hr /></blockquote>

Well, that is simply obvious as their civilizations were pre-technological. Pretty hard to kill millions with spears. Also their political entiities were rather small by modern standards. It is difficult to sustain large urban populations without fairly high technology. Also difficult to outfit and maintain large armies without surplus economies, which rely on technology. And the population of the world as a whole has exploded in the last 500 years.

cushioncrawler
10-31-2007, 04:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bamadog:</font><hr>Did you notice that I said Christian? Can you show me some passsages from the Gospels where Jesus implores his followers to kill?<hr /></blockquote>The skeptic's annotated bible mentions the following possible references. But in reply i could ask -- "show me where in the bible jesus mentions the need to follow the 10 commandments". madMac.

"......Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34

He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." -- John 15:6

"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God ...he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone ... And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever." -- Revelation 14:10-11

"The fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." -- Revelation 21:8 ....."

Wally_in_Cincy
10-31-2007, 04:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> I read recently that malaria has killed more people since the beginning of our existence than all other causes combined. I say we wage our war with the darn mosquitoes and forget religion &amp; politics. <hr /></blockquote>

The environmentalists pushed for a ban on DDT.

30 million people have died of malaria as a result since then.

bamadog
10-31-2007, 04:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bamadog:</font><hr>Did you notice that I said Christian? Can you show me some passsages from the Gospels where Jesus implores his followers to kill?<hr /></blockquote>The skeptic's annotated bible mentions the following possible references. But in reply i could ask -- "show me where in the bible jesus mentions the need to follow the 10 commandments". madMac.

"......Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34

He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." -- John 15:6

"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God ...he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone ... And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever." -- Revelation 14:10-11

"The fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." -- Revelation 21:8 ....."
<hr /></blockquote>

Good effort, however only three are from the Gospels and do not "implore" the followers of Jesus to murder. Did you even read them?

I have no interest in getting into a dueling scriptures discussion here, so don't bother. If you do not understand that one of the salient messages of Christianity is mercy, I have no interest in trying to persuade you. I just don't get into those types of discussions.

cushioncrawler
10-31-2007, 04:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bamadog:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler -- Actually pagan sacrifices amounted to very few killed. Looked at in a cold light, theze (few) praktices often helped to keep the public "happy". I read that, over hundreds of years, there were fewer wars and civil-wars etc in most pagan societyz, and fewer total killings (perhaps 1000's), compared to modern (christian) standards (1,000,000's).[/quote:</font><hr>Well, that is simply obvious as their civilizations were pre-technological. Pretty hard to kill millions with spears. Also their political entiities were rather small by modern standards. It is difficult to sustain large urban populations without fairly high technology. Also difficult to outfit and maintain large armies without surplus economies, which rely on technology. And the population of the world as a whole has exploded in the last 500 years.<hr /></blockquote>Nah -- The bible mentions 1,000,000's of slayings in pre-teck dayz.

cushioncrawler
10-31-2007, 05:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bamadog:</font><hr><hr /></blockquote>....I have no interest in getting into a dueling scriptures discussion here, so don't bother. If you do not understand that one of the salient messages of Christianity is mercy, I have no interest in trying to persuade you. I just don't get into those types of discussions.<hr /></blockquote>I would be interested to know what sorts of mercy are being handed out by christians. madMac.

Wally_in_Cincy
10-31-2007, 05:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LAMas:</font><hr> Rachel Carson and the malaria tragedy

<hr /></blockquote>

Thank you finding and posting that LAMas.

Wally_in_Cincy
10-31-2007, 05:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> I would be interested to know what sorts of mercy are being handed out by christians. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

WHERE CAN WE START?

Food banks.

Support for expectant mothers.

Car repair for single moms.

Meals for the homeless.

meals for the elderly.


I hate to insult you there boss but your posts are incredibly stupid. You need to rethink your position.

wolfdancer
10-31-2007, 06:21 PM
Perhaps you didn't read "Silent Spring" or think it a work of fiction...
fortunately, we got sumthin even better... Malathion....
"Children frequently exposed to household insecticides used on plants, lawns and in head lice shampoos appear to run double the risk of developing childhood leukaemia, new research suggests.

A study by French doctors published recently supports concerns raised in recent years about the use of toxic insecticides around the home and garden, including plant sprays, medication shampoos and mosquito repellents. Detailed interviews were carried out with 280 children diagnosed with acute leukaemia and 288 children matched for sex and age but disease free. The research showed that the risk of developing acute leukaemia was almost twice as likely in children whose mothers said that they had used insecticides in the home while pregnant and long after the birth. Similar findings were discovered in the use of insecticide shampoos for head lice and garden insecticides and fungicides.

A group of pesticides known as carbamates, which are present in plant treatments, lice shampoos and insect sprays are most commonly linked to cases of leukaemia. There are three main carbamates used in the UK – carbaryl, carbfuran and carbosulfan. Scientists have also drawn attention to the potential ‘cocktail effect’ when apparently safe chemicals are used in combination with others.

Malathion is the other “active ingredient” commonly used in lice preparations and has long been known to be a deadly insecticide, a couple of drops of pure malathion can kill an adult human. The fumes are also deadly - a person attending hospital if this is known as the poison will get a separate room, masks on all attending staff and IMMEDIATE treatment. It is absorbed through the airways, the skin (particularly mucous linings, such as eyelids, nostrils and the mouth), and all of the digestive system, and has been found in major internal organs including the brain. Apart from being capable of killing anything that's not a plant, Maliathon is genotoxic (causes genetic mutations, like cancer) and weakens the immune system. The concentration used in lice treatments is small, but would you want to apply it to your child’s scalp?

Acute symptoms in humans include nausea, headache, tightness in the chest, and other symptoms typical of acetyl- cholinesterase inhibition. Unconsciousness, convulsions, and a "prolonged worsening illness" are also typical of malathion poisoning at high doses. The pesticide has been shown to affect both the adrenal glands and the liver of rats. It also has effects on blood clotting time in test animals."

wolfdancer
10-31-2007, 06:26 PM
Damn, looks like you been cut to the core again, by the next poster. That's probably already posted over there on the Major's board, with a Gold Star.

cushioncrawler
10-31-2007, 06:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> I would be interested to know what sorts of mercy are being handed out by christians..<hr /></blockquote>WHERE CAN WE START? Food banks.
Support for expectant mothers. Car repair for single moms.
Meals for the homeless. meals for the elderly. I hate to insult you there boss but your posts are incredibly stupid. You need to rethink your position.<hr /></blockquote>Wally -- Thanks for themz listingz. Of course the volume of help etc meted out would be of interest. Hmmm -- Would christians vote for the party who promised to mete out more of that sort of mercy????? madMac.

Wally_in_Cincy
10-31-2007, 06:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Perhaps you didn't read "Silent Spring" or think it a work of fiction...
fortunately, we got sumthin even better... Malathion....
"Children frequently exposed to household insecticides used on plants, lawns and in head lice shampoos appear to run double the risk of developing childhood leukaemia, new research suggests.

<hr /></blockquote>

so you would rather they die of malaria?

my dad used malathion every year in his garden, where I worked, and I have somehow avoided the plague of leukemia.

Wally_in_Cincy
10-31-2007, 07:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> Wally -- Thanks for themz listingz. Of course the volume of help etc meted out would be of interest. Hmmm -- Would christians vote for the party who promised to mete out more of that sort of mercy????? madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

The Right believes in charity that is doled out by individuals. The recipient has the pleasure of looking the recipient in the eye and saying "Thank you" or "i will get my act together soon so I don't have to depend on the kindness of strangers".

The Left believes the government should take rightly and fairly earned money from taxpayers, skim about 50% off the top for administrative expenses, and send a check in the mail to which the recipient, who feels no gratitude, but instead he feels entitlement.

Which option do feel is better for the human soul?

wolfdancer
10-31-2007, 07:13 PM
consider yourself fortunate....I don't know the first thing about the introduction of chemicals into the human body, and the long term debilitating effects of ingesting them.....I do seem to remember how DDT got into the groundwater, then into our streams and rivers, into our fish and wildlife, and then into us....Who knows we might all have three arms and one centered eye by now if we hadn't banned it's use...and by now the mosquitoes would be immune to it's effect.
At least we wouldn't have the dominant eye thing to worry about.

cushioncrawler
10-31-2007, 07:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Perhaps you didn't read "Silent Spring" or think it a work of fiction... fortunately, we got sumthin even better... Malathion.... "Children frequently exposed to household insecticides used on plants, lawns and in head lice shampoos appear to run double the risk of developing childhood leukaemia, new research suggests.<hr /></blockquote>so you would rather they die of malaria? my dad used malathion every year in his garden, where I worked, and I have somehow avoided the plague of leukemia.<hr /></blockquote>Wally -- Without going into DDT loozing its effekt with time, did u know that christians could fix malaria for all of the world's poorer countrys by simply scraping together about 4 billion dollars a year to pay for very effective medication and very effective preventative measures. Would christians vote for a party that promised to help pay the costs. Would christians vote for this sort of mercy -- nope -- so much for christ's messages of mercy. madMac.

Wally_in_Cincy
10-31-2007, 07:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> consider yourself fortunate....I don't know the first thing about the introduction of chemicals into the human body, and the long term debilitating effects of ingesting them.....I do seem to remember how DDT got into the groundwater, then into our streams and rivers, into our fish and wildlife, and then into us....Who knows we might all have three arms and one centered eye by now if we hadn't banned it's use...and by now the mosquitoes would be immune to it's effect.
At least we wouldn't have the dominant eye thing to worry about. <hr /></blockquote>

why dont you google side effects of ddt

kathy is already bitcing at me about spending too much time on the computer

had fun handing out treats to youngsters this halloween night though

Wally_in_Cincy
10-31-2007, 07:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> Wally -- Without going into DDT loozing its effekt with time, did u know that christians could fix malaria for all of the world's poorer countrys by simply scraping together about 4 billion dollars a year to pay for very effective medication and very effective preventative measures. Would christians vote for a party that promised to help pay the costs. Would christians vote for this sort of mercy -- nope -- so much for christ's messages of mercy. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

What are you talking about? 4 bil is a drop in the bucket to cure malaria. Where did you come up with that number?

Bush commited 15 bil to combat aids in africa

bring back ddt and the problem will be greatly excarbated.

bamadog
10-31-2007, 07:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Perhaps you didn't read "Silent Spring" or think it a work of fiction... fortunately, we got sumthin even better... Malathion.... "Children frequently exposed to household insecticides used on plants, lawns and in head lice shampoos appear to run double the risk of developing childhood leukaemia, new research suggests.<hr /></blockquote>so you would rather they die of malaria? my dad used malathion every year in his garden, where I worked, and I have somehow avoided the plague of leukemia.<hr /></blockquote>Wally -- Without going into DDT loozing its effekt with time, did u know that christians could fix malaria for all of the world's poorer countrys by simply scraping together about 4 billion dollars a year to pay for very effective medication and very effective preventative measures. Would christians vote for a party that promised to help pay the costs. Would christians vote for this sort of mercy -- nope -- so much for christ's messages of mercy. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

Who do you think gives more money to charities, the secular liberals or the religious right? I'm talking at all income levels.

cushioncrawler
10-31-2007, 08:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bamadog:</font><hr>...Who do you think gives more money to charities, the secular liberals or the religious right? I'm talking at all income levels...<hr /></blockquote>Charities are krudd. Hardly any money goze overseas. Of the little that duzz, next to zero goze to where we hoped. Not that i give to charities, i hang up the phone. But, i do give to greenpeace. madMac.

cushioncrawler
10-31-2007, 09:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> Wally -- Thanks for themz listingz. Of course the volume of help etc meted out would be of interest. Hmmm -- Would christians vote for the party who promised to mete out more of that sort of mercy????? madMac.<hr /></blockquote>The Right believes in charity that is doled out by individuals. The recipient has the pleasure of looking the recipient in the eye and saying "Thank you" or "i will get my act together soon so I don't have to depend on the kindness of strangers". The Left believes the government should take rightly and fairly earned money from taxpayers, skim about 50% off the top for administrative expenses, and send a check in the mail to which the recipient, who feels no gratitude, but instead he feels entitlement. Which option do feel is better for the human soul?<hr /></blockquote>Wally -- I feel good when i hang up on thoze pesky phony charityz who phone allmost daily. Wonder how much it cost to build all them churches -- u go throo an old (now dead) town and see 3 churches on the same hill. madMac.

cushioncrawler
11-01-2007, 12:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> Wally -- Without going into DDT loozing its effekt with time, did u know that christians could fix malaria for all of the world's poorer countrys by simply scraping together about 4 billion dollars a year to pay for very effective medication and very effective preventative measures. Would christians vote for a party that promised to help pay the costs. Would christians vote for this sort of mercy -- nope -- so much for christ's messages of mercy. madMac.<hr /></blockquote>What are you talking about? 4 bil is a drop in the bucket to cure malaria. Where did you come up with that number? Bush commited 15 bil to combat aids in africa.
bring back ddt and the problem will be greatly excarbated.<hr /></blockquote>I got $3B for medicine (per year) from an official site, i got some stuff about giving mozzy nets and an alternativ poizon to ddt from another site, but the $1B for this iz my figure. Mozzy nets are $5 each. madMac.

wolfdancer
11-01-2007, 12:42 AM
My stepfather had more fun then the kids had on Halloween. He had a barrel chest, short neck, and he would answer the door, wearing a sheet....the effect was pretty scary, because they weren't expecting it. He loved kids though, and after scaring them, he'd take off the sheet and get them laughing...Around here, they just don't dress up and go trick or treating...

eg8r
11-01-2007, 06:49 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Charities are krudd. Hardly any money goze overseas. <hr /></blockquote> Strawman. No one is talking about overseas and frankly I wish a heck of a lot less would go overseas. We have plenty of people in need right here in the US.

[ QUOTE ]
Not that i give to charities <hr /></blockquote> Your fellow citizens in need appreciate it.

eg8r

Qtec
11-01-2007, 06:59 AM
Back to the topic.

No, Religion doesn't cause wars, people do.

Q

eg8r
11-01-2007, 07:02 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Back to the topic.
<hr /></blockquote> Ha, I see you are turning a new leaf. When did you decide to try and stay on topic?

eg8r

Qtec
11-01-2007, 07:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Back to the topic.
<hr /></blockquote> Ha, I see you are turning a new leaf. When did you decide to try and stay on topic?

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Ed, you know me, I always stay on topic! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif


......unlike 'Abbott and Costello'........ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Gayle in MD
11-01-2007, 08:17 AM
[ QUOTE ]



Fanatical Islam maybe.
<font color="blue">Wally, GWB, Plainly stated that he consulted a higher power to make his decision to launch war. A man who was making his decision according to reality, might just have consulted his own father, instead, who had had years more experience in Middle East Affairs, and in running this country. This is a clear cut example, IMO, of religious fanaticism, causing death and destruction fo many others, helpless to jump free of the skewed religious based screwed up ideals of both fanatical Islamists, and the radical Christian nut in the White House. </font color>

Not Christianity or Buddhism or Hinduism as far as I know. Not mainstream Islam for that matter, to whatever degree that it exists.

<font color="blue">Sorry, but it hasn't been that long since Protestants and Catholics in Ireland were killing one another off like crazy. Radical Christians, assasinating Doctors who perform abortions, and blowing up abortion clinics, in the name of God?

Thousands of children, molested by priests? Organized religion isn't the tool used for their demonic behavior?

Gays, women and blacks, have historically been abused, and discriminated against, by Christians, who use biblical teachings to justify it. </font color>

Are you being persecuted by evangelical Christians?

<font color="blue">Not just me, my entire country. They're trying to undo the principles upon which this country was founded. They have become a political movement, and if you don't think they played a rold in installing Bush, for religious reasons, and to the great damage to our country, untimately hundreds of thousands dead because of it, sorry, I can't agree. Women, gays, and blacks, (Katrina) have been bashed with much more regularity since the religious right organized itself into a political movement, to the detriment of our country, IMO. </font color>

Is there some freedom you can't enjoy because of organized religion?

<font color="blue">The freedom of all Americans has been under attack since the religious right used their power in our elections. the private decisions of families, women and homosexuals, under severe attack. I see a great deal of loss of personal privacy, options, and self respect chipped away at, all as a result of Christian Conservativism, wrongly called compassionate conservativism. </font color>

When's the last time a war was started in the name of Christianity? And don't say Iraq because you know it is not true.

<font color="blue">Who did George Bush consult? </font color>

When was the last person persecuted or imprisoned because they refused to profess Christianity?
<font color="blue">I don't know him/her personally, but I'm sure it is not a lost phenomena. We're discussing organized religion, correct? When was the last woman in the Middle East, stoned to death, because some idiots started rumors about her. Every woman covered up like a black, hooded monster, walking around in 115 deegree temperatures, is being discriminated against, as a direct consequence of organized religion. Many of the priests who abused young boys, used "God" and Christian philosophy to justify their evil actions. I could go on, but I think you get my point. </font color>

Everybody keeps going back to the Crusades. The Crusades were a response to what the Muslims were doing. Give me a war in the modern era that was started in the name of religion.
<font color="blue">All religious wars are a response to what the other religious guys are doing. This war, in Iraq, is a direct result of colliding religious philosophies. Christianity, Vs. Islam. What was the last thing the terrorists said before crashing into the WTC? Who did Bush say he consulted before launching this war? What do "They" use as their main criticism agsint the West? All based on their religious philosophy.

What is the most devision rhetoric taking place in our society today? Much of it is religious based, although, finally, due to such pointless distractions, other more pressing issues are now moving these ridiculous religious wars of ideology to the side. Not too many Americans are focused on who's kissing whom, now, or who's praying where. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">People should be free to worship, or not, but the use of religious ideology, as a form of dictatorship for all, or a reason to degrade some in our society, through the use of government, or legal methods, is wrong. If the religious right has become a political movement, then let them pay their damned taxes, just like everyone else must do to have a voice, accept for the corporate fascist pigs, that is. </font color>

DickLeonard
11-01-2007, 08:22 AM
Mad Mack I don't know where Wally got the figures that GWB donated 15 billion to help stamp out aids in Africa he sent a Missionary to preach on abstinence to the WHO and they wouln't let him speak so they reduced their giving. Bill Gates gives more money than the US. Condoms are the only answer until a vaccine/medicene is developed.

There is an article in the New Yorker Magazine entitled Polictal Science about all the programs in colleges and universities being denied funding for exixting scientic studies because the Christian Whacos in the White House think there UnChristian not Scientific.####

eg8r
11-01-2007, 08:31 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Mad Mack I don't know where Wally got the figures that GWB donated 15 billion <hr /></blockquote> It was mentioned in the 2003 State of the Union Address. To quote Bush... <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bush:</font><hr> I ask the Congress to commit $15 billion over the next five years, including nearly $10 billion in new money, to turn the tide against AIDS in the most afflicted nations of Africa and the Caribbean. (Applause.) <hr /></blockquote>

[ QUOTE ]
Condoms are the only answer until a vaccine/medicene is developed.
<hr /></blockquote> Abstinence is the only GAURANTEED answer. Condoms are not 100% effective.

eg8r

bamadog
11-01-2007, 10:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Mad Mack I don't know where Wally got the figures that GWB donated 15 billion to help stamp out aids in Africa he sent a Missionary to preach on abstinence to the WHO and they wouln't let him speak so they reduced their giving. Bill Gates gives more money than the US. Condoms are the only answer until a vaccine/medicene is developed.

There is an article in the New Yorker Magazine entitled Polictal Science about all the programs in colleges and universities being denied funding for exixting scientic studies because the Christian Whacos in the White House think there UnChristian not Scientific.#### <hr /></blockquote>

Why don't you start a thread about the administation denying this funding that you mention? That could be fun to discuss.

LWW
11-01-2007, 11:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Perhaps you didn't read "Silent Spring" or think it a work of fiction...<hr /></blockquote>
Actually, it's been proven to have been pretty much a work of fiction. Whether that was by error or intent remains debatable, I suspect error, but it's accuracy is known to be missing.

LWW

LWW
11-01-2007, 11:09 AM
And you base this assessment on what?

What charitable deeds do YOU do for your fellow man?

LWW

Bobbyrx
11-01-2007, 11:10 AM
<font color="red"> Just to pick out one thing: </font color> "blacks, (Katrina) have been bashed with much more regularity since the religious right organized itself into a political movement" <font color="red">Please explain </font color>

bamadog
11-01-2007, 11:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bobbyrx:</font><hr> <font color="red"> Just to pick out one thing: </font color> "blacks, (Katrina) have been bashed with much more regularity since the religious right organized itself into a political movement" <font color="red">Please explain </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Good luck trying to get her to answer that question with anything even approaching truthfulness. Everyone knows that the Liberal Dems are the real racists. Sorry, off topic.

Wally_in_Cincy
11-01-2007, 12:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bobbyrx:</font><hr> <font color="red"> Just to pick out one thing: </font color> "blacks, (Katrina) have been bashed with much more regularity since the religious right organized itself into a political movement" <font color="red">Please explain </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

If she does actually answer it will be so long and rambling your eyes will roll back in your head before you're halfway thru. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I guess she did not read about all the thousands of churchgoers who went down there on their own dime to help out. Heck I know a teenage girl who went down to New Orleans to volunteer again this summer, almost 2 yers after the storm.

cushioncrawler
11-01-2007, 05:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr>And you base this assessment on what? What charitable deeds do YOU do for your fellow man?..<hr /></blockquote>I vote greens. The greens will fix theze sorts of things. But, in a way, i am not a humanitarian, i dont beleev in that stuff, with all due respekt to good people doing lots of good stuff out there. I am a greeny, we in effekt are humanitarians of a different sort. We try to help all of the intelligent humans who are to follow in the next 100,000 yrs say. Not just the selfish superstitious ignorants who currently infekt our planet, and who are mostly poizon for the environment and the future. Anyhow, thats the theory. madMac.

Bobbyrx
11-02-2007, 11:57 AM
<font color="red"> trying again </font color>
Just to pick out one thing: Quote Gayle "blacks, (Katrina) have been bashed with much more regularity since the religious right organized itself into a political movement" Please explain thank you