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dr_dave
12-05-2007, 11:25 AM
When one uses English, one's aim must be adjusted (either consciously or subconsciously) for squirt, swerve, and changes in throw. Here are some observations about the different effects:

- The amount of squirt depends on the cue and the amount of tip offset.

- The amount of swerve depends on cue elevation, shot speed, shot distance, and ball and cloth conditions.

- The amount of throw depends on cut angle, shot speed, the amount and type of English and spin, and ball conditions.

- For certain shots, it is possible for squirt to cancel the effects of swerve and/or throw, but it is difficult to judge this.

- For fast and short shots (especially with clean, polished balls on a slick cloth), the effects of swerve can be very small.

- For clean and polished balls, the effects of throw can be reduced.

Now for some questions:

- If a zero-squirt cue were available, would you want one?

- If a cue had twice as much squirt as a typical medium-squirt cue, do you think it would be difficult to play well with it, even after a long adjustment period?

- When you aim shots with English, do you adjust your shot speed and/or bridge length to help you compensate for squirt and swerve?

I'm looking forward to your answers and comments.

Regards,
Dave

mikepage
12-05-2007, 11:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>[...]
- If a zero-squirt cue were available, would you want one?<hr /></blockquote>

I'm equivocal on this one--maybe.
[ QUOTE ]

- If a cue had twice as much squirt as a typical medium-squirt cue, do you think it would difficult to play well with it, even after a long adjustment period?
<hr /></blockquote>

Yes and yes.

[ QUOTE ]
- When you aim shots with English, do you adjust your shot speed and/or bridge length to help you compensate for squirt and swerve?<hr /></blockquote>

shot-speed for swerve, yes frequently. Bridge length for squirt occasionally.

TennesseeJoe
12-05-2007, 11:52 AM
One question that bothers me is: Does the amount and type of chalk effect the amount of squirt?

randyg
12-05-2007, 11:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> When one uses English, one's aim must be adjusted (either consciously or subconsciously) for squirt, swerve, and changes in throw. Here are some observations about the different effects:

- The amount of squirt depends on the cue and the amount of tip offset.

- The amount of swerve depends on cue elevation, shot speed, shot distance, and ball and cloth conditions.

- The amount of throw depends on cut angle, shot speed, the amount and type of English and spin, and ball conditions.

- For certain shots, it is possible for squirt to cancel the effects of swerve and/or throw, but it is difficult to judge this.

- For fast and short shots (especially with clean, polished balls on a slick cloth), the effects of swerve can be very small.

- For clean and polished balls, the effects of throw can be reduced.

Now for some questions:

- If a zero-squirt cue were available, would you want one?

- If a cue had twice as much squirt as a typical medium-squirt cue, do you think it would difficult to play well with it, even after a long adjustment period?

- When you aim shots with English, do you adjust your shot speed and/or bridge length to help you compensate for squirt and swerve?

I'm looking forward to your answers and comments.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Dave, how was the ski trip?

I have a question. I thought that the "terms" squirt &amp; deflection refer to cueball and cue stick. You refer to a low squirt cue stick. Don't you mean low deflection cue stick???? The stick deflects and the cueball squirts.

How about clearing this up for me in your opinion.....thanks, randyg

Billy_Bob
12-05-2007, 12:16 PM
- If a zero-squirt cue were available, would you want one?

No, I have a system for using my current Predator cue (FHE) and I am used to shooting with it. I don't want to change anything. (If it works, don't fix it!)

- If a cue had twice as much squirt as a typical medium-squirt cue, do you think it would be difficult to play well with it, even after a long adjustment period?

I would imagine that it would take just as long to learn to use this cue (without knowing about backhand english or front hand english) as it takes players currently to learn to use a regular cue. Over time they learn how much to adjust their aim when using english and maybe to not use english on long shots as I have heard some of them say. I suppose you could make a cue like this by sticking a heavy metal bar on the end of a cue and gluing on a tip?

- When you aim shots with English, do you adjust your shot speed and/or bridge length to help you compensate for squirt and swerve?

No, I adjust my aim, but only for swerve and throw or reduced throw if outside english and a cut shot.

Or I use swerve to advantage. The other night I had a long shot which was partially blocked, OB hanging in corner. So I shot a slow shot with a lot of english and the ball curved around the blocking ball. My opponent (who left me with this shot) had a surprised look on his face. He said "I thought that shot could not be made! I thought it was blocked!" I said "It couldn't. It was blocked! I made the ball curve around the blocking ball." (I also shot down on the ball, so maybe a bit of masse' too?)

Jal
12-05-2007, 12:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>If a zero-squirt cue were available, would you want one?<hr /></blockquote>Absolutely, presuming I was willing to re-learn the adjusments. It seems to me that the two best situations are having the pivot point at infinity or at the bridge hand.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>If a cue had twice as much squirt as a typical medium-squirt cue, do you think it would be difficult to play well with it, even after a long adjustment period?<hr /></blockquote>It would be more difficult than a medium squirt cue, unless that put the pivot point at the bridge. I'm not sure it's been resolved as to just where the pivot points are located for various cue types.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>When you aim shots with English, do you adjust your shot speed and/or bridge length to help you compensate for squirt and swerve?<hr /></blockquote>I definitely don't adjust bridge length, but not for a well-thought out reason. As far as speed, it's hard to say. I think I try to "blend" squirt and swerve, to use Cornerman's term, so that they mutually cancel, more or less. But there's not much point in using english if you don't also use the correct speed for position.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I'm looking forward to your answers and comments.<hr /></blockquote>Mine too? What about you?

Jim

dr_dave
12-05-2007, 01:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TennesseeJoe:</font><hr> One question that bothers me is: Does the amount and type of chalk effect the amount of squirt?<hr /></blockquote>I think the amount and type of chalk generally have no effect on the amount of squirt, as long as there is no miscue.

Dave

dr_dave
12-05-2007, 02:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr>Hi Dave, how was the ski trip?<hr /></blockquote>The snow wasn't very good last week, but things are reported to be much better this week. Should I expect you out for a skiing trip anytime soon?
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr>I have a question. I thought that the "terms" squirt &amp; deflection refer to cueball and cue stick. You refer to a low squirt cue stick. Don't you mean low deflection cue stick???? The stick deflects and the cueball squirts.<hr /></blockquote>Check out this previous posting (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=229836&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=1) on this topic. I've also quoted it below. I prefer the phrase "low-squirt" because a "low-squirt" shaft actually has large ("high") cue-tip deflection. A "low-squirt" shaft produces less squirt angle (i.e., the cue ball squirts less with a "low-squirt" shaft). The focus is on what the CB does.

Regards,
Dave
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote walt8880:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> It's incorrect to refer to the shafts as "low deflection." In fact, low squirt shafts deflect off the cue ball more than high squirt shafts. It is better to use the term "squirt" which you may not like, but it is unambiguous. <hr /></blockquote>Correct you are Bob. I think a lot of people say the words "low deflection" without understanding what is really going on. Actually it is a "high deflection" shaft which results in lower deflection or squirt of the cue ball. These shafts whip like a wet noodle and people call them "low deflection" shafts.<hr /></blockquote>Good description. Here's my summary:

"low deflection shaft" =
"low cue ball deflection shaft" =
"low squirt shaft" =
"low end-mass" shaft =
flexible (AKA "whippy", compliant, not stiff, "like a wet noodle") shaft end =
large cue shaft flex (i.e., "high deflection" /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif of cue tip) with an off-center hit

Like Bob, I also prefer the term "squirt" over "cue ball deflection." I certainly prefer "low squirt cue" over "low deflection cue" (because of the ambiguous meaning of "deflection"). I also prefer "small" instead of "low" because that can also be ambiguous. Although, as Fran points out, it's not easy to change the terminology people use when it is so ingrained. As long as people are clear, it really doesn't matter. When I hear "low deflection cue," I just assume the implication is "small squirt shaft."<hr /></blockquote>

dr_dave
12-05-2007, 02:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mikepage:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>When you aim shots with English, do you adjust your shot speed and/or bridge length to help you compensate for squirt and swerve?<hr /></blockquote>
shot-speed for swerve, yes frequently. ...<hr /></blockquote>Are you referring to shots where you are using swerve to your advantage (e.g., to curve a small amount around an obstacle ball)? Obviously, with these shots, cue elevation and speed are critical.

I was thinking of normal shots where English and speed are being used to achieve desired position. Will you change speed on these shots to compensate for swerve even if it sacrifices on position a little?

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
12-05-2007, 02:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>- When you aim shots with English, do you adjust your shot speed and/or bridge length to help you compensate for squirt and swerve?

No, I adjust my aim, but only for swerve and throw or reduced throw if outside english and a cut shot.

Or I use swerve to advantage. The other night I had a long shot which was partially blocked, OB hanging in corner. So I shot a slow shot with a lot of english and the ball curved around the blocking ball. My opponent (who left me with this shot) had a surprised look on his face. He said "I thought that shot could not be made! I thought it was blocked!" I said "It couldn't. It was blocked! I made the ball curve around the blocking ball." (I also shot down on the ball, so maybe a bit of masse' too?)<hr /></blockquote>What I was wondering is if people adjust their shot speed to compensate for swerve on a unblocked shot with English.

However, thanks for pointing out how to use swerve to your advantage. Obviously, as with masse', both cue elevation and speed are critical with these types of shots.

Regards,
Dave

mikepage
12-05-2007, 02:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote mikepage:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>When you aim shots with English, do you adjust your shot speed and/or bridge length to help you compensate for squirt and swerve?<hr /></blockquote>
shot-speed for swerve, yes frequently. ...<hr /></blockquote>Are you referring to shots where you are using swerve to your advantage (e.g., to curve a small amount around an obstacle ball)? Obviously, with these shots, cue elevation and speed are critical.

I was thinking of normal shots where English and speed are being used to achieve desired position. Will you change speed on these shots to compensate for swerve even if it sacrifices on position a little?

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Well I'd say yes to both of the above. But I was actually thinking of using speed to reduce swerve even without sacrificing position, as in using drag to hit a long sidespin shot with a little more speed even if you want the cueball to roll slowly into the object ball.

dr_dave
12-05-2007, 02:54 PM
Jal,

Since you asked, I've added my comments and answers below.

Dave
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>If a zero-squirt cue were available, would you want one?<hr /></blockquote>Absolutely, presuming I was willing to re-learn the adjusments. It seems to me that the two best situations are having the pivot point at infinity or at the bridge hand.<hr /></blockquote>I would much prefer to have zero squirt on every shot. One problem with relying on pivot-point aim-and-pivot squirt compensation is you don't always have complete control over bridge length. Also, the effects of swerve and throw are not easily dealt with in aim-and-pivot methods for all types of shots. With a zero-squirt shaft, there would be no need to compensate for squirt (i.e., aim-and-pivot squirt compensation would no longer be required).

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>If a cue had twice as much squirt as a typical medium-squirt cue, do you think it would be difficult to play well with it, even after a long adjustment period?<hr /></blockquote>It would be more difficult than a medium squirt cue, unless that put the pivot point at the bridge. I'm not sure it's been resolved as to just where the pivot points are located for various cue types.<hr /></blockquote>I was thinking the natural pivot length for the hypothetical high-squirt cue would be too short to be comfortable for BHE aim compensation. I personally would not like a cue with such high squirt. To me, it would be too disconcerting to see the CB head in a direction so different from my cue aiming line.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>When you aim shots with English, do you adjust your shot speed and/or bridge length to help you compensate for squirt and swerve?<hr /></blockquote>I definitely don't adjust bridge length, but not for a well-thought out reason. As far as speed, it's hard to say. I think I try to "blend" squirt and swerve, to use Cornerman's term, so that they mutually cancel, more or less. But there's not much point in using english if you don't also use the correct speed for position.<hr /></blockquote>I agree with your last sentence. When I use English, it is usually because I am trying to achieve a desired CB position on the next shot. In these cases, shot speed is usually critical to achieving that position. Therefore, I don't want to change my desired speed just to compensate for swerve. I compensate my aim for swerve instead, based on intuition of the effects of shot speed, shot distance, cue elevation, and ball/table condition. I admit that I still need much improvement in my "intuition."

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
12-05-2007, 02:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mikepage:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote mikepage:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>When you aim shots with English, do you adjust your shot speed and/or bridge length to help you compensate for squirt and swerve?<hr /></blockquote>
shot-speed for swerve, yes frequently. ...<hr /></blockquote>Are you referring to shots where you are using swerve to your advantage (e.g., to curve a small amount around an obstacle ball)? Obviously, with these shots, cue elevation and speed are critical.

I was thinking of normal shots where English and speed are being used to achieve desired position. Will you change speed on these shots to compensate for swerve even if it sacrifices on position a little?

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Well I'd say yes to both of the above. But I was actually thinking of using speed to reduce swerve even without sacrificing position, as in using drag to hit a long sidespin shot with a little more speed even if you want the cueball to roll slowly into the object ball.<hr /></blockquote>Thank you for clarifying.

Regards,
Dave

Deeman3
12-05-2007, 03:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>
- If a zero-squirt cue were available, would you want one?

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Yes, because it would change the laws of physics as we know them and given the opportunity to have something, that in my opinion, is impossible, would be neat. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color> I want mine in a teal green....

wolfdancer
12-05-2007, 03:50 PM
Sounds like a pique shot to me, or semi-masse. While I respect the equipment too much, to attempt a masse, without a masse cue...that shot comes in pretty handy
.....and here's everybody's favorite, demonstrating a pique draw.....(He can play some)I'd consider taking lessons from FL, if he was local.
web page (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwBzYRw2420)
Eric Yow also has some good pique shots on youtube

dr_dave
12-05-2007, 04:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>- If a zero-squirt cue were available, would you want one?<hr /></blockquote><font color="blue"> Yes, because it would change the laws of physics as we know them and given the opportunity to have something, that in my opinion, is impossible, would be neat. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I want mine in a teal green.... </font color> <hr /></blockquote>I'm with you on this one; although I would prefer metallic blue covered with Greek letters and equations (e.g., E = mc^2).

Regards,
Dave

wolfdancer
12-05-2007, 05:10 PM
I'm now convinced.......pool is rocket science!!!