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killerstroke
12-03-2007, 11:21 AM
Can anyone give me suggestions to help eliminate pockets rejecting balls? It has happened when players have shot medium to hard, not always hard shots.

BigRigTom
12-03-2007, 11:56 AM
If the ball is truly being rejected by the pocket it can be a real problem. Try shooting dead straight into the pocket at break speed and the ball should still drop when it hits the back of the pocket.

If balls hit the back of the pocket and don't go down (bounce back onto the table) you may have to replace the whole pocket or even the whole rail assembly. I have seen this happen a lot on the Oak Brunswick tables at Moorpark Family Billiards in Moorpark, Ca. Those pockets are no longer lined up correctly and I bet when ther are taken apart it will show the rails are damaged underneath.
I had the same problem on an older table which I tried to fix and I finally just got rid of the table it wasn't worth the trouble.

DeadCrab
12-03-2007, 12:44 PM
Connely table?

dr_dave
12-03-2007, 12:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DeadCrab:</font><hr>Connely table? <hr /></blockquote>My Connelly table does reject balls on rare occasion. It happens most often for medium speed straight-on shots directly into the center of the pocket (mostly with the corner pockets). Therefore, I am also interested in useful advice out there.

Dave

Bob_Jewett
12-03-2007, 12:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote killerstroke:</font><hr> Can anyone give me suggestions to help eliminate pockets rejecting balls? It has happened when players have shot medium to hard, not always hard shots. <hr /></blockquote>
It depends on how the ball is getting rejected. The facing might be cupped, or the pocket liner loose and the edge sticking out. Some drop pockets can't take more than three balls before the next might come back out. I've seen wire ball return runners that were like springs in the bottoms of the pockets. Some leather liners are misshapen. Can you describe your problem further?

dr_dave
12-03-2007, 01:21 PM
On my Connelly table, the ball is hitting the back wall of the pocket (the "facing"?) and bouncing straight back (actually, maybe up a little to help it clear the slate ledge/lip/shelf back onto the table). Nothing appears to be "wrong" with the pockets otherwise (e.g., nothing is loose). The back wall of the pocket is just too firm and stiff (and maybe angled up a little).

I've thought about adding some foam to the back wall, but it wouldn't look very nice. If the pocket-ball-rejection happens to an opponent, I just allow the player to put the ball back in the pocket (even though this is not consistent with official rules). This only seems fair since it only happens if the ball is hit perfectly into the heart of the pocket. The cause for the miss is obvious when it happens.

Regards,
Dave
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote killerstroke:</font><hr> Can anyone give me suggestions to help eliminate pockets rejecting balls? It has happened when players have shot medium to hard, not always hard shots. <hr /></blockquote>
It depends on how the ball is getting rejected. The facing might be cupped, or the pocket liner loose and the edge sticking out. Some drop pockets can't take more than three balls before the next might come back out. I've seen wire ball return runners that were like springs in the bottoms of the pockets. Some leather liners are misshapen. Can you describe your problem further? <hr /></blockquote>

bsmutz
12-03-2007, 01:35 PM
I have the same problem on my snooker table. The leather flaps below the part that goes around the iron that the bag is sewn to is fairly stiff and acts like a trampoline when a ball is hit straight into it at a good clip. I've been asking the same question about how to make it not happen without much success. I've also thought about the foam or tacking a strip of cloth or leather so that it hangs in front of the center of the pocket, but haven't wanted to do it for the "looks" reason. I also play them that they count as pocketed balls. It sucks when they pop out unexpectedly and contact other balls that are still on the table. I also get a little flack once in awhile since I'm the one it happens to the most and I'm usually winning. When I remember, I try to soften them up by kneading them with my hand.

wolfdancer
12-03-2007, 01:42 PM
Dr. Dave, most of the rejects are caused by the ball striking the top support bar for the pocket. I'd try to lay a piece of leather over that...less unsightly then a piece of foam, anything to cushion the impact and absorb some energy.
Or, you could hit the OB with "pocket speed", instead of trying to launch it into space... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

dr_dave
12-03-2007, 03:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Dr. Dave, most of the rejects are caused by the ball striking the top support bar for the pocket.<hr /></blockquote>I don't think the ball is hitting that high.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>I'd try to lay a piece of leather over that...less unsightly then a piece of foam, anything to cushion the impact and absorb some energy.<hr /></blockquote>Maybe I'll try that.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>Or, you could hit the OB with "pocket speed", instead of trying to launch it into space... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>Actually, it happens at fairly moderate speeds. I'm not as bad of a hack as you might think. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Dave

DeadCrab
12-03-2007, 04:47 PM
It appears to be a fairly common problem. I have heard of saddle soap and mink oil being used to soften the leather liners, as well as foam weather stripping. Other solutions mentioned here:
http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=240409&amp;Forum=cc b&amp;Words=connelly&amp;Match=Entire%20Phrase&amp;Searchpage= 0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Old=allposts&amp;Main=239874&amp;Search=true#Po st240409

dr_dave
12-03-2007, 05:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DeadCrab:</font><hr>It appears to be a fairly common problem. I have heard of saddle soap and mink oil being used to soften the leather liners, as well as foam weather stripping. Other solutions mentioned here:
http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=240409&amp;Forum=cc b&amp;Words=connelly&amp;Match=Entire%20Phrase&amp;Searchpage= 0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Old=allposts&amp;Main=239874&amp;Search=true#Po st240409
<hr /></blockquote>Thanks for the link. There's lots of good advice there.

Dave

cushioncrawler
12-03-2007, 06:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> I have the same problem on my snooker table. The leather flaps below the part that goes around the iron that the bag is sewn to is fairly stiff and acts like a trampoline when a ball is hit straight into it at a good clip. I've been asking the same question about how to make it not happen without much success. I've also thought about the foam or tacking a strip of cloth or leather so that it hangs in front of the center of the pocket, but haven't wanted to do it for the "looks" reason. I also play them that they count as pocketed balls. It sucks when they pop out unexpectedly and contact other balls that are still on the table. I also get a little flack once in awhile since I'm the one it happens to the most and I'm usually winning. When I remember, I try to soften them up by kneading them with my hand.<hr /></blockquote>It happens a lot on a 12' by 6', but only for the middle pockets, and only for very hard hits, and only when hit dead center from directly out front, and only when the OB jumps due to screw or follow on qball, never for a stun shot. The OB hits the leather on the brass, then hits the slate, then back up into the leather, then back onto the table. Dont know how to fix thingz here eezyly -- but obviously u shood uze stun if it iz money ball. madMac.

bsmutz
12-03-2007, 07:44 PM
On my table, the ball hits the back of the pocket below the iron and jumps right back onto the table without hitting anything else. It has to be a dead center shot and has to have some speed. Some pockets are worse than others, but I think I've seen all of them do it. I think I'm going to try stapling or gluing a "skirt" of black leather there to see what happens.

strokeless
12-03-2007, 07:53 PM
try to put a strip of color matching velcro.
use the side that is soft.

killerstroke
12-03-2007, 10:43 PM
Thanks for all the interest. The pockets we have are very solid with no play in the back liner and I suspect that is the problem. It sounds like Dr. Dave and I have the same problem. The back liner doeshave a lip on the top edge that points up and toward the table. Does this play into the problem?

Derek
12-04-2007, 10:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote DeadCrab:</font><hr>Connely table? <hr /></blockquote>My Connelly table does reject balls on rare occasion. It happens most often for medium speed straight-on shots directly into the center of the pocket (mostly with the corner pockets). Therefore, I am also interested in useful advice out there.

Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Hold the presses!! Dr. Dave, I recommend just taking a ballpen hammer and smack the inside of the pockets on the liner. Use a rag if you are concerned about the hammer leaving any markings (I didn't use a rag, going maybe for a rustic look, but the hammer really didn't alter the appearance of the pocket).

My new Connelly had the same issues. Frustrating, to say the least. I ended up calling Showcase Billiards (Clay, the owner) and he told me to use the hammer. Since then, I've maybe had a handful of balls pop out on any type of speed shot. And when it does happen, I just use the hammer a little more on that liner.

The hammer does not affect the pocket/rail alignment, so don't have any concerns about that. Just don't go gung-ho about and start smacking the slate or the pocket brace on top.

I also like the saddle soap/mink oil idea, but have not tried it. Connelly claims you don't have to do this, but they also are not forthcoming that their table/pocket design is notorious for coughing up balls.

bradb
12-04-2007, 11:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote killerstroke:</font><hr> Can anyone give me suggestions to help eliminate pockets rejecting balls? It has happened when players have shot medium to hard, not always hard shots. <hr /></blockquote>

My table (Canada billiards) did that when it was new and the leather was stiff. However I still find that if I hit it hard with a lot of back spin it will come back up on the surface because when it rebounds it climbs up over the lip from the spin.

As noted by the other replies it could be anything depending on your particular circumstance. -Brad

av84fun
12-04-2007, 01:58 PM
you might consider affixing the "fuzzy" version of Velcro that you should be able to find in whatever color your pockets are.

the adhesive is not THAT strong so if it doesn't work, you can easily remove it without damaging the pocket.

If it DOES work, then you could put some super glue on the adhesive side of the Velcro tape and make the installation permanent.
Regards,
Jim

dr_dave
12-04-2007, 02:08 PM
Thanks. That's good info.

Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Derek:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote DeadCrab:</font><hr>Connely table? <hr /></blockquote>My Connelly table does reject balls on rare occasion. It happens most often for medium speed straight-on shots directly into the center of the pocket (mostly with the corner pockets). Therefore, I am also interested in useful advice out there.

Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Hold the presses!! Dr. Dave, I recommend just taking a ballpen hammer and smack the inside of the pockets on the liner. Use a rag if you are concerned about the hammer leaving any markings (I didn't use a rag, going maybe for a rustic look, but the hammer really didn't alter the appearance of the pocket).

My new Connelly had the same issues. Frustrating, to say the least. I ended up calling Showcase Billiards (Clay, the owner) and he told me to use the hammer. Since then, I've maybe had a handful of balls pop out on any type of speed shot. And when it does happen, I just use the hammer a little more on that liner.

The hammer does not affect the pocket/rail alignment, so don't have any concerns about that. Just don't go gung-ho about and start smacking the slate or the pocket brace on top.

I also like the saddle soap/mink oil idea, but have not tried it. Connelly claims you don't have to do this, but they also are not forthcoming that their table/pocket design is notorious for coughing up balls. <hr /></blockquote>

Rackum_n_Crackum
12-04-2007, 02:41 PM
Hmmmmm, maybe it's time to put the "hammer" away and hit with some finesse (J/K) /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

dr_dave
12-04-2007, 02:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rackum_n_Crackum:</font><hr> Hmmmmm, maybe it's time to put the "hammer" away and hit with some finesse (J/K) /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>Actually, the Connelly pocket rejection can occur at quite modest speeds. Obviously, if you use pocket speed (which you can't always do, for position), it never happens.

Regards,
Dave

wolfdancer
12-04-2007, 03:25 PM
A couple of my own corner pockets will reject hard hit balls....out here in the tournaments I play in, the ball is considered pocketed if that occurs.
"Spring loaded" pockets would be a cure for this???
On a table at the room in SF, the pockets would reject any hard hit ball....in that case though it was the angle of the cushion facings....which Ernesto corrected with a little skillful redesign.
Hey, what's even worse then a pocket rejecting your shot....is a golf cup that rejects your hole-in-one shot. Saw this happen once to my friend.
Wonder what is rarer...the hole in one, which took me some 35 yrs to accomplish, or the perfect "300" game....which requires both 10 perfect shots, and some corner pin cooperation?
A WNY man held the 3 game total record for many years....887 by Allie Brandt, if I remember correctly...I just looked it up, and there are now ten perfect 900 series on record.

wolfdancer
12-04-2007, 03:30 PM
There's been a few tables that I've played on, and would have liked to have taken a hammer to, preferably a sheetrock hammer....
http://media.incomsupply.com/products/301140.gif

BigRigTom
12-04-2007, 04:28 PM
I suggest everyone who has not already done so...take a close look at the back of the pockets on any Brunswick Gold Crown. The back of the rubber pocket liner is designed to direct the ball downward into the pocket. You don't have this on any wood table with the leather pockets. That piece of metal that is use as the frame of the pocket is just not shape correctly and some tables are just plain made wrong all together to begin with.

Wally_in_Cincy
12-08-2007, 01:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Derek:</font><hr> Connelly claims you don't have to do this, but they also are not forthcoming that their table/pocket design is notorious for coughing up balls. <hr /></blockquote>

I remember Melissa Herndon having a terrible tournament a couple of years ago due to the Connelly tables they were playing on and the ensuing difficulties.

jjinfla
12-08-2007, 08:59 PM
We have 6 Connelly tables installed here and they were rejecting the balls. The pockets that came with the tables were cheaper one made of pleather and when you rubbed the top of the pocket with the cue while stroking it would scuff the pocket.

Anyway, we got them to change all the pockets (24) to the upgraded model and now they work fine.

Connelly should eliminate their bottom of the line pockets.

Jake

Cornerman
12-09-2007, 07:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote DeadCrab:</font><hr>Connely table? <hr /></blockquote>My Connelly table does reject balls on rare occasion. It happens most often for medium speed straight-on shots directly into the center of the pocket (mostly with the corner pockets). Therefore, I am also interested in useful advice out there.

Dave <hr /></blockquote>Two problems usually with Connellys.

1. The leather apron that hangs down is too stiff. It need to be softened or broken in.

2. Certain Connely pockets have their pocket iron set too low. That's probably why they put that apron there in the first place. Other than changing the pocket, the best sway is to line the pocket iron with something compressable like felt covered foam pieces.

These are problems with high-end Connellys as well as other furniture style tables of other makes.

Fred

scaramouche
12-09-2007, 02:26 PM
Have a table that was rejecting balls, some pockets worse than others.

It has just been overhauled new rails, new artimis cushions, new cloth and the pockets reinstalled - properly.

Basically, the pocket irons were not mounted high enough. Balls would hit the iron and bounce back. Now the iron is hit above the centre of the ball so the ball is defected down into the pocket. The balls stay down.

Problem fixed.

BigRigTom
12-10-2007, 11:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote scaramouche:</font><hr> Have a table that was rejecting balls, some pockets worse than others.

It has just been overhauled new rails, new artimis cushions, new cloth and the pockets reinstalled - properly.

Basically, the pocket irons were not mounted high enough. Balls would hit the iron and bounce back. Now the iron is hit above the centre of the ball so the ball is defected down into the pocket. The balls stay down.

Problem fixed. <hr /></blockquote>

This achieves the same result that is achieved by the shape of the back of the rubber pocket liners on a Gold Crown III.
The back of the pocket should deflect the ball downward into the pocket and when this is done the ball will not bounce back onto the table.

KellyStick
12-10-2007, 11:33 AM
Right or wrong I took an exacto knife early on and made some strategic leather loosening slits on a few of my Olhausen pockets. The point was to loosen up the leather tension so there would be no springy rebound from tight leather like trampoline. I have no problems and the leather is tough such that it is not continuing to tear or what have you. I suspect the hammer approach does a similar thing by stretching the leather to remove the tight trampoline affect. I would be afraid of hitting the slate personally and wonder what else is stretching or bending with each hammer hit. Maybe instead you good hammer balls into the pocket real hard until it stops (get's stretched out). I wouldn't do that but some people who like to massacre the ball might enjoy it.

bradb
12-13-2007, 04:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote killerstroke:</font><hr> Can anyone give me suggestions to help eliminate pockets rejecting balls? It has happened when players have shot medium to hard, not always hard shots. <hr /></blockquote>

I was just watching the 2007 9 ball championship between Reyes and a Polish player. They both had the same pocket reject a ball in succession. I watched it in slow motion and it appeared both balls were hit exactly dead center into the pocket with back spin. Looks like it can happen on any table with any player!

-brad

New2Pool
12-14-2007, 08:19 AM
I am new to the game of pool. I bought a nice used pool table. I have been playing a lot but almost always on my own table. I don't have problems with the pocket rejecting a ball but I do have very "tight" pockets. The pockets are 4 1/2 inches wide and if the ball is hit medium hard or hard it will almost always rattle out of the pocket.

Is this normal? I don't have a problem with keeping the speed down and making the shot except for when I want to hit a harder shot to leave myself better shape.

Thanks in advance

Derek
12-14-2007, 11:46 AM
Speed control first. You can learn to drill pockets later. Took me a good year to feel comfortable with my 4.5" pockets. The balls can definitely rattle easier, but there is a sweet spot to hit, it just requires more precision. The tight pockets will benefit your game.

For me, the side pockets on a cut shot are more precarious, almost to the extent where they play like a bar box side pocket.

dr_dave
12-14-2007, 12:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote New2Pool:</font><hr> I am new to the game of pool. I bought a nice used pool table. I have been playing a lot but almost always on my own table. I don't have problems with the pocket rejecting a ball but I do have very "tight" pockets. The pockets are 4 1/2 inches wide and if the ball is hit medium hard or hard it will almost always rattle out of the pocket.

Is this normal? I don't have a problem with keeping the speed down and making the shot except for when I want to hit a harder shot to leave myself better shape.<hr /></blockquote>FYI, I have some articles and online videos that illustrate and explain how and when rattle occurs. I also provide advice on how to prevent it is some situations. See my November '04 through January '05 articles (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/index.html) for more info.

Regards,
Dave

New2Pool
12-14-2007, 12:27 PM
Thanks for all the info. I didn't have the problem a large percentage of the time until recently. When I first started I missed bad enough, often enough that the few shots that rattled in the pocket were no big deal. Recently I have gotten where I can usually make the easy shots so I have started practicing on leaving the cue ball where I will have more easy shots. Unfortunately, it seems like a lot of my shots are rattling out now.

Oh well, it is still fun and I can see improvement so that is what counts most. I actually ran a rack at 9 ball last week. That was a first and I was playing a friend at a bar so that made it even better. Hopefully it will not be another 6 months before I can do it again.