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Qtec
12-17-2007, 06:01 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The New York Times has some new and very disturbing revelations in the NSA warrantless wiretapping controversy. The news may explain why the telecoms are fighting so hard for retroactivity immunity in the planned FISA law revision.

To detect narcotics trafficking, for example, the government has been collecting the phone records of thousands of Americans and others inside the United States who call people in Latin America, according to several government officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the program remains classified. But in 2004, one major phone carrier balked at turning over its customers’ records. Worried about possible privacy violations or public relations problems, company executives declined to help the operation, which has not been previously disclosed.

In a separate N.S.A. project, executives at a Denver phone carrier, Qwest, refused in early 2001 to give the agency access to their most localized communications switches, which primarily carry domestic calls, according to people aware of the request, which has not been previously reported. They say the arrangement could have permitted neighborhood-by-neighborhood surveillance of phone traffic without a court order, which alarmed them. <hr /></blockquote>

Bush, [ QUOTE ]
In the weeks following the terrorist attacks on our nation, I authorized the National Security Agency, consistent with U.S. law and the Constitution, to intercept the international communications of people with known links to al Qaeda and related terrorist organizations. Before we intercept these communications, the government must have information that establishes a clear link to these terrorist networks.

This is a highly classified program that is crucial to our national security. Its purpose is to detect and prevent terrorist attacks against the United States, our friends and allies. Yesterday the existence of this secret program was revealed in media reports, after being improperly provided to news organizations. As a result, our enemies have learned information they should not have, and the unauthorized disclosure of this effort damages our national security and puts our citizens at risk. Revealing classified information is illegal, alerts our enemies, and endangers our country. <hr /></blockquote>

????

If no crimes were committed, why do they now want immunity?

Q...............

wolfdancer
12-17-2007, 03:21 PM
The problem with that is that it becomes even more intrusive, as more "threats to America" groups are added like... liberals, or people who post against this or a future administration. Placing that power to bypass the laws preventing abuses, in the hands of those that would use that to further their own agendas....it reminds me of the HUAC hearings and Sen. Joe....where you were guilty by association; guilty if Sen. Joe thought you were guilty.
The Bush administration continues to be the greatest threat to the Constitution, since it was introduced. The worst President, the worst administration, ever....I doubt if we can undo the damage he has caused, including bankrupting the country....

bamadog
12-17-2007, 03:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> The problem with that is that it becomes even more intrusive, as more "threats to America" groups are added like... liberals, or people who post against this or a future administration. Placing that power to bypass the laws preventing abuses, in the hands of those that would use that to further their own agendas....it reminds me of the HUAC hearings and Sen. Joe....where you were guilty by association; guilty if Sen. Joe thought you were guilty.
The Bush administration continues to be the greatest threat to the Constitution, since it was introduced. The worst President, the worst administration, ever....I doubt if we can undo the damage he has caused, including bankrupting the country.... <hr /></blockquote>

Please read some history, and inform yourself.
Sen. McCarthy had nothing to do with HUAC.

wolfdancer
12-17-2007, 03:38 PM
Like many who were disgusted by Sen Joe...I tend to lump the hearings and him in the same group. People's lives were destroyed by allegations....the same type of crap that extremists like you try to infer about others
But thanks for the correction....
"It now reminds me of the HUAC hearings AND that ***right wing a**hole Sen. Joe ****McCarthy"
Is that clearer?

Gayle in MD
12-17-2007, 04:07 PM
[ QUOTE ]
????

If no crimes were committed, why do they now want immunity?

Q............... <hr /></blockquote> LOL, good question. One might also ask, Valarie just a secretary,.... how'd she have authority to send people on junket?

Or....

many other such questions /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

LWW
12-17-2007, 04:15 PM
If you are so sure of your source then why no link?

LWW

LWW
12-17-2007, 04:17 PM
Yet it didn't bother when the Clinton's pulled 700 illegal FBI files AND used the same programs you detest to catch tax cheats?

Interesting.

LWW

LWW
12-17-2007, 04:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
????

If no crimes were committed, why do they now want immunity?

Q............... <hr /></blockquote> LOL, good question. One might also ask, Valarie just a secretary,.... how'd she have authority to send people on junket?

Or....

many other such questions /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>
Who said she was just a secretary?

LWW

bamadog
12-17-2007, 04:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Like many who were disgusted by Sen Joe...I tend to lump the hearings and him in the same group. People's lives were destroyed by allegations....the same type of crap that extremists like you try to infer about others
But thanks for the correction....
"It now reminds me of the HUAC hearings AND that ***right wing a**hole Sen. Joe ****McCarthy"
Is that clearer? <hr /></blockquote>

With your sloppy scholarship, I can see why you avoid fact based debates, and instead, confine yourself to calling people names.

Question: Was McCarthy right or wrong?
Were there Soviet spies in high positions in the US Govt.?

Qtec
12-17-2007, 06:27 PM
For someone who professes to have a high IQ ,you are drastically incompetent in research. A simple Google of the first sentence is enough to find the source. It takes about 3 seconds!

GW has said the wiretapping was SPECIFIC and only involved calls to known Al Q members- something which we now know is TOTALLY untrue. ie A LIE''

Q

hondo
12-17-2007, 07:20 PM
I really can't wait to see what kind of person idolizes
Joe McCarthy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Did you ever watch any footage of the smarmy little bastard?

Qtec
12-17-2007, 07:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Who said she was just a secretary?

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

Correct. She was not a secretary. She was a covert WMD specialist outed by the same Govt who proffes to support the troops.

Q

wolfdancer
12-17-2007, 07:28 PM
I've acknowledged my faux pas....but that doesn't destroy my side of the argument.
So far I haven't seen your "fact based" all knowing argumentative skills getting too much applause here. I really wouldn't want to "debate" you, even if I held all the "aces in the deck" I don't need to "win" anything from somebody I intensely dislike. I wrote in another post...after today, I won't even notice if you two are still on here, or have been forced to leave....

wolfdancer
12-17-2007, 07:30 PM
Q, i don't understand this being such a big deal, newsworthy, etc
I thought every time this criminal opened his mouth, it was to tell another lie

wolfdancer
12-17-2007, 07:33 PM
It's no wonder Condon used Sen. Joe as the bumbling a'hole in
"The Manchurian Candidate"

wolfdancer
12-17-2007, 07:36 PM
It's no wonder Condon used Sen. Joe as the role model for the bumbling, blow hard, a'hole in
"The Manchurian Candidate"
(Lww was born way too late for that)

Drop1
12-17-2007, 08:23 PM
Where you there?:I was.Did you sit at the hearings?:I did. Do you know people that were subpoenaed?:I do. I left the twilight zone along time ago,in my opinion,you have no respect for America. You are the type of person who would read a book on sex,and declare your self an expert on the subject,never having had sex,with another person.

Through widely publicized hearings, the use of unidentified informers, and reckless accusation, McCarthy doggedly pursued those whom he classified as Communists and subversives. Careers were ruined on the flimsiest evidence, and his methods came under increasing attack by the press and his colleagues. In Apr., 1954, McCarthy accused Secretary of the Army Robert T. Stevens and his aides of attempting to conceal evidence of espionage activities that McCarthy and his staff had allegedly uncovered at Fort Monmouth, N.J. The army, in turn, accused McCarthy, his chief counsel, and a staff member of seeking by improper means to obtain preferential treatment for a former consultant to the subcommittee, then a private in the army. After widely publicized hearings McCarthy and his aides were cleared (Aug., 1954) of the army's charges. However, in December the Senate, acting on a motion of censure against him, voted to “condemn” McCarthy for contempt of a Senate elections subcommittee that had investigated his conduct and financial affairs in 1952, for abuse of certain senators, and for insults to the Senate itself during the censure proceedings. After this rebuke, and with the Democrats again in control of Congress after the 1954 elections, McCarthy's influence in the Senate and on the national scene steadily diminished until his death. McCarthy's indiscriminate attacks gave rise to the term “McCarthyism,” which denotes similar assaults characterized by sensationalist tactics and unsubstantiated accusations.{Your forte Macho Man}

Drop1
12-17-2007, 10:42 PM
True,it was a different time,and America was a different place,and you did have to be there,to understand the fear,and how it was manipulated. I remember watching a television program, wherein all the neighbors were Communists. A lot of people rubbed elbows with,something that promised something better than what they had in the thirties. One of my favorites,called before the Committee,was Mrs George Bishop,a kindergarten teacher,accused of being a danger to the students,were she able to mold the minds of her students,or Mort Sahl,Steve Allen, Lucy Arnez,or Al Matthews,one of Chessman's first attorneys. That period of Kennedy's career left a ideological scar ,and showed him to be a real facisist. You mention Harry Bridges,a hero of mine...Dorothy Heally,his secretary was a person I knew for several years. We have to go back to Congressman Dies,to understand the thrust of anti communism,coupled with the Cold War,and above all,the paranoia,that was rampant...and the home bomb shelter mentality of the masses.

bamadog
12-18-2007, 12:29 AM
Very nice Harry. But when you copy something like this, it is customary to put it in quotes and cite the source.

Now, do you want to answer my question?
Was Sen. McCarthy right, were there, in fact, Soviet spies at high levels in our Govt. or not?

LWW
12-18-2007, 04:45 AM
I'm not even saying you are wrong. I'm asking HOW it is you KNOW this?

LWW

LWW
12-18-2007, 04:48 AM
So, you say Gayle is wrong? That's EZ enogh to believe.

WMD specialist? I'll buy that.

Now, how did she do this and remain covert? How was she covert when she was listed in the CIA directory? How was a covert overseas agent when she hadn't left the country in years? Why did the prosecutor not agree with your assessment of the law? Why didn't the authors of the law?

Inconvenient questions I know. I await your further obfuscation.

LWW

LWW
12-18-2007, 04:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bamadog:</font><hr> Very nice Harry. But when you copy something like this, it is customary to put it in quotes and cite the source.

Now, do you want to answer my question?
Was Sen. McCarthy right, were there, in fact, Soviet spies at high levels in our Govt. or not? <hr /></blockquote>
1-Plagiarism is again mistaken for thought here.
2-He doesn't have an answer with consulting someone to tell him what he thinks.

LWW

Drop1
12-18-2007, 09:48 AM
Right in what sense,all the information you need,if you need it, can be found on the net. Certainly two come to mind very quickly,but that is less than the two hundred,it is less than the army,it is less than the damage done to the country. Are you naive enough to think we don't have spys from several countries in the States today. Its nice to know you care more about the cup,than the contents. Would you like to see McCarthy back? Was Hiss guilty,based on your educated opinion. The Rosenbergs were. The country is always under threat,and must be guarded,but not at the cost of losing the patriotic soul of the individual. When we know the law,but not the spirit,we have lost. That day is rapidly coming.

Gayle in MD
12-18-2007, 10:02 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The Bush administration continues to be the greatest threat to the Constitution, since it was introduced. The worst President, the worst administration, ever....I doubt if we can undo the damage he has caused, including bankrupting the country....

<hr /></blockquote>

Guess you heard the latest, that the new A.G. instructed the C.I.A. not to cooperate with the congresss's investigations into the destruction of the torture tapes.

What's with the Republicans, and their love of torture? Even the animals aren't safe around them. Frist, bringing cats home as pets, and later chopping them up in his basement, Romney, tying the family dog on the roof of their station wagon on a road trip, in winter, now it comes out that Huckabee's son got kicked out of boy scout camp for hanging a dog!?????????? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif Jeeze, no wonder Barney is trying to run away!

I don't think they're going to get any money from PETA!

/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Drop1
12-18-2007, 10:04 AM
Bug,when you to going finish swallowing that rat? Care about the cup,and not about the contents,just like Macho Man. You two walk pari passu. Why don't you set fire to a tree,and try and figure out how it happened. I do have to say Bamadog makes you look like a house fly,when it comes to style,he has enough to fill the belly button of a flea,and you don't .You are just a pathetic blow hard coward,that never made it through public school. Get help Bug,get help.

DickLeonard
12-18-2007, 10:32 AM
Drop1 I was into pool heavily in the 50s, any truth that the Rosenbergs were innocent? I could probably Google but I like substantiated facts.

I just read read some of the notes, another frame up by the FBI. The crime Ethel was convicted of didn't carry a Death Sentence as punishment, but it was carried out anyway.

Let see what the aboys have to say.####

wolfdancer
12-18-2007, 10:53 AM
Hanging a dog, could be a bad sign from what I see on the crime shows....He could grow up to be a rapist, serial killer, or even run for office....

LWW
12-18-2007, 11:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>What's with the Republicans, and their love of torture? <hr /></blockquote>
So, are you advocating that sterner measures than waterboarding should have been used? According to recent reports many high ranking D's didn't think those measures strict enough ... until of course they could make political hay from a lie.

Where has your venom been against your beloved democrats who aided and abetted Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld with these hideous acts?

Your fans await your reply.

LWW

bamadog
12-18-2007, 11:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>
<hr /></blockquote>

Guess you heard the latest, that the new A.G. instructed the C.I.A. not to cooperate with the congresss's investigations into the destruction of the torture tapes.

What's with the Republicans, and their love of torture?

/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Gayle, the Dem leadership was just fine with enhanced interrogation techniques until they needed something to use against the President.
Can you say "hypocrisy"?

"Earlier this week, we learned that congressional leadership, Republicans and Democrats alike, had been informed in 2002 that the CIA had harshly interrogated high-value al-Qaeda operatives, using, among other methods, waterboarding. One of the Democrats in the room: Nancy Pelosi, the current speaker of the House.

This is, shall we say, intriguing, since Pelosi and her party have been until recently reaching new heights of sanctimony on the issue of torture and waterboarding.

There “was no objecting, no hand-wringing,” an official who was there told the Washington Post. “The attitude was, ‘We don’t care what you do to those guys as long as you get the information you need to protect the American people.’” Not only did Pelosi not offer a peep of protest, the Washington Post reports that at least two lawmakers (out of only a few present) pressed the administration about whether the methods were “tough enough” to get the job done. Either Pelosi asked the question herself, or she sat quietly while one of her colleagues inquired whether the screws were being turned tightly enough." (Jonah Goldberg)

wolfdancer
12-18-2007, 11:25 AM
The country is always under threat,and must be guarded,but not at the cost of losing the patriotic soul of the individual. When we know the law,but not the spirit,we have lost. That day is rapidly coming.
The thought for today!!!!

Deeman3
12-18-2007, 11:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> The country is always under threat,and must be guarded,but not at the cost of losing the patriotic soul of the individual. When we know the law,but not the spirit,we have lost. That day is rapidly coming.
<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Yes, but she won't be elected for at least another year! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color>

Drop1
12-18-2007, 05:06 PM
Dick,they never answer a direct question. I asked Bamadog a direct question about McCarthy. He could not respond,or would not respond. As I have said before,they care more for the cup,than the contents... they should be pitied,to be denied the ability of thinking. LWW doesn't warrant a thought,being he never had one of his own.

DickLeonard
12-19-2007, 07:46 AM
Qtec would you please post when George W Bush is caught telling the truth. That would be more newsworthy.####

Qtec
12-19-2007, 10:48 AM
web page (http://www.google.nl/search?q=executives+at+a+Denver+phone+carrier%2C+Q west%2C+refused+in+early+2001&amp;ie=utf-8&amp;oe=utf-8&amp;aq=t&amp;rls=org.mozilla:nl:official&amp;client=firefo x-a) Take your pick. It seems that before 9/11 the Govt was already intent on spying on American citizens.
The fact is, the Govt induced AT&amp;T etc to break the law- thats a crime in itself.

Q

Qtec
12-19-2007, 12:07 PM
web page (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10505574/)







Q