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sharky1317
11-24-2007, 11:55 PM
Anyone have some cool links on english? Video clips preffered. . . .

Billy_Bob
11-25-2007, 10:45 AM
If you want tips on how to use english, the best tip is to *not* use english if you can avoid it!

Other than that, what do you want to know? When to use english? How to use english? ??

sharky1317
11-25-2007, 04:27 PM
Yeah . . .when to use it. It seems that when I try to use any kind of english, I might not follow through or maybe I try to use too much power. . . . . I just want to have great CB control. . . . .Let me know. . . .

av84fun
11-25-2007, 05:53 PM
The use of english is a VERY complex subject that take up whole chapters...and more...in instructional books. You will only get a small taste of what you need to know in any forum...and often, a little knowledge is dangerous.

You should REALLY get the basics from books by Robert Byrne and Jack Koehler. Philip Cappelle also provides a ton of knowlege but his books have typos on nearly every page which just bugs me! He BADLY needs a new proof reader! It shouldn't make any difference as long as the information is there...and it IS...but it still bugs me! (-:

Regards,
Jim

Regards,
Jim

pooltchr
11-25-2007, 06:51 PM
All the books in the world can't match what you can learn from a good instructor. Having someone working with you, demonstrating, watching you perform, and giving you feedback is by far the easiest way to gain an understanding of what different types of spin can do to the cue ball. It's also helpful to make sure your stroke is working properly, since without the stroke, all the knowledge of english isn't going to be real helpful.
Steve

dr_dave
11-25-2007, 10:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sharky1317:</font><hr> Anyone have some cool links on english? Video clips preffered. . . . <hr /></blockquote>You can find lots of advice on how and when to use English here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads.html) under "English." You can find lots of video demonstrations here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/index.html) under "Chapter 4."

Happy reading and viewing,
Dave

Billy_Bob
11-26-2007, 07:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sharky1317:</font><hr> Yeah . . .when to use it...
...I just want to have great CB control...<hr /></blockquote>

First of all, "english" means hitting the left or right side of the cue ball. Hitting the top is called "follow" and hitting the bottom is called "draw" or "stop" or "stun".

Basically english would only be used for when the cue ball hit a rail and you want to change the natural angle the ball will come back off of the rail. Not needed very often actually!

So best advice is to NOT use english at all or rarely. Avoid using english and you will pocket more balls.

There are a ton of problems when using english. One of these is called "squirt" or "cue ball deflection". This is when you hit the cue ball, the tip of the cue makes the cue ball slide to the side a bit. This results in the cue ball going somewhere other than where you were aiming.

Shoot at the far center diamond 10 times. Then do this again using left or right english. Notice that the cue ball is no longer hitting the center diamond, but is probably a half inch or inch off. Not good!

And if hitting an object ball, then the shot will be way off.

There is a way to solve this problem when using a regular cue and it is called "backhand english". Or if using a Predator low deflection cue, you can use "front hand english".

I have a Predator cue with a 314 low deflection shaft (actually I have 3) and I use front hand english. BUT due to other problems associated with using english, I STILL avoid using english unless necessary.

You can do a lot for leaving the cue ball where you want after a shot by just using follow or draw. This is what I use the most. Also speed control or hitting the cue ball at the correct speed so it stops where I want.

For follow, you can hit higher on the cue ball (above center) or lower. Higher up gets you more follow. When you hit with follow, the cue ball continues to roll after it hits the object ball. It can roll just a little. A little more. Or a lot! Depends on how high up on the cue ball you hit. Also how much you follow through. Following through is leaving the tip of your cue a few inches past where the cue ball was after you shoot. Or up to leaving the tip of your cue a foot and a half past where the cue ball was.

Learning follow is easy!

Just place a cue ball at the first diamond next to the long rail. Then the object ball at the second diamond next to the long rail. (about a foot apart and shot pointing toward the far corner pocket.)

Then shoot so the cue ball stops where the object ball was. This is called a stop shot and shooting slightly below center will do the trick. Then shoot a little above center and get the cue ball to roll 1 diamond past where the OB was.

Then get it to roll 2 diamonds past where OB was.

Then 3, 4, 5, etc. Using more follow through and/or hitting higher up on the ball. (Be sure to chalk well before each shot, especially the sides of the tip!)

Then as much follow as you can. As high up on ball as possible and as much follow through as possible. Add speed too. Best to use a closed bridge as this will keep the tip of the cue in contact with the cue ball. For this shot, may need a foot and a half of space between cue ball and object ball. (Need more room with a longer follow through.) I would call this shot a "force follow" or "power follow" shot.

Anyway hit higher/lower on cue ball and see what happens. More/less follow through and see what happens.

Practice everyday. Then you will get to where you can leave the cue ball where the object ball was (stop shot) or follow just a little, more, or a lot.

This comes in *very* handy! If your next shot is near OB, then stop shot. If next shot middle of table, then follow a bit to leave cue ball in middle of table. If next shot at end of table, then more follow to leave cue ball at end of table. Advanced is to get cue ball to roll forward to rail and then come back. (What goes forward will hit a rail and come back.)

Draw shots are a bit more difficult. This is getting the cue ball to roll backwards after a shot by hitting the cue ball below center. Search this forum for draw and you should find tons of information.

The video which helped me the most so far as getting the cue ball to go where I want after a shot is Dr. Dave's "Illustrated Principles of Pool and Billiards" DVD. This showed me things like 30 and 90 degree rules and all sorts of other neat stuff.

I did not understand the 30 and 90 degree rules by reading about it. But seeing it demonstrated made it "click" in my brain. I said "Ahhh Ha! I get it!"

Anyway I saw with this video that I had options with each shot as to where I could send the cue ball after each shot. I could go forwards, backwards, sideways, etc. Just depended on how I hit the cue ball!

Then I learned (by watching the video) to roughly predict what direction the cue ball would go after a shot depending on how I hit it.

Then of course add the right speed and bingo! Cue ball left where you want.

Then once I knew (in my mind) what to do to get the cue ball to go where I wanted after a shot, then I just kept practicing this stuff for several years. Paid attention to where the cue ball went after each shot.

Now I can pretty much leave the cue ball where I want after a shot and pocket my ball. (There was a period where I left the cue ball where I wanted, but did not pocket the ball!)

Now the way to watch instructional pool videos is NOT like a movie. I would suggest watching the entire thing, then play it back to the first shot, then stop it. Go practice that shot that day. Then watch the next shot the next day and practice that, etc. Then you will see the light! (Then just add 2 or 3 years of practice and you are in business.)

Get Dr Dave's DVD here...
http://dr-dave-billiards.com/cd_dvd/dvd_description.html

Deeman3
11-26-2007, 10:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>So best advice is to NOT use english at all or rarely. Avoid using english and you will pocket more balls.

<font color="blue"> This is great advice if you want to remain a very limited pool player with an ability to mearly pocket balls. IMO </font color>

There are a ton of problems when using english. One of these is called "squirt" or "cue ball deflection". This is when you hit the cue ball, the tip of the cue makes the cue ball slide to the side a bit. This results in the cue ball going somewhere other than where you were aiming.

<font color="blue"> Learning this is a part of the development process of any player who will be more than an advanced novice.

If you avoid english or use it as little as possible, you will never undrstand nor be able to apply it in difficult game situations.

I disagree with Billy Bob, you should use it til it hurts or you at least can apply it properly. I would not rely on it in important games until you are confident with it however.

It might be better to say, "don't use unnecessary english." </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

dr_dave
11-26-2007, 10:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>So best advice is to NOT use english at all or rarely. Avoid using english and you will pocket more balls.

<font color="blue"> This is great advice if you want to remain a very limited pool player with an ability to mearly pocket balls. IMO </font color>

There are a ton of problems when using english. One of these is called "squirt" or "cue ball deflection". This is when you hit the cue ball, the tip of the cue makes the cue ball slide to the side a bit. This results in the cue ball going somewhere other than where you were aiming.

<font color="blue"> Learning this is a part of the development process of any player who will be more than an advanced novice.

If you avoid english or use it as little as possible, you will never undrstand nor be able to apply it in difficult game situations.

I disagree with Billy Bob, you should use it til it hurts or you at least can apply it properly. I would not rely on it in important games until you are confident with it however.

It might be better to say, "don't use unnecessary english." </font color><hr /></blockquote><hr /></blockquote>I agree with both of you guys. English should not be used unnecessarily. And when it is used in play, the effects of squirt, swerve, and throw should be understood (consciously, or intuitively from lots of practice).

Regards,
Dave

Billy_Bob
11-26-2007, 11:52 AM
Well actually I think players should hear both points of views. Hear they *should* use english and also hear they *should not*.

Then when they are using english to excess and missing a lot of shots, the "should not" will kick in and give them an idea where the problem lies.

Also with my learning where the cue ball will go after each shot (Dr. Dave's DVD), there came a point where I began to see where the cue ball was going to hit the rail after the shot, then I saw it was going to hit another ball after it came back off the rail, then realized I should put some english on it so it would avoid that ball. Or saw that the cue ball was going to naturally go to the left after hitting a rail and wanted it less that direction, etc. Then I began using english.

But first you need to be able to figure out where the ball is going to go after the shot (Dr. Dave's DVD).

SKennedy
11-26-2007, 02:13 PM
I don't want to get attacked too harshly on here and wish to state that I am certainly no "expert" and the following is just my opinion.....
Aren't "draw" and "follow" also forms of "English?" In my opinion..yes. They both (draw and follow) also impart spin on the ball just like "side" (Left and right)english. Any spin imparted to the cue ball will affect the target ball and the cue ball. Of course, effects vary dependent upon various factors. When learning english, one should start with follow and draw. They are the easiest to learn and use, and are more commonly used in normal play. However, side english is also an important element of the game, especially as your skill level advances. While you can win games against very skilled players without side english, you certainly will improve your ability to win more games if you can execute side english effectively. Granted, I use it many times more than I should, but any skilled player knows that it is an important and necessary part of the game and must be learned if you want to improve. For some of us, it's overuse or incorrect use can get us into trouble, but there are many times when side english really helps....be it when you can't hit the target ball fully where you need to in order to pocket the ball, on certain bank shots and also kick shots, and certainly when it helps in improving your shape. Learn all "english"....draw, follow, and side and it will help improve your game. Would you order a chocolate sundae and ask them to hold the chocolate? Why would you only want to learn part of the game? If you are going to learn it, then by all means learn it all. Sure, it's use may hurt more than it helps at first, but practice and experience should benefit you in the long term. To do otherwise is like teeing off on a long par 5 with a 2-iron.
Most of my problem with "english" is when I use it and did not intend imparting any spin to the cue ball! I'll watch my ball spin like crazy and wonder how that happended when I thought I hit the cue ball dead center!! Other than that, I have personally found that draw is something I can easily do, but have the hardest time controlling. I use more follow than anything and feel very comfortable with it. Recently I have been using more "inside" english on shots, which I have never been comfortable with doing. It has helped me win a few more games lately. I shyed away from it because I didn't like using it, have learned to feel more comfortable with it in the last 6 months, and as a consequence it has helped me win more games.....isn't that what it's all about?

SKennedy
11-26-2007, 02:31 PM
Again, I'm no expert....
I use to think that the harder I hit the ball the more "english" I put on the ball. I learned I could be just as effective with soft hits. Power is not necessary. However, follow-through is very important!! Always follow thru and use whatever speed you need to control the cue ball or to put it where you need it.

dr_dave
11-26-2007, 02:39 PM
I think when most people use the word "English," they are referring to shots with sidespin. A shot with topspin only is a follow shot, and a shot with bottom spin only is a draw shot. Some people refer to these shots as "staying on the vertical centerline" or "vertical plane spin only." If any sidespin is involved, then I think the term "English" is appropriate. For example, "top-left English" is an appropriate name for a "10:30" hit.

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> I don't want to get attacked too harshly on here and wish to state that I am certainly no "expert" and the following is just my opinion.....
Aren't "draw" and "follow" also forms of "English?" In my opinion..yes. They both (draw and follow) also impart spin on the ball just like "side" (Left and right)english. Any spin imparted to the cue ball will affect the target ball and the cue ball. Of course, effects vary dependent upon various factors. When learning english, one should start with follow and draw. They are the easiest to learn and use, and are more commonly used in normal play. However, side english is also an important element of the game, especially as your skill level advances. While you can win games against very skilled players without side english, you certainly will improve your ability to win more games if you can execute side english effectively. Granted, I use it many times more than I should, but any skilled player knows that it is an important and necessary part of the game and must be learned if you want to improve. For some of us, it's overuse or incorrect use can get us into trouble, but there are many times when side english really helps....be it when you can't hit the target ball fully where you need to in order to pocket the ball, on certain bank shots and also kick shots, and certainly when it helps in improving your shape. Learn all "english"....draw, follow, and side and it will help improve your game. Would you order a chocolate sundae and ask them to hold the chocolate? Why would you only want to learn part of the game? If you are going to learn it, then by all means learn it all. Sure, it's use may hurt more than it helps at first, but practice and experience should benefit you in the long term. To do otherwise is like teeing off on a long par 5 with a 2-iron.
Most of my problem with "english" is when I use it and did not intend imparting any spin to the cue ball! I'll watch my ball spin like crazy and wonder how that happended when I thought I hit the cue ball dead center!! Other than that, I have personally found that draw is something I can easily do, but have the hardest time controlling. I use more follow than anything and feel very comfortable with it. Recently I have been using more "inside" english on shots, which I have never been comfortable with doing. It has helped me win a few more games lately. I shyed away from it because I didn't like using it, have learned to feel more comfortable with it in the last 6 months, and as a consequence it has helped me win more games.....isn't that what it's all about?
<hr /></blockquote>

Eric.
11-26-2007, 02:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>So best advice is to NOT use english at all or rarely. Avoid using english and you will pocket more balls.

<font color="blue"> This is great advice if you want to remain a very limited pool player with an ability to mearly pocket balls. IMO </font color>

There are a ton of problems when using english. One of these is called "squirt" or "cue ball deflection". This is when you hit the cue ball, the tip of the cue makes the cue ball slide to the side a bit. This results in the cue ball going somewhere other than where you were aiming.

<font color="blue"> Learning this is a part of the development process of any player who will be more than an advanced novice.

If you avoid english or use it as little as possible, you will never undrstand nor be able to apply it in difficult game situations.

I disagree with Billy Bob, you should use it til it hurts or you at least can apply it properly. I would not rely on it in important games until you are confident with it however.

It might be better to say, "don't use unnecessary english." </font color>

<hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman, I think you nailed it.

I'll just add that using spin at the right time is essential to playing a higher level game. Experience will tell you how much to use and what you can execute reliably.


Eric

dr_dave
11-26-2007, 02:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr>... using spin at the right time is essential to playing a higher level game. Experience will tell you how much to use and what you can execute reliably.<hr /></blockquote>I think those are the two best sentences about English I've ever read on this forum. I don't see how anybody could disagree.

Regards,
Dave

Deeman3
11-26-2007, 02:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr>
I'll just add that using spin at the right time is essential to playing a higher level game. Experience will tell you how much to use and what you can execute reliably.


Eric <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Exactly, you said it! </font color>

dr_dave
11-26-2007, 02:54 PM
Deeman and Eric,

I know both of you guys are experienced players, and both of you have both expressed strong opinions in the past about the value (or lack of value) of low-squirt cues. Please take a look at the thread dealing with low-squirt cues (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=265285&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1) and express your opinions as experienced players.

Thanks,
Dave

SKennedy
11-26-2007, 02:59 PM
I understand. However, follow or draw, even if along the vertical, is still spin. And I always called any spin "english". But this is a minor matter of semantics.
I guess the only real issue is how well one can incorporate it (spin - vertical and/or horizontal) into your game?

Dave you have to remember I'm almost as old as Deeman!!! And in the neck of the woods I grew up in, a "real" man didn't play a "safety" or defensive shot. Scratches resulted in the CB always behind the headline; therefore, when your opponent had only 1 ball remaining behind the headline, you could scratch at will but it was necessary that it appeared "accidental." In other words, you had better hit your target ball before scratching (old southern get your butt kicked house rules). Never heard of 9-ball before I was 20 y/o and there were certainly no "push-outs." Am I advocating that these "rules" were better and wish the good days were back? Absolutely not! In the old days no one in the pool halls (or at least I hadn't) had heard about BCA or APA rules. Today, no matter where you go, most players are familiar with these rules. In spite of the popularity of 8-ball and 9-ball vs one-pocket or straight pool, the game of billiards has come a long ways during my generation and at the same time is very similar to the way it's always been played. It truly is a timeless game.

dr_dave
11-26-2007, 03:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> I understand. However, follow or draw, even if along the vertical, is still spin. And I always called any spin "english".<hr /></blockquote>Fair enough. I have also heard many people use the term "English" to refer to topspin or bottom spin. I was just suggesting that standard usage (written in books, and spoken by instructors) is for "English" to imply side-spin (when not qualified with other words).

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr>I guess the only real issue is how well one can incorporate it (spin - vertical and/or horizontal) into your game?<hr /></blockquote>Amen!

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr>Dave you have to remember I'm almost as old as Deeman!!!<hr /></blockquote>Deeman isn't that old ... or, at least, not too much older than me. Are you saying I'm "old?" If so, bite your tongue. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Regards,
Dave

SKennedy
11-26-2007, 03:36 PM
I don't know how old he is....I just assumed he was older than me, but might be wrong. If your photo is an indication, you are much younger than I. Middle age has come and gone for me several times. I'm at the point now that I honestly can't say I'm middle-age with any hint of truth unless I want to break longevity records.
You look to be in your late 30's. If not and your photo is representative, then you have lived much better than I. However, better is not always as much fun!

dr_dave
11-26-2007, 03:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> I don't know how old he is....I just assumed he was older than me, but might be wrong.<hr /></blockquote>When I met Deeman a few years ago, I would have guessed he was in his early 50s, but I could be way off.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr>If your photo is an indication, you are much younger than I. Middle age has come and gone for me several times. I'm at the point now that I honestly can't say I'm middle-age with any hint of truth unless I want to break longevity records.<hr /></blockquote>Cheers for a long and happy life!

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr>You look to be in your late 30's.<hr /></blockquote>Thank you very much. I'm 43.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr>If not and your photo is representative, then you have lived much better than I. However, better is not always as much fun!<hr /></blockquote>I do have a fairly active lifestyle (lots of biking, running, hiking, skiing, etc.), and I don't overly use abusive substances too often. I'm also lucky to still have hair and not too many of the gray variety yet. I also look younger when I cut my beard off.

Catch you later,
Dave

SKennedy
11-26-2007, 03:56 PM
I'm 52. 53 in May. 1955 was a good model. Figured Deeman a few years my elder based upon comments he has made, etc.
Oh....to be 43 again.....
I use to almost always wear a beard. Until it became mostly gray.
Hey, all that exercise will "kill" ya!

Deeman3
11-26-2007, 04:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Deeman and Eric,

I know both of you guys are experienced players, and both of you have both expressed strong opinions in the past about the value (or lack of value) of low-squirt cues. Please take a look at the thread dealing with low-squirt cues (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=265285&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1) and express your opinions as experienced players.

Thanks,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Dave,

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking me to do here. If you mean do i agree that 50+ percent of players think low deflection cues are better for all players, then I agree that over 50 percent feel that way. I won't argue with the poll data. if you mean there is material I disagree with in the technical explaination of the effects, Nope, it looks o.k. to me.

I still feel deflection is much over rated. I do not feel their introduction has changed the overall nor specific demonstratable ability of people to pocket balls much better than the old garden variety cues we used a few years ago.

So, we all know and agree that deflection is there and cues with less end mass deflect less, on average, than "old style" cues. My position has always been that whil;e that is true, it does not translate into many less missed balls, that consciencously and unconscienously players adjust. Your argument is that having to make less adjustment is better. That may be correct but I don't especially agree it is true. I think, there may be value in the developed ability to make adjustments to changes in deflection, cloth speed, humidity, etc. that can give value to more pronounced adjustment abilities, not more fine turned. for instance.

Being uneducated but half sane, I would agree that reduction of variation in the lab or the engineering environment is mostly good. I just believe it is highly overrated on the actual pool table under game conditions.

I also happen to believe it is an excellent way to market over priced production cues when innovation is a hard thing to hang your advertising hat on.

I say, take the new shafts away from the best players and they will still beat the same old people with the new shafts, set after set, after set. Aside from a warm feeling, this is not changing a lot of people's basic games. The same effort and study put into the way a ball reacts off a rail with all ball speeds, spins and slides, for instance, would yield much more tangible results. IMESHO

I have been wrong before. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif</font color>

Bob_Jewett
11-26-2007, 04:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> I don't want to get attacked too harshly on here and wish to state that I am certainly no "expert" and the following is just my opinion.....
Aren't "draw" and "follow" also forms of "English?" In my opinion..yes. ...
<hr /></blockquote>
OK, but in the opinions of lots of authors, it is better to reserve the word "english" for shots that have side spin. Several factors come in on shots with side spin that are not present for draw and follow and stun. When I write, I try to avoid the word "english" as much as possible exactly because there is no universal agreement on its meaning.

When I see an author say, "high top english" I know that he means "follow" and I should stop reading.

Eric.
11-26-2007, 04:32 PM
Dave, I'll throw my opinion out there, but it's not based on much research.

From my personal experience, trying both types of shafts, they both have their own charactoristics that need to be factored in when shooting a non-centerball hit.

IMO, what is the difference if you compensate 1/8" or 1/16" for squirt? You still have to compensate. Just because you have to compensate "only" 1/16", doesn't necessarily make you more accurate.

Anyway, I'm not the authority, it's just my personal experience.


Eric

SKennedy
11-26-2007, 04:59 PM
Gotcha....thanks for the additional clarification.

dr_dave
11-26-2007, 05:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> I'm 52. 53 in May.<hr /></blockquote>And you call that "old"??? Don't be silly.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr>Hey, all that exercise will "kill" ya!<hr /></blockquote>That statement is more true than you think. I was mountain biking in Moab, Utah recently and took a nasty fall. I went over the handlebars and flew into to rocky down-slope. Luckily, I landed on my helmet and back first (and I was wearing a Camel Back pack), and I slid mostly on my butt (with padded mountain bike pants) after tumbling a few times. I still have scars across my right forearm and both knees, but I was able to get right back on the bike. I feel silly telling this story after what happened to Spiderman, but I think I was at least a lucky as him that I didn't break my neck or back. Pool is much safer.

Regards,
Dave

Jal
11-26-2007, 05:21 PM
If nothing else, this thread will teach you how to construct unassailable tautologies. Thus far we've learned:

- Use english whenever called for.

- Avoid unnecessary english.

And to this we can safely add:

- Always do what's appropriate.

- Never do the wrong thing.

- Speak in truisms if the situation dictates.

I wonder what everyone's arguing about?

Jim

Eric.
11-26-2007, 05:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> If nothing else, this thread will teach you how to construct unassailable tautologies. Thus far we've learned:

- Use english whenever called for.

- Avoid unnecessary english.

And to this we can safely add:

- Always do what's appropriate.

- Never do the wrong thing.

- Speak in truisms if the situation dictates.

I wonder what everyone's arguing about?

Jim <hr /></blockquote>

If only life were this simple...


Eric

Derek
11-26-2007, 05:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> I don't want to get attacked too harshly on here and wish to state that I am certainly no "expert" and the following is just my opinion.....
Aren't "draw" and "follow" also forms of "English?" In my opinion..yes. ...
<hr /></blockquote>
OK, but in the opinions of lots of authors, it is better to reserve the word "english" for shots that have side spin. Several factors come in on shots with side spin that are not present for draw and follow and stun. When I write, I try to avoid the word "english" as much as possible exactly because there is no universal agreement on its meaning.

When I see an author say, "high top english" I know that he means "follow" and I should stop reading. <hr /></blockquote>

I have a friend that was always referring to draw as "suck". Maybe he was implying more than I was reading into it?

dr_dave
11-26-2007, 05:30 PM
Thank you. I quoted and replied in the low-squirt thread (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=265364&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=&amp;PHPSESSID=) to keep everything in one place.

Regards,
Dave
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Deeman and Eric,

I know both of you guys are experienced players, and both of you have both expressed strong opinions in the past about the value (or lack of value) of low-squirt cues. Please take a look at the thread dealing with low-squirt cues (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=265285&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1) and express your opinions as experienced players.

Thanks,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Dave,

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking me to do here. If you mean do i agree that 50+ percent of players think low deflection cues are better for all players, then I agree that over 50 percent feel that way. I won't argue with the poll data. if you mean there is material I disagree with in the technical explaination of the effects, Nope, it looks o.k. to me.

I still feel deflection is much over rated. I do not feel their introduction has changed the overall nor specific demonstratable ability of people to pocket balls much better than the old garden variety cues we used a few years ago.

So, we all know and agree that deflection is there and cues with less end mass deflect less, on average, than "old style" cues. My position has always been that whil;e that is true, it does not translate into many less missed balls, that consciencously and unconscienously players adjust. Your argument is that having to make less adjustment is better. That may be correct but I don't especially agree it is true. I think, there may be value in the developed ability to make adjustments to changes in deflection, cloth speed, humidity, etc. that can give value to more pronounced adjustment abilities, not more fine turned. for instance.

Being uneducated but half sane, I would agree that reduction of variation in the lab or the engineering environment is mostly good. I just believe it is highly overrated on the actual pool table under game conditions.

I also happen to believe it is an excellent way to market over priced production cues when innovation is a hard thing to hang your advertising hat on.

I say, take the new shafts away from the best players and they will still beat the same old people with the new shafts, set after set, after set. Aside from a warm feeling, this is not changing a lot of people's basic games. The same effort and study put into the way a ball reacts off a rail with all ball speeds, spins and slides, for instance, would yield much more tangible results. IMESHO

I have been wrong before. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

dr_dave
11-26-2007, 05:37 PM
Thank you. I quoted and replied in the low-squirt thread (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=265366&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=1) to keep everything in one place.

Regards,
Dave
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> Dave, I'll throw my opinion out there, but it's not based on much research.

From my personal experience, trying both types of shafts, they both have their own charactoristics that need to be factored in when shooting a non-centerball hit.

IMO, what is the difference if you compensate 1/8" or 1/16" for squirt? You still have to compensate. Just because you have to compensate "only" 1/16", doesn't necessarily make you more accurate.

Anyway, I'm not the authority, it's just my personal experience.


Eric <hr /></blockquote>

Derek
11-26-2007, 05:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Deeman and Eric,

I know both of you guys are experienced players, and both of you have both expressed strong opinions in the past about the value (or lack of value) of low-squirt cues. Please take a look at the thread dealing with low-squirt cues (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=265285&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1) and express your opinions as experienced players.

Thanks,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

I have one of the first Showcase Billiards low deflection shafts with a one-inch piece of ebony at the joint area. I was convinced to buy one from a better shooter in the area at the time because it was starting to become a fad. I had some bonus money from work to blow, so I purchased a shaft for my McDermott. I showed it to the fellow who recommended it and we spent the next half-hour examining the deflection from it compared to a normal cue. Something's there.

To be honest, I don't pay attention to it. It's a minimal effect to me at best. I'm perfectly fine switching from that cue to another good normal cue if I must. Maybe I have to unconsciously make some small adjustments, but nothing that I have to shout out loud, "oh yeah, I've got to aim this way now".

If anything, I just enjoy using the shaft because it's an inch longer (how phallic of me to say) and it has some character because it's one of a few (Showcase low-deflection shafts have the hardwood insert internally now versus the exterior appearance of mine).

My impression of Predator cues is they are just well-built cues that a lot of people have now versus the need to have a low-deflection cue.

dr_dave
11-26-2007, 05:45 PM
Thank you. I quoted and replied in the low-squirt thread (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=265369&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=) to keep everything in one place.

Regards,
Dave
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Derek:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Deeman and Eric,

I know both of you guys are experienced players, and both of you have both expressed strong opinions in the past about the value (or lack of value) of low-squirt cues. Please take a look at the thread dealing with low-squirt cues (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=265285&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1) and express your opinions as experienced players.

Thanks,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

I have one of the first Showcase Billiards low deflection shafts with a one-inch piece of ebony at the joint area. I was convinced to buy one from a better shooter in the area at the time because it was starting to become a fad. I had some bonus money from work to blow, so I purchased a shaft for my McDermott. I showed it to the fellow who recommended it and we spent the next half-hour examining the deflection from it compared to a normal cue. Something's there.

To be honest, I don't pay attention to it. It's a minimal effect to me at best. I'm perfectly fine switching from that cue to another good normal cue if I must. Maybe I have to unconsciously make some small adjustments, but nothing that I have to shout out loud, "oh yeah, I've got to aim this way now".

If anything, I just enjoy using the shaft because it's an inch longer (how phallic of me to say) and it has some character because it's one of a few (Showcase low-deflection shafts have the hardwood insert internally now versus the exterior appearance of mine).

My impression of Predator cues is they are just well-built cues that a lot of people have now versus the need to have a low-deflection cue.<hr /></blockquote>

Bob_Jewett
11-26-2007, 05:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Derek:</font><hr> ... I have a friend that was always referring to draw as "suck". Maybe he was implying more than I was reading into it? <hr /></blockquote>
Depends. How good is your draw? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

SKennedy
11-26-2007, 08:20 PM
Sometimes my draw is suck!

Qtec
11-26-2007, 08:50 PM
[ QUOTE ]
However, follow or draw, even if along the vertical, is still spin. <hr /></blockquote> Sure but its not E. Sidespin is E.

Q

Qtec
11-26-2007, 09:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
This is great advice if you want to remain a very limited pool player with an ability to mearly pocket balls. IMO
<hr /></blockquote>

Hi Deeman, I think it all depends on your level. IME many who say they can't use E or have problems with using E ,can't even make the same balls without using E. ie if you can't make 5 out of 10 easy 1/2 ball shots then the chances of making the shot using extreme IE is nil. I mean, if you can't hit your target and you don't know what you are aiming at .................

[ QUOTE ]
If you avoid english or use it as little as possible, you will never undrstand nor be able to apply it in difficult game situations. <hr /></blockquote>

Again, that may be true but you have to see this in context. I think BB is saying "if you want to win games , take less risks and use less E".
I agree, if you want to progress as a player this is totally the wrong way to go BUT for the club player who wants to win the Monday night house tourney, its probably good advice.



Q

pooltchr
11-27-2007, 05:10 AM
Q, I must agree. Working on English before you have developed a consistant repeatable stroke is like trying to learn Algebra before you learn basic math. Without a good solid foundation, it's hard to learn and understand more advanced concepts.
Steve

dr_dave
11-27-2007, 10:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Q, I must agree. Working on English before you have developed a consistant repeatable stroke is like trying to learn Algebra before you learn basic math. Without a good solid foundation, it's hard to learn and understand more advanced concepts.<hr /></blockquote>Agreed. Once a person has decent center-ball alignment, good aim visualization, and a decent stroke, then they can learn about follow and draw and the 90 and 30 degree rules. At that point, they will be able to avoid scratches and play decent position with the cue ball. Then they can begin their process of mastering English to get even better control over the cue ball.

It seems a lot of good players on this forum think people should experiment with English as soon as possible, but I bet most instructors whom often work with less-than-great players would disagree.

Regards,
Dave

SKennedy
11-27-2007, 10:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> [
It seems a lot of good players on this forum think people should experiment with English as soon as possible, but I bet most instructors whom often work with less-than-great players would disagree.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

I don't think any of us suggested experimenting with english ASAP! I certainly didn't anyway. I thought the debate was whether or not to ever learn it? And we said yes since it is part of the game. I would never suggest anyone start to develop english (side spin) until after they have developed draw and follow, and have decent ball speed control....and I'm assuming they can drop balls into the pockets! However, what would it hurt to experiment with it in practice sessions assuming you have some "game?"

Billy_Bob
11-27-2007, 10:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>...It seems a lot of good players on this forum think people should experiment with English as soon as possible...<hr /></blockquote>

There is an old timer in my area who tells beginners to use english for almost every shot. I've watched these players go from making a fair amount of shots to missing every shot and then getting discouraged.

If they ask me for help, I tell them to not use english. I briefly explain why - some of the problems, etc. Then they try not using english and their game gets back to where it was. Then as time goes by, they will begin to sometimes use english, but cautiously.

So I think this is good. They are learning what happens when they use english for every shot, then what happens when they stop using english. Then learn they need to shoot differently when using english.

The best lesson is to learn what is causing the problem. You can't fix something until you know what the problem is. And this has helped me quite a bit. I have learned on the internet that certain shots are prone to have certain problems due to this or that. So when I miss on one of these shots, I understand what is going on. Then I can better work on solving that problem.

dr_dave
11-27-2007, 10:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>It seems a lot of good players on this forum think people should experiment with English as soon as possible, but I bet most instructors whom often work with less-than-great players would disagree.

Regards,
Dave<hr /></blockquote>I don't think any of us suggested experimenting with english ASAP! I certainly didn't anyway. I thought the debate was whether or not to ever learn it? And we said yes since it is part of the game. I would never suggest anyone start to develop english (side spin) until after they have developed draw and follow, and have decent ball speed control....and I'm assuming they can drop balls into the pockets! However, what would it hurt to experiment with it in practice sessions assuming you have some "game?"<hr /></blockquote>OK, maybe my "ASAP" was an exaggeration. I still think a novice player should spend all of their practice time on basic fundamentals (not including English). English introduces too many variables that can be confusing, especially if one's stroke isn't consistent and/or if one's aim isn't good.

Regards,
Dave

Bob_Jewett
11-27-2007, 12:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> ... OK, maybe my "ASAP" was an exaggeration. I still think a novice player should spend all of their practice time on basic fundamentals (not including English). ... <hr /></blockquote>
Well, maybe, but I think that if a student has progressed far enough that he is thinking about how to put the cue ball where he wants rather than put the object ball in the pocket, it is time for him to learn about side spin. At the start of that learning, he needs to understand the problems.

dr_dave
11-27-2007, 01:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> ... OK, maybe my "ASAP" was an exaggeration. I still think a novice player should spend all of their practice time on basic fundamentals (not including English). ... <hr /></blockquote>
Well, maybe, but I think that if a student has progressed far enough that he is thinking about how to put the cue ball where he wants rather than put the object ball in the pocket, it is time for him to learn about side spin. At the start of that learning, he needs to understand the problems. <hr /></blockquote>Well stated!

Dave

SKennedy
11-28-2007, 10:06 AM
I agree with you about a novice player. Now, we just need to define "novice" as it relates to pool players....
How about.....a new or relatively new player who is still learning and incorporating basic fundamentals of the game and has not yet been introduced to "english?" /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Although I no longer consider myself a novice and do use english...maybe too much....I see the negative and unintended effects of english when I fail to make a centerline shot on the cue ball as I intended. Then again, I unintentionally hit a stun shot last night and scratched just as pretty as you please (meant to use some follow). My point? Novice's and many of us don't always hit the cue ball where we intend and we learn the consequences.

Cornerman
11-28-2007, 02:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> If nothing else, this thread will teach you how to construct unassailable tautologies. Thus far we've learned:

- Use english whenever called for.

- Avoid unnecessary english.

And to this we can safely add:

- Always do what's appropriate.

- Never do the wrong thing.

- Speak in truisms if the situation dictates.

I wonder what everyone's arguing about?

Jim <hr /></blockquote> And of course, know your audience so that your response is reader-appropriate.

Fred

sharky1317
12-27-2007, 04:10 PM
WOW. . . .Thanks to everyone for all of the insight. . . But it seems that the discussion got a little off track. . . I am just looking for links or any cool clips to watch. . . .Thanks again to everyone. . . . .

SKennedy
12-27-2007, 06:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> I agree with you about a novice player. Now, we just need to define "novice" as it relates to pool players....
How about.....a new or relatively new player who is still learning and incorporating basic fundamentals of the game and has not yet been introduced to "english?" /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Although I no longer consider myself a novice and do use english...maybe too much....I see the negative and unintended effects of english when I fail to make a centerline shot on the cue ball as I intended. Then again, I unintentionally hit a stun shot last night and scratched just as pretty as you please (meant to use some follow). My point? Novice's and many of us don't always hit the cue ball where we intend and we learn the consequences. <hr /></blockquote>

As you can see in my post above, I followed some when I meant to stop, and I was also inconsistent with my draw. I knew where I wanted to hit the cue ball, and thought I was striking it where I intended. However, after my first lesson with Scott Lee, I learned the problem was with my stroke. My forearm was much too far forward and I was consistently hitting the cue ball about a tip or so higher than I intended. Ain't lessons great? Always wondered why I could follow so dang well, yet inconsistent with draw. And yes, I can draw well...just not consistently.
I've played for years, have used english a long time...am considered a "decent" player, complimented on my stroke (by average players)...yet never realized just how poor my stroke really was.