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Billy_Bob
11-18-2007, 02:48 PM
I remember when I first started playing pool. There was this "A" player type who no one liked (because he always won) who would always leave the cue ball conveniently right where it should be for his next shot. But sometimes he would mess up and he would not have a shot. Then whoever was playing him or someone watching would quickly comment "Ha Ha, Now what are you going to do?" Or "Nice leave!" (Basically they were disgusted with how effortlessly he always left the cue ball for his next shot, so they were quick gloat about any errors he made.)

Well I was playing someone 8-ball last night. I shot in about 6 balls in a row and left the cue ball exactly in a good spot for each next shot. (Opponent was silent and looking disgusted with each additional shot.)

Then I messed up and left the cue ball where I had no shot...

My opponent suddenly came alive and said "Ha! Now what are you going to do?" (A look of joy on his face!) Well I suddenly realized, I am getting much better at leaving the cue ball for my next shot (position), to the point my opponents are now gloating when I mess up! (Good thing in my mind!)

Anyway the way I learned to play position (leave the cue ball in a good spot for my next shot) was the following...

1. Jimmy Reid's "Art of 8-ball" video. This was great. It showed me in general what I *should* be trying to do. Basically that I should make a shot and also shoot that shot in a way which will leave the cue ball in a good spot for my next shot. How to run a table in general. The basic idea.

2. Dr Dave's DVD "The Illustrated Principles of Pool and Billiards". This taught me that you can hit the cue ball differently and depending on how you hit it, you can make the cue ball go in a certain direction after the hit. There are options. You can change where the cue ball will go after a hit. And you can learn to predict where the cue ball is going to go after a hit (what direction).

3. Then practice "speed control". Learning to shoot anywhere from a very very slow shot to a very fast shot so the cue ball will stop where you want after a hit. Getting the cue ball to stop at just the right spot after a hit. Hitting with just the right amount of speed.

4. Learning that a full on hit will "kill the cue ball" whereas a thin cut will send the cue ball "flying off into space". Learning that each time the cue ball hits a rail, its speed is reduced. Learning that "running english" on a cue ball can make the cue ball speed up when it hits a rail.

5. Learning that "what goes forward will come back"! That is instead of trying to get the cue ball to come backwards with a draw shot, many times you can use follow and a bit of speed to send the cue ball forwards after the shot, then hit the rail and come back!

6. Then having all this "knowledge in my mind" and "knowing what I should try to do for each shot (to get the cue ball to go where I want). Then working daily on trying to get the cue ball to go where I want after each shot. Guessing where the cue ball will go after my shot. Paying attention to where the cue ball goes after each shot.

7. Then doing number 6 for about 2 or 3 years. I think paying attention to where the cue ball goes after each shot is a biggie. When I first started playing, I did not care where it went and thus did not notice. So I never learned anything about position play. (Didn't know I *should* be leaving the cue ball anywhere!)

Now I can "visualize" ahead of time where the cue ball will go after each shot. I "see" it before I shoot. I see the path on the table the cue ball will travel after the shot.

I think the thing which has taken the most time is learning *exactly* the direction the cue ball will go after a shot. This is as opposed to "the general direction" the cue ball will go after a shot. Seeing that if it goes its natural direction, it will hit another ball, then learning how much english to apply to the cue ball to make it avoid hitting that ball (one tip english, two tips english, three, etc.) This has taken me a lot of time. (Still a beginner with this of course, but can now sometimes do this.)

Ralph_Kramden
11-18-2007, 04:13 PM
From this /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif To this /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif ...Congrats.

Vapros
11-18-2007, 05:06 PM
A good drill for this is to play 'scratch pool'. Dump all 15 balls out on the table and then try to scratch on every shot. Hit any ball you want and try to make it carom off another ball into a pocket. This will force you to pay attention to where a cue ball 'wants' to go, and soon you can begin to make the necessary adjustments to make it go where you want it to.

MrLucky
11-18-2007, 09:12 PM
I watch and study the pros I turn off the sound and try to see what they are seeing and doing and understanding WHY!

SKennedy
11-19-2007, 09:34 AM
"Exact" direction vs "General" direction of the cue ball is my problem, along with ball speed. Many times I get close to where I want to be, but not "perfect" enough in my mind. Also, there is normally more than 1 way to get position, with one leaving you a bigger margin for "error" relative to cue ball speed, etc. to allow for good position on the next shot. I also have problems seeing the other "paths." However, it is hard to work on these things when you are only playing once a week for about 2 hours.
I will say (jokingly) "Nice Leave" only to an opponent that I know very well who will take it in the manner intended.

Billy_Bob
11-19-2007, 11:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> "Exact" direction vs "General" direction of the cue ball is my problem, along with ball speed...
...However, it is hard to work on these things when you are only playing once a week for about 2 hours...
<hr /></blockquote>

I am learning "exact" direction by using Dr. Dave's 30/90 degree rules and peace sign. Then 3 years of predicting where the ball will go, then seeing where it actually goes.

So just tons of time observing what actually happens after each shot.

Note that I have taken a lot of time off of playing in the summers (doing summer stuff). This past summer I was only playing about once a week. But still was able to get a little better on my "predicting" of where the cue ball would go. Just a lot more slow to learn stuff when not playing as often.

The speed thing is very difficult when you are trying to figure out how much speed to use for the cue ball to stop somewhere after a shot. The following was quite helpful in my learning...

Loss of speed of cue ball...
Full ball hit - 100%
3/4 ball hit - 75%
1/2 ball hit - 50%
1/4 ball hit - 25%
Thin hit - 0-10%

One rail - about 40% loss of speed.

Then if you are using running english, this can make the cue ball speed up when it hits a rail at an angle. I use this knowledge to my advantage.

Sometimes I have a shot into the corner and need to use follow to get the cue ball to continue on 3 or 4 rails to get to the opposite end of the table. There is no way on earth I can use enough follow to get the speed up for some of these shots (I'm not a muscle bound young whipper snapper). So what I do to help the ball get to the opposite end is use lots of running english along with follow.

The follow gets the cue ball to the first rail after the shot, then the running english takes effect and speeds that ball up to give it the speed to shoot around the table.

Much easier than just using tons of follow.

And this amazes people. They see me shooting up table into the corner and see I need to get back down to the opposite end. My opponent looks like "HA! I've got him now, he can't possibly shoot that in and get back to the opposite end of the table. He will have a bank shot!" Well I shoot and the cue ball nicely speeds its way around and back down table. They look at me like "How did he do that?"

bsmutz
11-19-2007, 01:47 PM
Hey, BB. Good to see you taking the time to post again. Hope you had a good summer. I've been working on speed lately so that I can compete on the smaller tables after practicing on the big tables. Good stuff!

dr_dave
11-19-2007, 02:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> "Exact" direction vs "General" direction of the cue ball is my problem, along with ball speed...
...However, it is hard to work on these things when you are only playing once a week for about 2 hours...<hr /></blockquote>I am learning "exact" direction by using Dr. Dave's 30/90 degree rules and peace sign. Then 3 years of predicting where the ball will go, then seeing where it actually goes.<hr /></blockquote>Billy_Bob,

It's good to see you posting again. It seems like you were gone for a while. It is also great to hear how well you are doing. Keep up the good work.

Concerning the 30-degree rule, two things important with getting closer to "exact" are having good understanding and intuition of speed effects (see my June '05 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2005/june05.pdf)) and having your peace-sign well calibrated for different cut angles (see my 30-degree-rule angle templates (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/30-degree-rule_angle_templates.pdf)).

Good luck with you continued development. You seem to have come a long way in a fairly short time.

Regards,
Dave

SKennedy
11-19-2007, 02:37 PM
I'm not knocking 30 or 90 degree rules, etc., but if you play that much and have enough experience you just know, within reason, generally what the cue ball will do without having to shoot the "peace" sign. And then when you start to factor in all the other variables.....
Basic understanding is important, and I wish I had known much of this stuff when I first started playing (Dave where were you 30 to 40 years ago?). However, nothing beats practice and experience! When I run out the table (not that frequent) and I'm shooting really well, it is effortless. I'm not thinking or working real hard to get shape, it just happens. Not in a haphazard sort of way...it is done at a conscious level, but I don't have to rack my brain to get there. It just flows....
My preferred game is played fairly rapid. That way I don't pontificate too much about what I need to do, or worse yet, what I didn't do. I have missed shots that were very makeable because I didn't execute the "perfect" shape, when the shape I ended up with was good enough to get the job done.

dr_dave
11-19-2007, 02:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> I'm not knocking 30 or 90 degree rules, etc., but if you play that much and have enough experience you just know, within reason, generally what the cue ball will do without having to shoot the "peace" sign.<hr /></blockquote>I also tend to use my intuition first, but when I have a critical shot or lots of ball traffic, I like to affirm my intuition by using my well-calibrated peace-sign to tell me more exactly where the cue ball will go. When I can check or validate my intuition, I have more confidence in the shot and I will probably be more likely to execute it properly. But I know this might not work for everybody.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr>And then when you start to factor in all the other variables.....<hr /></blockquote>Again, I always like to back up my intuition with knowledge and understanding.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr>Basic understanding is important, and I wish I had known much of this stuff when I first started playing (Dave where were you 30 to 40 years ago?). However, nothing beats practice and experience!<hr /></blockquote>Agreed! Nothing is better than solid intuition built by years and years of successful practice and experience.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr>When I run out the table (not that frequent) and I'm shooting really well, it is effortless. I'm not thinking or working real hard to get shape, it just happens. Not in a haphazard sort of way...it is done at a conscious level, but I don't have to rack my brain to get there. It just flows....
My preferred game is played fairly rapid. That way I don't pontificate too much about what I need to do, or worse yet, what I didn't do. I have missed shots that were very makeable because I didn't execute the "perfect" shape, when the shape I ended up with was good enough to get the job done.<hr /></blockquote>Sounds good to me. I also like being "in stroke," but I also like being able to build confidence by checking or validating my intuition on some shots.

Regards,
Dave

SKennedy
11-19-2007, 03:05 PM
I agree...it's just that my "peace" sign if not well calibrated. And...you know that they say about the best laid plans of mice and men?

Validating and checking your intuition? Just sounds too logical to me. I kind of like verification of my intuition after the shot. Sometimes it's more fun (and embarrasing) that way!

dr_dave
11-19-2007, 03:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> I agree...it's just that my "peace" sign if not well calibrated. And...you know that they say about the best laid plans of mice and men?

Validating and checking your intuition? Just sounds too logical to me. I kind of like verification of my intuition after the shot. Sometimes it's more fun (and embarrasing) that way!<hr /></blockquote>Well stated!

I personally have more fun when I execute more shots well and win, and I like to use all of the intuition, experience, and knowledge I have towards that goal.

Now I just need to practice, practice, practice ... because all of the intuition, experience, and knowledge in the world isn't worth much if you don't have good feel and good speed control. That just takes lots of frequent table time.

Dave

SKennedy
11-19-2007, 04:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>
Now I just need to practice, practice, practice ... because all of the intuition, experience, and knowledge in the world isn't worth much if you don't have good feel and good speed control. That just takes lots of frequent table time.Dave <hr /></blockquote>

And that, Dr Dave, is exactly why I am an amateur! And an inconsistent one at that!

Fran Crimi
11-19-2007, 04:29 PM
You've been posting advice on here for players for quite awhile---Maybe a few years? And you've only just recently learned how to play position?

Yeeikes. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran

SKennedy
11-19-2007, 04:48 PM
Fran,
Being recent to this forum and not knowing all names on the WPBA tour, I was unfamiliar with yours until about 2 or 3 months ago.
I record and watch ESPN Classic and they have recently had 9-ball matches from 1999. They have shown your name twice as an opponent of one of the finalists. I'm sure the cameras may have also captured you in the gallery, but since I don't know you....can't say for sure.
Anyway, just wanted to let you know how much I respect you "ladies of the table" and how much I enjoy watching those old matches. Allison was winning then, and still winning today!
Thanks for being a part of the game and thanks for helping the sport.
SKennedy (another Steve)

Fran Crimi
11-19-2007, 07:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> Fran,
Being recent to this forum and not knowing all names on the WPBA tour, I was unfamiliar with yours until about 2 or 3 months ago.
I record and watch ESPN Classic and they have recently had 9-ball matches from 1999. They have shown your name twice as an opponent of one of the finalists. I'm sure the cameras may have also captured you in the gallery, but since I don't know you....can't say for sure.
Anyway, just wanted to let you know how much I respect you "ladies of the table" and how much I enjoy watching those old matches. Allison was winning then, and still winning today!
Thanks for being a part of the game and thanks for helping the sport.
SKennedy (another Steve) <hr /></blockquote>


Hey there, Steve. How nice!

On behalf of the ladies of the table, I thank you.

Fran

Billy_Bob
11-20-2007, 10:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>...when I have a critical shot or lots of ball traffic, I like to affirm my intuition by using my well-calibrated peace-sign to tell me more exactly where the cue ball will go...<hr /></blockquote>

Yes, these are the situations where I need to get out my "surveying tools" - "ball traffic", etc. If it is a wide open table, then general area leave is OK.

Eric.
11-20-2007, 10:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> You've been posting advice on here for players for quite awhile---Maybe a few years? And you've only just recently learned how to play position?

Yeeikes. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Ya know, Fran? As a general statement, that's one of my biggest peeves about Pool forums; people positioning themselves as "Experts" when they really aren't. It's self serving and doesn't do anything for anyone else.


Eric

Billy_Bob
11-20-2007, 10:43 AM
Hummm... Same old forum - good and bad!

Anyway I feel that those who have recently learned something know best what has helped them to learn the best. It is "fresh" in their mind. I know as the years go by, I tend to forget what I did to learn something.

My game has been helped very little by "big name players". Actually some of the WORST videos I have are from big name players. Some of them have misinformation. I suppose if I was at that level though, I would not want to share what I knew either!

It is the non-big name players who have helped me the most!

And so far as my just learning something about pool. I will say I will never get to the point where I have learned all about something. I feel I will be continuing to learn about pool for the rest of my life! Of course this is what makes the game so fun.

So far as advice giving here, I would hope that EVERYONE gives tips on what has helped them. I have learned things for many different skill levels of players.

And of course anyone with an ounce of sense will know that a day one beginner can hear something a very good player told them. Then that beginner can repeat the tip here. I could care less who is posting the information. If it is a good tip which will help me to improve my game, then I want to hear about it! So share your advice. I want to hear it as do many others.

Of course if the advice is wrong, then others are free to correct that advice or offer alternatives. This is what makes the internet such a great place to learn!

Fran Crimi
11-20-2007, 11:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr>
Ya know, Fran? As a general statement, that's one of my biggest peeves about Pool forums; people positioning themselves as "Experts" when they really aren't. It's self serving and doesn't do anything for anyone else.

Eric <hr /></blockquote>

Eric, I think that most people can tell the real deal from the blowhards. And those who can't will just have a more interesting life learning experience. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Just be grateful that you're one of the ones who can tell the difference.

Fran

SKennedy
11-20-2007, 11:18 AM
Eric, it's called human nature! I'm certainly no "expert" at billiards and I either ask a question on here or I may provide an "opinion" based upon my experience. However, I've had pool players much better than I learn something from me about the game (rare occasion), and I've learned from players that were not nearly as good as me (often). I think if you are a good enough player with enough experience, you learn who is full of crap and who isn't on here. Any forum is going to have that problem. The question though is whether or not the benefits outweight the negatives. In my opinion...yes...which is why those of us who are the less-skilled players come to this forum to learn. And we appreciate the sharing of that information.
And this issue is not just related to pool forums.

Fran Crimi
11-20-2007, 11:24 AM
Steve, I don't think Eric has a problem with people sharing information. I don't have problem with that in the least, either. It's those who have been known to act like 'experts.' Those are the ones that probably need to be a bit more explicit about the fact that they are just sharing their experience rather than offering their expert advice.

Fran

Fran Crimi
11-20-2007, 11:39 AM
Now wait a minute. Haven't you been preaching about pool for a couple of years here, and sharing the wisdom of your knowledge? I was just asking you a simple question.

After all that sharing you've done, and all the stories you've written about offering help to undeserving characters you've come across, you've only just learned how to play position? Doesn't that seem rather odd to you?

Fran

Eric.
11-20-2007, 11:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> Eric, it's called human nature!... <hr /></blockquote>

What? Narcissism? Stroking one's ego?

Like Fran mentioned, I dont have a problem with people voicing opinions. My biggest peeve is when people start posturing and wording things from an "expert's view" that I find boorish.

The funny thing is that experts in many other fields have credentials i.e. a teaching Golf pro isn't a pro unless they play a scratch game, but it's a different world with the Pool forums.

So, the thing I question about the unqualified "Pool forum experts" (not forum members with opinions) is-

What is the motivation to appear as an expert or authority?

Ego? Perceived self image?


Eric

Billy_Bob
11-20-2007, 11:45 AM
I am sometimes very amused by some of the negative comments I have read by some people here. Sometimes I am just passing along some tip I learned from a *very very* good player. Sometimes even a "big name".

Then someone looks at my name and assumes I don't know what I am talking about because I don't have a "big name", therefore the advice can't be worth a hill of beans. Well the advice is not "from me", I am just passing it along. Of course I don't point this out because I feel it is a waste of time, etc. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

When you assume....

SKennedy
11-20-2007, 02:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> Eric, it's called human nature!... <hr /></blockquote>

What? Narcissism? Stroking one's ego?

What is the motivation to appear as an expert or authority?

Ego? Perceived self image?Eric <hr /></blockquote>

Unfortunately yes. These are attributes, albeit negative ones, of human nature. The key word here is "motivation." You have to read between the lines and try to decipher the author's true motivation. However, selfish motivations don't necessarily make the information provided in the message wrong.

We can relate with the initial post because we remember a time when we looked up to a much better player and wondered if we would ever be there. One day, we realize we have made it that far..of course that doesn't mean we don't have miles yet to go....
A similar post by the same author is about someone making a statement "Nice shot." While what he says may be true (although why would someone say nice shot on a relatively easy shot if your shape was correct?), would you really say anything other than "thank you?" We know what the hard shots are for us. Does anyone point them out to their opponent? I would not play with someone who did. And if I said "nice shot" I would not expect my opponent to lecture me on his abilities prior to that shot. My response to him....increased focus and my effort to win...and I likely would quit playing that individual as long as I had a choice.

Fran Crimi
11-20-2007, 03:44 PM
[ QUOTE ]
So, the thing I question about the unqualified "Pool forum experts" (not forum members with opinions) is-

What is the motivation to appear as an expert or authority?

Ego? Perceived self image?


Eric

<hr /></blockquote>

IMO--- It all comes down to one word --- Immaturity.

The motivation is easy. Lots of people would like to be perceived as an expert. But it's the child's mindset who acts out and the adult's mindset who has learned how to check himself.

Fran

bsmutz
11-20-2007, 06:26 PM
Since you and Eric are two "experts", why don't you post a thread letting us "unqualified" "blowhards" know what it takes to become an "expert" in your opinion(s)? In order to show more maturity, should we run our posts by you in a PM so you can approve them for general posting?
It sounds like our life experiences aren't good enough. It also must therefore be true that anything we've read or been told by what the majority of people would consider to be an expert must also be inadequate. Please elucidate us on what made you an "expert" if it wasn't your experiences and learnings?
Seriously, I would genuinely like to know what kind of qualifications we have to have to make it okay to post anything that may be construed as advice.

wolfdancer
11-20-2007, 08:01 PM
I think Billy's just trying to write down and share, what works for him....it might be "old news" for me...but I don't mind a "refresher" course.
Hey, anybody that would drive a 100 miles one way to help you set up your pool tables...is a good guy......

Drop1
11-20-2007, 09:22 PM
Never met a player,that wasn't an expert,of course they play down what they know,as they take my money. I do have to say,Fran has helped me on a few occasions,getting pass some things that were holding back my game,some helpful advice on the Forum,for free. Course,the classic definition of an expert,is a guy from out of town./ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Billy_Bob
11-21-2007, 08:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> Hey, BB. Good to see you taking the time to post again. Hope you had a good summer. I've been working on speed lately so that I can compete on the smaller tables after practicing on the big tables. Good stuff! <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Bill! I had a ton of projects to work on over the summer. Actually I did not even want to play pool and this reflected in my playing. I was thinking about my projects instead of my playing and therefore I played quite lousy! But now my mind is back on pool and I'm quickly coming back up to speed.

Anyway that must be quite difficult, being used to playing on your snooker table (speed), then all of a sudden going and playing on a small table!

Billy_Bob
11-21-2007, 08:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I think Billy's just trying to write down and share, what works for him...<hr /></blockquote>

Yes, exactly!

When I first started reading the pool forums on the internet, I was hit by all sorts of "tips" from people who were "trying to make a buck". I read things like...

"Buy this video, it is the best!"
"Buy this book, it is the best!"
"Buy this product and your game will improve!"
"Going to an instructor is the only way to learn *anything* about pool (and by the way I am an instructor!)"
Etc.

Unfortunately I spent my money on some worthless books/videos. I quickly learned the people who were giving these "tips" were the people who were selling the products.

But there were a few books/videos which REALLY helped me.

So that is all I am doing. Just one person saying... Hey this is what helped me to learn how to do this. Feedback from one player who is not here to make a buck, but is here to learn.

Eric.
11-21-2007, 09:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> Since you and Eric are two "experts", why don't you post a thread letting us "unqualified" "blowhards" know what it takes to become an "expert" in your opinion(s)? In order to show more maturity, should we run our posts by you in a PM so you can approve them for general posting?
It sounds like our life experiences aren't good enough. It also must therefore be true that anything we've read or been told by what the majority of people would consider to be an expert must also be inadequate. Please elucidate us on what made you an "expert" if it wasn't your experiences and learnings?
Seriously, I would genuinely like to know what kind of qualifications we have to have to make it okay to post anything that may be construed as advice. <hr /></blockquote>

Another worthless post of someone looking for an argument.


Eric

SKennedy
11-21-2007, 09:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Hey, anybody that would drive a 100 miles one way to help you set up your pool tables...is a good guy...... <hr /></blockquote>

Hard to argue that point!

Jal
11-21-2007, 01:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr>...As a general statement, that's one of my biggest peeves about Pool forums; people positioning themselves as "Experts" when they really aren't.<hr /></blockquote>Apparently, you would prefer something more like an "ask the experts" format than a forum. And likely the experts would be limited to touring pros, ex-touring pros, and certified instructors. That would make it neat and tidy for sure, but less flexible. Here, there is an opportunity to debate things which are not cut-and-dried, and to challenge the experts on occasion, as even they aren't always right.

Since Fran brought up motives while tossing 'immaturity' into the mix, and you characterized Bsmutz's trenchant observations as worthless, and both of you questioned Billy Bob's intentions, and both of you make a habit of needling Dr. Dave, who certainly understands the physics on the theoretical side better than 99% of players and instructors, perhaps you guys should step back and examine your own motives (and which of us would escape flogging here?). A little more criticism or praise directed at what is said, and not who says it, would be a nice.

Jim

wolfdancer
11-21-2007, 02:55 PM
Jim, in every pool hall I've ever been in, you'll always see somebody trying to help out the weaker player. It's not always the best info they are disseminating, but their intentions are good. I always think we are most times students of the game, and sometimes,"teachers".
I see the same "sharing" of info... by the other guy, on the golf course.
I just tried out a batting tip that I read, for my break. I like it, but I'd never try to post it here.
Dr Dave gets criticism for the same reasons that Billy Bob does...neither one is a "Player", of any renown...but that's the nature of the beast. I've got "Doc's" DVD, which has plenty of good info...and while I'm open to learning from him, I could probably win the match if we were playing...well, maybe...or, hopeully...

Billy_Bob
11-22-2007, 12:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>...A little more criticism or praise directed at what is said, and not who says it, would be a nice...
<hr /></blockquote>

That is all I care about. Is the information correct or not? Is there another or better way to do something?

I am here to learn, so appreciate anyone giving tips or correcting/adding to what I have to say. Then I learn.

And if you are a day one beginner, there may be something someone told you which helped you. Please share. It might help someone else.

dr_dave
11-23-2007, 12:20 PM
Billy_Bob,

I have also been very dismayed many times over the years with much of the "interaction" on this forum. I wish I knew what motivates some people to be so negative and vindictive. Maybe the Holiday Season will remind people to try to be more tolerant, kind, supportive, and willing to share.

Let's all hope and strive for more healthy debate and discussion (even if there is passionate disagreement) and less negative criticism.

I am sure many people appreciate your enthusiasm, and I bet many people have also benefited from some of your insights and contributions over the years (even if you aren't on the pro tour yet).

I hope the negativity is not too disheartening. It seems like you have a good attitude and good perspective concerning some of the negative posts.

Happy Holidays,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>...A little more criticism or praise directed at what is said, and not who says it, would be a nice...
<hr /></blockquote>

That is all I care about. Is the information correct or not? Is there another or better way to do something?

I am here to learn, so appreciate anyone giving tips or correcting/adding to what I have to say. Then I learn.

And if you are a day one beginner, there may be something someone told you which helped you. Please share. It might help someone else.<hr /></blockquote>

Billy_Bob
11-23-2007, 01:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> ...I hope the negativity is not too disheartening...<hr /></blockquote>

No problem for me. I have been dealing with the public for most of my adult life. So I expect it and have learned quite well how to deal with these things.

Also I understand people. I can place myself in their "shoes". With a little kindness and understanding, some of these people can become friends.

One time a guy I knew was very nasty to me. Instead of being nasty back, I just let him vent and let it all out. It turned out he had lost his job and his wife was divorcing him. So no wonder. I gave him all the support he needed. And he has turned out to be my best friend.

So in the spirit of the holidays, perhaps we can all try to get along with each other and also have a bit of understanding for those who may need to "vent" sometimes...

dr_dave
11-23-2007, 01:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> ...I hope the negativity is not too disheartening...<hr /></blockquote>

No problem for me. I have been dealing with the public for most of my adult life. So I expect it and have learned quite well how to deal with these things.

Also I understand people. I can place myself in their "shoes". With a little kindness and understanding, some of these people can become friends.

One time a guy I knew was very nasty to me. Instead of being nasty back, I just let him vent and let it all out. It turned out he had lost his job and his wife was divorcing him. So no wonder. I gave him all the support he needed. And he has turned out to be my best friend.

So in the spirit of the holidays, perhaps we can all try to get along with each other and also have a bit of understanding for those who may need to "vent" sometimes...<hr /></blockquote>Very well stated. I will make it my new-years resolution to get better at being patient and understanding when people need to "vent."

Happy Holidays,
Dave

wolfdancer
11-23-2007, 02:57 PM
A few years back, and another web alias, if you didn't play for money, and posted here...you were subject to derision by the "money" players. They would laugh you off the board if you stated that you just played for the simple enjoyment of playing. I see a similarity between that mentality, and rebuking someone without a "name" for posting anything of an "instructional" nature.
It helps to have a thick skin...and the suggestion about considering "why" the negativity, is a good one.

Eric.
11-26-2007, 11:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> Since you and Eric are two "experts", why don't you post a thread letting us "unqualified" "blowhards" know what it takes to become an "expert" in your opinion(s)? In order to show more maturity, should we run our posts by you in a PM so you can approve them for general posting?
It sounds like our life experiences aren't good enough. It also must therefore be true that anything we've read or been told by what the majority of people would consider to be an expert must also be inadequate. Please elucidate us on what made you an "expert" if it wasn't your experiences and learnings?
Seriously, I would genuinely like to know what kind of qualifications we have to have to make it okay to post anything that may be construed as advice. <hr /></blockquote>

I wasn't going to repsond to this post but I feel like setting the record straight, rather than have "strawman arguments" turn this into something ridiculous.

At no time did I say I am an "expert".

At no time did I say I do not appreciate opinions from " unqualified blowhards".

At no time did I say others opinions are not acceptable.

Waht I DID say or allude to is that I find it highly misleading, self centered and plain obnoxious when those that aren't "experts" go past teh point of offering their opinion, but instead, position themselves as an authority on the topic. Let's not beat around the bush, we ALL know exactly the situation. It goes way beyond offering one's "2 cents".

One of the problems with novices trying to come across as "experts" is that others may be misled by partially correct pontifications. It's self serving and a bit unethical, if you ask me. Again, I'm not talking about just giving a simple opinion, I'm talking about jumping on the soapbox.

Ya know, there might be something called "online persona syndrome". If not, there should be. I was referring to people who say things and take on a persona that they would NEVER do in real life, in front of peers. Is it coincidence that a lot of people behave much differently in real life vs. online?


Eric

wolfdancer
11-26-2007, 12:43 PM
Bill, I can see both sides of this "debate"...and think the issue should never have come up in the first place.
If I offer up some "advice" (and doubt I ever will)...I think most folks here could discern if it's "good" or just BS.
I'd hope then that someone would knock the advice, and not me for posting it.

SKennedy
11-26-2007, 01:42 PM
Real life persona vs that via internet?
Ever see the little guy in the big Dodge pick-up?

I don't know any history here between you 2 guys, but if you come across as an "expert" then you should be one. On the other hand, we are all welcome to our opinions and sharing them with others....right or wrong....and can all learn from each other. Those that "do", or specifically in this case provide information on this forum, are sometimes ridiculed. I agree with Wolf.....attack the info but not the person.

dr_dave
11-26-2007, 02:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr>... we are all welcome to our opinions and sharing them with others....right or wrong....and can all learn from each other. Those that "do", or specifically in this case provide information on this forum, are sometimes ridiculed. I agree with Wolf.....attack the info but not the person.<hr /></blockquote>Excellent advice!

I think Internet forums would be much more civil and productive if participants followed this advice.

I bet you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Regards,
Dave

bsmutz
11-26-2007, 02:54 PM
Steve and Jack have both helped make my point. After numerous posts by Eric., I know (as well as most who have been here for the past couple of years) that one of his biggest "pet peeves" is the possibility that someone may read something that was posted by a non-expert and spend years doing something the wrong way. We also know that this happened to Eric. in his life and that this is probably the catalyst for his continued peevishness. What I can't understand is why he feels that he must continue to belittle anyone that he feels may fit into the category of "posturing as an expert that may not really be an expert", as well as anyone who may try to come to their defense or try to point out to Eric. how ridiculous his continued peevish behavior is.
Now, he is trying to tie this peeve that he has to some type of alter ego, online persona thing that other posters must have like he's an expert in psychology, too. It makes me wonder. What if Eric. doesn't have an online persona and questions anyone in his life who offers advice for their credentials? Can you imagine how much time it could take to make even the smallest decision without finding a qualified expert first? And what if he made this his life's calling, protecting the innocent believers out there by stamping out all bad advice from any source?
As I've said before, I don't think that in the big scheme of things, that anyone is going to be seriously harmed by advice that any "unqualified blowhard" is going to post on this forum. Therefore, I don't think it's necessary that we all have to provide details regarding sources of information that we pass along nor credentials of some sort that act as permissions for us to post advice. I also don't think it is necessary for us to point out our peeves every time they are piqued. For instance, I am peeved by grammatical and spelling errors. I could spend all day correcting posts and not even make a dent in the mountains of errors I see every day. Instead, I choose to acknowledge my peevishness and keep it to myself for the most part. If I find a humorous way to point out an error, I will on occasion use it. However, I realize that there are many diverse personalities using this board and they all have their own way of delivering information and interacting with others. I feel that it is in everyone's best interest to make everyone feel welcome and free to post as long as they abide by the rules of the board. I especially feel strongly that nobody here was born playing pool and we all went through or are going through a learning curve. The curve may be short or it may never end. Where we are on the curve shouldn't have any impact on our freedom to post here. Let's save the personal attacks and insights into each other's psychological motivations for FL, Patrick, and others who can't live within the rules.

SPetty
11-26-2007, 03:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>I just tried out a batting tip that I read, for my break. I like it, but I'd never try to post it here.<hr /></blockquote>And that's a problem. You found something that could help me, but you'd never post it... Because you don't want the ridicule? Because you don't want to be challenged on it? Because you're afraid we may meet in a match one day? Why not share? How can we fix this?

SKennedy
11-26-2007, 03:13 PM
As your own experience and knowledge grows, you become less dependent upon others. Certain people I will rely upon for advice. However, there are others out there whose advice I would never follow. For the most part, I trust my own instincts. They generally have been pretty reliable. I usually regret it when I ignore my instincts....whether at the pool table or at work. We sometimes underestimate our own intuition. We should remember that our "instincts" or, our "intuition," is really made up of all of our experiences and knowledge, recognized or not.

Eric.
11-26-2007, 03:18 PM
Since smutz seems to like to single me out, let me reply directly:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> Steve and Jack have both helped make my point.
<font color="blue">If you reread, it appears that they agree with both sides of the issue. </font color>

After numerous posts by Eric., I know (as well as most who have been here for the past couple of years) that one of his biggest "pet peeves" is the possibility that someone may read something that was posted by a non-expert and spend years doing something the wrong way. We also know that this happened to Eric. in his life and that this is probably the catalyst for his continued peevishness. What I can't understand is why he feels that he must continue to belittle anyone that he feels may fit into the category of "posturing as an expert that may not really be an expert", as well as anyone who may try to come to their defense or try to point out to Eric. how ridiculous his continued peevish behavior is.

<font color="blue">In otherwords, you can't stand when I have an opposing opinion to your lil buddy Billy Bob and are determined to ride me everytime I have an opposing opinon. The PERFECT example of bad/inexperienced advice from Billy Bob (which is some of the stuff I've been saying all along) is the TERRIBLE advice he gave another poster on not usiing/using as little English as possible on all shots. While that might be great advice for rank beginners, that is terrible advice for an advancing student of teh game. I hope that poster knows how to separate the wheat from the chaff.</font color>

Now, he is trying to tie this peeve that he has to some type of alter ego, online persona thing that other posters must have like he's an expert in psychology, too. It makes me wonder. What if Eric. doesn't have an online persona and questions anyone in his life who offers advice for their credentials? Can you imagine how much time it could take to make even the smallest decision without finding a qualified expert first? And what if he made this his life's calling, protecting the innocent believers out there by stamping out all bad advice from any source?

<font color="blue"> Typical of you, mutz. Attack the messenger, not the message. </font color>

As I've said before, I don't think that in the big scheme of things, that anyone is going to be seriously harmed by advice that any "unqualified blowhard" is going to post on this forum. Therefore, I don't think it's necessary that we all have to provide details regarding sources of information that we pass along nor credentials of some sort that act as permissions for us to post advice. I also don't think it is necessary for us to point out our peeves every time they are piqued.
<font color="blue">So, based on your past posts, you are a strong proponent for people's "right" to give their opinions. Does that apply to opinions that aren't in agreement? </font color>

For instance, I am peeved by grammatical and spelling errors. I could spend all day correcting posts and not even make a dent in the mountains of errors I see every day. Instead, I choose to acknowledge my peevishness and keep it to myself for the most part. If I find a humorous way to point out an error, I will on occasion use it. However, I realize that there are many diverse personalities using this board and they all have their own way of delivering information and interacting with others.
<font color="blue"> This is a Pool forum, not English 201. </font color>

I feel that it is in everyone's best interest to make everyone feel welcome and free to post as long as they abide by the rules of the board. I especially feel strongly that nobody here was born playing pool and we all went through or are going through a learning curve. The curve may be short or it may never end. Where we are on the curve shouldn't have any impact on our freedom to post here. Let's save the personal attacks and insights into each other's psychological motivations for FL, Patrick, and others who can't live within the rules.
<font color="blue"> See my previous mention about opposing opinions. </font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

Feel free to critique my spelling and grammar, I don't proof read my brief postings.


Eric

Eric.
11-27-2007, 10:45 AM
Did you make a hit &amp; run berating of me?

I replied to your post that you directed at me, and would love to hear your well thought out response.


Eric

bsmutz
11-27-2007, 01:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> Since smutz seems to like to single me out, let me reply directly:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> Steve and Jack have both helped make my point.
<font color="blue">If you reread, it appears that they agree with both sides of the issue. </font color>
<font color="red"> If you reread, they both said to point out the mistakes in whatever advice is being given. That is what I was referring to. </font color>
After numerous posts by Eric., I know (as well as most who have been here for the past couple of years) that one of his biggest "pet peeves" is the possibility that someone may read something that was posted by a non-expert and spend years doing something the wrong way. We also know that this happened to Eric. in his life and that this is probably the catalyst for his continued peevishness. What I can't understand is why he feels that he must continue to belittle anyone that he feels may fit into the category of "posturing as an expert that may not really be an expert", as well as anyone who may try to come to their defense or try to point out to Eric. how ridiculous his continued peevish behavior is.

<font color="blue">In otherwords, you can't stand when I have an opposing opinion to your lil buddy Billy Bob and are determined to ride me everytime I have an opposing opinon. The PERFECT example of bad/inexperienced advice from Billy Bob (which is some of the stuff I've been saying all along) is the TERRIBLE advice he gave another poster on not usiing/using as little English as possible on all shots. While that might be great advice for rank beginners, that is terrible advice for an advancing student of teh game. I hope that poster knows how to separate the wheat from the chaff.</font color>
<font color="red">Yes, Eric., I can stand anyone who has a different opinion. What I don't like, and apparently there are others who feel the same way, is when someone is belittled for posting whatever it is that they want to say or insinuating that they shouldn't say anything because they aren't an expert in your opinion on the topic that they are discussing or presenting. </font color>
Now, he is trying to tie this peeve that he has to some type of alter ego, online persona thing that other posters must have like he's an expert in psychology, too. It makes me wonder. What if Eric. doesn't have an online persona and questions anyone in his life who offers advice for their credentials? Can you imagine how much time it could take to make even the smallest decision without finding a qualified expert first? And what if he made this his life's calling, protecting the innocent believers out there by stamping out all bad advice from any source?

<font color="blue"> Typical of you, mutz. Attack the messenger, not the message. </font color>
<font color="red"> Hey, you started it. </font color>
As I've said before, I don't think that in the big scheme of things, that anyone is going to be seriously harmed by advice that any "unqualified blowhard" is going to post on this forum. Therefore, I don't think it's necessary that we all have to provide details regarding sources of information that we pass along nor credentials of some sort that act as permissions for us to post advice. I also don't think it is necessary for us to point out our peeves every time they are piqued.
<font color="blue">So, based on your past posts, you are a strong proponent for people's "right" to give their opinions. Does that apply to opinions that aren't in agreement? </font color>
<font color="red"> Again, yes it does. </font color>
For instance, I am peeved by grammatical and spelling errors. I could spend all day correcting posts and not even make a dent in the mountains of errors I see every day. Instead, I choose to acknowledge my peevishness and keep it to myself for the most part. If I find a humorous way to point out an error, I will on occasion use it. However, I realize that there are many diverse personalities using this board and they all have their own way of delivering information and interacting with others.
<font color="blue"> This is a Pool forum, not English 201. </font color>
<font color="red"> It's also not a job interview nor an invitation only gathering of pool experts where one must provide their life history as it relates to pool before they can post. </font color>
I feel that it is in everyone's best interest to make everyone feel welcome and free to post as long as they abide by the rules of the board. I especially feel strongly that nobody here was born playing pool and we all went through or are going through a learning curve. The curve may be short or it may never end. Where we are on the curve shouldn't have any impact on our freedom to post here. Let's save the personal attacks and insights into each other's psychological motivations for FL, Patrick, and others who can't live within the rules.
<font color="blue"> See my previous mention about opposing opinions. </font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

Feel free to critique my spelling and grammar, I don't proof read my brief postings.


Eric <hr /></blockquote>

Eric.
11-27-2007, 01:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> Since smutz seems to like to single me out, let me reply directly:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> Steve and Jack have both helped make my point.
<font color="blue">If you reread, it appears that they agree with both sides of the issue. </font color>
<font color="red"> If you reread, they both said to point out the mistakes in whatever advice is being given. That is what I was referring to. </font color>
<font color="blue">So, you only select the portion that supports your points and use that as vindication? </font color>

After numerous posts by Eric., I know (as well as most who have been here for the past couple of years) that one of his biggest "pet peeves" is the possibility that someone may read something that was posted by a non-expert and spend years doing something the wrong way. We also know that this happened to Eric. in his life and that this is probably the catalyst for his continued peevishness. What I can't understand is why he feels that he must continue to belittle anyone that he feels may fit into the category of "posturing as an expert that may not really be an expert", as well as anyone who may try to come to their defense or try to point out to Eric. how ridiculous his continued peevish behavior is.

<font color="blue">In otherwords, you can't stand when I have an opposing opinion to your lil buddy Billy Bob and are determined to ride me everytime I have an opposing opinon. The PERFECT example of bad/inexperienced advice from Billy Bob (which is some of the stuff I've been saying all along) is the TERRIBLE advice he gave another poster on not usiing/using as little English as possible on all shots. While that might be great advice for rank beginners, that is terrible advice for an advancing student of teh game. I hope that poster knows how to separate the wheat from the chaff.</font color>
<font color="red">Yes, Eric., I can stand anyone who has a different opinion. What I don't like, and apparently there are others who feel the same way, is when someone is belittled for posting whatever it is that they want to say or insinuating that they shouldn't say anything because they aren't an expert in your opinion on the topic that they are discussing or presenting. </font color>
<font color="blue">This is where your own peeving is consuming you. You look to get into it with me. I never belittled anyone. Because someone's feelings might be hurt for being questioned, doesn't equate to belittling. I never had a problem with people posting their opinions. I could see if I was saying someone was an "idiot" for expressing their opinion, but that nvr happenned.

What I did do was to question posts with dubious information and that is waht you have a problem with; the people who present their posts with the insinuation of an "expert's authoritative view". Those posts taht are put out there in an "authoritative" way should be subject to scrutiny, IMO. </font color>

Now, he is trying to tie this peeve that he has to some type of alter ego, online persona thing that other posters must have like he's an expert in psychology, too. It makes me wonder. What if Eric. doesn't have an online persona and questions anyone in his life who offers advice for their credentials? Can you imagine how much time it could take to make even the smallest decision without finding a qualified expert first? And what if he made this his life's calling, protecting the innocent believers out there by stamping out all bad advice from any source?

<font color="blue"> Typical of you, mutz. Attack the messenger, not the message. </font color>
<font color="red"> Hey, you started it. </font color>
<font color="blue"> LMAO! That's real childish. To the best of my memory, all of my posts towards you are after you directed comment towards me. I never sought you out. </font color>

As I've said before, I don't think that in the big scheme of things, that anyone is going to be seriously harmed by advice that any "unqualified blowhard" is going to post on this forum. Therefore, I don't think it's necessary that we all have to provide details regarding sources of information that we pass along nor credentials of some sort that act as permissions for us to post advice. I also don't think it is necessary for us to point out our peeves every time they are piqued.
<font color="blue">So, based on your past posts, you are a strong proponent for people's "right" to give their opinions. Does that apply to opinions that aren't in agreement? </font color>
<font color="red"> Again, yes it does. </font color>
<font color="blue"> Then what is YOUR problem with my posts? </font color>

For instance, I am peeved by grammatical and spelling errors. I could spend all day correcting posts and not even make a dent in the mountains of errors I see every day. Instead, I choose to acknowledge my peevishness and keep it to myself for the most part. If I find a humorous way to point out an error, I will on occasion use it. However, I realize that there are many diverse personalities using this board and they all have their own way of delivering information and interacting with others.
<font color="blue"> This is a Pool forum, not English 201. </font color>
<font color="red"> It's also not a job interview nor a invitation only gathering of pool experts where one must provide their life history as it relates to pool before they can post. </font color>
<font color="blue">Nobody said that, ever. Let's keep things in check with reality? </font color>

I feel that it is in everyone's best interest to make everyone feel welcome and free to post as long as they abide by the rules of the board. I especially feel strongly that nobody here was born playing pool and we all went through or are going through a learning curve. The curve may be short or it may never end. Where we are on the curve shouldn't have any impact on our freedom to post here. Let's save the personal attacks and insights into each other's psychological motivations for FL, Patrick, and others who can't live within the rules.
<font color="blue"> See my previous mention about opposing opinions. </font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

Feel free to critique my spelling and grammar, I don't proof read my brief postings.


Eric <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>