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hondo
10-31-2007, 06:46 PM
My daughter calls me a Zen Baptist.
Others would simply call me a liberal Christian.
i believe that Jesus was the manifestation of God on Earth, died, & rose from the dead to return to the Father.
I believe that the Bible was inspired by God's presence but was written by man & has been tampered with during & before the Council of Nicea.
I believe that fundamentalists are afraid to be well read
about the growth of Christianity and many times do more damage than good.
I believe All cultures' beliefs should be respected and that there are many paths to God.
I believe that when Christ said, " I am the way the truth, & the light, and no one comes to the Father except through me," He was talking about Christ Consciousness and not some religion.
I don't necessarily believe that Yahweh in the Old Testament is the Father Christ refers to.
I believe in the possibility of re-incarnation, UFOs
and satori.
I believe wars are man-made & not sanctioned by God.
I believe that prayer is being open to God's will, and that we can acquire spiritual knowledge, gnosis, by shutting out the interior noise in our head & listening.
I see no reason to doubt both Creation & evolution.
The world IS very ancient.
Comments?

eg8r
10-31-2007, 07:10 PM
Wow you really covered quite a bit. I agree with some of what you said and not so much with others. Maybe some explanation over a game of pool would clear that up. The one that I don't understand at all is... [ QUOTE ]
I believe that when Christ said, " I am the way the truth, &amp; the light, and no one comes to the Father except through me," He was talking about Christ Consciousness and not some religion. <hr /></blockquote> Not sure what you mean by "not some religion". Is there another religion that believes this? I don't know, it seems like all other religions worship many other things or people in addition to a "god". The statement above, the quote, is very specific in who all your faith and belief have to be in...Jesus (who is God the Father and the Holy Spirit, just to confuse things). You cannot worship Mary, Muhammed, etc and be in agreement with the quote above. What do you think?

eg8r

wolfdancer
10-31-2007, 07:25 PM
I believe, Bro. Hondo, that you have opened yourself up to all kinds of "attacks"
Wouldn't it be nice though, if more people shared your "liberal" view of Christianity, leaving the door open a bit for those with other sectarian beliefs. I was taught that Catholics are the only ones going to Heaven....imagine my surprise when I heard they might let some Protestants in as well...and an even greater shock when I found out from the LDS folks that there is a Heavenly Hierarchy, and it's all been predestined, what rung on the ladder you can reach.
As a sinner myself, I doubt if I'll get a shot at them 7 virgins... seconds maybe, or even thirds???
Not sure I can handle 7 anyway, at my age....might be why only the good die young.

hondo
10-31-2007, 07:32 PM
Thanks for responding. To me Christ is a living truth &amp;
not some religion called Christianity.What we have today
is the Puritans' concept of St. Augustine's interpretation
of Paul's interpretation of Christ.
Those words by Christ have been used by those of the
Christian religion as an endorsement of their religion and a damnation of all other beliefs.
Do I believe that a Buddhist or a Hindu or a Muslim
can have Christ Consciousness? Yes, I do.
Do I think only those of the Christian religion can get into Heaven? No, I do not.

cushioncrawler
10-31-2007, 07:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr>....I see no reason to doubt both Creation &amp; evolution. The world IS very ancient. Comments?<hr /></blockquote>Hondo -- I have allwayz wondered how kum creationists dont simply say that god created evolution. Problem solved (mostly). madMac.

hondo
10-31-2007, 07:46 PM
Makes sense to me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

eg8r
10-31-2007, 08:02 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Hondo -- I have allwayz wondered how kum creationists dont simply say that god created evolution. Problem solved (mostly). madMac. <hr /></blockquote> Why would they bother saying that when Genesis denounces it?

eg8r

cushioncrawler
10-31-2007, 08:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Hondo -- I have allwayz wondered how kum creationists dont simply say that god created evolution. Problem solved (mostly). madMac.<hr /></blockquote>Why would they bother saying that when Genesis denounces it? eg8r<hr /></blockquote>I see that the KingJamesbible uzes wordage like...
...let the earth bring forth...
...let the waters bring forth...
...made...
...created...
...brought forth...
...let there be...
How duz any of this deny the creation of evolution??? madMac.

wolfdancer
10-31-2007, 10:59 PM
I believe for every drop of rain that falls
A flower grows
I believe that somewhere in the darkest night
A candle glows
I believe for everyone who goes astray, someone will come
To show the way
I believe, I believe

I believe above a storm the smallest prayer
Can still be heard
I believe that someone in the great somewhere
Hears every word

Everytime I hear a new born baby cry,
Or touch a leaf or see the sky
Then I know why, I believe

Everytime I hear a new born baby cry,
Or touch a leaf or see the sky
Then I know why, I believe

LAMas
10-31-2007, 11:14 PM
Wolf'
That's beautiful.
Did you write it?

wolfdancer
11-01-2007, 12:34 AM
"Wolf" is lucky he can write his own name.
That's a great old Frankie Layne song

hondo
11-01-2007, 06:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr>....I see no reason to doubt both Creation &amp; evolution. The world IS very ancient. Comments?<hr /></blockquote>Hondo -- I have allwayz wondered how kum creationists dont simply say that god created evolution. Problem solved (mostly). madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

A better answer than I gave the 1st time.
God created everything, including man.
God created DNA and has let things evolve from there.
Although, I feel God or something may have tampered
with the evolutionary process at some point.

hondo
11-01-2007, 06:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Hondo -- I have allwayz wondered how kum creationists dont simply say that god created evolution. Problem solved (mostly). madMac.<hr /></blockquote>Why would they bother saying that when Genesis denounces it? eg8r<hr /></blockquote>I see that the KingJamesbible uzes wordage like...
...let the earth bring forth...
...let the waters bring forth...
...made...
...created...
...brought forth...
...let there be...
How duz any of this deny the creation of evolution??? madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

Good point. Much of the "battle" between science and
religion comes from our interpretations of Genesis.
Is a day just a day in God's eye?
"And God created the word and the word was" BANG!

hondo
11-01-2007, 06:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> .
That's a great old Frankie Layne song <hr /></blockquote>

Rawhide! Hee yaw!

eg8r
11-01-2007, 06:23 AM
Just to be clear there are two different forms of evolution that get convoluted in discussions like this, there is macro and micro. As a Christian I do not believe in macro-evolution one bit. As the Bible states, God created everything. Micro-evolution is something that I very much agree exists. We have many different types of dogs, and they all were not created at the same time. [ QUOTE ]
I see that the KingJamesbible uzes wordage like...
...let the earth bring forth... <font color="red"> He is specific on what it should bring forth, not choose willy nilly whatever it wanted. The earth was told what to "bring forth". </font color>
...let the waters bring forth... <font color="red"> same here. He is also specific in saying how the world would be populated..."be fruitful and multiply". This does not lend itself to evolution either. Have you ever seen proof that a rock was fruitful and out came something alive? Nope. </font color>
...made...
...created... <font color="red"> Hello, made and created are nothing close to evolution. The bible does not say made or created from an accident that happened along the way during a 100 million year journey. </font color>
...brought forth... <font color="red"> means, that is where they come from. Fish are brought forth in the water. This does not say fish came from nothing because of an accident that happened during the 100 million year long journey. </font color>
...let there be... <font color="red"> Does this sound like an accident, he is speaking it in to existence. </font color>
How duz any of this deny the creation of evolution?? <hr /></blockquote> You are welcome to pick and choose whatever you think you want it to say but you are definitely not doing yourself or anyone else a favor.

eg8r

hondo
11-01-2007, 03:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> Wow you really covered quite a bit. I agree with some of what you said and not so much with others.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

After reading some of your posts I would be curious as to which of my beliefs you agree with? Thanks.

eg8r
11-01-2007, 04:32 PM
Agree:
<font color="blue"> 1.i believe that Jesus was the manifestation of God on Earth, died, &amp; rose from the dead to return to the Father.
2. I believe that the Bible was inspired by God's presence but was written by man
3. I believe that fundamentalists are afraid to be well read
about the growth of Christianity and many times do more damage than good.
4. I believe wars are man-made &amp; not sanctioned by God.
5. I believe that prayer is being open to God's will, and that we can acquire spiritual knowledge, gnosis, by shutting out the interior noise in our head &amp; listening.
</font color>

Of the others I completely disagree or only agree with a small portion.

eg8r

LWW
11-01-2007, 04:32 PM
Charles Darwin would be appalled at what is being pawned off in his name today.

LWW

hondo
11-01-2007, 04:52 PM
Fair enough. Thanks for the reply.
However, I did see an alien once.
Looked uncannily like Ann Coulter. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

eg8r
11-02-2007, 12:05 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Deeman3
11-02-2007, 12:28 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
I, pretty much down the line, agree with your beliefs and those where I don't are not signifigant. If you described these to my wife, she's probably say I wrote them.

In addition, I believe God plays much less a role in our physical life than most believers think.

I also believe we should have very little torerance for Islam as it wants to destroy all other people and even the ones who don't believe that don't denounce it.

I would be quicker to believe in reincarnatin than UFO's, unless, of course, verified by Dennis Kucinish...and his hot wife...

wolfdancer
11-02-2007, 01:20 PM
Both Leno and Letterman had a lot of fun with the UFO comment, last night. I think they are real, because that would also explain where Bigfoot and Nessie came from....but not to worry....they seem only interested in "studying"
people who's IQ is less then their height in inches.....
There have been sightings recently over Alabama....but either a tin foil hat, or a motorcycle helmet will protect one from being "probed"

Deeman3
11-02-2007, 02:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Both Leno and Letterman had a lot of fun with the UFO comment, last night. I think they are real, because that would also explain where Bigfoot and Nessie came from....but not to worry....they seem only interested in "studying"
people who's IQ is less then their height in inches.....
There have been sightings recently over Alabama....but either a tin foil hat, or a motorcycle helmet will protect one from being "probed" <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">We, in Alabama, have other weapons to keep us from being probed not the least are a much better selection of weapons as well as our homophoiba merit badges. However, I do believe that not wating to be "probed" is more a sign of choice than a birth defect. I saw a special on Bonnie and Clyde last night where they explained his overall poor attitude and marghinal interpersonal skills with early "probing" that he received at the hands of fellow prisoners in Texas before that practice went away in that State (as well as in Iran). /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

"Oh, what a web we weave when we let them grab our feet." Sen. Craig &amp; Barney Frank....a match made in Minneopolis.

I somehow don't trust the Scotts (my own people) to spot Nessie when they all seem to do it after 6 pints. Bigfoot, my last wife, no question....

I do have the motrocycle tin foil hat, just for protection against lightening...

....of my skin</font color>

hondo
11-02-2007, 03:05 PM
He doesn't deserve her. She's too hot!

hondo
11-02-2007, 03:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
I, pretty much down the line, agree with your beliefs and those where I don't are not signifigant. If you described these to my wife, she's probably say I wrote them.

In addition, I believe God plays much less a role in our physical life than most believers think.

I also believe we should have very little torerance for Islam as it wants to destroy all other people and even the ones who don't believe that don't denounce it.

I would be quicker to believe in reincarnatin than UFO's, unless, of course, verified by Dennis Kucinish...and his hot wife... <hr /></blockquote>

Thank you. Nice to know others think somewhat like me.

SKennedy
11-04-2007, 07:29 PM
Scotts?
Deeman..I knew there was something about you I liked.

Drop1
11-04-2007, 09:57 PM
You sound like a nice guy,that has hit on a way to be comfortable,as you go through life,congratulations. My own view,is Organized Religion is Faith born of guilt.

hondo
11-04-2007, 10:18 PM
I'm a little dubious of organized religion myself.
My beliefs aren't very organized.
I've found that there is a difference between
spirituality and religion.
Religion has done its damnest to drive people away
from a belief in a higher power.
All one can do is investigate what the truth is,
and if you don't believe, you don't believe.
Try reading the words of Krisnamurti. He never
addresses the concept of God, but he can open some paths.

Deeman3
11-05-2007, 08:51 AM
I firmly beleive you don't have to have a church to be religous nor a group to be spiritual. The less organized a faith is the more likely I am to agree with it's principals.

However, faith is much too important and personal to be narrowing defined by any man, other than by and for ones self.

Blind faith is as dangerous as no faith.

Gayle in MD
11-05-2007, 09:54 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I also believe we should have very little torerance for Islam as it wants to destroy all other people and even the ones who don't believe that don't denounce it.

<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">Have you forgotten all the demonstrations around the world after 9/11, by Islamists, Muslims, against the terrorist's attack on our country? I don't think all of their leaders do their share in denouncing the radical elements in their religion, some are afraid to do so, but I do think that many many of them do, and most cetainly, all do not agree with those interpretations of their religion. It is not Islam, which wants to destroy us. It is certain people, within the Islamist faith.

What we are seeing, is just one more example of how arguments between men, over WHOM God is, and what He wishes, plays a role in uncivilized, violent actions, killing, and war, radical and inhumane ideology. Results, of cetain men, using their own power, to destroy all and anything, that anyone's God would truly wish for His children.

All Islamists, or Muslims, do not approve of the radical interpretations within their various sects.

To speak against tolerance, is to support radicalism, in a sense. Tolerance, and humility, IMO, are the only tools which can overcome hatred and viloence. Forgiveness, compassion and love, the bedrock of peace, and self love, the way to find it.

Gayle in Md. </font color>

Gayle in MD
11-05-2007, 09:59 AM
Dear Hondo,
I am proud of your journey.

Love,
Gayle

wolfdancer
11-05-2007, 10:07 AM
It's not quite on point, but last night on the History channel, there was a documentary on Jonestown...an example of what can go wrong when you have a charismatic religious leader who mixes himself up with the divinity. He was a respected Preacher in SF, and had the support of many local politicians...900 plus men, woman, and children paid the ultimate price for that nutcake. Wonder how many paid the price for the Jerry (Fail)well's of this century?

Deeman3
11-05-2007, 10:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> It's not quite on point, but last night on the History channel, there was a documentary on Jonestown...an example of what can go wrong when you have a charismatic religious leader who mixes himself up with the divinity. He was a respected Preacher in SF, and had the support of many local politicians...900 plus men, woman, and children paid the ultimate price for that nutcake. Wonder how many paid the price for the Jerry (Fail)well's of this century? <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">I watched that special. I thought it was strange to have some of the actual participants speaking, his son and others.

Christianity has been perverted by some in the past and will always be on some level. The difference is that while these nuts get some attention and, on occasion, cause horrible harm to the gullible, most are denounced by almost all Christians and we don't have an "outbreak" of follows on a wide scale. Perhaps the worse that reached outside the CXhirstian community was the bombings of abortions clinics a few years back. Instead of catching on and become a long term problem, unilke the Muslim Jehads, it was roundly denounced by all and prosecuted, therefore practically going away.

When radical Muslim views are not only not denounced by mainatream Muslims but in many cases at least mildly embraced, hate does "catch on."

Those 900, unfortunate as they were, are an example of a Marxist leader using faith as a building block with weak minded individuals. The faith was only a tool, much like any form of brainwashing, left and right, that people who abandon self determination and let any group, government or politics totally define them are subject to and of.

You see uninformed sheep on Jaywalking, Survivor and other products of victim TV and culture. It should not surprise anyone that they become used and killed. Blaming religeon for weak personal strength is not fair as almost any cult following can be manipulated, Hillaryland, Bush syndrone, it's all the same. I, for one, am thankful Hillary is just another version of Bush. At least the din will subside a bit while we pretend real change.

Who knows what Jerry caused? I believe it's more a product of stupid people rather than relgeon and doctrine gone amock. If we let all the Lemmings follow the crazies, there's more left for the real survivors anyway. </font color>

DickLeonard
11-05-2007, 11:31 AM
Eg8r Catholics don't worship Mary, they pray to her to intercede with her Son on their behalf now Mohammad that is another story. ####

hondo
11-05-2007, 11:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>

However, faith is much too important and personal to be narrowing defined by any man, other than by and for ones self.

<hr /></blockquote>

That is a main point that Krishnamurti tries to make.
I'm not a follower of Krishnamurti. He's just got
some neat insights.

hondo
11-05-2007, 11:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Dear Hondo,
I am proud of your journey.

Love,
Gayle <hr /></blockquote>

Thank you, Dear. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bamadog
11-05-2007, 11:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;

<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">Have you forgotten all the demonstrations around the world after 9/11, by Islamists, Muslims, against the terrorist's attack on our country?

It is not Islam, which wants to destroy us. It is certain people, within the Islamist faith.



</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

What demonstations by Islamists? Do you mean the open celebrations in Muslim Capitals?

Duh!

Btw, an "Islamist" is a fascist Muslim.

LWW
11-05-2007, 12:19 PM
You can't call a fascist a fascist here Dawg...they gits riled.

Now, even in time of war, you can call Americans who oppose fascism fascists...unless theys a Democrat like Lieberman...the they's is called traitors to the cause.

LWW &lt;---Finally getting acclimated to the traditions in these here parts.

sack316
11-05-2007, 01:27 PM
Hondo, much like Deeman I would think anyone who knows me that read that may think I have written that as well. Any difference in opinion I may have is minor.

Deeman, where you said "In addition, I believe God plays much less a role in our physical life than most believers think." Definitely agree with you in the physical sense, but the notion of a God watching and guiding effects (or even dictates) the daily lives of many people... so in that sense "his" physical role is manifested through man in all things. Well, at least that's what man would like to think, if nothing else. Much like a child in december suddenly being on their best behavior trying to make up for bad deeds in the eyes of Santa Claus. Who wants coal?

I also believe Religion is for people who are afraid of going to hell, Spirituality is for people who have already been there. I don't go to church, I rarely read the bible, but consider myself a very spiritual person.

Sack

hondo
11-05-2007, 01:41 PM
Good post, Sack. I pretty much agree about the lack of interference on God's part, but I also think that it is possible to "petition the Lord with prayer" as Jim Morrison would put it.
However, I think that for the most part prayer is simply being open to God's will.

Deeman3
11-05-2007, 01:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Have you forgotten all the demonstrations around the world after 9/11, by Islamists, Muslims, against the terrorist's attack on our country? <font color="blue"> I have not forgotten the lack of demonstrations against the 9/11 attacks but do remember the throngs of Muslins worldwide cheering and dancing in the streets. We discussed this at that time on this forum and you could not point out examples of widespread condemnation of the attacks in Muslim world no matter how you tried. </font color> I don't think all of their leaders do their share in denouncing the radical elements in their religion, some are afraid to do so, but I do think that many many of them do, and most cetainly, all do not agree with those interpretations of their religion. <font color="blue"> Perhaps not, but the very lack of them coming out, through fear or implied agreement leaves the same impression. If they are willing to sacrifice their faith for their beliefs, it would seem the least thery could do. I know this makes no sense to a non-beleiver as the easy, safe path is not always right to a person of faith. </font color> It is not Islam, which wants to destroy us. It is certain people, within the Islamist faith. <font color="blue"> It damn sure looks like Islam and the "certain people" would certainy seem to be a very large group.</font color>

What we are seeing, is just one more example of how arguments between men, over WHOM God is, and what He wishes, plays a role in uncivilized, violent actions, killing, and war, radical and inhumane ideology. <font color="blue"> I see almost no such "arguments". The vast majority of people are insular in thier faith, not challenging other faiths as you would suggest.</font color> Results, of cetain men, using their own power, to destroy all and anything, that anyone's God would truly wish for His children. <font color="blue"> The very same can be said of secular men now and in history. You are using God to make a point that is more universal to bad people, not just religous people. </font color>

All Islamists, or Muslims, do not approve of the radical interpretations within their various sects. <font color="blue">
On the whole, they do a great job of masking this non-approval. I have seen only a very few cases of brave Muslims speaking out and have acknoledged that when it has happened </font color>

To speak against tolerance, is to support radicalism, in a sense. Tolerance, and humility, IMO, are the only tools which can overcome hatred and viloence. Forgiveness, compassion and love, the bedrock of peace, and self love, the way to find it. <font color="blue"> To not speak against radicalism is support of evil people, in every sense. Tolerance and love seem to be fairly ineffective weapons against bombs strapped to people. </font color> DeeMan

</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

bamadog
11-05-2007, 01:51 PM
Well said Deeman!

sack316
11-05-2007, 02:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> Good post, Sack. I pretty much agree about the lack of interference on God's part, but I also think that it is possible to "petition the Lord with prayer" as Jim Morrison would put it.
However, I think that for the most part prayer is simply being open to God's will. <hr /></blockquote>

Well said. I know for me personally (namely as a recovering alcoholic) that left to my own devices I tend to destroy myself. For some reason it's just the nature of... well... ME. Anytime I have attempted to assume absolute control of my own life, I have tended to screw it up by one means or another. Then, at my lowest of lows it is then I would turn to prayer, to my God, for some help and understanding. Eventually things would begin to turn around through BOTH myself and some token of my spirituality (I believe at least). I would then slowly beging to turn away again, and repeat previous cycle ad nauseum.

Over time I, like many others, have struggled with the concept of a "God" and what it is, does he or she exist, etc. I guess the basic questions that a logical mind can't help but question in a world we understand by using our five senses... trying to understand something that cannot be seen, touched, heard, smelled, or tasted.

But over time, and the places my life has taken me, I've come to see the fact that there is something greater than my understanding looking out for me. Otherwise I would have surely been dead many times. What that something was one could still struggle with forever. In AA, of all places, I found my greatest relief when they said things like "higher power" and "a god of MY understanding". The thought that what God is doesn't have to be absolute from one person to the next was a small burden lifted.

So, like you, I believe all religions should be respected. Personally I feel the key is simply to believe in something, anything, out there that can be good. Without faith, without the thought of there being some greater purpose, what would people work towards? What would become of man and the world? I suppose it better to assume we have some greater purpose and spend our days questioning what that purpose may be, than it would be to KNOW that there is nothing.

I still suppose there is some possibility that all religion could be some great fairy tale. That Jesus may have been nothing more than the Criss Angel of his day. That all these ideals and scriptures were set forth by wise men in order to prevent man from running wild all his days on Earth. I mean, look at us now and what we do when most of the world does believe there is some form of God looking down on us that we should appease. Can you imagine if we didn't?

I'll be content to believe in something that I'll never understand, if nothing else, because the alternative would be much much worse for me personally.

Sack

Gayle in MD
11-05-2007, 02:40 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I have not forgotten the lack of demonstrations against the 9/11 attacks but do remember the throngs of Muslins worldwide cheering and dancing in the streets. We discussed this at that time on this forum and you could not point out examples of widespread condemnation of the <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="red">There were many demonstrations, by Muslims, in Europe, and even in Iran, against radical Islamists, and against al Qaeda. Surely, you must have seen some of them? </font color>

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps not, but the very lack of them coming out, through fear or implied agreement leaves the same impression. <font color="red">Implied agreement? Right, I'm sure you'd be the first one to demonstrate in an area where Al Qaeda was roaming the streets. There were many religious Muslim leaders, who spoke out against radical Islam, I think you sound like a man who hates all Islamists, because of a relatively small precentage of radical elements who have completely bastardized their religion into something which it was never intended to mean. The bible says, an eye for an eye, does it not? Surely, many in the crusades used biblical propaganda to justify their own inhumanities. The Islamic religion, is not about hate. Perhaps, you should learn about it, for you surely are not being fair in your estimates. </font color> If they are willing to sacrifice their faith for their beliefs, <font color="red">Who is "they." Moderate Islamists are not sacrificing their faigh, for their beliefs. </font color> it would seem the least thery could do. <font color="red">OIC, you hold every peaceful Muslim accountable for what the radical, heartless, killer Muslims do? Isn't this the very thing you get so angry about, against critics of your own "Christian" belief system? Please explain how this view of yours, can be justified, with any reasonable explaination, other than "Hate"</font color> I know this makes no sense to a non-beleiver as the easy, safe path is not always right to a person of faith. <font color="red">Up on your Holier than thou pulpit, again, Deeman? It may interest you to know, that to many spiritual people, organized religion is not a pre-requisite to making a choice to leave no harmful wake in ones path, nor to taking the path of goodness, kindness, forgiveness, understanding and compassion. And, in fact, the desire to be safe, seems to be more a goal for believers, than for non-believers, in organized religion, which has absolutely nothing to do wtih faith, or spirituality, or goodness.</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

[ QUOTE ]
. It damn sure looks like Islam and the "certain people" would certainy seem to be a very large group.

<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red">Well, they are not. Do you have any idea how many Muslims there are in the world? Believe me, if all Muslims believed as al Qaeda believes, as you suggest, none of us would be here. I'm really surprised at you Deeman. Radical Muslims are very few, in comparison to how many peaceful Muslims there are in our world, and they do speak out against the radical elements. You would not be likely to read of it in the Weekly Standard, however.</font color>

[ QUOTE ]
I see almost no such "arguments". The vast majority of people are insular in thier faith, not challenging other faiths as you would suggest. <font color="red">You are overlooking centuries of history with that statement, are you not? </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

[ QUOTE ]
The very same can be said of secular men now and in history. You are using God to make a point that is more universal to bad people, not just religous people.
<hr /></blockquote>
<font color="red">Far from it, I am referring to religious doctrine, being used by man, quite a different thing than using God. Using God, is what organized religion does. </font color>

[ QUOTE ]
On the whole, they do a great job of masking this non-approval. <font color="red">Perhaps you do a great job of ignoring it? </font color> I have seen only a very few cases of brave Muslims speaking out <font color="red">The streets of Iran, and many European countries, were filled with Muslims, outraged, and demonstrating against radical Islamists, al Qaeda, after 9/11. Perhaps, you were only tuned into Fox? </font color> and have acknoledged that when it has happened <font color="red">Really, certainly not on this board? </font color>

[ QUOTE ]
To not speak against radicalism is support of evil people, <font color="red">Or really? You obviously did not feel that way about others, such as myself, who spoke out against the radical Christians, such as Jerry Falwell, who grossly insulted all homosexuals, women, and others, Americans, in our country, blaming them for 9/11, did you? Nor did you feel that way when I spoke out against radical Christians, brainwashing children, in religious camps, did you? Did you pseak out against Coulter, saying the widows of 9/11 were enjoying their husbands deaths? I'd say that was pretty radical.</font color> in every sense. <font color="red">Oh, and in every sense, according to Deeman's black and white world, and btw, if this isn't lumping all Islamists into one category, what is? </font color> Tolerance and love seem to be fairly ineffective weapons against bombs strapped to people. <font color="red">Yes, and also against people who drop them from the sky, or shoot them from tanks, or ships. I'm sure, there are many dead Iraqis, Afghanis, and others, who would agree with that statement, only very few of them were killed by radical Islamists. In fact, in our lifetimes, most have been killed by White men of "Faith"/ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

<hr /></blockquote>

hondo
11-05-2007, 03:42 PM
I really appreciate you sharing that.
I found it very moving.
I believe that I have always intuitively known
there is a higher power and that's something
you simply can't explain to a non-believer.

Wally_in_Cincy
11-05-2007, 04:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> <font color="blue">Have you forgotten all the demonstrations around the world after 9/11, by Islamists, Muslims, against the terrorist's attack on our country? </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Like the others, I missed that. You must have dreamed it.

I distinctly remember the Palestinians dancing in the streets.

wolfdancer
11-05-2007, 04:06 PM
People have always been looking for the "answer", and while I don't know anything about how cults, lure you in, I know once you are in there, it's damn hard to get out.
I was once invited to a Werner Earhardt EST lecture. The auditorium was packed, 5000 people....I wasn't impressed with him...but I was impressed that Doctors, Lawyers, and CEOs has set all the seating up, and were acting as ushers. I also wasn't impressed that Werner was the only one to decide when we could have a bathroom break...the last time somebody tried to do that to me...I was in first grade and just peed my pants...this time though I made it.
In the end it's all a form of mind control...and it's unfortunate that in many cases, it begins with some religious figure head, (but then what we are all really searching for is the truth about God, what better hook?)....who then goes crazy with his power....just like in the book I am writing about the GWB admin: "The Maddening of King George"

Gayle in MD
11-05-2007, 04:14 PM
That is only one country, Wally. You didn't see the videos from Iran? Europe? Jordan? Holland? I could go on, but if denial is going to be your only answer, there isn't much point in telling the story.

All Muslims, do not strap bombs on to kill Americans. Are you accountable for everything that every Christian does? Deeman's statements, are not the statements of a man who is speaking from factual information. Most Muslims are as horrified by the radical elements within their religion, as we are. And, they are angry by the war their beliefs are being bastardized by the radical elements which have interpreted it in ways which they feel are not the same philosophy to which they subscribe. And people who state that all are responsible for the actions of a few, do not help the problems we face in the world at the present time.
Those who deny that Muslims did demonstrate against what happened here on 9/11, are as radical in their statements, as our enemies have been all along. There has to come a time when you people who think that bombs are the only answer, begin to realize that you can't kill every muslim in the world, for what a fraction of them have done. To think otherwise, is about as radical as one can get, IMO.

Gayle in Md.
Gayle in Md.

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
11-05-2007, 04:25 PM
Gayle,

On these points you and I can never agree. You see Muslims coming outr denouncing the violence in droves while I just missed tham and was certainly not just looking at Fox news as you imply. You will continue to defend Muslims and claim that there are very few who follow the insane radical teachings. I would agree that most do not strap bombs to themselves but most do not mind it happening as well.

I have never defended Christian violence and acts of hate and terror on this or any web site. We will just have to disagree on the motives of the average Christian and the average Muslim.

I would like to see an honest opinion of all who witnessed the mass outpouring of rejection of the Islamic Jehads by the world of Muslims after 9/11 that you recall. I did watch all news outlets I could, including a few Muslim broadcasts and just missed those mass demonstrations.

I did witness Muslims in this country, not only on braodcasts but in person on that day, jumping up and down and celebrating. In fact, several in and near Helena Arkansas operating two hotels and a couple of gas stations packed up and actually moved away that night and we never saw them again. I saw this. Your revisionist history can't change that. I had no hate for these people and, at the time, wondered why they had left so suddenly. I would not have persecuted them, despite their celebrations. I don't know if they thought the war or Allah had arrived or what.

It's just like the mass demonstrations you say are happening in Washington all the time with soldiers protesting the war like during Vietnam. I guess the right wing press, NYT, CBS, NBC et all are just ignoring them as usual.

I don't hate Muslims. I just don't trust the ones who won't commit to anything other than waiting to see who wins. If I did think they were all after us, I'd do something about that.

How can we comunicate when you are still harping about the Crusades? Gee, woman, that has been a few centuries you know. I'm not trying to go after the English because they raped Scotland, then Ireland a hundred years ago. You could at least drop the references to any activity no living person has perpetuated.

If it is not fashionable to hold the radical Islamics accountable for terror, you'll just have to forgive me and negoiate with them yourself. I don't think you have the chips to win that negoiation.

bamadog
11-05-2007, 05:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>

. Most Muslims are as horrified by the radical elements within their religion, as we are. And, they are angry by the war their beliefs are being bastardized by the radical elements which have interpreted it in ways which they feel are not the same philosophy to which they subscribe.
Gayle in Md.
Gayle in Md.

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

You may want to look at this, but only if you can stand a dose of truth.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/11/poll.pakistanis/

They are so horrified by Bin Laden, that he is the most popular man in the country.
Btw, Pakistan alone has a population of 170 million.

eg8r
11-05-2007, 07:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
they pray to her to intercede with her Son on their behalf <hr /></blockquote> I never really understood this. Why waste time praying to Mary? Why not just pray to Jesus?

eg8r

Gayle in MD
11-06-2007, 09:01 AM
If one of us is indulging in revisionist history, my friend, it is you. Just weeks ago, when Ahmadidejad visited this country, Sixty minutes re-aired the videos, of Iranians demonstrating in the streets of Iran, against al Qaeda, holding American flags, and holding candles. They offered assistance to our country, and we took advantage of it, when we went into Ahghanistan. So for you, and Wally, it wasn't a dream of mine, you missed it.

My view of radical Islamist Nihilists, is the very same as yous. There is only one way to deal with them, and that is to kill them before they kill us. That is precisely the reason why I am so angry at this administration for going into Iraq, to exploit oil, instead of focussing on bin Laden, the leader of radical Islamists, and destroying al Qaeda, the network of radical islamists Jihadists.

To speak about the religion of Islam, and lump it in with the jihadists, is rather dangerous, and also, talking about Jihadists, without recognizing that our economic practices, those of the West, of exploiting third world countries, without including them in the pie of global enterprise, and global materialism, is precisely what has grown these radical elements.

There are over a billion Muslims in the world. Are we going to kill all of them? The radical elements in their religion, have hi-jacked their religion, in the same intellectual way that Jerry Falwell, hi-jacked Christianity, after 9/11, when he blamed gays, women, and the ACLU.

What I am saying, about the crusades, for example, is about the negative results of divisionary organized religion, and its inherent desire to dictate. Every effort which seeks to abuse power, whether it is in the political field, or in the religious rhelm, is destructive for mankind. High intention, is a valuable goal, and the only method for winning this most dangerous war in which we find ourselves, but failing to acknowledge that our economic policies, did play a role in where we are now, is not truthful.

Jihadists, should be held somewhat in brackets, not lumped in with all other Muslims. Your guy Bush, is the one who keept using the word "Crusade" to describe Bush's war on terror, btw.

Americans, for example, are willing to sacrifice some of their freedoms, for a time, in order to track down these despots who seek to kill all of us, but they do not feel comfortable doing so with the buddies of people like Karl Rove, Dick Cheney, George Bush, and a thug like Gonzales running the show. Bush lost the American public, when we all realized that he lied us into this war. He is not a leader, he is a liar. This is the worst time in our history for a failed leadership, and a dishonest president, whose interests are first and foremost, to line the pockets of his oil friends, and it WAS his own focus on the corporate cronies, and their profits, which drew our country away from our real enemy, and it wasn't Saddam, or Iraq.

I believe as time goes on, and events not to our liking, occur, that will become much more clear to all, that Bush dropped the ball, and wasted the golden opportunity to enlist the whole world into a battle against these radical Jihadists. That he insulted other nations, that could have been our allies in this battle against Islamic Jihadists.

Our enemies, are fundamentalists, who seek the power to control. They are present in many organized religions, and the damage they do in the world, is obvious, however, the jihadists, are a whole different ball of wax, because traditional warfare is not the way to fight them, one nation, against another, because they are present in many nations, and because they use our own technology, our own industry, our own advances, as part of their arsenal of weaponry, against us.

There are many elements to how we got to this point, but there are also many people who reduce our opportunity to win this battle, when they attack others for working to grasp and understand all the elements involved in how we got here, and use their partisanship, against the interests of our battle.

Take Clinton, for example. He tried to get bin Laden, and he failed, but he was focused on al Qaeda, and getting bin Laden. Clarke has said that it was his number one priority. That he was completely obsessed by it, reading everything he could get his hands on, sending books to others in his administration, for them to read, making the effort to have a complete education of what we were up against. To say that he did nothing to fight radical fundamentalists, is a lie, plain and simple. He organized an entire government intelligence unit, precisely to fight al Qaeda. His attention was on our greatest threat, unlike Bush, who created false threats, which didn't exist,
and closed down the entire bin Laden, al Qaeda agency. During Clinton's administration, the country was not where it is now, and not until after 9/11, could any president have successfully launched an on-going military operation against these killers. The political support wasn't there, and Americans, were still living in the fog of apathy, and comfort. Bush had the opportunity to take advantage of a nation completely dedicated to killing these bastards off, and he totally blew it.

It just isn't possible to debate with people, who hold the view that we didn't bring any of this on ourselves, when for thirty years, we, and our European neighbors, failed to address the poverty, and unrest, the ethnic cleansing, and radical elements which were growing in other regions, and the lack of democratic safety around the world. We were consummers, first and foremost, without conscience, and compassion enough to fight against the elements which have grown into what we now face. Labeling people who understand this, as terrorist lovers, who want to give therapy to the Jihadists, for example, as the right wing radicals right here in our own country, like to do, is grossly unfair. Just as labeling all Muslims, as a part of, or responsible for, the Jihadist movement, is grossly unfair, and truly unrealistic. Not only that, but it is a dangerous point of view, that cannot be a part of winning this important war against radical Islam, and the jihadists who have hi-jacked the Muslim Religion.

I draw a comparison between fundamentalists, of any and all religions, as being always part of the problem with man killing man. History proves to us that that is so. Hence, I am repulsed by the Falwells of the world, also. Are they just as bad as the Jihadists, no, but they have the overall personality to do as much harm, if allowed to grow unchecked.

Fighting terrorism, by invading Iraq, was a lie, and a drastic mistake, and Bush played right into bin Laden's hands when he did so. bL doesn't have to organize an effort to shut down our economy, from across the ocean, if he can keep us spending and borrowing billions a month, and kill us right at his back door, as we continue to weaken our own economy, borrowing from communists as we go. bL is still out there, giving orders to other radicals, telling the Pakistanis to rise up against 'Your Government and defend Islam against Christianity' so please, tell me that isn't like the crusades. Tell me that Bush didn't use the word Crusade, over and over, until someone in the White House, apparently told him to stop. bin Laden highjacked Islam, and has turned it into a deeply anti modern, deeply anti democratic, deeply anti feminist, anti woman, crusade, to further his Nihilistic goals. Invading Iraq, has installed much more power into his cause, and weakened our own economic power, and idealistic reputation. To deny that fact, is an option, but not the truth. Just as lumping a global population of over a billion Muslims, as responsible for bin Laden's sick, arrogance, hatred and destruction, is not a truthful accessment of the reality at large. bin Laden, and his terrorists, seek obliteration. Bush's policy of lumping them in with another nation, or any other nation, does not serve the puspose of keeping their radical elements in brackets, as separate, and different, from any other, "anything." To win a war, the first step is to appropriately identify the enemy, and invading Iraq, for oil, was an illegitimate cause-wrapped together with a real terrorist threat from radical Islamists, who have their own separate agenda, quite separate from any other single nation. The forces of Jihad, are driven by parochial hatreds. Iraq, was not our immediate threat. The decision to weaken our efforts in Afghanistan, by invading Iraq, was the worst Policy decision of our lifetimes. We are seeing the results, now, in Pakistan, and yet we have Bush out there, rattling his saber over yet another false threat. There can be nothing more important than killing bin Laden, al Qaeda, and seeking out every training ground, every cell in our own country, and in other Nations. The only appropriate foreign policy with other Nations, is diplomacy, and even as we are bogged down in Iraq, the Neocons are STILL rattling their sabers, pushing for war with Iran. Complete idiocy! Nothing is worse for America, at this time, than a party full of fundelmentalist, radical neocons, whose only solution always involves more money for the Military Industrial Complex, Halliburton, Black Hawk, the Bush's, Baker's, Rice, and Cheney's, and all the other corporate fascist who have taken over this country. Follow the money. They are the war profiteerers. If you think they have assuaged the bitterness between us, and the rqadical Islamists, with such policies, then you haven't noticed the reversal in the progress that was going on in IRaq, before Bush started yapping and calling other nations part of the Axis of Evil. 9/11 had nothing to do with North Korea, Iraq, Iran, or any other nation. You can't win a war, unless you are fighting the right enemy. Increasing enemies, finding new ones, and losing sight of the real ones, is a total joke.

Gayle in Md.

bamadog
11-06-2007, 11:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>
our economic practices, those of the West, of exploiting third world countries, without including them in the pie of global enterprise, and global materialism, is precisely what has grown these radical elements.







Take Clinton, for example. He tried to get bin Laden, and he failed, but he was focused on al Qaeda, and getting bin Laden.

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

Jeez! You swallowed the whole Michael Moore blame America first cheezburger.

Try to get a lttle perspective.

"The Looming Tower", by Lawrence Wright just came out in paperback. It is the definitve work on Al Qaeda and the events leading up to 9/11.

Question: If Clinton was focused on getting Bin Laden, why didn't he just take him when he was offered by the Sudanese?