PDA

View Full Version : cuestick weight NEW QUESTION



bluecuemon
12-09-2007, 12:15 PM
I'm going to buy myself a new McDermott cuestick for Christmas.What weight stick is best?Also, what is a good brand of jump/break stick? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif [list]

Jal
12-09-2007, 03:13 PM
From what I've read on the forums, most seem to prefer something between 19 oz and 20 oz. If you have exceptionally massive or slight arms, then something heavier or lighter would probably be better.

In theory, relative to each other a heavier cue is more efficient for center ball hits, while a lighter one is more efficient at putting spin on the cueball. But's it's difficult to put absolute numbers on it for a particular player.

Trying out a variety of house cues would probably be a good guide. But they have been known to have inaccurate weights stamped on them, so an independent weight measurement would help. And it could be a little misleading as far as weight distribution is concerned. If you want to keep it simple though, most likely you'll be happy with 19-20 oz.

If you're taller than normal, you might want to consider something longer than 58" too. I'm not exceptionally tall, 6'1", but my cue, which is nearly 60", feels much better than the standard 58".

Jim

DeadCrab
12-09-2007, 04:33 PM
I have a McDermott 19 oz and is is very well balanced. It is possible that changing the weight bolt will make the cue butt-heavy, but it is really a matter of personal preference.

For $5, you can experiment with a full set of weight bolts:
http://www.shootersbilliards.com/McDermott_Weight_Bolt_p/mcdwb.htm

pooltchr
12-09-2007, 05:30 PM
I'm not sure that different weights will be better for this type of shot or that type of shot. I think it is more important how a particular weight feels (comfort) in the hands of the individual player. If it feels good in your hands, it should be effective, regardless of where you are making contact with the cue ball.
Steve

mikepage
12-09-2007, 05:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> [...]
In theory, relative to each other a heavier cue is more efficient for center ball hits, while a lighter one is more efficient at putting spin on the cueball. But's it's difficult to put absolute numbers on it for a particular player.[...] <hr /></blockquote>

I would say if a heavier cue also has a greater moment of inertia, then it might stay on course a bit better and be slightly more insensitive to stroke flaws. But the tradeoff is speed control is tougher with a heavier stick. This is because a particular range of ball speeds is achieved with a narrower range of stick speeds.

Artemus
12-09-2007, 06:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DeadCrab:</font><hr>
For $5, you can experiment with a full set of weight bolts:
http://www.shootersbilliards.com/McDermott_Weight_Bolt_p/mcdwb.htm
<hr /></blockquote>

I agree with this post. Why lock yourself into any weight or cue as long as you can change out the weight bolt. It can be a McDermott or a number of other cues such as Lucasi, Meucci, Joss, Schon, Adam, or a couple of others escaping me right now.

There are a good number of websites that sell weight bolts for all of these cues and you can interchange them at will to see what works and what doesn't. Why not buy a dozen weight bolts and in essence have 12 different cues? Add an extra shaft that weighs either a lot more or a lot less than the one that comes with the cue and you've multiplied your options out tremendously.

Otherwise, you might end up with a very expensive piece of firewood if it doesn't feel right or perform, or, you'll turn into a cue buying addict. A lot of those kinds of guys floating around on various forums.

New2Pool
12-10-2007, 12:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DeadCrab:</font><hr>
I have a McDermott 19 oz and is is very well balanced. It is possible that changing the weight bolt will make the cue butt-heavy, but it is really a matter of personal preference.

For $5, you can experiment with a full set of weight bolts:
http://www.shootersbilliards.com/McDermott_Weight_Bolt_p/mcdwb.htm

<hr /></blockquote>

$5 per weight bolt. Still not a bad deal if you decide you want to change the weight a little.

av84fun
12-10-2007, 03:21 AM
I would say that 18.5-20 would capture the "norm" more accurately.

But as has already been pointed out BALANCE makes a significant difference in the perception of weight.

I use an 18.75 and I have stroked custom cues that I would SWEAR were lighter then had weighed in the pro shop and found they were 20 oz.

Regards,
Jim

Artemus
12-10-2007, 08:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> I'm not sure that different weights will be better for this type of shot or that type of shot. I think it is more important how a particular weight feels (comfort) in the hands of the individual player. If it feels good in your hands, it should be effective, regardless of where you are making contact with the cue ball.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

You don't think a lighter cue can help a player put more juice or easier juice on a draw shot? It's been clearly demonstrated that a lighter weight break cue gets more CB speed in mph than a heavy cue in the hands of the same player. Cue tip speed is a major factor for a draw in addition to where the CB is struck. The small muscles of the hand, wrist, forearms, and the fingers can move easier and faster for "flash speed" in draw as well as follow.

Accuracy is another issue unless a player has a robotic stroke. It does seem more apt to jerk off line from the flash speed and more difficult to maintain CB control, especially on the break.

Heretic
12-10-2007, 01:16 PM
I would think that if you were to the point of buying a McDermott instead of a $20 department store stick, you would have a preferance in weight by now.

For production cues I like meucci. The weights are not only changeable, but allow you to adjust the balance as well. Meuccis have two weights in the butt, and you use an allen wrench to set the depth of these weights in the butt, to get the ideal balance for your hand

I have read dozens of guides for choosing sticks, and spent many thousands of dollars on a collection of sticks that now gather dust in the top of my closet. While many of the guides were written by very well informed and well meaning people, I never could get the right feel by following what worked for others. The only way I could find what I wanted was to try them out, and just try a shot to know how a stick felt in my hand

pooltchr
12-10-2007, 06:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> I'm not sure that different weights will be better for this type of shot or that type of shot. I think it is more important how a particular weight feels (comfort) in the hands of the individual player. If it feels good in your hands, it should be effective, regardless of where you are making contact with the cue ball.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

You don't think a lighter cue can help a player put more juice or easier juice on a draw shot? It's been clearly demonstrated that a lighter weight break cue gets more CB speed in mph than a heavy cue in the hands of the same player. Cue tip speed is a major factor for a draw in addition to where the CB is struck. The small muscles of the hand, wrist, forearms, and the fingers can move easier and faster for "flash speed" in draw as well as follow.

Accuracy is another issue unless a player has a robotic stroke. It does seem more apt to jerk off line from the flash speed and more difficult to maintain CB control, especially on the break. <hr /></blockquote>

I think that a half an ounce one way or another will have very little impact on the ability of a player to make a shot with the desired speed or spin. I also think that if the shooter has a cue that feels comfortable, he/she will find they can use the same cue just as effectively on any kind of shot.
We aren't like golf. You don't have one cue for straight on shots, one for left or right english, one for slow rolls, one for long draw shots......we use one cue, one weight for 98% of our shots. (I will allow that many players have a jump and break cue) I want that cue to be comfortable...I will learn how to use it to do what needs to be done on every shot.
Steve

Artemus
12-11-2007, 08:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>
I think that a half an ounce one way or another will have very little impact on the ability of a player to make a shot with the desired speed or spin. I also think that if the shooter has a cue that feels comfortable, he/she will find they can use the same cue just as effectively on any kind of shot.
We aren't like golf. You don't have one cue for straight on shots, one for left or right english, one for slow rolls, one for long draw shots......we use one cue, one weight for 98% of our shots. (I will allow that many players have a jump and break cue) I want that cue to be comfortable...I will learn how to use it to do what needs to be done on every shot.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Who's talking about a half ounce, that was never the issue or the comparison? It was between a LIGHTER cue and HEAVIER cue. I don't know what that means to you, but to me it means 18-18.7 oz. vs. 19.8-20.5+ oz.

JAL stated this: "In theory, relative to each other a heavier cue is more efficient for center ball hits, while a lighter one is more efficient at putting spin on the cueball."

DRAW is a SPIN shot. It's easier to get cue tip speed with an 18-18.7 oz. cue for draw just as it is to get more mph in a break cue with the weights that I listed. You don't agree with that? If you don't agree about the lighter break cue producing more speed in mph then you're contradicting all the results. If you do agree, then you must be saying that it applies to both a break cue and regular cue for draw spin - or it applies to a break cue but NOT a regular cue to produce draw. Which is it?

I'm very well aware that you only use one cue instead of 14 clubs like in golf, but since you brought up the analogy -
what produces more distance because you can get greater club head speed and BALL SPEED, a driver that had a 130 gram steel shaft and weighed 13 oz. or the driver of today that has a 60 gram graphite shaft, lightweight titanium head and weighs 11 oz? It's not even CLOSE. It's the one that you can move faster and quicker.

I agree with you about a cue that you can get comfortable with but that takes time to figure out after a lot of table time and experimentation. We change as players along with our feel and it's always evolving, just like the look and shape of our bodies with time.

You have all of those Fury cues sitting right there at your disposal, go grab an 18.25 oz. and a 20.25 oz. cue and refresh your memory.

Jal
12-11-2007, 03:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mikepage:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> [...]
In theory, relative to each other a heavier cue is more efficient for center ball hits, while a lighter one is more efficient at putting spin on the cueball. But's it's difficult to put absolute numbers on it for a particular player.[...] <hr /></blockquote>

I would say if a heavier cue also has a greater moment of inertia, then it might stay on course a bit better and be slightly more insensitive to stroke flaws.<hr /></blockquote>Yes, that's a definite benefit of a heavier cue. It could be argued though that the ratio of the moment of inertia about the bridge to the cue's mass. And it might not be impossible to fabricate a lighter weight cue which maintains a good ratio, ie, by removing mass from the joint end of the butt and perhaps adding some of it back to the rear end.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mikepage:</font><hr>But the tradeoff is speed control is tougher with a heavier stick. This is because a particular range of ball speeds is achieved with a narrower range of stick speeds. <hr /></blockquote>I think it might be the range of forces applied to the arm/cue rather than the range of cue speeds? As such, if a particular cue, mated to a particular arm, was most efficient at some particular offset, then both a heavier or lighter cue would require a greater range of forces to produce the same range of ball speeds, and thus benefit, perhaps, speed control (at the cost of efficiency).

Just some froth.

Jim

pooltchr
12-11-2007, 06:47 PM
Yes, it's "easier" to get speed with a lighter cue, but I believe the weight only comes into play when you are trying to get maximum speed. The only shot I do that with is the break. I can not remember ever needing break speed for any shot in the middle of a game. For that reason, I don't think it comes into play in any significant way.
On a one to ten scale, with ten being break speed, most of my shots will more likely be in the two to six range. Almost all of them will be between a one and a seven. The weight of my cue does not cause me any problem getting up to a seven speed.
Comfort and balance combine to make a cue "feel good" and that gives consistancy to any player.
And yes, I am well aware of the difference between an 18 oz and a 21 oz cue. After over 40 years of playing, I have had many opportunities to experiment. Now my playing cue and my break cue are both 19 oz. Since that weight is most comfortable when I am shooting, it stands to reason the same weight would be pretty comfortable for breaking.

Maybe we could get Dr Dave to figure out exactly how much more speed could be squeezed out by dropping an ounce or two for a break cue, while using the same amount of energy to move it. Or maybe the other way...how much speed would be lost if the same amount of energy was used to move the heavier cue. I would bet that for the vast majority of players, the difference would be insignificant. Being comfortable with the weight of the break cue would probably give the player a better advantage.

Steve

Jal
12-11-2007, 07:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>
I think that a half an ounce one way or another will have very little impact on the ability of a player to make a shot with the desired speed or spin....<hr /></blockquote>

Who's talking about a half ounce, that was never the issue or the comparison? It was between a LIGHTER cue and HEAVIER cue. I don't know what that means to you, but to me it means 18-18.7 oz. vs. 19.8-20.5+ oz.<hr /></blockquote>Those seem like plausible numbers.

Technically, even though the forearm rotates about the elbow, you can assign some equivalent mass to it (rather than moment of inertia). Suppose, for instance, a particular player's equivalent forearm/hand mass is 3X the cueball's mass, or 18 oz in weight. With a centerball hit then, the most efficient cue for that player would be about 18 oz. At a large offset of .4R, it would go down to 14.7 oz. And at a near maximum offset of .5R, the most efficient cue would be about 13.5 oz. These are approximate figures as the calculations ignore a couple of things. But it's surprising how large the spread is.

The numbers begin to break down though as you consider what it takes to produce maximum spin. The reason is that you should be able to apply more force to a heavier cue than to a lighter one, and the above comparisons are for equal forces. So in reality, the spread isn't so great when max spin is added to the mix.

I think you could extract a procedure from this, using centerball hits and different weighted cues, to determine your forearm/hand's equivalent mass and just how the larger forces drop off with diminishing cue weight. You would then have the makings of a rational basis for choosing the weight. For example, you might want to have a cue that is pretty efficient at large offsets (ie, for those long draws), but fairly inefficient at smaller ones so that speed control is enhanced there.

Jim

Artemus
12-12-2007, 08:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Yes, it's "easier" to get speed with a lighter cue, but I believe the weight only comes into play when you are trying to get maximum speed.

<font color="red">If it's "easier" to get speed with a lighter cue, then it's "easier" to do it at any speed, not just maximum speed. You can just "flick" the CB with a quick hand and wrist movement and get movement easily with a light cue. And don't start harping to me that it's an inappropriate stroke or way to hit a shot, BS.</font color>

The only shot I do that with is the break. I can not remember ever needing break speed for any shot in the middle of a game.

<font color="red">I would hope not! It would be quite embarrassing to be out of position that bad and have your leg flying up in the air like Bustamante while you're firing the CB around at warp speed.</font color>

For that reason, I don't think it comes into play in any significant way.

<font color="red">I do agree with you here. But you already corrected your erroneous statement made in an earlier post about weight having NO effect on spin when you changed it in the first sentence of this post by stating it was "easier". But I'll go one step further, it's also MORE PRONOUNCED for draw shots (spin shot) when you use a lighter cue as opposed to a much heavier cue assuming that the same player is using good technique. It might not be the shot Mike Massey did in the video, but it isn't incomprehensible that something similar or a little less in difficulty could come up requiring a stroke out of the ordinary that isn't break speed.</font color>

On a one to ten scale, with ten being break speed, most of my shots will more likely be in the two to six range. Almost all of them will be between a one and a seven. The weight of my cue does not cause me any problem getting up to a seven speed.

<font color="red">At 19 oz. I would think not. Just remember, this thread was started by an individual who had no idea what weight cue to use, it wasn't about you and your choice. He might actually be better off with a 20.25 oz. cue for right now, who knows?</font color>

Comfort and balance combine to make a cue "feel good" and that gives consistancy to any player.
And yes, I am well aware of the difference between an 18 oz and a 21 oz cue. After over 40 years of playing, I have had many opportunities to experiment. Now my playing cue and my break cue are both 19 oz. Since that weight is most comfortable when I am shooting, it stands to reason the same weight would be pretty comfortable for breaking.

Maybe we could get Dr Dave to figure out exactly how much more speed could be squeezed out by dropping an ounce or two for a break cue, while using the same amount of energy to move it. Or maybe the other way...how much speed would be lost if the same amount of energy was used to move the heavier cue. I would bet that for the vast majority of players, the difference would be insignificant. Being comfortable with the weight of the break cue would probably give the player a better advantage.

<font color="red">I think "comfort" has little to do with a break cue, it's the RESULTS of being able to control the CB to hit the head ball where you want it as well as control it post break, lest we not forget the ability to make and spread balls.</font color>

Steve <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red">We don't need the most scientific way to do it or to use a radar gun (which would be good). Just get an 18-18.5 oz cue and a 20.5 oz cue, place the CB on the head spot and slam it as hard as you possibly can into the end rail so that it keeps going back and forth and count the number of rails. If it holds true like most who try it, the difference will be between 1/2 table to almost a full table length. Is that signigicant for measuring speed? I think it is. Now that I've said all of that, I use a 20.6 oz. break cue and sometimes a 21.4 oz. cue because I can control it much better and it hammers the balls open. Is it comfortable? No not really, it just does the best job.</font color>

Heretic
12-12-2007, 01:02 PM
aren't we just hashing out semantics here? It is easy to say that one stick has less mass, and apply Newton's laws of physics here. It is even easier to read what Meucci has published about shaft flex and "Snap". These do play apart, but we are ignoring the most important factor.....The "human factor". If a stick feels good in your hand, and you believe that it is the best weight for you, chances are you will do better with it. I have tried,and even purchased many sticks trying to find "That perfect one". I do not believe that the stick makes the player, but I do think that confidence and belief helps. I know it does for me. I have that one stick that just feels so good in my hand that I am more confident every time I get it out of my case.

I have a friend who is on my pool league team. He bought on of my old sticks, and has become quite good with it. Do to an odd string of events he did not have his stick one day, and borrowed my extra. Even though his stick and my extra were the same make, weight, balance, and had the same tip, he could not shoot up to his normal standard with it. He could have just been having an "off" day, but I really think his confidence had been shaken because he did not have his own stick

pooltchr
12-12-2007, 06:17 PM
While the exact percentage is debatable, I think we would all agree that the game of pool is, to a fairly significant degree, a mental game. Confidence is key to performing well. Having a cue you are familiar with and comfortable using goes a long way to providing that confidence.
The cue is just a piece of wood...what the shooter does with it is the true magic.
Steve

Artemus
12-13-2007, 06:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> While the exact percentage is debatable, I think we would all agree that the game of pool is, to a fairly significant degree, a mental game. Confidence is key to performing well. Having a cue you are familiar with and comfortable using goes a long way to providing that confidence.

<font color="red">Sure, as long as you're running racks and winning money or tournaments and have been consistently doing it over a long period of time. I'm sure you also know plenty of guys that love their cues and are comfortable with it but are still bangers and always will be.</font color>

The cue is just a piece of wood...what the shooter does with it is the true magic.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red">True about the magic and what the shooter does with it. But if it's just a piece of wood, do you wanna trash your 19 oz. cue tomorrow and go to a 17.5 or 20.8 oz. cue for the rest of your life? Why not, magic with a deck of Bicycle cards is exactly the same as a deck of cards given by the airlines. Right?</font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Derek
12-13-2007, 11:12 AM
I'm with the well-balanced crowd versus getting hung up on weight. I still use the McDermott that I bought over a decade ago. In my opinion, most entry-level McDermotts are butt-heavy. Testing one of my friends more expensive custom cues of about the same weight showed me what a nice well-balanced cue feels like instead of holding a rock in your grip hand.

I've been able to work with the McDermott "as is" for years, but I just recently decided to take out the weight bolt, so no bolt at all. Magically, the cue is now fairly well-balanced throughout. It feels so much better in my hands, almost to the point I don't know it's there. This change leads to the confidence factor because the mind is no longer focusing on some outside agent versus the shot at hand.

I think the only time weight really became an issue for me was in purchasing my break stick. After years of breaking with various weighted bar cues, I finally decided an 18 to 19 oz break stick was best to use for me.

Artemus
12-13-2007, 11:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Derek:</font><hr> I'm with the well-balanced crowd versus getting hung up on weight. I still use the McDermott that I bought over a decade ago. In my opinion, most entry-level McDermotts are butt-heavy. Testing one of my friends more expensive custom cues of about the same weight showed me what a nice well-balanced cue feels like instead of holding a rock in your grip hand.

I've been able to work with the McDermott "as is" for years, but I just recently decided to take out the weight bolt, so no bolt at all. Magically, the cue is now fairly well-balanced throughout. It feels so much better in my hands, almost to the point I don't know it's there. This change leads to the confidence factor because the mind is no longer focusing on some outside agent versus the shot at hand.

I think the only time weight really became an issue for me was in purchasing my break stick. After years of breaking with various weighted bar cues, I finally decided an 18 to 19 oz break stick was best to use for me. <hr /></blockquote>

After removing the weight bolt as you did, why would you say weight is not a factor for you? If the weight bolt was of any significance, and I'm sure it was if you stated that it went from feeling like a rock in your hand to not knowing it was there, it could very well be a weight issue that you need to focus on for the future. Balance would indeed be changed without a large or heavy bolt, but what do you think would have happened if you left the bolt in and got a heavier shaft? You could have balanced it that way also but do you think it would have had the same feel or performance in your hand that you didn't even notice it as you do now? My guess is it's both weight and balance.

How much did the balance point change and how much did the weight change, do you have any idea?

dr_dave
12-13-2007, 12:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Maybe we could get Dr Dave to figure out exactly how much more speed could be squeezed out by dropping an ounce or two for a break cue, while using the same amount of energy to move it. Or maybe the other way...how much speed would be lost if the same amount of energy was used to move the heavier cue.<hr /></blockquote>That's a tough thing to "analyze." My thoughts on the topic can be found here (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=171855&amp;Foru m=ccb&amp;Words=dr_dave&amp;Match=Username&amp;Searchpage=1&amp;Li mit=25&amp;Old=allposts&amp;Main=125575&amp;Search=true#Post17 1855) .

Regards,
Dave

Jager85
12-13-2007, 02:15 PM
In my experience cue weight is all a personal preference. The main difference I see is a lighter stick makes for easier control of ball speed, but a heavier stick will have more of a natural follow through which may help with your stroke a little. I personally shoot with an 18oz. I don't mind 19, but anything higher is not my cup of tea. I prefer the speed control as that is where most of my position problems come from.

Jal
12-13-2007, 02:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Maybe we could get Dr Dave to figure out exactly how much more speed could be squeezed out by dropping an ounce or two for a break cue, while using the same amount of energy to move it. Or maybe the other way...how much speed would be lost if the same amount of energy was used to move the heavier cue.<hr /></blockquote>That's a tough thing to "analyze." My thoughts on the topic can be found here (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=171855&amp;Foru m=ccb&amp;Words=dr_dave&amp;Match=Username&amp;Searchpage=1&amp;Li mit=25&amp;Old=allposts&amp;Main=125575&amp;Search=true#Post17 1855) .

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>For the same average force appled, and assuming the force is symmetric in time (the simpler kinematic relation v^2 = Sqrt(2ax) thus applies), the difference in cueball speed and spin is trivial over a rather broad range of stick masses.

For instance, if the equivalent mass of the forearm and hand of a particular player is 3 times the mass of the cueball, then, as mentioned earlier, the optimal stick weight at an offset of .5R would be about 13.5 oz. But the gain in spin and speed over a stick weighing 18 oz would only be about 1%.

For the same player, the optimal stick weight for a centerball hit would be 18 oz. If a 20 oz cue was used instead, the loss of speed and spin would only be about 2/10'ths of 1%.

So under this analysis, pooltchr's contention that stick weight makes very little difference is borne out. This can be worked out for the cases of asymmetrically applied forces, but it's doubtful things would change in any significant way.

I guess the question, as you say, does come down to fast twitch versus slow twitch muscles, and not the mass or moment of inertia of the forearm.

Jim

Artemus
12-13-2007, 06:44 PM
Again, why hypothesize and theorize with equations? I can't even imagine how that would accurately play out in reality when the human factors of individual strength, speed, timing, and squareness of hit far supercede mass of the arm and cue weight. Dr. Dave's take on it is really more appropriate. Experiment!

It's real simple. Get a 17.5 oz. to 18.5 oz cue, a CB and let a real life test tell the story vs a 20-21 oz. cue or anything else in between with either a radar gun or taking your best/hardest break stroke with the CB alone and count the # of rails that you get it to go lengthwise on the table. Most distance covered vs. one or the other = more speed.

Maximum speed still might not be the deciding factor when breaking the rack in either 9 ball or 8 ball. It's a variety of things.

Personally, I can get 5-5 1/2 rails with a light cue and
4 1/4-4 3/4 rails max with the heavy cues. I opt for the heavy cues when breaking because of more control with the CB.
How did this thread turn into a break speed thread and has nothing to do with the original poster's question? His bottom line is also the same answer, Experiment!

pooltchr
12-13-2007, 07:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> It's easier to get cue tip speed with an 18-18.7 oz. cue for draw just as it is to get more mph in a break cue with the weights that I listed. You don't agree with that? If you don't agree about the lighter break cue producing more speed in mph then you're contradicting all the results. If you do agree, then you must be saying that it applies to both a break cue and regular cue for draw spin - or it applies to a break cue but NOT a regular cue to produce draw. Which is it?

<hr /></blockquote>

I think it may have turned somewhere around this comment.

I don't know who you are, or what your background is, so I'm not sure where you are coming from here. You seem to think that the difference in weight can have a significant impact on a player's ability to more easily perform one kind of shot over another. My position is that if the weight is comfortable, the player will have maximum effectiveness on most all the shots they need to shoot.

I'm not an engineer, but I have devoted a considerable amount of time studying pool players, and what works for them. I think that some things in the game can be over analyzed. Sometimes, you just have to know what feels right and go with it. I would rather help a student learn how to use the cue they have properly, than try to figure out if an extra ounce of weight would make a difference. I could take the weight bolt out of my cue, warm up with it for 10 or 15 minutes, and play just as well.

I guess, as Dr Dave often says, we will need to agree to disagree.
Steve

Jal
12-13-2007, 10:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> Again, why hypothesize and theorize with equations?<hr /></blockquote>Because physics is usually more reliable than anecdotal evidence.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>I can't even imagine how that would accurately play out in reality when the human factors of individual strength, speed, timing, and squareness of hit far supercede mass of the arm and cue weight. Dr. Dave's take on it is really more appropriate. Experiment!<hr /></blockquote>The physics here is pretty simple. The original poster's main question was about a playing cue which, I think we can safely assume, would be used for mostly for normal shots and not ones approaching break speed. At moderate speeds, we can also assume that the same force can be applied to both a heavy or light cue coupled to the player's arm. So the only variables are the mass of the player's arm, mass of the cue, and tip offset. (Okay, the shape of the force time curve should also be considered, but I haven't done it and it doesn't seem like it will make that much difference considering the miniscule differences for the simpler symmetric case.)

Physics does show that there is a major difference in optimal weight for different offsets. But it further shows that "optimal" doesn't really mean much here: the differences in speed and spin are very slight between cues of considerably different masses when the same force is applied to the arm/stick combination. I didn't expect this, but that's what the numbers say.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>It's real simple. Get a 17.5 oz. to 18.5 oz cue, a CB and let a real life test tell the story vs a 20-21 oz. cue or anything else in between with either a radar gun or taking your best/hardest break stroke with the CB alone and count the # of rails that you get it to go lengthwise on the table. Most distance covered vs. one or the other = more speed.<hr /></blockquote>This is a good test for deciding on a break cue weight, perhaps, but not necessarily for a normal one. And as you and others have indicated, speed isn't the only consideration.

Jim

Derek
12-14-2007, 12:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>After removing the weight bolt as you did, why would you say weight is not a factor for you? If the weight bolt was of any significance, and I'm sure it was if you stated that it went from feeling like a rock in your hand to not knowing it was there, it could very well be a weight issue that you need to focus on for the future. Balance would indeed be changed without a large or heavy bolt, but what do you think would have happened if you left the bolt in and got a heavier shaft? You could have balanced it that way also but do you think it would have had the same feel or performance in your hand that you didn't even notice it as you do now? My guess is it's both weight and balance.

How much did the balance point change and how much did the weight change, do you have any idea?
<hr /></blockquote>

The weight bolt is 2 oz. The balance point shifted 1.5" to 2" towards the tip, about 4 fingers width from the linen wrap.

True, weight is an issue because the bolt was removed making a 19.25 oz cue now 17.25 oz. But I have shot with other 19 oz cues in the past that are better balanced and it sure doesn't feel the same as a McDermott that is butt-heavy. If I were to take the same balance point I have now and shifted up to a 19 oz cue, it wouldn't matter to me much. Now if it were 21 oz, that would be different.

To my knowledge, I don't think there are heavier shafts out there that would cure how butt-heavy my McDermott was. It would have taken some dense wood to do so. Maybe the right thing to do is find a brand of cues with a preferred balance point and then determine what weight feels best.

Artemus
12-14-2007, 06:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> It's easier to get cue tip speed with an 18-18.7 oz. cue for draw just as it is to get more mph in a break cue with the weights that I listed. You don't agree with that? If you don't agree about the lighter break cue producing more speed in mph then you're contradicting all the results. If you do agree, then you must be saying that it applies to both a break cue and regular cue for draw spin - or it applies to a break cue but NOT a regular cue to produce draw. Which is it?

<hr /></blockquote>

I think it may have turned somewhere around this comment.

<font color="red">No, it turned around on these comments when JAL first made this statement: "In theory, relative to each other a heavier cue is more efficient for center ball hits, while a lighter one is more efficient at putting spin on the cueball. But's it's difficult to put absolute numbers on it for a particular player."
JAL, THE MAD PHYSICIST WAS THE FIRST ONE TO MAKE A STATEMENT ABOUT MORE SPIN BEING APPLIED TO THE CB BY A LIGHTER STICK AND MORE EFFICIENCY WITH A HEAVY CUE FOR CENTER BALL HITS! MIKE PAGE REITERATED WHAT JAL STATED ABOUT A HEAVY CUE AND THE MOI!

Quote pooltchr: YOU THEN STATE:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure that different weights will be better for this type of shot or that type of shot. I think it is more important how a particular weight feels (comfort) in the hands of the individual player. If it feels good in your hands, it should be effective, regardless of where you are making contact with the cue ball.
Steve
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I THEN STATED: (Are you starting to follow this better?)
You don't think a lighter cue can help a player put more juice or easier juice on a draw shot? It's been clearly demonstrated that a lighter weight break cue gets more CB speed in mph than a heavy cue in the hands of the same player. Cue tip speed is a major factor for a draw in addition to where the CB is struck. The small muscles of the hand, wrist, forearms, and the fingers can move easier and faster for "flash speed" in draw as well as follow. </font color>

I don't know who you are, or what your background is, so I'm not sure where you are coming from here.

<font color="red">I know who you are and you know who I am. I purchase from Sterling as well as many other wholesalers and you're a much more pleasant fella to talk to and buy from than what I see here. I've literally gone through HUNDREDS of different cues with different weights ranging from 17.25 oz. to over 21 oz. that have 3 oz. shafts to over 5 oz. shafts and everything in between and personally EXPERIMENTED WITH ALL OF THE COMBINATIONS WHICH IS WELL INTO THE HIGH HUNDREDS OF POSSIBILITIES. How many players or "expert" forum posters ever have an opportunity to do THAT? Typically they've owned a few cues their entire life and that's about it. I'm not playing educated guessing games here or stupid guessing games. There's no theory, equations, math, physics, hypothesis or other knowledge flowing from the cosmos. It's just "on the table" long hours of real life experimentation with every conceivable setup by me and a lot of other good players with excellent strokes.</font color>

You seem to think that the difference in weight can have a significant impact on a player's ability to more easily perform one kind of shot over another.

<font color="red">Let's go back to the earlier posts, JAL and MIKE PAGE said it first! Yes, I concur with their statements as well. But I'm primarily referring to DRAW and the BREAK. YOU CAN PRODUCE MORE SPEED WITH A LIGHTER CUE TO GET A GREATER AMOUNT OF DRAW AND TO PERFORM IT EASIER AND YOU CAN GET MORE SPEED WITH A LIGHTER CUE FOR THE BREAK. You can take that to the bank! </font color>

My position is that if the weight is comfortable, the player will have maximum effectiveness on most all the shots they need to shoot.

<font color="red">I agree. All I'm saying is, you can get GREATER results on a few shots with a lighter or heavier cue. (another reminder, JAL and MIKE PAGE also said it) But as you stated earlier, you can't switch cues for every shot. There's always a tradeoff from one benefit or pitfall to the next and the determination has to be made somewhere in the middle of the road for consistency. </font color>

I'm not an engineer, but I have devoted a considerable amount of time studying pool players, and what works for them.

<font color="red">So have I.</font color>

I think that some things in the game can be over analyzed. Sometimes, you just have to know what feels right and go with it. I would rather help a student learn how to use the cue they have properly, than try to figure out if an extra ounce of weight would make a difference.

<font color="red">You have a two fold position in life, teacher and equipment dealer. I'd have to say you're more of an equipment dealer because that's where you spend all of your time and it puts food on the table. It may just seem more prestigious to say you're a teacher, but you're in equipment first and foremost. I would have expected more from you regarding the importance and differences in equipment. Fact is, I can't even believe some of the things you've said in here regarding equipment just to try to win a stupid forum debate. I know you know better about what a cue can or can't do and the weight issues, at least I hope you do.</font color>

I guess, as Dr Dave often says, we will need to agree to disagree.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red">I guess so Steve. Here something we can agree on and I mean this in all sincerity. FURY is one of the BEST BREAK CUES out there for the money against all of them! Are we in agreement now?</font color>

Artemus
12-14-2007, 08:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> Again, why hypothesize and theorize with equations?<hr /></blockquote>Because physics is usually more reliable than anecdotal evidence.
Jim <hr /></blockquote>

That's nice. Pull out all of your equations and please explain how a "bee flys".
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/newton/askasci/1993/physics/PHY4.HTM

Btw, wasn't it YOU that made the first statement on this thread about a lighter cue having the ability to create more spin and a heavier cue being better for center ball hits? Was that physics or anecdotal evidence? You said it, remember?

I guess if we use your super physics equations that are so reliable, all we have to do to earn a fortune is BET on the boxer who has the biggest arm mass with 12 oz. gloves to be the winner of every fight, nothing else matters. How about the quarterback with the biggest arm mass to throw a football the fastest and furthest? Also the MLB pitcher with the greatest mass in his arm to clock the highest fastball? Why do you think there's such a LARGE disparity in the weight of baseball bats throughout MLB? If a baseball bat is just a baseball bat, why can't a hitting coach get everyone to swing the fastest with a log made from a sequoia tree with weight being no issue whatsoever, only technique that matters? Can a BB player with the biggest arm mass swing both a heavy bat and light bat faster than a player with thinner arms?

Artemus
12-14-2007, 09:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Derek:</font><hr>
The weight bolt is 2 oz. The balance point shifted 1.5" to 2" towards the tip, about 4 fingers width from the linen wrap.

True, weight is an issue because the bolt was removed making a 19.25 oz cue now 17.25 oz. But I have shot with other 19 oz cues in the past that are better balanced and it sure doesn't feel the same as a McDermott that is butt-heavy. If I were to take the same balance point I have now and shifted up to a 19 oz cue, it wouldn't matter to me much. Now if it were 21 oz, that would be different.

To my knowledge, I don't think there are heavier shafts out there that would cure how butt-heavy my McDermott was. It would have taken some dense wood to do so. Maybe the right thing to do is find a brand of cues with a preferred balance point and then determine what weight feels best. <hr /></blockquote>

Sounds to me like you have the foundation for some interesting experiments if you really wanted to find out what matters.

As I see it, you had more of a dramatic change in weight than balance because the balance point only changed 1/2" compared to two full ounces. If a balance point on a cue is 20" give or take 1/2" and the balance point on another cue is 17, 17 1/2", or 18", or you can alter your cue to those extremes, that is a major difference.

Just for good old curiosity sake to see what you get in feel plus performance, why don't you order a McDermott weight bolt in 1/2 oz., 1 oz., and 1 1/2 oz. to see what happens? You have the original 2 oz. bolt also. I hope you do follow through with this idea, I'd love to hear your findings and what you came to determine as impactful for you.

Jal
12-14-2007, 01:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> Again, why hypothesize and theorize with equations?<hr /></blockquote>Because physics is usually more reliable than anecdotal evidence.
Jim <hr /></blockquote>

That's nice. Pull out all of your equations and please explain how a "bee flys".
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/newton/askasci/1993/physics/PHY4.HTM
<hr /></blockquote>My theory is that when a bee lifts off, there's more force pushing up than pushing down. Many years in the laboratory, with the help of my faithful assistant, Igor, have proven this to be an absolute fact.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>Btw, wasn't it YOU that made the first statement on this thread about a lighter cue having the ability to create more spin and a heavier cue being better for center ball hits? Was that physics or anecdotal evidence? You said it, remember?<hr /></blockquote>Artemus, you're right. And you did take up the cause which I now seem to have abandoned. It's just that I didn't realize how small the differences were when I made the statement. I only knew there was a difference.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>I guess if we use your super physics equations that are so reliable, all we have to do to earn a fortune is BET on the boxer who has the biggest arm mass with 12 oz. gloves to be the winner of every fight, nothing else matters. How about the quarterback with the biggest arm mass to throw a football the fastest and furthest? Also the MLB pitcher with the greatest mass in his arm to clock the highest fastball? Why do you think there's such a LARGE disparity in the weight of baseball bats throughout MLB? If a baseball bat is just a baseball bat, why can't a hitting coach get everyone to swing the fastest with a log made from a sequoia tree with weight being no issue whatsoever, only technique that matters? Can a BB player with the biggest arm mass swing both a heavy bat and light bat faster than a player with thinner arms? <hr /></blockquote>I'm not sure what you're saying here. I still agree that cue weight does make a difference. It's just that for average speed shots, ie, where the same amount of force can be applied to both a heavier or lighter cue, the difference is hardly anything at all, according to my math (which ain't always right). In other words, in going from a centerball hit to some large offset, a lighter cue would be more efficient, but there's not much payoff.

You've focused on higher speed shots though, such as breaks and power draws, where cue mass should make more of a difference. As Dr. Dave stated, this is harder to analyze because physiology now enters into the picture; we're no longer making a comparison where the same amount of force can be applied. As such, I agree that experience and experimentation has a lot more to say about it than simple physics, super though it may be.

Please clarify what you meant by the above if you think we're still in disagreement about anything.

Jim

Artemus
12-14-2007, 02:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> Again, why hypothesize and theorize with equations?<hr /></blockquote>Because physics is usually more reliable than anecdotal evidence.
Jim <hr /></blockquote>

That's nice. Pull out all of your equations and please explain how a "bee flys".
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/newton/askasci/1993/physics/PHY4.HTM
<hr /></blockquote>My theory is that when a bee lifts off, there's more force pushing up than pushing down. Many years in the laboratory, with the help of my faithful assistant, Igor, have proven this to be an absolute fact.

<font color="red"> I was hoping to see a 3 page equation to prove it. Did Igor get his GED yet? The Argonne Laboratory still hasn't figured it out (above link). They stated this 2 times. "The result is probably some very complex air currents - I assume they can be
modeled these days, and maybe somebody has done it, but in any case the
flight of a bee cannot be described by any simple theory."

"All of this complicated "paddling" allows it to fly. It is not really
known "exactly" how the bee flies."
</font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>Btw, wasn't it YOU that made the first statement on this thread about a lighter cue having the ability to create more spin and a heavier cue being better for center ball hits? Was that physics or anecdotal evidence? You said it, remember?<hr /></blockquote>Artemus, you're right. And you did take up the cause which I now seem to have abandoned. It's just that I didn't realize how small the differences were when I made the statement. I only knew there was a difference.

<font color="red"> Hey, a difference is a difference. I'm not sure you realize how much 'larger' the difference can be without the calculations and doing it with real live pool players instead. I'm talking about REAL poolplayers that definitely know how to stroke their CB with authority and accuracy. </font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>I guess if we use your super physics equations that are so reliable, all we have to do to earn a fortune is BET on the boxer who has the biggest arm mass with 12 oz. gloves to be the winner of every fight, nothing else matters. How about the quarterback with the biggest arm mass to throw a football the fastest and furthest? Also the MLB pitcher with the greatest mass in his arm to clock the highest fastball? Why do you think there's such a LARGE disparity in the weight of baseball bats throughout MLB? If a baseball bat is just a baseball bat, why can't a hitting coach get everyone to swing the fastest with a log made from a sequoia tree with weight being no issue whatsoever, only technique that matters? Can a BB player with the biggest arm mass swing both a heavy bat and light bat faster than a player with thinner arms? <hr /></blockquote>I'm not sure what you're saying here. I still agree that cue weight does make a difference.

<font color="red"> That's it in a nutshell. If you feel that cue weight does make a difference, and I feel that cue weight does make a difference, this whole thing is over. Let's go get a beer. </font color>

It's just that for average speed shots, ie, where the same amount of force can be applied to both a heavier or lighter cue, the difference is hardly anything at all,

<font color="red"> I never said otherwise and I agree. </font color>

according to my math (which ain't always right). In other words, in going from a centerball hit to some large offset, a lighter cue would be more efficient, but there's not much payoff.

<font color="red"> The only offset I've ever referred to is DRAW, not english 1-3 tips out. But on draw, there is a payoff. If you don't believe it or the math doesn't come out correctly, stay after school until you get it right. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color>

You've focused on higher speed shots though, such as breaks and power draws, where cue mass should make more of a difference.

<font color="red">Again, that's all I've ever been referring to. Although you might as well throw in follow also just for a little more controversy. What the hey! </font color>

As Dr. Dave stated, this is harder to analyze because physiology now enters into the picture; we're no longer making a comparison where the same amount of force can be applied.

<font color="red"> And it can't be applied because of what reason? WEIGHT, correct? Can I get the congregation to shout "AMEN" "AMEN JESUS"!! </font color>


As such, I agree that experience and experimentation has a lot more to say about it than simple physics, super though it may be.

Please clarify what you meant by the above if you think we're still in disagreement about anything.

<font color="red"> I think I just dun did that. </font color>

Jim
<hr /></blockquote>

pooltchr
12-14-2007, 06:27 PM
My biggest problem with forums like this is how things can so easily be misunderstood. First of all, if something I wrote came across as rude, I apologize. I'm just trying to clarify my opinion.

Let's forget break cues and break shots for a minute. The original post was about what weight playing cue to get.
1. I believe the best weight for any player is the weight that feels most comfortable for all types of shots.
2. I believe that different weights can produce slightly different results, but those differences are so slight that most good players can adapt their stroke to get the desired results regardless of the chosen weight.
3. While a long draw shot does require more speed than a shorter one (adjusting speed and or spin is the only way to control draw)we still don't need to use maximum (break) speed even for maximum draw. For that reason, I think any good player can get the required speed with any weight cue. Those same players would be able to adjust their stroke to compensate for the weight differences in various cues.
4. Since over the course of a game, a player will need to vary speed and spin from shot to shot, the most comfortable weight to the individual player makes the most sense to me. It's easier to make slight adjustments to speed and spin with a well balanced comfortable cue. You can establish a centergistic or reference point for a stroke speed follow shot, then work from there to know what is needed when you need to do something else with the cue ball.
5. I totally agree that my Fury Jump/Break is IMO the best J/B around in that price range.

I'm not trying to argue with anyone. I just believe that when you start thinking about different weights being better for different kinds of shots, you are spending a lot of mental energy on something that isn't going to offer any significant substance to improving your game. In business terms, the return on investment doesn't justify it.

I won't give you any of my BS about stroke. I'll save that for when someone starts a stroke thread. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Also, I haven't sold cues or equipment in over a year. I do have a full time job in transportation, and a part time job as an instructor. But I never saw a conflict with selling cues and teaching pool. When someone wants my opinion in either area, I will give them an honest answer.
We both know that having quality equipment allows the player to learn how the equipment responds in given situations, and how to make use of that knowledge.

And yeah, I'm a much nicer person in person! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Steve

dr_dave
12-14-2007, 06:50 PM
Steve,

Excellent post. Good information (IMHO) ... and I like your straightforward style and appropriate sense of humor. I bet you are a great instructor.

Happy Holidays,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> My biggest problem with forums like this is how things can so easily be misunderstood. First of all, if something I wrote came across as rude, I apologize. I'm just trying to clarify my opinion.

Let's forget break cues and break shots for a minute. The original post was about what weight playing cue to get.
1. I believe the best weight for any player is the weight that feels most comfortable for all types of shots.
2. I believe that different weights can produce slightly different results, but those differences are so slight that most good players can adapt their stroke to get the desired results regardless of the chosen weight.
3. While a long draw shot does require more speed than a shorter one (adjusting speed and or spin is the only way to control draw)we still don't need to use maximum (break) speed even for maximum draw. For that reason, I think any good player can get the required speed with any weight cue. Those same players would be able to adjust their stroke to compensate for the weight differences in various cues.
4. Since over the course of a game, a player will need to vary speed and spin from shot to shot, the most comfortable weight to the individual player makes the most sense to me. It's easier to make slight adjustments to speed and spin with a well balanced comfortable cue. You can establish a centergistic or reference point for a stroke speed follow shot, then work from there to know what is needed when you need to do something else with the cue ball.
5. I totally agree that my Fury Jump/Break is IMO the best J/B around in that price range.

I'm not trying to argue with anyone. I just believe that when you start thinking about different weights being better for different kinds of shots, you are spending a lot of mental energy on something that isn't going to offer any significant substance to improving your game. In business terms, the return on investment doesn't justify it.

I won't give you any of my BS about stroke. I'll save that for when someone starts a stroke thread. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Also, I haven't sold cues or equipment in over a year. I do have a full time job in transportation, and a part time job as an instructor. But I never saw a conflict with selling cues and teaching pool. When someone wants my opinion in either area, I will give them an honest answer.
We both know that having quality equipment allows the player to learn how the equipment responds in given situations, and how to make use of that knowledge.

And yeah, I'm a much nicer person in person! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Artemus
12-14-2007, 06:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> My biggest problem with forums like this is how things can so easily be misunderstood. First of all, if something I wrote came across as rude, I apologize. I'm just trying to clarify my opinion.

<font color="red"> Agreed. Me too. </font color>

Let's forget break cues and break shots for a minute. The original post was about what weight playing cue to get.
1. I believe the best weight for any player is the weight that feels most comfortable for all types of shots.

<font color="red"> Agreed up to a point. I say performance based on the skill level of the player. When it's a good, decent or really dynamite player, who cares what they play with?! </font color>
2. I believe that different weights can produce slightly different results, but those differences are so slight that most good players can adapt their stroke to get the desired results regardless of the chosen weight.

<font color="red"> Agreed again, but your magic words were GOOD PLAYERS. </font color>
3. While a long draw shot does require more speed than a shorter one (adjusting speed and or spin is the only way to control draw)we still don't need to use maximum (break) speed even for maximum draw. For that reason, I think any good player can get the required speed with any weight cue. Those same players would be able to adjust their stroke to compensate for the weight differences in various cues.

<font color="red"> Agreed again. Magic words are GOOD PLAYERS and those SAME PLAYERS. I do know for a fact that some artistic pool players demand light weight cues to perform ultimate draw and spin shots. They're also sporty players. </font color>
4. Since over the course of a game, a player will need to vary speed and spin from shot to shot, the most comfortable weight to the individual player makes the most sense to me. It's easier to make slight adjustments to speed and spin with a well balanced comfortable cue. You can establish a centergistic or reference point for a stroke speed follow shot, then work from there to know what is needed when you need to do something else with the cue ball.

<font color="red"> Agreed again. (this is getting monotonous) </font color>
5. I totally agree that my Fury Jump/Break is IMO the best J/B around in that price range.
(I'm glad you agree. Again we agree)

I'm not trying to argue with anyone. I just believe that when you start thinking about different weights being better for different kinds of shots, you are spending a lot of mental energy on something that isn't going to offer any significant substance to improving your game.

<font color="red"> Nobody ever stated that, not JAL, not Mike Page and not I. Don't read something into it that isn't there. It was ONLY one or two different shots that weight matters but only for discussion and comparison. And it does exist. I've gone in the opposite direction in the choice my break cue from what I was pointing out. I could care less, but it does exist. </font color>


I won't give you any of my BS about stroke. I'll save that for when someone starts a stroke thread. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Also, I haven't sold cues or equipment in over a year. I do have a full time job in transportation, and a part time job as an instructor. But I never saw a conflict with selling cues and teaching pool. When someone wants my opinion in either area, I will give them an honest answer.
We both know that having quality equipment allows the player to learn how the equipment responds in given situations, and how to make use of that knowledge.

And yeah, I'm a much nicer person in person! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

I'm sure you are because we've spoken to each other and got along just dandy. (I was just on my best behavior though) LMAO /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

pooltchr
12-14-2007, 08:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Steve,

Excellent post. Good information (IMHO) ... and I like your straightforward style and appropriate sense of humor. I bet you are a great instructor.

Happy Holidays,
Dave

<hr /></blockquote>

Thank you! And Happy Holidays to you as well.
Steve

pooltchr
12-14-2007, 09:03 PM
In most cases, I think in this forum, we are dealing with good players. If they aren't, they wouldn't even be here asking these questions. They would be out shooting with their Wal-Mart cues. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Peace!
Steve

New2Pool
12-15-2007, 12:03 PM
Speaking as a total beginner, the weight of the cue does not have a lot of effect on my shot either. The good players can adapt, the bad players usually miss the shot no matter what. But on the bright side, if I can't find a 19oz cue I use that as an excuse for every shot I miss! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

pooltchr
12-15-2007, 02:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote New2Pool:</font><hr> Speaking as a total beginner, the weight of the cue does not have a lot of effect on my shot either. The good players can adapt, the bad players usually miss the shot no matter what. But on the bright side, if I can't find a 19oz cue I use that as an excuse for every shot I miss! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Wait until you spend some time around here. You will have hundreds of excuses! The balls were too dirty, the cloth was too slick, the rails were dead, I had the wrong kind of tip, I had the wrong color chalk, the spin of the cue ball threw the ob off line, my shaft has too much deflection, my shaft doesn't deflect enough, and on and on.

Remember one thing. When all is said and done, the game comes down to you, a piece of wood, and some plastic balls. You only have control over Angle, Speed, and Spin. The simpler you keep the game, the easier it is.

I'm glad you have found the game that we all love so much. May your pool career bring you much joy for years to come.

Steve

Jal
12-15-2007, 06:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>Wait until you spend some time around here. You will have hundreds of excuses! The balls were too dirty, the cloth was too slick, the rails were dead, I had the wrong kind of tip, I had the wrong color chalk, the spin of the cue ball threw the ob off line, my shaft has too much deflection, my shaft doesn't deflect enough, and on and on.

Remember one thing. When all is said and done, the game comes down to you, a piece of wood, and some plastic balls. You only have control over Angle, Speed, and Spin. The simpler you keep the game, the easier it is.<hr /></blockquote>Ergo, we really have no need of instructors?

Jim

pooltchr
12-15-2007, 08:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>Wait until you spend some time around here. You will have hundreds of excuses! The balls were too dirty, the cloth was too slick, the rails were dead, I had the wrong kind of tip, I had the wrong color chalk, the spin of the cue ball threw the ob off line, my shaft has too much deflection, my shaft doesn't deflect enough, and on and on.

Remember one thing. When all is said and done, the game comes down to you, a piece of wood, and some plastic balls. You only have control over Angle, Speed, and Spin. The simpler you keep the game, the easier it is.<hr /></blockquote>Ergo, we really have no need of instructors?

Jim <hr /></blockquote>

If you think you have no need of instructors, you probably don't. Just be cautious about gambling with those who understand the need, and take advantage of what we have to offer.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Steve

Sid_Vicious
12-15-2007, 11:45 PM
Steve is in fact right, billiards-wise that is. sid~~~thinks steve's an complete neandothal beyond pool

av84fun
12-16-2007, 12:08 AM
Certainly, there is often as much disagreement in the scientific community as there is in the pool community, but in fact, researchers at Caltech believe they have solved the mystery.
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8382

In additionm, any theory based on current aerodynamic science attempting to prove that bees can't fly is fundamentally flawed. As a Private Pilot, I can attest to the fact that to this very day, there is disagreement among noted aerodynamicists as to exactly which forces contribute to lift and in what proportion.

(-:

pooltchr
12-16-2007, 07:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Steve is in fact right, billiards-wise that is. sid~~~thinks steve's an complete neandothal beyond pool <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks Sid. I think you are alright too...regardless of what your mother says! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Steve

canadan
12-16-2007, 12:06 PM
I took the bolt right out of my cue...it moved the balance point closer to the butt...also less cue deflection on somewhat harder hit shots...more draw control...good feel on follow...but the less cue deflection is one of the bigger bonuses to me...

Artemus
12-16-2007, 12:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote canadan:</font><hr> I took the bolt right out of my cue...it moved the balance point closer to the butt <hr /></blockquote>

Do they make cues differently in Canada? How does removing the weight bolt get the balance to go more toward the butt? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

canadan
12-16-2007, 03:57 PM
haha good point eh!..feels more ballenced haha..