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Drop1
11-06-2007, 10:44 PM
web page (http://) http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/20/opinion/20bardenwerper.html?em&ex=1193025600&en=5f435706fd 2c35e0&ei=5087%0A web page (http://) This should make it a little easier.

bamadog
11-06-2007, 10:47 PM
As I pointed out to Gayle, this is an opinion piece.
Where are the numbers?

Gayle in MD
11-06-2007, 11:02 PM
Good article, and from a reliable author. I wonder, if we had enough people enlisting to fight this war, I suppose, we wouldn't be paying people like Blackwater, to fight in Iraq? And, I suppose, we wouldn't have to be bribing people to go over there and fight, either. And also, if things weren't so bad over there, our diplomatic force, wouldn't be holding protest meetings, after being told that they would HAVE to go, after nobody volunteered to go, and also, I suppose, contractors, could have rebuilt Iraq, by now, if they weren't being blown up all the time, and Iraqis, would probably have water, and electric, if there were enough peace, and boots on the ground, to make any real progress?

Also, I suppose, that if Americans hadn't been lied into this war, by Bush, and we were actually there for a good reason, other than fighting in an Iraqi civil war, Bush wouldn't be hiding all the coffins, and he could probably, even show his face somewhere in this country, without having to sweep protestors from view, before he arrived anywhere, and he would maybe, be able to risk throwing out the first ball of the baseball season, and he could even go places and answer qauestions, without first setting props, and cherry picking people for his backdrop.

In fact, if going into Iraq, had been the right thing to do, and for the right reasons, they probably wouldn't have had to lie about it in the first place, huh? Just like if Bush had been a worthy candidate for President, they wouldn't have had to use Katherine Harris, to pruge 20,000 blacks off the voting lists, and had he done a decent job, Blackwell, wouldn't have had to remove computers from all the black areas in Ohio in the 04 election, and Republican operatives, wouldn't be in jail for illegal telephone practices, used to jam the Democratic Phone Lines. Gee, if Republicans were honest people, we probably wouldn't be in the mess we're in right now, and 3846 american troops would still be alive, and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, too.

Gee, if we had listened to Jimmy Carter, we'd probably be free of foreign oil, and even fossil fuels, when he warned us that we must conserve, and reduced oil consumption by almost half, during his presidency.

And if Saddam had actually had WMD's the rest of the world wouldn't think that the United States Of America, can no longer be trusted.

Things could have been a lot different, huh?

Gayle in Md. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Drop1
11-06-2007, 11:15 PM
At least,it is not three years old,cold facts coming your way,that is if you accept data from the Military. How bout LWW trying to push me as author of his filth? What a pig.

Gayle in MD
11-07-2007, 09:12 AM
In WWII, we didn't have to give people bonuses, to go into battle, but then, that war wasn't a war for profit. That wasn't a war they were lied into. That wasn't a civil war, between other people, were no threat to the U.S./ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

LWW
11-07-2007, 10:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> In WWII, we didn't have to give people bonuses, to go into battle, but then, that war wasn't a war for profit. That wasn't a war they were lied into. That wasn't a civil war, between other people, were no threat to the U.S./ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif<hr /></blockquote>
Gayle is exposed as believeing the lies which came from the FDR administration.

Their lies and crimes include:

-Ignoring the fact that there has never been any evidence linking Hitler to 12/7 and Pearl Harbor.

-Pursuing a war in Europe before finishing the war with Japan.

-Ignoring the warnings of an iimminent Japanese attack.

-Granting no bid contracts to GM, Ford, Chrysler, Colt, Remington, and many many more.

-Rationing food and fuel at home.

-Awarding entire factories to private industry that had been paid for with tax revenue.

-Deceiving the American people with sanitized news from the front and the nation's largest propaganda campaign at home.

-Promoted racial hatred by using propaganda to show the Japanese as an uneducated subhuman bucktoothed and nearly blind race.

-Showed a preference for Nazi sympathizers by not cracking down on the Hitler supporting German-American Bund.

-Running up enormous deficits.

-Ignoring the warnings of Billy Mitchell that the Pacific fleet was vulnerable to air attack.

-Authorizing the bombing of civilian population centers.

-Incarcerating thousands of US citizens without cause.

-Holding Germans in the USA without legal representation and bringing them before a military tribunal.

-Spying on Americans at home and abroad.

-Allowing US and Allied troop and materiel ships to be sunk when ENIGMA codes had been broken, all to maintain "NATIONAL SECRETS".

Now, can you see how foolish these rants look when you apply them to another set of very similar circumstances.

LWW

bamadog
11-07-2007, 10:09 AM
So you admit that Bobby, LAMas, and Myself were right on the issue of re-enlistments?

SKennedy
11-07-2007, 10:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> I suppose, we wouldn't be paying people like Blackwater, to fight in Iraq?
Gayle in Md. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Blackwater and similar groups have zilch to do with recruitment. They serve a purpose that is independent of recruiting numbers and regular army activities. I suggest you check witgh some of your actual war veteran officer friends who are actually familiar with combat and ask them about the roles of such a group as Blackwater.

Bobbyrx
11-07-2007, 10:31 AM
linked from your own op/ed piece: web page (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/11/us/11recruit.html?fta=y)

Drop1
11-07-2007, 10:39 AM
Not at all. Does what the man has to say mean nothing to you? Does LWW trying to put my name on his post mean nothing to you? In any case neither of you have any credibility? Shall I go over the LWW post with you again? He really is pathetic. You are a waste of time. Quote LWW,"what are we?"

Drop1
11-07-2007, 10:43 AM
As always you have nothing to say. You don't like what the man says,so what.

Gayle in MD
11-07-2007, 11:00 AM
I know all about the role of Blackwater. They are paid to do the same things that our own soldiers did in WWII, and Vietnam. They are also part of the neocon cabal of corporate fascists pigs that are making all the money off this completely un-necessary war, the same corporate fascists that finance the American Enterprise Institute, and with connections to the Christian Coalition.

The truth about this lie of all lies, invading Iraq, will not be told until there are real investigations of the Carlyle Group. This was the group that was holding their meeting in Washington, D.C. on September 11. George Bush Sr. was there the night before. The bin Laden representative was there, the brother of Osama bin Laden, because they were main funders of the Carlyle Group, together with the other former government officials, like Jim Baker.



And so together they learned about September 11. As they all said together, Bush had flown out that morning. But to investigate the Carlyle Group and all its subsidiaries and the connection to the Bush family, the link between the Bush family and the Saudi regime. There is a certainly a nexus there at the Carlyle Group. And most importantly, to understand that since September 11, there has been so much suffering, of course, on the part of families and just communities, what happened on September 11. Three thousand people incinerated in a moment, but there are some who have profited handsomely. Among them the Carlyle Group, one of the major weapons manufacturers now. They have profited handsomely from what has taken place, and certainly with the invasion of Iraq, all of these corporations that have made a killing off the killing.

When people lie, they're hiding things, and this war is, and was, all bout Corporate Fascists, and their own bank accounts. Why do you think they didn't give a damn about what went wrong over there, right from the start. Why do you think that this entire thrust for invading Iraq, came out of the American Enterprise Institute? Blackwater, is just another corporation insider, with ties to the Christian Coalition, and contributions to the Bush administration, and the big guys, Bush, Jr. and Sr. Cheney, and Baker, all in bed with the Arabs, and have been for decades. Bush Jr. was once on the board of directors, in the Carlyle Group. I guess you think it's just a coincidence that their profits are through the roof? Just a coincidence that they are all racking up the billions faster than anyone can keep track. I guess you think they want to get our soldiers out of there, when they are all getting filthy rich off this war? And that cheney's huge retirement pay off, blood money, as I call it, had nothing to do with the huge profits being made right now by Halliburton/Carlyle/Blackwater and every other corporate fascist that contributed to the AMerican Enterprise Institute, the think tank that pushed for this invasion from the atart.

When you see Bush kissing the Arab Princes, and holding their hands, you watching American fascism at it's worst.

Pahleeeze!

Follow the money. OUr kids are dying to make Bush and his cronies, filthier rich than they already were. End of Story.

LWW
11-07-2007, 11:00 AM
Not that you actually know, but what exactly are you trying to lie about now?

LWW

Bobbyrx
11-07-2007, 11:02 AM
Where can you find that I said I had a problem with what he said? That's his view and he is entitled to it. His article (that you posted) had a link on it saying that enlistment goals were met in July. Given what he says is true, I'm trying to find out why people aren't running from the military in droves. When have I smarted off to you?

Chopstick
11-07-2007, 12:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> In WWII, we didn't have to give people bonuses, to go into battle, but then, that war wasn't a war for profit. That wasn't a war they were lied into. That wasn't a civil war, between other people, were no threat to the U.S./ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

These bonuses you speak of have been around at least 30 years. They were there when I was in. They are called veterans benefits. Are you proposing we cut them?

You just shouldn't be saying we are bribing our brave young men and women into serving our country. There are better ways to make your point.

bamadog
11-07-2007, 12:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Drop1:</font><hr> Not at all. Does what the man has to say mean nothing to you? Does LWW trying to put my name on his post mean nothing to you? In any case neither of you have any credibility? Shall I go over the LWW post with you again? He really is pathetic. You are a waste of time. Quote LWW,"what are we?" <hr /></blockquote>

Now you are just lashing out.
We were not talking about LWW.
We were talking about "re-enlistment rates". And you and Gayle were wrong.
Now be man enough to admit it.

Drop1
11-07-2007, 01:08 PM
Quote LWW,"what are we?" Control freaks,would be a start. Get help my friend,get help.

Drop1
11-07-2007, 01:18 PM
Questions too hard for you,or do you just lack the integrity to answer. Quote LWW "what are we?"

bamadog
11-07-2007, 01:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Drop1:</font><hr> Questions too hard for you,or do you just lack the integrity to answer. Quote LWW "what are we?" <hr /></blockquote>

Again,
What has this got to do with re-enlistment rates?

If you have an issue with LWW, take it up with him.

SKennedy
11-07-2007, 02:34 PM
Gayle...what's with all the diatribe?
Blackwater and similar mercenary groups are there to help "level the playing fields." They are not bound by conventional means and do not have to abide by the standard "rules of engagement." You can argue about the need for groups like this, but they are a real necessity (in my opinion), especially when an enemy knows you are hamstrung by policies, etc. War is ugly! Which is a good thing otherwise we'd have even more of it.
Oh, mercenaries have been around for eons and have been used by the US in numerous past wars...democratic and republican Presidents alike. They are a necessary "evil."
Again, my only point was having mercenaries and using them has nothing to do with recruitment figures. And your other tangential thoughts about conservatives, neo-cons and christians are completely irrelevant. If all that rambling nonsense is for me...save it, if it is to convince you that what you are saying is true....then by all means carry on, and if it is to influence and persuade others on here...carry on. (I know you wanted my blessing)

Qtec
11-07-2007, 09:01 PM
Whatever way you look at it Blackwater personnel are mercenaries- paid by the US Govt. Its a scam in two ways. Funelling huge amounts of cash to political supporters and keeping the body count down. [ they are NOT included in the casualty total.]

[ QUOTE ]
Over 15,000 military "contractors" are now stationed in Iraq, working for dozens of companies--a force larger than the British contingent in the war zone. There is reportedly one mercenary in place for every 10 occupation soldiers. "Private" military firms and contractors operate mess halls, guard bases, serve as bodyguards, train soldiers, and maintain key weapons systems. The New York Times reported that "contractors" are now starting to deploy their own fleets of armored cars.

Such "contract" soldiers have had a free hand in threatening and killing Iraqi people. A former Special Forces member documented ( Washington Times , October 6, 2003) that military contractors guarding ministries on behalf of coalition authorities repeatedly killed Iraqis--without punishment or inquiry.

From the point of view of the Pentagon and CIA, there are several clear advantages to privatizing their more controversial operations.

The U.S. government does not count mercenaries as their soldiers, and it does not count dead mercenaries as military casualties. In other words, using mercenaries means the Pentagon can downplay the size of its involvement. <hr /></blockquote>

If the US Army is the best of the best, why are BWR people training THEM [ at great cost to the US taxpayer] when the BWR people were actually trained by the US Army in the first place?
eg, an intern does 4 years training in a hospital and eventually becomes a fully fledged Doctor. He leaves, signs with a private practice and the Hospital hires him at 10 times what they just paid him to tell THEM how they should do their jobs!!!!!!!!!!



[ QUOTE ]
For example, the company won a five-year Navy contract in 2002 worth $35.7 million to train Navy personnel in "force protection, shipboard security, search-and-seizure techniques, and armed sentry duties." <hr /></blockquote>

WTF??????????

These Cowboys with a licence to kill have caused a lot of bad feeling in Iraq towards the GIs trying to do the best they can.
If you watch this video, ..............just watch the video.
web page (http://derkurier.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/aegis-cowboys-shooting-up-baghdad/)

Q.....BTW, BWR personnel were on the streets- armed to the teeth- after Katrina. Is that allowed?

wolfdancer
11-07-2007, 11:02 PM
BWR, coming to a local neighborhood, near you!!

bamadog
11-07-2007, 11:09 PM
If the video is what it seems to be, it is reprehensible and the perpetrators need to be punished.

But, why is it you never seem to have outrage for what the Jihadis and Insurgents do which is FAR, FAR WORSE?

You are not an American and yet you delight in putting our country down and portraying it the most negative way.

Can you name a country which is a greater force for good in the world than the USA?

Your shtick is getting old. Why don't you join the Dutch army and see if YOU can do some good.

nAz
11-07-2007, 11:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> Gayle...what's with all the diatribe?
Blackwater and similar mercenary groups are there to help "level the playing fields." They are not bound by conventional means and do not have to abide by the standard "rules of engagement." You can argue about the need for groups like this, but they are a real necessity (in my opinion), especially when an enemy knows you are hamstrung by policies, etc. War is ugly! Which is a good thing otherwise we'd have even more of it.
Oh, mercenaries have been around for eons and have been used by the US in numerous past wars...democratic and republican Presidents alike. They are a necessary "evil."
Again, my only point was having mercenaries and using them has nothing to do with recruitment figures. And your other tangential thoughts about conservatives, neo-cons and christians are completely irrelevant. If all that rambling nonsense is for me...save it, if it is to convince you that what you are saying is true....then by all means carry on, and if it is to influence and persuade others on here...carry on. (I know you wanted my blessing) <hr /></blockquote>


hey there SKennedy

I believe the problem with having them there is they cause more problems for the military soldiers on the ground and America in general. think about it they go around getting into fire fights and end up killing a lot of innocents people. granted not all of them are doing this and not all of the ones getting killed are innocent civilians. but enough of them are that people over there start seeing the US military (America) as the ones doing this. it gets to the point that they can't tell who the good guys are from the bad ones. kinda like the insurgents huh? that puts the regular solider in a fu@ked up position.

Besides all that can you imagine how pissed off the regular solider is when he learns that these clowns are probably making five times more money then they are and can pretty much go home when ever they want?

LWW
11-08-2007, 05:33 AM
So, there exists a video which has been at least altered to splice in audio and it contains some sounds that don't really sound like a milspec weapons and it's of British soldiers and it's been shot from more than 1 vehicle as it's obviouisly at least 2 different back windows ... so who does a Dutch troll blame?

Bush of course.

Dude, you are as offbase and dishonest as always.

LWW

Gayle in MD
11-08-2007, 07:39 AM
I suppose we fought that war by forcing the National guardsmen into eighteen month re-deployments?

No other war, or re-enlistment programs, can be compared with this one. Most presidents have enough sense to bild forces, and prepare in advance for combat. No soldiers in battle have been re-deployed, without proper rest, training and equipment, and beyond the regulated standards, to occupy a country, for regime change, when that country was not actively threatening us, or one of our allies. Occupying another country, for the purpose of regime change, is forbidden in the Geneva conventions. doing so in order to force our style of government on others, is not legal. We have never fought a war where private corporations comprised a number of troops equal to ours.

To say that re-enlistment rates are up, when people are forced to remain, after their time is up, is a joke. The Army Generals have stated that Bush is breaking our army. Launching a war, and changing the mission, over and over, is not something that we do. Tell me, do you deny that this administration knowingly lied to Americans, and the rest of the world, about connections to al Qaeda, and WMD? Do you deny that Halliburton, and the Carlyle Group, are making a fortune in Iraq? Do you deny, that both Bush and Cheney, Bush's father, (and Jim Baker) have decades old connections with bin Laden's family, and both Halliburton, and the Carlyle Group? Also, when were no-bid contracts used in war?


[ QUOTE ]

The Army reportedly has a shortage of 3,000 captains and majors this year, and recently began offering them bonuses of up to $35,000 if they'd agree to remain on duty for an additional three years. The shortage was forecast to rise to 6,000 by 2010 as the Army tries to grow by 65,000.
Even with the offer of the cash bonus or free graduate school or their choice of assignments, the exodus of young officers continues to grow at a pace that worries commanders. The U.S. Military Academy at West Point was founded to educate career officers for the Army, and upon graduation each officer owes Uncle Sam five years on active duty. The hope is that most will remain for a full career, and historically just 28.8 percent have opted out after five years.
A total of 35 percent of the West Point Class of 2000 left the Army in 2005; 46 percent of the Class of 2001 left in 2006, and a staggering 58 percent of the Class of 2002 left active duty when their obligation expired this year.
Those figures are mirrored among officers who are commissioned through university ROTC programs, with attrition rates now at a 30-year high. The Army Reserve reports that the situation is even worse for critical ranks and specialties: The Reserve has only 58 percent of the sergeants first class it needs, 53 percent of the needed captains and 74 percent of needed majors.
<hr /></blockquote>
Gayle in Md.

DickLeonard
11-08-2007, 08:02 AM
LWW Wolfdancer knew there was a Writers Strike coming and was warming up his One Liners. That was his one liner that got him the Job. Bowing to your Superior Intellect, the only thing was he turned his back on you.####

Gayle in MD
11-08-2007, 08:10 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Gayle...what's with all the diatribe? <font color="red">Define diatribe. Is that term reserved for people with a point of view differents from yours, or just for people of the opposite gender? </font color>
Blackwater and similar mercenary groups are there to help "level the playing fields." They are not bound by conventional means and do not have to abide by the standard "rules of engagement." <font color="red">Precisely why they have caused so much backlash against our troops, who end up paying for their violent actions against innocent Iraqis. They comprise half of the armed boots on the ground, and have exacerbated Iraqi outrage against our enlisted people. </font color> You can argue about the need for groups like this, but they are a real necessity (in my opinion), especially when an enemy knows you are hamstrung by policies, etc. <font color="red">Hamstrung by policies, huh? Another way of saying getting around the combat rules and regulations. A great plan for winning hearts and minds? I don't think so. </font color> War is ugly! Which is a good thing otherwise we'd have even more of it. <font color="red"> That fact seems to have no effect on the kinds of leaders who rush into war, with no personal combat experience of their own, or stand to line the pockets of their cronies as a result. Here wwe have a President, and Vice president, with connections to the no bid contract corporations that are making money off this war, and with the oil corporations that are cutting contracts for Iraqi oil, and doing so in a way that avoids holding Blackwater to accountability, financially and otherwise. They've made over a billion dollars, and were contributors to the Bush Campaign. </font color>
Oh, mercenaries have been around for eons and have been used by the US in numerous past wars...democratic and republican Presidents alike. <font color="red">Numerous? when did they comprise half our forces? </font color> They are a necessary "evil." <font color="red">Yes, that's the stardard answer for everything Bush does, isn't it? Kindo of a stretch, isn't it, when there was no threat, no WMD, no connection to al Qaeda, and they cherry picked the intelligence, threw out the inspectors, didn't get U.N. approval, and lied for three years about the "Progress" on the ground. I don't think this occupation resembles anything we've seen before, including the ratio between mercenaries, and soldiers. We've never fought a war of choice, with no bid contracts, using private corporations for half our forces. </font color>
Again, my only point was having mercenaries and using them has nothing to do with recruitment figures. And your other tangential thoughts about conservatives, neo-cons and christians are completely irrelevant. If all that rambling nonsense is for me...save it, if it is to convince you that what you are saying is true....then by all means carry on, and if it is to influence and persuade others on here...carry on. (I know you wanted my blessing) <font color="red">Ah yes, the sheep are well appointed with standard right wing semantics, at the ready, to combat dissenting opinions. Here's a flash for you, I don't post for your blessing. In fact, although I'm sure your a great guy, your opinions about global warming haven't really encouraged my respect for your opinions, so pleasing you, isn't really on my agenda. Tell me, Do you think Bush and Cheney lied about the reasons for invading Iraq, cherry picked the Intelligence, expanded the bad, and deleted the intel that didn't support their agenda? Why do you think they lied? And, if you don't think they lied, we don't have much space between us for debate, do we? That provides us with two subjects for which mutual debate is rather pointless, since I fully believe that human activity contributes to global warming.

To say that enlistments are up, is a false statement. To say that we've had four years of "Making Progess" in Iraq, is a lie. To suggest that people believe in this war, is a lie, also, since the majority of people in this country, say that it was a mistake, and many foreign affairs experts, say that it is the worst foreign policy in our history. To say that Bush, isn't a liar, or that his cronies aren't making a fortune off this war, is a joke! Those are my educated opinions, but you may call then a diatribe, if it makes you fee4l like a big man. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Gayle in Md. </font color>


<hr /></blockquote>

LWW
11-08-2007, 08:12 AM
So, did you buy or lease your bridge?

LWW

eg8r
11-08-2007, 08:12 AM
[ QUOTE ]
think about it they go around getting into fire fights and end up killing a lot of innocents people. granted not all of them are doing this and not all of the ones getting killed are innocent civilians. but enough of them are that people over there start seeing the US military (America) as the ones doing this. <hr /></blockquote> Hey naz, this is a great explanation. It is rare to see a lefty be this clear. If you read qtip's post you would be led to believe that ALL BW guys are out shooting up innocents left and right. This is not true, and you are probably the first lefty on this board to acknowledge it.

There are bad apples in every bucket, I think the best path forward is to continue tossing out the bad apples as you find them, instead of just throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[ QUOTE ]
Besides all that can you imagine how pissed off the regular solider is when he learns that these clowns are probably making five times more money then they are <hr /></blockquote> The only soldier that does not know this are the ones that just got out of high school and enlisted. Either way (they know it or not) they still would not be eligble to work for BW anyways. It is common sense that the private sector makes much more money than the federal sector.

eg8r

Gayle in MD
11-08-2007, 09:01 AM
$20,000.00 to re-enlist? What do you call it? Eighteen month forced deployments? Is this your version of patirotic enlistment, volunteering?

Pahleeeze!

Gayle in MD
11-08-2007, 09:17 AM
Thank you Q. I find you to be more of an American patriot, than these right wing sheep, any day of the week!

Patriotism begins with honesty and truth. They have no use for either. We need more people like you, here in our country.

Gayle in Md.

DickLeonard
11-08-2007, 09:21 AM
LWW I owna da Bwooklyn Bwidge but its fore saila to people witha Supera Inalect. You seem to qualify for dat laon.####

Gayle in MD
11-08-2007, 09:29 AM
Good post, Naz. Thanks. When the President of Blackwater testified, this scam was evident, and the Republicans, as usual, were repulsive. This organization has done more to hurt our troops, than anything else. A total disgrace. I'll bet there isn't a single person here, from the right, who watched the testimony. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I wish people would get it, that the ONLY way to stay abreast of this government, these days, is by watching it live. Blackwater is one scary organization, without conscience. That makes them a hero of the right.

SKennedy
11-08-2007, 05:14 PM
Again, my post was not meant to justify the existence or countenance groups like BWR. I just said they had nothing to do with recruiting numbers like Gayle advocated. I'm just explaining their exostence in general, and not to specific wars or actions in which they are or were employed. I served active duty and have never worked as a mercenary. I'd rather make love..not war...even if I am a Republican. I never received training from a civilian while in the service. However, I do know that there are specialized services that are taught through civilian contractors for the same reasons mercenaries are used in war. If we didn't have war, and if we didn't have people trying to kill or harm us, then none of this stuff would be an issue. But it is....and the bottom line is that we all want to be safe. I don't really care if that safety comes from a mixture of active regular military and mercenary specialists. Relative to providing cash to supporters....again it's just like war...not a good thing but is here none the less.

As for Katrina? Someone had to have hired them, which may answer your question as to legalities. I don't know the answer.

Democrat or Republican....liberal or conservative, we all get sick and tired of the perversions. Aren't things bad enough without them too? So, what do we do about it other than complain? Not much...we keep re-electing the same old corrupt guys we've been loyal to all along (on both sides of the aisle) and look the other way when convenient. When are we going to start electing honest people with character instead of those who look and talk "presidential?" Probably never. So, in the end I guess we really get what we deserve. Don't we want funding for our local pork-barrel pet projects also? Don't we want a piece of the pie as well? Even if it is a little rotten and sour? Maybe we can get Deeman to run for the presidency? We could start our own grass-roots movement.....but more than likely the only movement any of us will have is the one we have in the bathroom.

SKennedy
11-08-2007, 05:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> ....this scam was evident, and the Republicans, as usual, were repulsive. Blackwater is one scary organization, without conscience. That makes them a hero of the right. <hr /></blockquote>

Gayle is there anyone other than you and your close network of like-minded friends that you do not lump together and bash! Your stereotypical vitriolic comments are the most politically incorrect crap I've ever read. If you were making these comments about groups other than southerners, christians, conservatives, or Republicans, you'd be branded a hate-mongering idiot. As it is, you'll likely be presented an award or medal by move-on.org for your message of tolerance and peace.

Gayle in MD
11-09-2007, 02:06 PM
Yeah, well I got tired of trying to reason with the likes of the right wing digbats, long ago, and it is precisely their lack of appreciation for tolerance and peace that got makes my blood boil. And when it comes to a President, and a party, that lied to send our people to die in Iraq, and a President who doesn't bother even thinking about a POS that blew up buildings, and killed Americans, and a party, and their organizations and followers who defend such actions, and attack all patriots who speak out against such unamerican activities, I really don't give a good **** what you, or anyone else says, or thinks about it, or about me. Political correctness isn't my goal, and unfortunately, IMO, the damned bible belt played a huge role in everything that's happened, hence, they are my targets, too. In fact, all the fundalmentalists both here and abroad, that threaten world peace, and American Ideals, my Constitution, and my rights, and the fascists that are destroying my country, need to be exposed for the threat that they are.

That's the great thing about America, you get to Bash me, and I get to bash the fascists and the fundalmentalists, and religious nuts, who think that the people who were vapored out of existence on 9/11, deserved what they got, or enjoyed seeing their husbands get snuffed out of this world.

I am angry, and I plan to stay that way, until this country, and these troops, are safe and free from the control of Republican Fascist PIGS, and the threat of radical fundalmentalism to America, and tis constitution.

"What's the definition of apathy? I don't know, and I don't care."

SKennedy
11-09-2007, 02:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Political correctness isn't my goal, ....... who think that the people who were vapored out of existence on 9/11, deserved what they got, or enjoyed seeing their husbands get snuffed out of this world.......I am angry <hr /></blockquote>

PC should not be anyone's goal. It certainly is not mine!
Also, I never stated and would never agree with the statement that the victims of 9/11 deserved what they got. I have heard that statement made by some Muslims.
And, we can all tell you are angry. That is evident by your posts. I can understand your anger (some of it). I just think much of it is displaced. You remind me of a one-woman mob or someone who wants to incite a riot? You keep attributing actions, results, and ideologies to religious conservatives that are not true in most cases. Sure there are exceptions, but they are on the extreme. Extremes are not good. You are an extremist, or at least that is the way you appear in your posts. Extremists are dangerous, whether they are on the right or left! I don't think you are as nearly as extreme as you let on.

It's Friday afternoon. Wind down, relax, and have a good weekend.

Gayle in MD
11-09-2007, 03:45 PM
I'm surely no extremist. I wouldn't hurt a fly, nor do I wish destruction to anyone, just that they pay for their crimes, through our own legal system.

I think it's rather foolish of you to assume that I would allow my anger at this administration to permeate my life, rule out my happiness, or disadvantage me in any way. I'm prbably one of the happiest people you'll ever, never know, lol.

Contrary to your assumptions, people like me, Lou Dobbs, Helen Thomas, John Murtha, Bill Maher, John Dean, Gordon Smith, Jim Welch, Richard Clarke, Gary Brentsen, Tyler Drumheller, Wolfdancer, Hondo, Leonard XXX, Moblsv, gee, the list does go on and on, 75% of us, who are angry at Bush, think our country is being taken over by corporate fascists, people of all intellects, and walks of life, we're angry, and it's appropriate.

If it pleasures you to seek to frame me in some radical ideology, that doesn't fit, have at it. I'd advise you, however, not to expect any changes in my posts. Of course, you have the option not to read them, just as I scroll past most of the radical rightwing nuts, and totally ignore their posts, once I realize they are posting solely to get a rise from me. I truly don't post my thoughts to irritate anyone, but they are what they are, and I stand by my convictions unless they prove to be false. So far, they have not proven so, and further, I have come to realize that there are many people in our country, far more educated than I, and far closer to the inner workings of my government, who share the same opinions, concerns, and fear for the future of our country, and over the dangerous consequences of the on-going saber rattling coming out of this incompetent administration, and it's Republican economic results. Those of you who don't agree with my points of view, and to whom I continue to answer, wouldn't get any responses if I had no respect at all for your opinions. I don't respond at all to people once they have shown themselves only interested in insuting me, personally, nor do I continue to read what they post.

I agree that extremists are dangerous, and that is exactly what I write about here. The difference is in who each of us sees as the extremists. Fascism is a dangerous phenomena, and the beginning of it is too few people, with too much money and power, usually in concert with religious fundalmentalists, who are all only out for themselves. As I stated, a widening gap between the social economic levels of the poor including the Middle Class, and the filthy rich, meaning those who are exploiting the rest, without conscience, is the beginning of fascism. It comes in many ways, the involvement of propagandists, equally at play for money and power, and willing to spread lies for the payoff. These corporate pigs, are assaulting our country in many ways, like not caring about poison in children's toys, oor pollutants in our environment, or whether or not a president tells the truth about the need to send our people into battle, or tells the truth about the results, afterwards, about the battle, or whether his family, or his closest business associates of old, are actually making a killing off the whole enterprise, as others sacrifice their loved ones for a false cause.

I find it incredible, that you, and others here, chose to completely ignore that fact that the people who are making all the money off the blood which is now flowing in the Middle East, are in bed with this administration, which has also been in bed with the supporters of those radicals in their own countries, who are killing our troops. That that fact doesn't seem to dawn on any of you, or explain their unprecedented actions of lying, lies from those who had to create false reasons for infading a country, on behalf of a non existent cause for pre-emptive war. I've seen the results, weekly, I can tell you, the results, are the cause for my anger, and my repulsion for George Bush, the Republican Party, and those who continue to blindly support their failed, costly and dangerous policies.

Although you never specifically address my points, nor answer my questions, if you find it fulfilling to continue to suggest that I am some radical extremist, who is full of hatred and miserably prodding through an unrewarding life, I hope, for your sake, that will suffice, and assuage your own obvious anger over my opinions. I have some very close friends here on this site, and none of them would describe me as the, shall we say, unstable and miserable personality you suggest.


I'd much prefer that my comments might just hit enough of a nerve that you would investigate some of the reading material, or statistice, or government findings, to which I refer, and use for my own studies. None of them are considered to be radical sources, I assure you, and then there is the on-going stories, the stories of lives, American lives, in person, which I am privy to through my own active involvment in the heartbreaking results of Bush's lies.

My anger, is quite appropriate. Where is YOURS?

Gayle in Md.

bamadog
11-09-2007, 03:49 PM
Tyler Drumheller is a Traitor and a Liar. How appropriate that you name him as one of your sources.

Bobbyrx
11-09-2007, 07:34 PM
Contrary to your assumptions, people like me, Lou Dobbs, Helen Thomas, John Murtha, Bill Maher, John Dean, Gordon Smith, Jim Welch, Richard Clarke, Gary Brentsen, Tyler Drumheller, Wolfdancer, Hondo, Leonard XXX, Moblsv, gee, <font color="red">Bobbyrx</font color> the list does go on and on, 75% of us, who are angry at Bush, <font color="red">but you lose me here </font color> think our country is being taken over by corporate fascists, people of all intellects, and walks of life, we're angry, and it's appropriate. <font color="red"> It is appropriate, but a large part of that 75% are angry over spending too much and immigration and his Medicare Part D rx plan is crazy....None of the polls say that 75% of the country believe he lied us into a war for oil and that he's a treasonist war monger out to destroy the constitution and is willing to kill thousands just to make his already rich buddies richer. Most people, I don't think hate his guts and want him shot for treason, they just think he's done a crummy job at leading the country </font color>

SKennedy
11-09-2007, 10:00 PM
Now that is a good post! I am glad to know that you are not a miserable person and I certainly believe your honesty. And although we may disagree on many issues, I still respect your opinion. I certainly would never mean you any harm in any manner and only wish you continued success and happiness. Yes, I do get angry about politics as usual, which I have tried to communicate on here. And, I know you respect my opinions or you would not respond. But, most of all I want you to believe me when I say that not all southern, christian, republicans are "extremists." Yoy might actually like some of us.....for example....I can tell we all have great respect for Deeman on here. It is obvious he lives in the south, is relatively conservative, and he gives the impression of being a christian. He is not an extremist. He is reasonable and rational, etc., etc. I think most of us are, including democrats, non-christians, and those more "liberal." Another one on here I respect is Wolfdancer...and of course there are others. Bottom line...I'm sure I would enjoy playing pool with any of you....
Rest assured I would defend your right to speak your opinions.

cushioncrawler
11-10-2007, 01:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> ..... 75% of us, who are angry at Bush, think our country is being taken over by corporate fascists, people of all intellects, and walks of life, we're angry, and it's appropriate.... the filthy rich, meaning those who are exploiting the rest, without conscience, is the beginning of fascism..... These corporate pigs, are assaulting our country in many ways, like not caring about poison in children's toys, oor pollutants in our environment, or whether or not a president tells the truth.... I find it incredible, that you, and others here, chose to completely ignore that fact that the people who are making all the money off the blood which is now flowing in the Middle East, are in bed with this administration....<hr /></blockquote>Gayle -- U have rose-colored glasses. The truth iz much worse than u say. The USA iznt being taken over by corporate fascists, they have allwayz been at the helm, allwayz will. Its like this, when the USA haz a depression, the pigs make lots of money. When the stock market goze down, the pigs make lots of money. When the dollar goze down, the pigs make lots of money. Kood say more. madMac.

LWW
11-10-2007, 04:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> Its like this, when the USA haz a depression, the pigs make lots of money. When the stock market goze down, the pigs make lots of money. When the dollar goze down, the pigs make lots of money. Kood say more. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>
Please explain exactly who these pigs are, how they do it, and why you don't follow their lead and become a billionaire?

Perhaps we can make this into an infomercial?

LWW

nAz
11-10-2007, 01:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
think about it they go around getting into fire fights and end up killing a lot of innocents people. granted not all of them are doing this and not all of the ones getting killed are innocent civilians. but enough of them are that people over there start seeing the US military (America) as the ones doing this. <hr /></blockquote> Hey naz, this is a great explanation. It is rare to see a lefty be this clear. If you read qtip's post you would be led to believe that ALL BW guys are out shooting up innocents left and right. This is not true, and you are probably the first lefty on this board to acknowledge it.

There are bad apples in every bucket, I think the best path forward is to continue tossing out the bad apples as you find them, instead of just throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Besides all that can you imagine how pissed off the regular solider is when he learns that these clowns are probably making five times more money then they are <hr /></blockquote> The only soldier that does not know this are the ones that just got out of high school and enlisted. Either way (they know it or not) they still would not be eligble to work for BW anyways. It is common sense that the private sector makes much more money than the federal sector.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

I believe the problem with having them there is they cause more problems for the military soldiers on the ground and America in general. think about it they go around getting into fire fights and end up killing a lot of innocents people. granted not all of them are doing this and not all of the ones getting killed are innocent civilians. but enough of them are that people over there start seeing the US military (America) as the ones doing this. it gets to the point that they can't tell who the good guys are from the bad ones. kinda like the insurgents huh? that puts the regular solider in a fu@ked up position.

Besides all that can you imagine how pissed off the regular solider is when he learns that these clowns are probably making five times more money then they are and can pretty much go home when ever they want?


Ed too bad it all falls on deaf ears...

LAMas
11-10-2007, 02:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> In WWII, we didn't have to give people bonuses, to go into battle, but then, that war wasn't a war for profit. That wasn't a war they were lied into. That wasn't a civil war, between other people, were no threat to the U.S./ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

These bonuses you speak of have been around at least 30 years. They were there when I was in. They are called veterans benefits. Are you proposing we cut them?

You just shouldn't be saying we are bribing our brave young men and women into serving our country. There are better ways to make your point. <hr /></blockquote>

The Black Marines are inlisting.

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/11/marine_recruiting_diversity_071103/

Black recruits up 49 percent in fiscal 2007

By John Hoellwarth - Staff writer
Posted : Sunday Nov 4, 2007 9:29:52 EST

An increase in the number of black recruits shipped to boot camp in fiscal ‘07 reversed a seven-year slide in minority recruiting, though some predict hitting high numbers this year is going to get harder.

That’s because black communities are most likely to disapprove of the war in Iraq, and black families are more likely to resist sending their children into the service right now, according to a recently released Center for Naval Analyses report on the Corps’ minority recruiting efforts. The report recommends that the Marine Corps take steps to raise its profile in the black community, perhaps with an ad campaign outlining the successes of black Marines. Nearly 11 percent of fiscal 2007 recruits — 4,440 in all — were black, a 49 percent increase over the 2,980 contracted in fiscal 2006, which marked a low point for black recruiting in recent years, said Maj. Wes Hayes, a spokesman for Marine Corps Recruiting Command.

Mike Styka, deputy head of the Corps’ enlisted recruiting current operations, attributed the increase in black recruiting to a corresponding increase in the number of recruiters on the street.

In 2005 and 2006, the Corps was losing recruiters to reassignment or discharge faster than replacements could be sent to recruiter school, “so we had a lot of sectors that weren’t being covered,” Styka said.

By adding 400 more recruiters during fiscal 2007 to help meet the Corps’ goal of growing the active-duty ranks by 22,000 Marines by 2011, “we just had the ability to go everywhere,” he said.

Corps officials plan to add another 200 recruiters to America’s high schools and strip malls during the current fiscal year, as MCRC tries to increase black recruiting from 10.9 percent of all applicants to 13 percent. That would match nationwide demographics, according to Census Bureau data published in 2006.

Commandant Gen. James Conway wants diversity in the Marine Corps to mirror diversity in America, said his spokesman, Lt. Col. T.V. Johnson. The proportion of Marine personnel who are white, Hispanic, American Indian, Pacific Islander or other already closely resembles the respective population of each throughout the country, according to a briefing given by Maj. Gen. Richard Tryon, MCRC commanding general, to the Corps’ senior enlisted Marines at the annual sergeants major symposium in August.

High rates of re-enlistment
The CNA study, released Oct. 31, shows that historical difficulties in recruiting black Marines are offset by tremendous success in retaining them.

According to the report, black Marines re-enlist at “significantly higher rates” than any other group of Marines, which makes their overall representation in the Corps higher than their representation among recruits.

The black Marines who currently account for 32 percent of all sergeants major and master gunnery sergeants in the Corps are the same Marines who represented only 20 percent of the group recruited 20 years ago, according to the study.

That’s because black Marines find the quality of life “uneven” in the civilian sector, according to the study.

“Although many black men succeed” on the outside, “extremely low marriage rates and relatively high unemployment rates characterize the civilian experience for some,” the study states. “In contrast, black male enlisted Marines have steady jobs and are just as likely to be married as their white counterparts” in the Corps.

Black Marines tend to gravitate toward support military occupational specialties outside the combat arms field, where they enjoy higher job satisfaction rates that contribute to their tendency to re-enlist, according to the study.

In fiscal 2006, the re-enlistment rate among black Marines approaching the end of their first contract was 40.4 percent, while first-term re-enlistment rates for white and Hispanic Marines were 23.8 percent and 27.6 percent, respectively, according to the study.

Retired Sgt. Maj. Gary Lee, a former sergeant major of the Marine Corps who worked on the report for the CNA, said the findings are a counterpoint to prevailing sentiments in the black community, where parents and teachers who influence potential black applicants largely oppose the current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and dissuade them from enlisting.

“All those things in our study we wanted to get out so that influencers in that community, even if they don’t like the concept of the current war, they will still view the Marine Corps as a positive thing for their sons and daughters,” he said.

The report recommends MCRC launch a public relations campaign in the black community to “publicize the lifestyle, job satisfaction and financial well-being that black youth can achieve through careers in the Corps,” though MCRC officials downplayed the possibility of trying anything new.

The Corps plans to spend more than $142 million on advertising this year, and while 75 percent is typically spent on general advertisements crossing racial and ethnic lines, the other 25 percent is earmarked for appeals to “African Americans, Hispanics, and every other ethnic group that may be put there,” said Eric Lindsay, diversity coordinator for MCRC’s marketing and advertising office.

“We’re continuing the march and just increasing the same efforts, doubling where we may be placing some print advertisement,” Lindsay said. “In the past, we’ve done six issues of ‘Ebony.’ Now we will do 12 issues.”

LWW
11-10-2007, 04:32 PM
Dey don't gotz no time fo yo STEEN-KING[/i] facts man!

LWW

wolfdancer
11-12-2007, 02:04 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Unclesamwantyou.jpg/180px-Unclesamwantyou.jpg

A couple of interesting articles:
web page (http://www.slate.com/id/2177426?GT1=10636)

web page (http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/3271/illegal_immigrants_uncle_sam_wants_you/)

Drop1
11-12-2007, 02:38 PM
Thanks Wolf,they are interesting. Figures don't lie,but liars figure.