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Gayle in MD
11-14-2007, 09:18 AM
After reading the repulsive post posted here by one of the "New" invaders from AZ, some of you may be interested in learning about the true state of our troops, and the true circumstance they face, still, daily, fighting a militarily unwinnable civil war in Iraq.

[ QUOTE ]
(CBS) They are the casualties of wars you don’t often hear about - soldiers who die of self-inflicted wounds. Little is known about the true scope of suicides among those who have served in the military.

But a five-month CBS News investigation discovered data that shows a startling rate of suicide, what some call a hidden epidemic, Chief Investigative Reporter Armen Keteyian reports exclusively.

“I just felt like this silent scream inside of me,” said Jessica Harrell, the sister of a soldier who took his own life.

"I opened up the door and there he was," recalled Mike Bowman, the father of an Army reservist.

"I saw the hose double looped around his neck,” said Kevin Lucey, another military father.

"He was gone,” said Mia Sagahon, whose soldier boyfriend committed suicide.

Keteyian spoke with the families of five former soldiers who each served in Iraq - only to die battling an enemy they could not conquer. Their loved ones are now speaking out in their names.

They survived the hell that's Iraq and then they come home only to lose their life.

Twenty-three-year-old Marine Reservist Jeff Lucey hanged himself with a garden hose in the cellar of this parents’ home - where his father, Kevin, found him.

"There's a crisis going on and people are just turning the other way,” Kevin Lucey said.

Kim and Mike Bowman’s son Tim was an Army reservist who patrolled one of the most dangerous places in Baghdad, known as Airport Road.

"His eyes when he came back were just dead. The light wasn't there anymore," Kim Bowman said.

Eight months later, on Thanksgiving Day, Tim shot himself. He was 23.

Diana Henderson’s son, Derek, served three tours of duty in Iraq. He died jumping off a bridge at 27.

"Going to that morgue and seeing my baby ... my life will never be the same," she said.

Beyond the individual loss, it turns out little information exists about how widespread suicides are among these who have served in the military. There have been some studies, but no one has ever counted the numbers nationwide.

"Nobody wants to tally it up in the form of a government total," Bowman said.

Why do the families think that is?

"Because they don't want the true numbers of casualties to really be known," Lucey said.

Sen. Patty Murray, D-Wash., is a member of the Veterans Affairs Committee.

"If you're just looking at the overall number of veterans themselves who've committed suicide, we have not been able to get the numbers,” Murray said.

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Watch more of Keteyian’s conversations with the families.
FYI: Suicide Warning Signs and Getting Help.
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CBS News’ investigative unit wanted the numbers, so it submitted a Freedom of Information Act request to the Department of Defense asking for the numbers of suicides among all service members for the past 12 years.

Four months later, they sent CBS News a document, showing that between 1995 and 2007, there were almost 2,200 suicides. That’s 188 last year alone. But these numbers included only “active duty” soldiers.

CBS News went to the Department of Veterans Affairs, where Dr. Ira Katz is head of mental health.

"There is no epidemic in suicide in the VA, but suicide is a major problem," he said.

Why hasn't the VA done a national study seeking national data on how many veterans have committed suicide in this country?

"That research is ongoing,” he said.

So CBS News did an investigation - asking all 50 states for their suicide data, based on death records, for veterans and non-veterans, dating back to 1995. Forty-five states sent what turned out to be a mountain of information.

And what it revealed was stunning.

In 2005, for example, in just those 45 states, there were at least 6,256 suicides among those who served in the armed forces. That’s 120 each and every week, in just one year.

Dr. Steve Rathbun is the acting head of the Epidemiology and Biostatistics Department at the University of Georgia. CBS News asked him to run a detailed analysis of the raw numbers that we obtained from state authorities for 2004 and 2005.

It found that veterans were more than twice as likely to commit suicide in 2005 than non-vets. (Veterans committed suicide at the rate of between 18.7 to 20.8 per 100,000, compared to other Americans, who did so at the rate of 8.9 per 100,000.)

One age group stood out. Veterans aged 20 through 24, those who have served during the war on terror. They had the highest suicide rate among all veterans, estimated between two and four times higher than civilians the same age. (The suicide rate for non-veterans is 8.3 per 100,000, while the rate for veterans was found to be between 22.9 and 31.9 per 100,000.)

"Wow! Those are devastating," said Paul Sullivan, a former VA analyst who is now an advocate for veterans rights from the group Veterans For Common Sense.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eye to Eye: Watch more of Keteyian's interview with Sullivan.
Read the Investigative Unit's Data and Methodology behind this story.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Those numbers clearly show an epidemic of mental health problems," he said.

“We are determined to decrease veteran suicides," Dr. Katz said.

“One hundred and twenty a week. Is that a problem?” Keteyian asked.

“You bet it’s a problem,” he said.

Is it an epidemic?

“Suicide in America is an epidemic, and that includes veterans,” Katz said.

Sen. Murray said the numbers CBS News uncovered are significant: “These statistics tell me we've really failed people that served our country."

Do these numbers serve as a wake-up call for this country?

“If these numbers don't wake up this country, nothing will,” she said. “We each have a responsibility to the men and women who serve us aren't lost when they come home."


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An update: Another member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Sen. Daniel Akaka, D-Hawaii, responded to the CBS News story Tuesday.

“The report that the rate of suicide among veterans is double that of the general population is deeply troubling and simply unacceptable. I am especially concerned that so many young veterans appear to be taking their own lives. For too many veterans, returning home from battle does not bring an end to conflict. There is no question that action is needed."


<hr /></blockquote>

I hope that those here who will surely vote Republican AGAIN, will remember this documented information when you go into the voting booth later this year, and also speak out against the ridiculous, dishonest kinds of statements included in the lies of the prolific poster from AZ, which are total BULL****! /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/13/cbsnews_investigates/main3496471.shtml

SKennedy
11-14-2007, 09:50 AM
Suicides and self-inflicted wounds are a very ugly and horrible thing.
However, they were not invented for this current war. As a Corpsman, I treated quite a few self-inflicted wounds. Some minor, some severe, some much worse than the person intended, and some ended in death. Nobody is arguing with you that war is bad. We all know that. You claim the war is unwinnable. If so, then the tragedy of the war is all the greater. And, all the worse if everyone agrees with you that it is unwinnable, when there is a chance to still "win." Of course, the debate about what constitutes winning or losing this war, regardless of what happens, will also continue for some time.

Gayle in MD
11-14-2007, 10:05 AM
It is the statement of our own Military, and the Baker Hamilton Iraq Study Group, which stated that this war is militarily unwinnable, not just an opinion of mine. Most all the documentation states that only a political solution can assuage the violence in Iraq.

This post aims to bring some reality forward, after some ridiculous statements made in another post, from a certain DOG, from AZ. I'm sorry I stopped to read his post, I don't usually do that. His cherry statements about the mental, and emotional conditions of our troops, of whom he states he is so in touch with, are a far far cry from my own experiences, being with them, and listening to their plight in dealing with this militarily unwinnable war in Iraq.

I think the numbers here show a vast contradiction to the TOTAL bws he is trying to promote in his false assertions about what he says he know about our troops.

Gayle in Md.

wolfdancer
11-14-2007, 10:17 AM
We have already won the war...but we're losing the occupation of the Country. Even King George, the 1st, knew that invading Iraq , would be a mistake.
My solution is to pull the troops out, napalm and agent orange the country ...and then lets go kick some Iranian a**

SKennedy
11-14-2007, 10:27 AM
"It is the statement of our own Military, and the Baker Hamilton Iraq Study Group, which stated that this war is militarily unwinnable, not just an opinion of mine."

Like I thought it was only your opinion?

"Most all the documentation states that only a political solution can assuage the violence in Iraq."

Consider the sources. Also, military does influence political solutions and vice versa.

"This post aims to bring some reality forward, after some ridiculous statements made in another post, from a certain DOG, from AZ. I'm sorry I stopped to read his post, I don't usually do that. His cherry statements about the mental, and emotional conditions of our troops, of whom he states he is so in touch with, are a far far cry from my own experiences, being with them, and listening to their plight in dealing with this militarily unwinnable war in Iraq."

It's your reality, not necessarily mine. But, when you go visit these troops, do you tell them the war is unwinnable and their efforts, as well as their fellow soldiers and friends are also completely fruitless, and they are nothing but stupid pawns?

"I think the numbers here show a vast contradiction to the TOTAL bws he is trying to promote in his false assertions about what he says he know about our troops."

I don't think either of you has a monopoly on the complete truth, nor do any of us. I think all assertions on these posts are biased.....some more than others, and certainly including mine.

Gayle in MD
11-14-2007, 10:51 AM
The tragedy in all this, IMO, is that this administration didn't listen to the experts. they never answered the "Then what" questions regarding what Iraq, and the rest of the Middle East would look like without Saddam, and an American occupation on Arab soil. It was like throwing gasoline on a smouldering fire. DUMB DUMB DUMB!

Iran, was very close to a more moderate regime at the time of the invasion, and had signaled to this administration, that they were ready to be allies, and engage in diplomacy.

We could have actually invaded Afghanistan, with their continuing help, (the did assist us in our efforts against the Taliban) and finished the job there, wiped al Qaeda, and its leader. We could have followed that up with special forces, surprise attacks on any other training ground, in the world, and penetrated cells, and mosques, everywhere, including here.

We could have taken advantage of all the good will we had at our disposal, after 9/11, to get other nations on board, in searching out al Qaeda cells, and training grounds, in other countries.

When they lumped Iraq/911/Saddam and alqaeda, in with their hidden oil agenda, and went off half cocked in Iraq, it was a huge mistake. Now we're stuck, and the Republican candidates, all but one, sound just like the saber rattling right wing neocons that made this mess, or failed to stand against it.

As Americans, we don't like to say or think that our people have died in vain. What can you call it, when the supposed reason, if it wasn't oil, for invading Iraq, was the supposed threat of Saddam's supposed connections to al Qaeda, 9/11, and having WMD's, which he didn't.

These short sighted oil men, didn't care about the aftermath, obviously, since their kids wouldn't be dying over there. They were only interested in the same things that their corporate cronies are only interested, their own bottom line.

It is absurd, to think that a country that can put a man on the moon, can't sucessfully research and create options to oil. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

It's also absurd that the so called religious right, and the Christian Organized Religions, which have built their own religious mansions, all over the world, didn't pay any attention when Jesus said, "The Love Of Money Is The Root Of All Evil."

The millionaires and billionares in the Oil Industry, are what was actually behind this policy from the start, and Bush and cheney, were their secret operatives, and the Saudi Arabia Oil Cartel, aka the Bush/Cheney comrads, played a huge role, supplying 9/11 terrorists for the neocon's desired excuse.

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
11-14-2007, 11:06 AM
[ QUOTE ]
"It is the statement of our own Military, and the Baker Hamilton Iraq Study Group, which stated that this war is militarily unwinnable, not just an opinion of mine."

Like I thought it was only your opinion?

<font color="red">Well, here's what you wrote...."You think the war is unwinnable." </font color>

"Most all the documentation states that only a political solution can assuage the violence in Iraq."

Consider the sources. <font color="red">The source is the military, including Patraeus, Baker/hamilton, all the retired generals who have psoken about the war in Iraq. I'm not going to argue about it. If you don't know that it is accepted as a fact, that this war is militaryily unwinnable, then you haven't been paying very close attention. </font color> Also, military does influence political solutions and vice versa. <font color="red">Our military, influences Iraqi political solutions? I don't think so. </font color>

"This post aims to bring some reality forward, after some ridiculous statements made in another post, from a certain DOG, from AZ. I'm sorry I stopped to read his post, I don't usually do that. His cherry statements about the mental, and emotional conditions of our troops, of whom he states he is so in touch with, are a far far cry from my own experiences, being with them, and listening to their plight in dealing with this militarily unwinnable war in Iraq."

It's your reality, not necessarily mine. But, when you go visit these troops, do you tell them the war is unwinnable and their efforts, as well as their fellow soldiers and friends are also completely fruitless, and they are nothing but stupid pawns?

<font color="red"> I find this question of yours insulting, and repulsive, and not worthy of an answer. </font color>

"I think the numbers here show a vast contradiction to the TOTAL bws he is trying to promote in his false assertions about what he says he know about our troops."

I don't think either of you has a monopoly on the complete truth, nor do any of us. I think all assertions on these posts are biased.....some more than others, and certainly including mine.
<font color="red">I think what Bamadog posted about the views of our troops was total bull. I'd wager he hasn't talked with more than a dozen. Also, this war is not like any other war we have sent our people to fight. They have never been abused, with constant redeployments, over and over, and without the equipment they needed, training, and R &amp; R, they need, to this degree.</font color>

bamadog
11-14-2007, 11:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;




"This post aims to bring some reality forward, after some ridiculous statements made in another post, from a certain DOG, from AZ. I'm sorry I stopped to read his post, I don't usually do that. His cherry statements about the mental, and emotional conditions of our troops, of whom he states he is so in touch with, are a far far cry from my own experiences, being with them, and listening to their plight in dealing with this militarily unwinnable war in Iraq."



<font color="red">I think what Bamadog posted about the views of our troops was total bull. I'd wager he hasn't talked with more than a dozen.




<hr /></blockquote>

You'd lose that wager.
Every time I go to the Marine Corps Birthday Ball I talk with at least a dozen Iraq veterans.
And I have a great time partying with heroes!

SKennedy
11-14-2007, 11:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Like I thought it was only your opinion?

<font color="red">Well, here's what you wrote...."You think the war is unwinnable." </font color>

And what I wrote is correct...you did saythe war is unwinnable. I never said you were the only person is the world smart enough to know that!


Consider the sources. <font color="red">The source is the military, including Patraeus, Baker/hamilton, all the retired generals who have psoken about the war in Iraq. I'm not going to argue about it. If you don't know that it is accepted as a fact, that this war is militaryily unwinnable, then you haven't been paying very close attention.

There are may things I do not know. But I really don't need to as long as you know everything.

</font color> Also, military does influence political solutions and vice versa. <font color="red">Our military, influences Iraqi political solutions? I don't think so. </font color>

Our military, and the threat of our military (good or bad), influences political solutions, policies, etc. all over the world. To think otherwise is just plain dumb...like your sheep you like to quote on. Why do you think many around the globe would love to dismantle or neutralize our military.

"This post aims to bring some reality forward, after some ridiculous statements made in another post, from a certain DOG, from AZ. I'm sorry I stopped to read his post, I don't usually do that. His cherry statements about the mental, and emotional conditions of our troops, of whom he states he is so in touch with, are a far far cry from my own experiences, being with them, and listening to their plight in dealing with this militarily unwinnable war in Iraq."

It's your reality, not necessarily mine. But, when you go visit these troops, do you tell them the war is unwinnable and their efforts, as well as their fellow soldiers and friends are also completely fruitless, and they are nothing but stupid pawns?

<font color="red"> I find this question of yours insulting, and repulsive, and not worthy of an answer. </font color>

I guess then you do not say that to the troops when you go see them. Therefore, I assume you do not give them your opinions and share your thoughts on the subject. So, you are being dishonest with them? You find my question insulting? To who? You or the troops? I certainly was not insulting them. I just wanted to know if you share your thoughts and opinions on the war with them? What is wrong with that question? Nothing....if you are honest with yourself and others.

"I think the numbers here show a vast contradiction to the TOTAL bws he is trying to promote in his false assertions about what he says he know about our troops."

I don't think either of you has a monopoly on the complete truth, nor do any of us. I think all assertions on these posts are biased.....some more than others, and certainly including mine.

<font color="red">I think what Bamadog posted about the views of our troops was total bull. I'd wager he hasn't talked with more than a dozen. Also, this war is not like any other war we have sent our people to fight. They have never been abused, with constant redeployments, over and over, and without the equipment they needed, training, and R &amp; R, they need, to this degree.</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

His opinions are crap and yours are always gold? Imagine that! This war is different? That's what they always say about each one that comes along. Read your military history. And before you accuse me of not knowing mine, be forewarned you need to think twice.

Gayle in MD
11-14-2007, 11:59 AM
Oh, I am so intimidated by your vast knowledge, a man who doesn't think human behavior has any influence on global warming.

Also, it's none of your business what transpires between myself, and those who are in need. They're not stupid about this war, or George Bush, or even Faux News, I can tell you that much. They know what's up, unlike you. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

SKennedy
11-14-2007, 12:26 PM
I didn't say anything about vast knowledge. I leave that to you.
I just asked you to not accuse me of knowing anything about military history, which you likely would have done.

And thanks for answering my question. "It's none of your business" is an answer and I can respect that. That answer provides more information that what is written.

Global warming issue again. Yes...I am too stupid to know what you know and form the same opinion you do. I'm sorry about that....too much Boone's Farm in my youth? I do note that you never got back with me when I answered your question about "toxins in the environment." I'm sure you would like to enlighten me on that subject as well. Send me your resume....I'm looking for an environmental engineer to help me on some projects. In fact, I'll work for you.

And, I did not mean to imtimidate you. I forgot for a minute that my role in this play is as a "dumb as sheep (stinky too), conservative, republican, ignorant, hick southerner." I'll try to keep in-step from now on so that you are not threatened in any way. The star is back on your dressing room door!

LWW
11-14-2007, 12:31 PM
Was there a point in that brilliant piece of prestidigitation?

Here are my thoughts:

-You have used CBS again as a source, which is akin to using the Weekly World News.

-Suicide rates have always been higher for combat vets.

-One of the main reasons is the amount of pain many of them carry with them everyday of their life.

LWW

Gayle in MD
11-14-2007, 12:36 PM
FYI, I aim to be a sounding board, when I visit our young heroes. I hope with all my heart, that they get as much value from my time with them, as I do.

I'm not a scientist, but I don't think an opinion on global warming requires a degree in Science.

As for my sheep comments, aimed at the 24 to 28 percent, who don't think bush lied us into this war, don't think the administration was liable for taking a part in exposing the identity of a covert agent, still think that we found WMD in Iraq, still think this war was the correct move, still believe that corporate bottom line wasn't the main reason for this occupation, and still believe that Bush policies, were worth the sacrifices which these young men and women have made, then I have no other way of viewing such opinions, other than to think that they cannot possibly be motivated by American Principles, and cencern for the plight of our troops. That's how I see it. there is way too much documentation out there, for anyone to still buy into those lies. IMO, our troops are being abused by this administration, and for all the wrong reasons.

Gayle in Md.

SKennedy
11-14-2007, 01:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> FYI, I aim to be a sounding board, when I visit our young heroes. I hope with all my heart, that they get as much value from my time with them, as I do.

I get value from them without having to spend time with them. I appreciate what they do for our country and tell them so whenever I see them. I am glad you visit them and are a sounding board. I am also glad you view them as heroes.

I'm not a scientist, but I don't think an opinion on global warming requires a degree in Science.

It doesn't, but if you will recall one of my first posts was about global warming and I disagreed with you. At that time, you called into question my credentials and indicated I had no idea what I was talking about since we disagreed. I guess that made you the "expert" and I just pointed out to you in subsequent posts that I actually do have some knowledge. But you are correct...opinions don't require degrees, and in fact, many times I value the non-degreed person who has a lot of common sense over the guy with the Ph.D. anytime.

As for my sheep comments, aimed at the 24 to 28 percent, who don't think bush lied us into this war, don't think the administration was liable for taking a part in exposing the identity of a covert agent, still think that we found WMD in Iraq, still think this war was the correct move, still believe that corporate bottom line wasn't the main reason for this occupation, and still believe that Bush policies, were worth the sacrifices which these young men and women have made, then I have no other way of viewing such opinions, other than to think that they cannot possibly be motivated by American Principles, and cencern for the plight of our troops. That's how I see it. there is way too much documentation out there, for anyone to still buy into those lies. IMO, our troops are being abused by this administration, and for all the wrong reasons.

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

You are entitled to your opinions. But, your opinions are not fact. I never said my opinions were fact. But, my opinions are just as valid as yours.

Gayle in MD
11-14-2007, 01:46 PM
You are right, in your world, my opinions about George Bush, and this war, probably sound way off. For me, they are facts, but then, I have invested a great deal of my time into forming them, and since I live near Washington D.C., and have lived here in Maryland, my entire life, I have had the opportunity to be there in person, during many investigations, and I've seen varuous testimony and investigations, as they proceed. I grew up with one of our present Senators, and have serveral personal friends, who are Senators, and also, some reporters, whose names you would redcognize, and with many others who work at the Senate, in the Capital Police Department, Justice, Customs, Secret Service, and in the Senate Office Building.

I have a virtual library here in my home, and have accumulated quite a cross section of written material, from journalists, and also from people inside this administration, many of them gone, now, but nevertheless, they were on the scene during the run up to this war, and before, and some, after.

I can say this much. I've heard everything from the stories of bartenders, who complain that since Republicans have been in office, their tips have suffered, to the men who work keeping the Senate offices building operating. And, I can tell you this much, there are examples, times when I think to myself, no one would believe this, if they weren't right here to see it. One of those times was when I witnessed, in person, how the Republicans treated the 9/11 families. Another time, war Rice's testimony 9/11. I'm not the average cable TV voter, if you know what I mean, and there are places in the city, where anything that is being hushed up, is being talked about, and an awful lot to be learned, just having a glass of wine.

But, above all, for me, atleast, and regardless of all the partisan accusations I recieve, it's all about our troops, and the constitution of the United States Of America, and my concerns over overwhelming American apathy, and a vast amount of propaganda, and how it is playing a role in events which I believe with all my heart, are bad for our country.

Hence, facts are very important to me, and finding them take a lot of time, but one can find them, or atleast, the best possible version of the facts, and that is my mission, because believe me, our troops need us all to perform the search.

SKennedy
11-14-2007, 02:23 PM
Sincerely, Gayle that was a very nice post. That was honest and heartfelt and I know you are very sincere. I know you are a very well educated lady and have many contacts, etc. (at least that is what I've gathered from your posts and posts of others that know you). I have never had an issue with your opinions other than to disagree with some (maybe many?) of them. But, I don't judge you, or at least I shouldn't, based on your opinions. But I do judge people by the way they treat others, especially when they find fault with others for doing the same thing they do. The main point I have been trying to make with you is that my opinions, right or wrong, are just as valid as yours, at least in my mind. And just because we don't agree on issues, doesn't mean that one of us is ignorant, believes in God, or from a certain "inferior" part of the country, or that we are a product of in-breeding, etc. I know you are a smart lady. I won't sit here and try to convince you how smart I am relative to Mensa, IQ's, or otherwise, but for the most part, I'm not overly dumb (just don't ask for confirmation from my wife..). I think my opinions are well-founded and primarily based upon good information and logic. My faith may not be based primarily upon logic....but that is why it is called "faith." I do have little faith in politicians, governments, or people with power, regardless of which side of the fence they proclaim to reside. I suspect you would likely agree with me on that point.
Just like global warming....is it occurring?....appears to be for the most part. Is it caused by man? Maybe....but I don't think so. Global weather patterns and natural forces are huge and complex systems that are much greater than man's influence on the planet. Carbon Dioxide (increase in the atmosphere) is pointed at as a contributing factor. However, studies show that it has been higher in the past. New studies are now being conducted to see if warmer air will hold more CO2. The actual cause and effect relationship that is being assumed to exist, may not be related at all other than the similar fact warm water holds more dissolved salt than cold water. Anyway, I do see more "scientists" jumping off the global warming bus, and more of them being vocal about it being nonsense. I just bring up global warming as an issue we disagree on and the fact that I do base my opinion on what I consider to be valid reasons.

bamadog
11-14-2007, 05:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>
This post aims to bring some reality forward, after some ridiculous statements made in another post, from a certain DOG, from AZ. I'm sorry I stopped to read his post, I don't usually do that. His cherry statements about the mental, and emotional conditions of our troops, of whom he states he is so in touch with, are a far far cry from my own experiences, being with them, and listening to their plight in dealing with this militarily unwinnable war in Iraq.


Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

You are delusional as usual, Gayle.
After all, you are a person who believes the war is about Bush and Cheney wanting to enrich their oil friends.
You believe, against mountains of evidence, that Clinton, Berger, and Clarke were focused on getting Bin Laden and destroying Islamofascism.
You believe that Bush is in league with the Bin Laden family.
You believe that Condi Rice is "evil".
You believe that "fascist corporations" control this country.
You believe, basically, what moveon.org tells you you believe.


So your observations about our troops are sorely suspect.

I think what you found so "disgusting" about my post was I found men in high morale who love their jobs and believe in their mission. And that is at odds with the portrayal of our troops as beaten and disillusioned that you have been pedalling here.

pooltchr
11-14-2007, 06:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Consider the sources. <font color="red">The source is the military, including Patraeus,
<hr /></blockquote>

Pardon the ignorance of this old southern boy, but didn't you tell us not so long ago that Patreaus was only capable of repeating the party line according to GW?

Is he a truthful man, or is he a liar?

Or do we just take what we agree with as the truth and throw out the rest?
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Steve

pooltchr
11-14-2007, 06:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> facts are very important to me, and finding them take a lot of time, but one can find them, or atleast, the best possible version of the facts, and that is my mission, because believe me, our troops need us all to perform the search. <hr /></blockquote>

Let me guess... By "best possible version of the facts", you mean the opinions you find that match your own?

There is no such thing as a best possible version of facts. Facts are facts...period. As soon as there is a "version" of the facts, they cease to be facts.
Steve

SKennedy
11-14-2007, 09:23 PM
Thank you. Logic is spoken here after all!

LWW
11-15-2007, 04:23 AM
To the neolibs there is no such thing as a true "FACT" as to them a fact is merely whatever lie is convenient.

Read 1984. It was quite prophetic, and Gayle is one of the most prolific practitioners of "DOUBLETHINK" that I have ever seen ... and that virus has ran amok in this forum.

LWW