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blahblahblahk
11-16-2007, 02:08 AM
Since there has been a lot of discussion about breaks lately on here. I thought I'd ask and see how people follow through with their breaks. Either follow down onto the table or up after contacting the cue ball. And also why they use that type of follow through. I usually break and follow down onto the felt. Just what feels natural for me I guess.

randyg
11-16-2007, 08:56 AM
Keeping my cue tip pointing at my target is paramount in my break. Anytime my cue tip rises above my SET position I may be in for a great loss of energy.......SPF=randyg

dr_dave
11-16-2007, 11:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote blahblahblahk:</font><hr> Since there has been a lot of discussion about breaks lately on here. I thought I'd ask and see how people follow through with their breaks. Either follow down onto the table or up after contacting the cue ball. And also why they use that type of follow through. I usually break and follow down onto the felt. Just what feels natural for me I guess.<hr /></blockquote>You left out another alternative: follow through straight and long, with the tip heading straight for the lead ball. This requires elbow drop and body lift, which enables more power for most people. But accuracy is more important than a little extra power, and not everybody can control and time the elbow drop and body lift consistently. So a more classic stroke with a still body and elbow might be better for some, in which case the tip should finish down.

Regards,
Dave

wolfdancer
11-16-2007, 02:04 PM
I noted though that Colin hits his break on the "upswing" (just like hitting a driver)
"Loss of energy" ...reminds me a little book on Golf that I read several years ago....it was on the order of "Golf in the Kingdom"...and is now out of print.
There was a line in there about gaining energy from each swing, instead of losing energy. (gain energy from each stroke?)
I thought the book would transpose nicely for pool....and still have my copy around.
While you don't "dwell" on the mental part of the game at your school....(??) I believe from what Tom has told me, that certain "keys" that you teach, allows/helps students to achieve that "heightened awareness" state..that is known by many names...like "the zone"
It's all sort of like dancing, in my thinking....at first you have to concentrate on the steps themselves....then, once mastered, it's now just the rhythm of the music that you are aware of....
Hey, now there's an idea...when you're not teaching pool...teach Ballroom dancing...
Hope you and the Staff, have a great Thanksgiving holiday!!!

av84fun
11-17-2007, 12:27 AM
There are two schools of thought.
1. The tip is only in contact with the ball for 1/1000 sec. and therefore, the CB has no idea whether you followed through or not. That is true.

2. It is impossible to accomplish a short follow through...say 1 inch for sake of argument...without decellerating the velocity of the cue BEFORE contact with the CB. That is true too.

Therefore, one CENTRAL purpose of the follow through is to ensure that you have not slowed the pace of the stroke down before CB contact which...all other things being equal...is guaranteed to lessen CB impact force upon the rack.

As for up/down trajectory of the follow through that has a LOT to due with the pre-impact trajectory and there are great breakers who scratch the cloth with their tip and those who actually hit the CB with an upward trajectory and keep going up.

The Phillipinos have REALLY interesting break strokes because many of them take their warm up stroks with the tip almost on the cloth...then "correct" the stroke so as to make CB contact roughly at center ball (or they would draw all the way back to the head rail...assuming a full hit on the 1 ball...but then FINISH the stroke with the tip on the table. In doing so, they actually have a vertical LOOP in their strokes...and Bustamante also has a LATERAL LOOP.

Don't try that at home folks because you may break your arm!!!

In my opinion, we mortals should default to the simplist stroke possible...one that we can tend to repeat as often as possible. For me, that is a lEVEL stroke (or very nearly so...maybe SLIGHTLY downward sloped when breaking off the rail) and a nearly level follow through.

Some top instructors believe that there is no useful purpose served in legthening the break follow through to a distance any longer than the follow through on your normal stroke...and I have no doubt that from a physics standpoint they are correct.

For me...following through as though I was extending the tip of the cue to hit my target spot on the 1 ball seems to help in getting a square hit more often than any other technique I've tried.

But finally, I think that massively powerful breaks are over rated and are often counter-productive since making a ball is of little help of the CB is not properly controlled.


Scientific types like Bob Jewett can probably tell you precisely but in my observation, there is a RAPIDLY declining curve of total energy applied to the rack given SMALL deviations from hitting the 1 ball dead square.

My guess is that if a mnster break is a 10 and a good A Player's break is a 7...then the 10 break may result in only 20% more impact force while, at the same time, the odds of dead square impact decline sharply.

Stated another way, if you hit the 1 ball dead square, you can hit it with considerably less CB speed and get the same total rack impact than if your speed is a good deal faster...and therefore, almost certainly less accurate.

Seems to me that IDEAL would be about 70% of your speed potential and a DEAD SQUARE hit.

Regards,
Jim

Sid_Vicious
11-17-2007, 01:59 AM
"Seems to me that IDEAL would be about 70% of your speed potential and a DEAD SQUARE hit."

I agree in that statement, hence the argument over the break in 9B being the end-all facet IMO is false. As far as the follow through,,,it tosses in a lot of missed pin point hits on the CB. Luv these slow breaks these days, even in 8-ball. A shorter break stroke, backed off on "pouncing speed" for a giant spread, is dangerous to me, UNLESS you are already a pro-player and KNOWS they are hitting the CB exactly where they mean to, AND I mean every time. Otherwise, take something off of your speed and flow into a predictable tip finish past the CB at break...sid

pooltchr
11-17-2007, 06:11 AM
Or to put it more simply...accuracy with less power is far better than power with less accuracy. It's all about transferring energy into the rack.
Steve

Fran Crimi
11-17-2007, 10:06 AM
Big big big follow through. Up and out straight over the rack works for me. Why? Because when I focus on doing that, I'm obviously doing something before I strike the ball with my tip that I don't do otherwise, because my breaks are much more successful with that follow through.

I don't like following through hard down into the cloth on the break shot. It makes me uncomfortable and I think I hold back my speed as a result.

Fran

av84fun
11-17-2007, 03:31 PM
Fran, the cloth doesn't like it either! One table I play on at JOB's looks like someone hit it with a weed whacker up in the breaking area!! (-:

Jal
11-17-2007, 03:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>...Scientific types like Bob Jewett can probably tell you precisely but in my observation, there is a RAPIDLY declining curve of total energy applied to the rack given SMALL deviations from hitting the 1 ball dead square.
<hr /></blockquote>It actually isn't too critical to hit the head ball square as far as energy loss is concerned. On a 3/4 ball hit, the cueball retains an extra 6%, approximately, of its pre-impact energy in speed, plus a little more in acquired spin from the collision. With a 7/8 hit, it's only about an extra 1.6% (plus a little more in spin).

Jim

Bob_Jewett
11-19-2007, 11:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>...It actually isn't too critical to hit the head ball square as far as energy loss is concerned. On a 3/4 ball hit, the cueball retains an extra 6%, approximately, of its pre-impact energy in speed, plus a little more in acquired spin from the collision. With a 7/8 hit, it's only about an extra 1.6% (plus a little more in spin).

Jim <hr /></blockquote>
On the other hand if the cue ball retains energy, it retains speed and that will make it hit a rail. Rails have holes in them that must be avoided. The easiest way to avoid them is to never hit the rails.

Stretch
11-19-2007, 05:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>...It actually isn't too critical to hit the head ball square as far as energy loss is concerned. On a 3/4 ball hit, the cueball retains an extra 6%, approximately, of its pre-impact energy in speed, plus a little more in acquired spin from the collision. With a 7/8 hit, it's only about an extra 1.6% (plus a little more in spin).

Jim <hr /></blockquote>
On the other hand if the cue ball retains energy, it retains speed and that will make it hit a rail. Rails have holes in them that must be avoided. The easiest way to avoid them is to never hit the rails. <hr /></blockquote>

Yep, great advice there all right. Hmmmm lemmy seeeeeee, there are four corner packets about 4 1/2 inches wide and 2 side pockets about 5 inches wide so that adds up to approximately.............OMG! that's like almost 2 and a half feet of HOLE! No wonder.......St.

Jal
11-19-2007, 07:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>...It actually isn't too critical to hit the head ball square as far as energy loss is concerned. On a 3/4 ball hit, the cueball retains an extra 6%, approximately, of its pre-impact energy in speed, plus a little more in acquired spin from the collision. With a 7/8 hit, it's only about an extra 1.6% (plus a little more in spin).

Jim <hr /></blockquote>
On the other hand if the cue ball retains energy, it retains speed and that will make it hit a rail. Rails have holes in them that must be avoided. The easiest way to avoid them is to never hit the rails. <hr /></blockquote>Words of wisdom. But if you're breaking from the side cushion, you don't have to worry about much energy being lossed by hitting the head ball a bit off center in order to bring the cueball back up the middle of the table.

Without having worked it out above, I guessed that the spin related energy drain, caused by friction with the head ball, would increase the sited percentages a little. Naturally, that was wrong. The slowing of the cueball along the tangent line more than makes up for this.

So, given that it's probably safe to assume that the cueball will end up rolling across the head ball even if it has some topspin (but not too much), and if the impact isn't too far off center, the extra energy retained by the cueball in tangential speed and acquired sidespin for a 3/4 hit is only about 4.9%. With a 7/8 hit, it's down to 1.2%.

(I know, who cares, but there it is.)

Jim

nAz
11-19-2007, 07:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Or to put it more simply...accuracy with less power is far better than power with less accuracy. It's all about transferring energy into the rack.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

It's all about "accurately" transferring energy into the rack.
nuff said!

av84fun
11-20-2007, 03:29 PM
JAL..."It actually isn't too critical to hit the head ball square as far as energy loss is concerned. On a 3/4 ball hit, the cueball retains an extra 6%, approximately, of its pre-impact energy in speed, plus a little more in acquired spin from the collision. With a 7/8 hit, it's only about an extra 1.6% (plus a little more in spin)."

That surprised me (and a few others here). I always thought that the energy transfer loss was much more pronounced than that. I stand corrected.

But as Bob stated, avoiding a scratch is best accomplished with a square hit so I will try to keep hitting as square as I can.

Thanks,
Jim

Jal
11-20-2007, 06:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> JAL..."It actually isn't too critical to hit the head ball square as far as energy loss is concerned. On a 3/4 ball hit, the cueball retains an extra 6%, approximately, of its pre-impact energy in speed, plus a little more in acquired spin from the collision. With a 7/8 hit, it's only about an extra 1.6% (plus a little more in spin)."

That surprised me (and a few others here). I always thought that the energy transfer loss was much more pronounced than that. I stand corrected.

But as Bob stated, avoiding a scratch is best accomplished with a square hit so I will try to keep hitting as square as I can.

Thanks,
Jim
<hr /></blockquote>Sorry to nitpick your post Jim but it's what I do, lacking in the creative department as I am. You had some excellent things to say, imo, especially regarding the exaggerated follow through.

I guess the moral is that if you want to hit slightly off-center to bring the cueball up the middle of the table after a side cushion break, for instance, not much is sacrificed in terms of energy.

Jim

av84fun
11-22-2007, 01:14 AM
Hi Jim,

No worries about "nit picking." I didn't take it that way at all. I feel as though I was "taught" not "nit picked."

I'm here to LEARN...and to once in a great while, contribute something.

Regards,
Jim

Snapshot9
11-22-2007, 06:52 AM
No matter how long you play this sport, you learn something everyday, or everytime you play it.

Sitting at home in my sweats the other night, about the 5th straight day and night in them, hadn't shaved, been involved in computer projects to a large extent, I get a call from my big brother. It was 6:50 pm, "We're a player short of our team, and we need you", he said. "I'm grubby, haven't shaved or anything", I replied back.

(Now this is a normal classic type line from my big bud),
"We don't care how you look, only how you shoot" ..... LOL

His team (the lawyers team) with only him and Fred as lawyers left on the team, and a couple new members were in second place, and were shooting a makeup match, only 4 games out of being tied for 1st. I am a sub on the team, having played about 4 times previously, and I was trying to get them over the hump into 1st. I used to play regular with them, being the anchor man on the team.

I, quickly jumped into the shower, did a 2 minute Navy shower, and jumped into some clean clothes, and grabbed my stick and took off for South Wichita, where the match was being in their home room of the new place, Stix.

I got there in plenty of time, as Fred was still playing his first game of the match. Fred, a lawyer, is a real character and a hoot to be around. We won the 1st round, and lost the 2nd round. I was breaking the 3rd, 4th game, and they make a comment that at least my back leg didn't come off the ground when I broke that time. &lt;Grinning&gt;, I never knew that back leg came off the ground when I break.... and I have playing 46 years, so see, you can learn something everyday, even if it is about yourself .... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

By the way, we won the 3rd and 4th rounds, totals, so we won 4 and lost 1, and are tied for 1st now with 2 weeks to go.

dklong92
11-28-2007, 07:07 AM
Boy, this topic sure has wandered from the original question /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif I have just started playing pool again a couple weeks ago after taking a break of about 10 years.

I seem to remember that the main idea of the break was to scatter balls, making at least one of them, and leaving the cue ball central on the table. Whether you break from the rail, have a firm bridge on the felt, break from the center or either side rail, keep the cue level, go up with the tip, or down into the felt...none of that truly matters. As long as balls scatter, at least one ball drops, and the cue stays in the center area of the table. Find what works for you and stick with it. Lets get back to basics folks and not confuse the poor guy who asked a simple question.