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Joel
12-08-2007, 12:54 PM
Is this a foul ?
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To play a safe and avoid a double hit, a good trick is to softly hit the cueball from below center...using the bridge hand as a fulcrum and drooping the butt to send the cue tip up, sending the cue ball forward. This seems to be accepted as legal.

Suppose the cueball and object ball are too far to reach with a normal grip...this is the question:

Can you lay the cue flat on the table, then perform the above safety shot by picking up the ferrule, causing the tip to hit the cueball from below center and sending the cueball forward (a small distance) ?

To me this seems both illegal and ridiculous, but its hard to find the correct rule, best I find is 1.3 "may not use equipment in a manner other than intended", and 2.15 inappropriate use of equipment.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Joel

bsmutz
12-08-2007, 01:33 PM
You have to use a forward stroke, so based on what I've read on forums such as this one, it is illegal. If my memory is correct, Bob Jewett, a major player in the area of world standardized rules, said this was illegal in at least one post before this one. I don't know Bob nor am I a rules expert, so you may want to check back for a more definitive answer.
It's definitely a nifty shot, IMO.

Sid_Vicious
12-08-2007, 02:21 PM
I had just that very technique called in the favor of my opponent, judged by a BCA ref. I automatically called it a foul since the CB went forward through the path of the OB's resting position, and yet the call was that it was a good hit. I'm still pissed today that the rules aren't simple...CB travels forward and thu the OB's path(less than a chalk's width seperation), it's a foul. I lost that battle. sid

randyg
12-08-2007, 04:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> I had just that very technique called in the favor of my opponent, judged by a BCA ref. I automatically called it a foul since the CB went forward through the path of the OB's resting position, and yet the call was that it was a good hit. I'm still pissed today that the rules aren't simple...CB travels forward and thu the OB's path(less than a chalk's width seperation), it's a foul. I lost that battle. sid <hr /></blockquote>

SID: Re-read the BCA Rules. Probably was a good hit...randyg

randyg
12-08-2007, 04:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Joel:</font><hr> Is this a foul ?
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To play a safe and avoid a double hit, a good trick is to softly hit the cueball from below center...using the bridge hand as a fulcrum and drooping the butt to send the cue tip up, sending the cue ball forward. This seems to be accepted as legal.

Suppose the cueball and object ball are too far to reach with a normal grip...this is the question:

Can you lay the cue flat on the table, then perform the above safety shot by picking up the ferrule, causing the tip to hit the cueball from below center and sending the cueball forward (a small distance) ?

To me this seems both illegal and ridiculous, but its hard to find the correct rule, best I find is 1.3 "may not use equipment in a manner other than intended", and 2.15 inappropriate use of equipment.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Joel <hr /></blockquote>

JOEL: Under the new BCA Pool Leagues Rules...YES....randyg

Sid_Vicious
12-08-2007, 06:33 PM
Now Randy, you know I can't read /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif Seriously though, why do the rule makers complicate issues with this skew on the "less than a chalk's distance" and forward motion on the CB. It's not like we don't have ANYMORE to b!tch about in calls, nor more to call a judge to watch. Keep it simple as my mentor would say. jm2c...sid

Joel
12-08-2007, 06:44 PM
Randy,

The new bca pool league rules do mention this and call it illegal. rule 1.18, diagram 5 shows the exact shot.

what i cant find is any mention in standard bca rules. other than inapropriate use of equpment.

The question is really 2...

1-is it legal to lay your cue on the table and then make a stroke by picking up the ferule?
2-is the bottom up stroke on the cueball legal?

thanks,

joel

randyg
12-08-2007, 07:15 PM
Not under the new BCA Pool League Rules. Foul.

I don't know what the BCA Rule book says.....randyg

Bob_Jewett
12-10-2007, 01:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> You have to use a forward stroke, so based on what I've read on forums such as this one, it is illegal. If my memory is correct, Bob Jewett, a major player in the area of world standardized rules, said this was illegal in at least one post before this one. I don't know Bob nor am I a rules expert, so you may want to check back for a more definitive answer.
It's definitely a nifty shot, IMO. <hr /></blockquote>
According to the just-adopted World Standardized Rules, you have to shoot with a forward motion of the cue stick that strikes the cue ball. Setting the balls in play in motion any other way is not just a foul but is unsportsmanlike conduct.

Rackum_n_Crackum
12-10-2007, 01:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> You have to use a forward stroke, so based on what I've read on forums such as this one, it is illegal. If my memory is correct, Bob Jewett, a major player in the area of world standardized rules, said this was illegal in at least one post before this one. I don't know Bob nor am I a rules expert, so you may want to check back for a more definitive answer.
It's definitely a nifty shot, IMO. <hr /></blockquote>
According to the just-adopted World Standardized Rules, you have to shoot with a forward motion of the cue stick that strikes the cue ball. Setting the balls in play in motion any other way is not just a foul but is unsportsmanlike conduct. <hr /></blockquote>

Wouldn't most masse shots where the stroke it straight down be lumped in here as well???

mikepage
12-10-2007, 03:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rackum_n_Crackum:</font><hr>[...]

Wouldn't most masse shots where the stroke it straight down be lumped in here as well??? <hr /></blockquote>

I interpret "forward motion" to mean forward relative to the orientation of the stick. So a masse is a forward motion.

Bob_Jewett
12-10-2007, 04:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mikepage:</font><hr> ... I interpret "forward motion" to mean forward relative to the orientation of the stick. So a masse is a forward motion. <hr /></blockquote>
That's the way I would interpret it also.

Rackum_n_Crackum
12-11-2007, 12:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mikepage:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rackum_n_Crackum:</font><hr>[...]

Wouldn't most masse shots where the stroke it straight down be lumped in here as well??? <hr /></blockquote>

OK, I'll buy that /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I interpret "forward motion" to mean forward relative to the orientation of the stick. So a masse is a forward motion. <hr /></blockquote>

SpiderMan
12-14-2007, 10:37 AM
This used to be a fairly-common shot a decade or so ago.

If your research is correct, it would imply that only league players are now barred from executing it, and it would still be allowed at non-league tournaments using BCA rules. That's interesting.

SpiderMan

BigRigTom
12-14-2007, 11:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> This used to be a fairly-common shot a decade or so ago.

If your research is correct, it would imply that only league players are now barred from executing it, and it would still be allowed at non-league tournaments using BCA rules. That's interesting.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

I brought this same question up on our local APA forum and ask if it is OK in the APA in our SouthCoast Region because I have used it and I have coached my teammates to use the shot.... here is the League Operators response:

[ QUOTE ]
Originally posted by Phil on the APA SouthCoast Forum
[br]Define "forward". If I shoot down on the back of the cue ball and angle my cue away from the object ball, am I shooting forward?

The shot Tom mentions is legal in the APA. However, it is NOT guaranteed to produce a good hit. It is still possible to double-hit the cue ball even with this "stroke". If you think about the physics of the shot, what happens is that the tip of the cue traces an arc as it is lifted. The radius of the arc is the length of the cue (or the distance from the tip to the outer edge of the table, if the butt end of the cue is on top of the rail). Since the cue ball is a sphere, it consists of an infinite number of smaller arcs, one of which lies in the same plane as the arc formed by the tip of the cue. In order for the cue ball to move at all, the two arcs must intersect (tangent isn't good enough, that will produce no movement of the cue ball). And as anyone who understands geometry knows, two coplanar circles that intersect must do so in exactly two points. It takes a finite amount of time for the tip to travel from the first point of intersection to the second, during which time it is passing through the space previously occupied by the cue ball. It is possible for the cue ball to return to that space before the tip has passed through the second point of intersection, in which case the result is a double hit.

The physics of this shot are actually the same as the physics of shooting down on the cue ball to avoid a double hit. When shooting down, your tip also traces an arc. If your stroke is straight, the radius of the arc is infinite. Nevertheless, there is still a finite amount of time during which the cue occupies the space where the cue ball was. The difference is that in the first case, the cue leaves the space without changing direction, so it spends less time within that space and the likelihood of a double hit is reduced. Not eliminated, reduced.

Why such a technical explanation? Because the first post mentions Bob Jewett. Bob is a physicist by trade and would appreciate the details of the physics involved, and you should too. [}:)] Bob and I have actually had numerous electronic conversations in the past about such things, including the physics of a "swerve stroke".

Now, why does APA consider this shot legal? Because it falls into the category of "too technical to legislate". What if I did essentially the same thing, only I kept my bridge hand under the cue and held the back end with the other hand? I could produce the same cue motion from this starting position. Would you be able to tell if the motion was "forward"? What if I was holding the cue with the tip above the edge of the cue ball, and accidentally let the tip drop? This is the same tip motion, only in the opposite direction. If it produced a good hit, would it be a foul? What if it wasn't accidental? Would you be able to tell? These are legitimate questions that are difficult to answer if you try to legislate the stroke. The APA feels that the best thing for our players is to avoid all of these issues with a simpler set of rules. If you contact the cue ball with your cue, it makes contact with a legal object ball, and something hits a rail or goes into a pocket, it's good - no need to concern yourself with how the initial contact was made.

By the way, this isn't the only clever way to avoid a double hit. I can do it with a HARD, FORWARD stroke that is (1)parallel to the table, and (2)parallel to the line connecting the center of the cue ball with the center of the object ball. If you want to know how, ask Kato Lin. (HINT: It has something to do with the coefficient of friction)

Phil
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SpiderMan
12-14-2007, 01:52 PM
This appears to be one case where I would favor the APA interpretation vs BCA. The real issue is whether or not a double-hit occurs, and I likewise don't think it's wise to start trying to regulate the mechanics of how it's avoided.

SpiderMan

cushioncrawler
12-14-2007, 10:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Joel:</font><hr> Is this a foul ? To play a safe and avoid a double hit, a good trick is to softly hit the cueball from below center...using the bridge hand as a fulcrum and drooping the butt to send the cue tip up, sending the cue ball forward. This seems to be accepted as legal. Suppose the cueball and object ball are too far to reach with a normal grip...this is the question: Can you lay the cue flat on the table, then perform the above safety shot by picking up the ferrule, causing the tip to hit the cueball from below center and sending the cueball forward (a small distance)? To me this seems both illegal and ridiculous, but its hard to find the correct rule, best I find is 1.3 "may not use equipment in a manner other than intended", and 2.15 inappropriate use of equipment. Any thoughts? Thanks, Joel<hr /></blockquote>Its eezyr to judge this sort of shot by shooting across the line of the shot, ie at 90dg, the qtip glancing off the rear of the qball, ie a sort of misscue (without double hitting and without "pushing"). Lifting the qtip it iz diffikult to judge how thickly u will hit the rear of the qball, and it iz diffukult to do accurately.

Another way. Uze a cue that iznt az heavy az a qball. I made such a cue -- i found that i could hit down on the top of the qball at say 45dg, the lite-cue bounces back a bit, the qball hits OB1 (OB1 iz say 3mm from the qball), then follows on after the OB about one (or two) ball widths to reech OB2, ie to give me a cannon (English billiards here). madMac.

Bob_Jewett
12-17-2007, 12:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> ... Its eezyr to judge this sort of shot by shooting across the line of the shot, ie at 90dg, the qtip glancing off the rear of the qball, ie a sort of misscue (without double hitting and without "pushing"). ... <hr /></blockquote>
While a snooker referee may let you get away with such a shot, intentional miscues are now specifically forbidden at pool by the World Standardized Rules. Such shots are simply not part of the game, and if you play them intentionally, you are subject to being penalized for unsportsmanlike conduct.

The rules of pool are different from the rules of snooker.