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jjinfla
12-25-2007, 06:55 AM
I had an epiphany. Ha Ha.

Anyway it came to me out of the blue why the average league player doesn't improve.

Just look where they are going for advice - their fellow teammates. How many times have you seen a 4 or 5 or 6 APA rated player trying to tell his teammate what he is doing wrong and what he "should" do. These are perpetual 4's, 5's, 6's who have been playing for years and can't attain a 7 or 9 level.

I would highly suggest that if you want advice on how to play the game only go to the very best players in the league - the 7's, 8's and 9's. At least then you will have a chance of getting the right scoop and not some BS. Of course you may find that they will lie (heavens, you mean pool players might lie?) so that you will remain a dud.

Even then these players are nowhere close to the pros in skill and or talent. But at least they have attained some level of success so they have a better understanding of how to play the game.

Next best is to spend some money and pick up some good books and instruction videos.

Then spend hundreds, even thousands, of hours studying and practicing.

The very best way to improve is to find a professional instructor (Like Fran) and sign up for lessons. At least you know that an instructor is really there to help you. And more important, they know what they are talking about.

Remember, everything you learn from an incompetent person has to be unlearned because most likely they really do not know what they are talking about. If they did then they would all be 7's.

Also, when you do take lessons keep your mouth shut and listen to what the instructor is saying and follow his advice. Afterall, you are paying for his/her advice, not to listen to yourself talk.

Excellence breeds excellence; mediocrity breeds mediocrity; failure breeds failure. So if you want to be excellent only go to excellent players for advice.

Jake

DennyS
12-25-2007, 07:07 AM
Nice post Jake and Merry Christmas!

Fenwick
12-25-2007, 11:46 AM
Well, I just got back to playing this past October after being out of the game for 25 + years. I think your point is valid and I would rate it 4 stars. Here is my story. I started practicing alone and trying to get me and my equipment back up to par. Still working on both. There is a house pro and a few retired pros in the house I play in. The AAA players were a bit stand off ish at first, some still are, so I ended up playing alone or anyone in the house from day one. My worst game is against the worst players, (some days), even though it's not for me to judge but sometimes we have to. I have since been lucky enough to bond with quite a few good to great players. After taking a good spanking I will ask for them to give a word or two of advice; never during the game. If they say they charge for lesions I tend to tell them to hit the road in as nice a way as I can. I don't want to burn Bridges anymore! The only exception is a former snooker player who like me is just getting back into the game who has a very keen eye and always has something constructive or a flaw to point out about my game. I have a hard time playing my A game against him simply because I can't bring out the killer instinct against him because he is becoming a very good friend. That is something I will work on to overcome.
"Also, when you do take lessons keep your mouth shut and listen to what the instructor is saying and follow his advice. After all, you are paying for his/her advice, not to listen to yourself talk." That Jake is very good and very hard advice to follow. Most of us when we are young wait to speak rather then listen. I'm still working on that one and I'm not young. The one question I would ask when taking lesions is; How So! If you don't understand what is being said you need to clarify IMHO.

pooltchr
12-25-2007, 01:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fenwick:</font><hr> The one question I would ask when taking lesions is; How So! If you don't understand what is being said you need to clarify IMHO. <hr /></blockquote>

If you have a good instructor, there should be a two way conversation going on. The trick is to try and limit it to the subject being covered at the time. You should feel free to ask any questions you have in order to make sure you understand what is being taught. Your instructor should also be asking questions to make sure you understand the concepts. If you aren't "getting it", you are foolish if you don't ask.

I think the point in the post was to remember you are paying your instructor to give you knowledge and information. Don't worry about trying to impress your instructor with what you know...be a sponge and try to learn everything you can learn from him or her.
Steve

1Time
12-25-2007, 07:12 PM
Where there's a will there's a way, but average players usually don't have the will. Most are satisfied repeating mediocrity. And those who are frustrated with their level of play are usually too prideful to learn from another. But then there are a few of a more humble breed who once finding a sincere enough desire to improve, will seek help with achieving a next level of play.

I played an average player last week on a bar box for a few hours and this guy could not stop complimenting my play. He was just so amazed at how good I was and how easy I made everything look. And I told him, "It looks easy because it really is easy". And he said a few times during our play "I'd give anything to be able to play like you do." So near the end of our play I called him on this and told him, "Look, I know your type, and not only would you not do anything to play like me, you would not even take the very first step to learn to play like me." And he asked, "What's that?" And I said, "You'd have to take a lesson, and I already know you don't have it in you." He said, "You're right. I'm not taking a lesson."

I had no such trouble asking better players for help, and I learned what I could from those who gave free instruction or sold it for cheap. Then once I got good enough to become a threat in local tournaments and the better players didn't want to help me anymore, I sat back and studied the way they shot and played. I would imitate their strokes and techniques and practiced them. I actually improved more from doing this than from all the direct instruction I received.

Fenwick
12-25-2007, 07:59 PM
I have to ask the question; am I on the right path or is there something I'm missing. Comments welcome.

Rich R.
12-25-2007, 11:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Excellence breeds excellence; mediocrity breeds mediocrity; failure breeds failure. So if you want to be excellent only go to excellent players for advice. <hr /></blockquote>
Jake, to follow your reasoning, I would come to the conclusion that I should take lessons from Allison Fisher, rather than Fran. Where, in reality, I suspect Fran is a much better instructor.

The only point I would like to make here is that an excellent player does not necessarily make an excellent instructor. Also, an excellent instructor doesn't necessarily have to be an excellent player. The best instructors have never been world champions.

1Time
12-25-2007, 11:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fenwick:</font><hr> I have to ask the question; am I on the right path or is there something I'm missing. Comments welcome. <hr /></blockquote>

You are generally on the right path. When you compete, separate it from friendship. Clarify its purpose as either social or competition. In practice you should strive for consistency and predictability in your shot making. Start with easy shots and move the cue ball around, and then move on to harder shots. At this point you should spend at least 5 times more time practicing and learning than you do competing.

Fran Crimi
12-26-2007, 07:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Excellence breeds excellence; mediocrity breeds mediocrity; failure breeds failure. So if you want to be excellent only go to excellent players for advice. <hr /></blockquote>
Jake, to follow your reasoning, I would come to the conclusion that I should take lessons from Allison Fisher, rather than Fran. Where, in reality, I suspect Fran is a much better instructor.

The only point I would like to make here is that an excellent player does not necessarily make an excellent instructor. Also, an excellent instructor doesn't necessarily have to be an excellent player. The best instructors have never been world champions. <hr /></blockquote>


I appreciate the thought Rich, but while I may not be a World Champion, I was a tour player for many years. Those who really know my game might even say there's a certain amount of excellence to it. For most of my life I was a player before I was a teacher. Most of my knowledge comes from my direct experience as a competitor.

Some people may be better communicators than others, but what good is a person who communicates well but has little information to share?

Fran

Artemus
12-26-2007, 07:51 AM
I think proper instruction can take anyone further down the line toward better play. But nobody has mentioned this and I really believe it to be true (although I'll get disagreement from all ends), and that is some people never get better than a certain level because they just don't have the hand/eye coordination and focus.

It all seems so easy, just put the stick in your hand, point it down the line, pull back your hand and return it back. But it requires intense, very intense focus and the ability to coordinate the movements to deliver it to a miniscule spot with just the right amount of speed.

Not very many can throw triple 20's at will in darts, not many fireball pitchers can find the strike zone or just off the strike zone by a hair to make batters swing and miss, not very many individuals across the world have the hand/eye coordination to strike a golf ball worth a darn, and not many can hit a baseball that's curving all over the place and zinging in at over 90 mph.
I don't care how many lessons a person takes in pool or how much time is devoted to it, it's either there or it ain't, at whatever level they rise to.

Rich R.
12-26-2007, 08:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Excellence breeds excellence; mediocrity breeds mediocrity; failure breeds failure. So if you want to be excellent only go to excellent players for advice. <hr /></blockquote>
Jake, to follow your reasoning, I would come to the conclusion that I should take lessons from Allison Fisher, rather than Fran. Where, in reality, I suspect Fran is a much better instructor.

The only point I would like to make here is that an excellent player does not necessarily make an excellent instructor. Also, an excellent instructor doesn't necessarily have to be an excellent player. The best instructors have never been world champions. <hr /></blockquote>


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I appreciate the thought Rich, but while I may not be a World Champion, I was a tour player for many years. Those who really know my game might even say there's a certain amount of excellence to it. For most of my life I was a player before I was a teacher. Most of my knowledge comes from my direct experience as a competitor.

Some people may be better communicators than others, but what good is a person who communicates well but has little information to share? <hr /></blockquote>
Fran, I meant no disrespect to your playing ability. I'm well aware of your long history as a touring pro player. However, to follow Jake's reasoning, we should all be knocking on Allison's door and begging for lessons. Personally, I can't agree with that reasoning, as I stated. You may not be a world champion player, but you are a world champion instructor.

On the other hand, from what I understand, Allison is a "good" instructor, but she is not a "great" instructor. Again, this is no disrespect to Allison.

The one and only point I am trying to make is that teaching ability doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with playing ability.

Fenwick
12-26-2007, 08:47 AM
Artemus;With all due respect. I agree, some people don't have the hand eye coordination. I have never been the best but I was a 4.5-5.0 Racket Ball Player, a Table 1 or 2 Table Tennis Player, a 200 average Bowler before resin reactive bowling balls and played Joe Cary, spelling, with a broken paddle and still won the game. I played darts for about a year and won a few small tournaments then lost interest. As far as Billiards I was a league All-star 8 ball player in the 70's and 80's, no big deal, table one Straight Pool player in the mid 60's but I would be lying if I said I could remember my high run. Could have been 123? Lost a few brain cells during the early 70's and mid 80's. In Boot Camp while I was down to 135 pounds, 1967, I'm 5'5", I carried my friend, 6'1", 185 lbs 100 yards on my back and finished in the top ten. I guess my point is I will not put limitations on my potential until I prove myself wrong. It isn't bragging if it's true but I'm not bragging! So I will most likely not be a pro but that doesn't mean I can't be one of the better players in my area or at least the best player I can be. I have only been back in the game 3 months and while I still think I suck there have been a few glimmers of hope and a few 20 something ball runs and a few run outs in 9 and 8 ball. I think the biggest mistake I have repeated was to underestimate people. I'm looking for help and I'm trying to help others in the process. I do welcome any positive encouraging comments. And to be a good teacher you must be understood, adapt to your students level of understanding and in Billiards and Bowling have a good eye IMHO.

pooltchr
12-26-2007, 08:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr>
Fran, I meant no disrespect to your playing ability. I'm well aware of your long history as a touring pro player. However, to follow Jake's reasoning, we should all be knocking on Allison's door and begging for lessons. Personally, I can't agree with that reasoning, as I stated. You may not be a world champion player, but you are a world champion instructor.

On the other hand, from what I understand, Allison is a "good" instructor, but she is not a "great" instructor. Again, this is no disrespect to Allison.

The one and only point I am trying to make is that teaching ability doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with playing ability. <hr /></blockquote>

Rich,
I think you are correct, for one very good reason. To be the best at anything, one needs to devote a lot of time and effort toward that goal. A world class player must be dedicated to improving their individual performance. A world class instructor must place their efforts in the direction of being an instructor.
As you stated, a great player can be a good instructor, and a great instructor can be a good player. It would be a rare individual that could excel at both.
Steve

Artemus
12-26-2007, 09:57 AM
Fenwick, 25+ years to be out of something is a LONNNNGGG time, I don't care what sport it is. Aging is a nasty thing and doesn't make motor functions any easier. If you ran 125 balls at one time, I think you have a lot going for you and you could make a decent comeback, however I'm going to be a little negative here and state that if you ever got up to running 75 balls again it would be quite an achievement. Name a top pro or world class athlete in ANY sport, take him away from it 25+ years and what do you think their chances are of regaining past levels. Ed Kelly was one of THE greatest players of his time and quit pool to work as a card dealer in Vegas. He came out of retirement a year or two ago to try his hand at pool and it wasn't even close. Not that he was a banger, just not a top player and knew that he never would be again.

I guess the only one who ever did it was Fast Eddie Felson. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

If you compete in tournaments or gamble, nerves are another factor that will take a toll on you differently from your youth. Good luck with your goal.

wolfdancer
12-26-2007, 02:21 PM
Is this an admission that while you could teach me to run 3 balls...you can't do that yourself? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I think you have only to look at baseball to see an analogy: the very best managers, were usually just avg. players...Frank Robinson, some former pitchers and catchers, being the exception.(IMO)
In golf, one of the reasons that players do not improve, is that while "unlearning" bad habits, poor swing mechanics, their game will suffer, go backwards.
I'd guess that pool is similar. From Chuck Hogan's observations, until you have internalized and replaced the old with the new...under the pressure of a game situation, you'll be caught between the two.

pooltchr
12-26-2007, 04:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Is this an admission that while you could teach me to run 3 balls...you can't do that yourself? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

Not quite, but I will readily admit there are several players around here who consistantly play better than I. A few of them have even asked me to help them improve. I have several former students who I would ask for a spot from if I were gambling with them. While I was busy teaching others, they were putting into practice the things I taught them. Personally, I haven't run a rack in over two weeks...but then, I haven't been in a pool room in over two weeks. I'll let you know how I do after this weekend when I start back playing again. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Steve

wolfdancer
12-26-2007, 04:58 PM
I'm sure that you'll do fine, even with the layoff. It's like falling off a bicycle, you never forget how /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Miller Barber refused to watch his amateur partners swing, in the pro-ams...because he was afraid their errors would somehow
creep into his swing. I can see where teaching pool, could adversely affect your own playing. Teaching forces one to concentrate on the game at the conscious level, while we all play our best, trusting our instincts and memory, our "inner game".

randyg
12-26-2007, 05:06 PM
I feel that the "average" player doesn't know how to practice.....SPF=randyg

heater451
12-26-2007, 06:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> I feel that the "average" player doesn't know how to practice.....SPF=randyg <hr /></blockquote>Average players that get better are no longer average, they are "Better-than-Average". Sorry, had to do the word-play thing.

Realistically, "average" covers a lot of ground, and anyone who doesn't want to increase their skill in pool (or anything, really), simply doesn't have the desire. That of course, is not saying anything different than already said, and although I might agree with the idea that middle-handicap players get aid from other middle-handicap players, if they have the ability to separate the chaff from the wheat, and the drive to focus, then, to mix another metaphor in, the cream will rise to the top!

I might also argue against the numbers game in handicapping as well, which leads to a false impression that a player might still be "average". I have personally seen 2-3 hcp players in TAP increase their mechanical ability and shotmaking skills greatly, yet continue to lose due to their opponents simply being better on some level--whether it's runout ability, defensive skills, "craftiness", etc. I have also seen very good players lose to highly-skilled, but lower hcp players, due to "early runout syndrome", where one player clears several balls off of the table, misses, and leaves more runout room for the other player.

Because it occurred to me: A friend of mine used to ask, "Ever notice, how most people are average?"



=========================

BigRigTom
12-26-2007, 06:29 PM
I believe that most of the average players that don't get better are simply satisfied to be at the level they are at or they think they are as good as they can be. They may not admit it, even to themselves, AND SOME OF THEM MAY NOT EVEN KNOW IT THEMSELVES.
I was probably one of those who thought he was as good as he could be..... until I started playing in an the APA and met people who actually knew the game the way it should be played. Then I started watching the pros on TV and finally stumbled across this forum. I started participating in boards like this one and then I began to realize how much I did not know. That made me want to learn.
Maybe some of those average players who are not getting any better just need some one to sit them down and have a little heart to heart talk. You never know what might light a fire in some people. Many average players will always be average players though and if they are knowingly happy at that level, that should be great, let them be average......someone has to be average....after all. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

pooltchr
12-26-2007, 07:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> I began to realize how much I did not know. That made me want to learn.
<hr /></blockquote>

That is the first step...understanding just how much there is that we DON'T know. Being willing to learn is the second step, and applying what you learn with perfect practice is the final step. I dare say most "average" players just don't get through all three steps. Those that do will rarely fail to see significant improvement.
As Randy said, knowing how to practice is one of the keys to improving...but actually doing it is also required.

Knowledge is only power when application is added.

Steve

bradb
12-26-2007, 08:10 PM
Yes the best way to get better is to learn from those who are better than you. Also "play" those who are better than you when ever you can, even if you have to play for money its worth it. I look at it as money for lessons. Get a spot and watch and learn, and pratice, practice, practice.

Thats not to say that advice is always worthless from lesser players, after you reach a certain level you know enough about the game to understand this. For instance any experienced player can see a flaw in another players stroke and point it out.

I do not beleive any "average" player (I assume that means mediocre) does not want to get better, probably the game is more a past time to them and they don't care about persuing it with the passion that it takes to excel in the sport. Its difficult and takes years to master pool playing unless one is a natural. -brad

Fran Crimi
12-26-2007, 08:47 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Fran, I meant no disrespect to your playing ability. I'm well aware of your long history as a touring pro player. However, to follow Jake's reasoning, we should all be knocking on Allison's door and begging for lessons. Personally, I can't agree with that reasoning, as I stated. You may not be a world champion player, but you are a world champion instructor.

On the other hand, from what I understand, Allison is a "good" instructor, but she is not a "great" instructor. Again, this is no disrespect to Allison.

The one and only point I am trying to make is that teaching ability doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with playing ability.

Rich R.
<hr /></blockquote>


Another thing to add to your comments, Rich, is that there are also good students and not so good students, just like teachers. Some students aren't as teachable as others. Even though some of the best players may not have been the best teachers, I bet they were the best students. A really good student will know how to extract information from a top player and then interpret it, especially if that top player isn't a good teacher.

So, to address Jake's comment about learning from the best players, my response to that would be yes, but only if you're a good enough student to know how to extract and then interpret information from top players.

Fran

Sid_Vicious
12-26-2007, 09:54 PM
Deep subject. Frankly though it is all in the importance you place on pool in your daily lives. Me, I guess I'm one who can't donate that much of my energy for getting to be a beater at the game. I am also guilty of having compasion for weaker players, even for cash, I have a weakness for letting the game get interesting and toss a massive lead away. Eddie in COM would say "NEVER, NEVER let up on somebody when money's on the line!", but that can't be the way I follow the inner personal interactions in the PHs. This, personally speaking is an achille's heel, yet is it? The biggest a-holes I know want to steal your "little money" at any cost, even cheating. I see their schtick, and reflect upon it.

Back to the topic though, average players stay average because they don't put themselves into serious competition and learn. Secondly, life in itself gets to tangled up, the job, the lost love, the tired body syndrome...all of it is a killer that a 16 year old who's unbeatable, does not have.

Next, if you don't have the natural mechanics, you are f**cked. You can practice 12 hours a day, take the best lessons available, and there just ain't no way "to be like Mike." The pool industry won't like this, but the average player is EXACTLY the ones whom they make their living on, and the average players HAVE to feel that there's a magic answer, be it advice from the so-called experts, or endless hours of practice, to feed the industry's kingpen. Bottomline is that you all have to know your place on the food chain, and adjust.

my advice, buy into money matches and wrangle an understandable spot against those whom regularly beat you and take your money. I'd have to say that these episodes are the best lessons one can get in pool. Gotta have your bullets and get posted money. Real money makes everyone more stressed, and pool is mostly a mental game.

Average players, IMHO, do not invest the real time from their daily lives to work at a game which I find a pastime. I am one of them, guilty as charged, but is it really all that important in the end?, not for me. Maybe someday I'll get serious, otherwise this is still only a game, to be played entirely for fun...sid~~~until someone pisses me off, then it'd be nice to have prepared a little better

Scott Lee
12-26-2007, 09:56 PM
...and to add to what pooltchr and Heater said, I can tell you, from the perspective of a full time instructor, that nearly ALL students believe they play better than they actually do. The ones that won't even consider lessons already KNOW that they play well (and as such, don't "need" lessons)! /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif LOL

Scott Lee

pooltchr
12-27-2007, 05:23 AM
Amen, Sister!!!!!
Steve

Fenwick
12-27-2007, 08:25 AM
I think you may be right. I might never run more the 3 or 4 racks. And I'll have to work hard to achieve that and I can live with that. But I have nothing but time to do what I could never do before; read, study, take lessons and perhaps have a mental game stronger then before. Back then there were no instructional Videos or DVD's and very few books on pool/billiards. And I'm studying the diamond system for the first time. I will report back at the end of this winter and let you know how I have or have not progressed. I do plan on playing until I can't hold a cue or step up to the table. I'll play 9 tournaments soon win or lose.

BLACKHEART
12-27-2007, 10:00 AM
I think the main reason that the average player stays average, is because they have grown up in LEAGUE play. If you grew up in a pool hall, you eventually began to play for money. It doesn't matter if it's dimes or dollars. There was a financial lose if you didn't get better, than the others. Today in league play, you can be the best level 3 player around &amp; you keep winning. You are not only content to stay where you are, you are proud of it...JER

Deeman3
12-27-2007, 10:19 AM
JER,

How very true. In addition, a night of pool in league play is perhaps 5 or 6 games. That was not even a good warm-up in a pool hall.

Cornerman
12-27-2007, 04:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> I think the main reason that the average player stays average, is because they have grown up in LEAGUE play. <hr /></blockquote>This reminds of something.

A couple of years ago, one of my teammates finally came up to me and ask for some advice on how to get better. I asked him a couple of questions:

Do you want to get better, get more consistent, or both?

The answer was both.

Then I asked him how often he plays.

"What, you mean practice? Never. I play once a week at league."

And that's that. A player can't expect to get consistent or to improve if he doesn't play constantly and for a reason. For some, league is a reason. For the average player, league isn't much of a reason to improve.

Fred

Billy
12-27-2007, 05:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> I had an epiphany. Ha Ha.

Anyway it came to me out of the blue why the average league player doesn't improve.

Just look where they are going for advice - their fellow teammates. How many times have you seen a 4 or 5 or 6 APA rated player trying to tell his teammate what he is doing wrong and what he "should" do. These are perpetual 4's, 5's, 6's who have been playing for years and can't attain a 7 or 9 level.

I would highly suggest that if you want advice on how to play the game only go to the very best players in the league - the 7's, 8's and 9's. At least then you will have a chance of getting the right scoop and not some BS. Of course you may find that they will lie (heavens, you mean pool players might lie?) so that you will remain a dud.

Even then these players are nowhere close to the pros in skill and or talent. But at least they have attained some level of success so they have a better understanding of how to play the game.

Next best is to spend some money and pick up some good books and instruction videos.

Then spend hundreds, even thousands, of hours studying and practicing.

The very best way to improve is to find a professional instructor (Like Fran) and sign up for lessons. At least you know that an instructor is really there to help you. And more important, they know what they are talking about.

Remember, everything you learn from an incompetent person has to be unlearned because most likely they really do not know what they are talking about. If they did then they would all be 7's.

Also, when you do take lessons keep your mouth shut and listen to what the instructor is saying and follow his advice. Afterall, you are paying for his/her advice, not to listen to yourself talk.

Excellence breeds excellence; mediocrity breeds mediocrity; failure breeds failure. So if you want to be excellent only go to excellent players for advice.

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

detemination and desire are the main issues

jmo

Sid_Vicious
12-27-2007, 05:44 PM
I've played for 50 cents within the last fews years, and indeed, that pennance of money does make a difference. I just do not understand players whom worry so much about putting something on their game, when at the same time these peeps will wager on horse racing and the slots. Hell, in a game of pool, you are in control. JM2C...sid

SKennedy
12-27-2007, 06:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> JER,

How very true. In addition, a night of pool in league play is perhaps 5 or 6 games. That was not even a good warm-up in a pool hall. <hr /></blockquote>

It always takes me 1 to 1 1/2 hours to get warmed up. However, at my advanced age, there becomes a very fine line between being warmed up and worn out!!

1Time
12-27-2007, 06:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> I've played for 50 cents within the last fews years, and indeed, that pennance of money does make a difference. I just do not understand players whom worry so much about putting something on their game, when at the same time these peeps will wager on horse racing and the slots. Hell, in a game of pool, you are in control. JM2C...sid <hr /></blockquote>

That's just it. They suck at playing pool so the odds look better when they're not so much in control of the outcome.

BigRigTom
12-27-2007, 06:18 PM
I grew up playing in bars, usually for a drink or a dollar. I remember when you could buy a beer for "LESS" than a dollar too.
The 1st league I played in was an in-house co-ed league in the Chicago area and the best player in that house league could probably not run 3 balls consistently.
Once I started playing in the APA and started to compete with players who knew the real game of pool (there are plenty of them in the APA too, regardless of how some consider the APA a bunch of average players) it became obvious to me that while I was a pretty good bar room player, I was no match for most of the APA regulars...even the 3's beat up on me with those safes. I am a fairly quick study though and I learned the value of a good safe the hard way so I don't easily forget the lesson.
League play has been good for me but I can see where it may tend to hold some people back.
Ultimately a player must see and accept that he doesn't know everything and then he can begin to learn if he wants to learn.
Some players will always be just average and that is just the way it is. Good instructors will probably never get the opportunity to teach that group because the group itself doesn't see the need to receive instruction. Every member of the group will probably have a unique reason if he can be convinced to share it with anyone. Most of the average players I know would not be interested in discussing why he is an average player because many times he won't even admit that to himself or herself since the tendance is not limited by gender.

SKennedy
12-27-2007, 06:30 PM
Tom, APA does have some good players....and like you I'm having a hard time getting beat by those who play "safe" better than I. Here where the "rednecks" live and when I grew up playing, you did not play "safe." You were always supposed to make a valient effort to make each shot. I'm starting to learn.
As for the BCA'ers making fun of APA.....I take pleasure in beating them often in local tournaments.

Sid_Vicious
12-27-2007, 11:28 PM
"Once I started playing in the APA and started to compete with players who knew the real game of pool (there are plenty of them in the APA too, regardless of how some consider the APA a bunch of average players) it became obvious to me that while I was a pretty good bar room player, I was no match for most of the APA regulars...even the 3's beat up on me with those safes"

And your point is??? Modern rules frined, but surely you prerared just a little. If not, well it's time to be very snakey with the safe game. You know better now, at least for your sake I hope you get wiser, you better soon or else go back to bar rules................festus

Sid_Vicious
12-27-2007, 11:46 PM
I must ask, what is meant by "if they're not so much in control of the outcome." Change or cash in a pocket only has both players thinking about the cash to grab. One worries, not somnething they are used to at the time, will be more outta control at the money ball or hitting and kick from a safetie. sid

Scott Lee
12-28-2007, 12:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> I think the main reason that the average player stays average, is because they have grown up in LEAGUE play. <hr /></blockquote>This reminds of something.

A couple of years ago, one of my teammates finally came up to me and ask for some advice on how to get better. I asked him a couple of questions:

Do you want to get better, get more consistent, or both?

The answer was both.

Then I asked him how often he plays.

"What, you mean practice? Never. I play once a week at league."

And that's that. A player can't expect to get consistent or to improve if he doesn't play constantly and for a reason. For some, league is a reason. For the average player, league isn't much of a reason to improve.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Great post Fred...so true!

Scott Lee

BLACKHEART
12-28-2007, 01:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> Tom, APA does have some good players....and like you I'm having a hard time getting beat by those who play "safe" better than I. Here where the "rednecks" live and when I grew up playing, you did not play "safe." You were always supposed to make a valient effort to make each shot. I'm starting to learn.
As for the BCA'ers making fun of APA.....I take pleasure in beating them often in local tournaments. <hr /></blockquote>

Recently I had a chance to educate a few young fellows, as to the FAULTS of "BAR ROOM RULES". When playing these "RULES" you don't have to hit a ball hard enough to catch a rail. In other words you can just bump a ball &amp; move it an inch. Leaving your opponent NO SHOT. If the opponant is on the 8 ball &amp; the 8 is in the kitchen you can DELIBERATLY shoot the Q ball into any pocket &amp; force the opponent to KICK at the 8. THIS IS WHY THE LEAGUE RULES WERE INVENTED. TO SAVE LIVES. In the old days fights were common, because of these very "NONE RULES". If you were to play an opponant who was well aware of these faulty rules &amp; you were playing for money, you would LOSE your shirt...JER

1Time
12-28-2007, 08:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> That's just it. They suck at playing pool so the odds look better when they're not so much in control of the outcome. <hr /></blockquote>
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> I must ask, what is meant by "if they're not so much in control of the outcome." <hr /></blockquote>
I meant average players suck at playing pool so their chances of winning money at gambling on their pool playing seems worse by comparison to gambling on events where they're not so much in control of the outcome like a horse race or the turn of a card.

Sid_Vicious, if you want more and better action with the average pool players, whom I used to refer to as fish, you'll have to get better at being more of an unknown and hustle them.

Billy_Bob
12-28-2007, 09:12 AM
The bad players don't do anything to improve!

No practice, never go to instructor, don't read books, don't watch instructional videos, etc.

One time I decided to help these players. I donated a copy of Dr. Dave's book to a local bar. And there it was sitting right over there. Everything they needed to know to drastically improve their games...

Well the ONLY players who looked at the book were the top players in the area! And then once these guys saw what was in the book, they studied it in detail. And they did not need to read the book as they were already very good players.

But not a one of the bad players even looked at the book. (Of course the better players were suggesting they read it, etc.)

Basically the bad players don't practice shots they are not good at. If they practice at all, they practice what they can already do.

I and others have suggested they practice simple things like follow and draw. It just goes in one ear and out the other!

The players who improve will shoot a shot, then miss the shot, then say "Hey I can't do that! I need to practice that shot..."

...Then they practice that shot over and over and over until they get good at that shot. They get books on pool and read them. They go to instructors. They ask better players questions about shots or discuss pool playing "how to". They get instructional videos. Ask questions on the internet, etc.

Perhaps it is "lazy" as opposed to "hard working"?

SKennedy
12-28-2007, 09:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> Tom, APA does have some good players....and like you I'm having a hard time getting beat by those who play "safe" better than I. Here where the "rednecks" live and when I grew up playing, you did not play "safe." You were always supposed to make a valient effort to make each shot. I'm starting to learn.
As for the BCA'ers making fun of APA.....I take pleasure in beating them often in local tournaments. <hr /></blockquote>

Recently I had a chance to educate a few young fellows, as to the FAULTS of "BAR ROOM RULES". When playing these "RULES" you don't have to hit a ball hard enough to catch a rail. In other words you can just bump a ball &amp; move it an inch. Leaving your opponent NO SHOT. If the opponant is on the 8 ball &amp; the 8 is in the kitchen you can DELIBERATLY shoot the Q ball into any pocket &amp; force the opponent to KICK at the 8. THIS IS WHY THE LEAGUE RULES WERE INVENTED. TO SAVE LIVES. In the old days fights were common, because of these very "NONE RULES". If you were to play an opponant who was well aware of these faulty rules &amp; you were playing for money, you would LOSE your shirt...JER <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> </font color> You are absolutely right! I can't tell you how many times I scratched on purpose when my opponent had the 8-ball in the kitchen. Of course, I always tried to make it look unintentional and always hit an object ball first. To do otherwise was just bad manners. And a rule to drive a ball to the rail? Never heard of it until league play....of course I had about a 27 year sabbatical from pool...
It's so nice to go just about anywhere and ask an opponent if they want to play by BCA or APA rules, etc. and they are familiar with the rules. Beats the heck out of the old days....in my opinion....
One big consequence of leagues and the last resurgence of pool....you can now play in some decent places. I use to play in some rough places where no one needed to quarrel about the rules to initiate an excuse for "killing" or at least a beating. Sometimes, just beating the local "hustler" and knocking him temporarily off "his" coin-operated bar-box table was enough....at least for the threat of death. Heck, now I remember why I quit playing once I became a "family" man.

bradb
12-28-2007, 02:01 PM
[/quote Blackheart)]

Recently I had a chance to educate a few young fellows, as to the FAULTS of "BAR ROOM RULES". When playing these "RULES" you don't have to hit a ball hard enough to catch a rail. In other words you can just bump a ball &amp; move it an inch. Leaving your opponent NO SHOT. If the opponant is on the 8 ball &amp; the 8 is in the kitchen you can DELIBERATLY shoot the Q ball into any pocket &amp; force the opponent to KICK at the 8. THIS IS WHY THE LEAGUE RULES WERE INVENTED. TO SAVE LIVES. In the old days fights were common, because of these very "NONE RULES". If you were to play an opponant who was well aware of these faulty rules &amp; you were playing for money, you would LOSE your shirt...JER <hr /></blockquote>

Amen to the above. I consider bar tables more a toy than real pool, but a while back some friends talked me into challenging this kid in a pub. I was watching him play and observed that he had no touch at all, he would'nt even make it to the first level in my league, but against my better judgement I played him. He broke and slammed the balls around like godzilla till he hooked himself and missed the ball completely. I picked the Qball up and proceeded with ball in hand. The kid came unglued and started yelling at me with a few choice words. So here I am a 60 year old soon to be grandpa in a disfunctional confrontation with some stupid kid in a bar. I put the ball down and walked away. Never again! brad
/ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

BigRigTom
12-28-2007, 05:06 PM
I still like the bar room pool table challenge with quarters on table type game.
You do have to be careful how you play and with whom and sometimes it is best to just walk away.
It is still a lot of fun to try to hold the table all night and play for a drink and drink all night free (sometimes). "Those were the days my friend, I thought they would never end. Those were the days. Yes, those were the days."
Am I giving away my age?

1Time
12-28-2007, 05:42 PM
I started out gambling at a trucker's / local's bar in Indiana and was holding quarter tables as long as I wanted and all around town within a couple years. This was a lot of fun and profitable, but the real competition was at the pool hall on the 9' tables.

wolfdancer
12-28-2007, 07:26 PM
Which is why I'm asking for 11/4 from you in our upcoming one-pocket match for respective paychecks.
I recently got a raise though from SS...after the medicare increase deduction, i came out $28 ahead...so If you didn't get a comparable raise...we may have to do a little adjusting...

wolfdancer
12-28-2007, 07:28 PM
perhaps you should then switch to lawn bowling, a most genteel
sport for your advanced age group, AND you'll finally be the guy wearing the white outfit.

bradb
12-28-2007, 08:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> I still like the bar room pool table challenge with quarters on table type game.
You do have to be careful how you play and with whom and sometimes it is best to just walk away.
It is still a lot of fun to try to hold the table all night and play for a drink and drink all night free (sometimes). "Those were the days my friend, I thought they would never end. Those were the days. Yes, those were the days."
Am I giving away my age? <hr /></blockquote>

I played the bar tables back in my youger days, I had so much change in my pocket I walked lop sided. I look at then more now as toys for the crowd that play on them. Actually every once in a while we play a team who has bar tables. Its amazing that even though I play mostly 9's I find the things a bit of a challenge especially the condition they are in.

Probably the biggest fights I've ever seen were in my home pool hall. Theres a game they call "Golf" on the Snooker table with about 8 or 9 people playing. To add to the difficulty they put pegs on the spots for penalties. At a dollar a stroke you can be down big time if you are last in the hole. The object is to hook the player shooting after you. Usually it gets pretty tense until somebody snaps, then its Katie bar the door! Two characters were fencing with their cues like Vader and Luke. Then this other wob starts throwing pool balls. I dived under my table as the bedlam turned into a full scale brawl. By some miracle no body was hurt... One guy did come back later that night and busted a coke bottle over another instagaters head. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Deeman3
01-02-2008, 06:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Which is why I'm asking for 11/4 from you in our upcoming one-pocket match for respective paychecks.
I recently got a raise though from SS...after the medicare increase deduction, i came out $28 ahead...so If you didn't get a comparable raise...we may have to do a little adjusting... <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> 11-4!!!! Hey, I believe the airfare for our match-up would kill any profit motives. Besides, if your gal gets elected, I'm gonna take retirement so I can bask in the glory of SS along with you. I think we'd be better off to partner our money and take on a couple of these young kids. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color>

CarolNYC
01-02-2008, 07:52 AM
Hi Jake,
I think the "average" player CAN get better ,if thats their goal-
When I started in April 99', my goal was to make it to the top 64 in Professional pool-yes, I made it to 56th,BUT, 6 long,long years later-to me,thats ALOT of time /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
yes, I was fortunate and blessed to be taken under wing by some of the best players (Tony Robles,Danny Barouty,Fran,Tiff,Mana,and the help of many here on this forum)
I was the type who HAD to practice,travel to tournament after tournament,join leagues 2 or 3x a week-and looking back, there were ALOT of SACRIFICES that were made /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

It comes down to discipline!You have to set a goal and stick with it-alot of people have jobs,do they HAVE the time ,do they have the finances,are they willing to sacrifice that time?
Average players are usually content where they are-I believe once someone puts there mind to it,they can achieve it /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Hope you had a nice New Year!
Carol

Deeman3
01-02-2008, 08:21 AM
Carol,

56th is a heck of an accomplishment. Most will never understand the effort and dedication that requires as well, as you said, having the time and resources to do it.

Most think it is a zen moment where you "learn the secrets" while people who have accomplished something, like yourself, know it is brutal practice, good instruction and heart. There have to be days when you feel top ten and those where you feel you can't make a ball as well.

Look at all the people who try but never get beyond the ability to pocket a few balls. If they are satisfied with that, and are happy, it does not matter. If they want to excel beyond that they probably need a good teacher and a long conversation with someone like you who has been there. I just wish the rewards better suited the sacrifice you and other players have made.

CarolNYC
01-02-2008, 09:14 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Most will never understand the effort and dedication that requires as well, as you said, having the time and resources to do it.

<hr /></blockquote>
Hiya Deeman,
How are you?
Its not only the sacrifices the player has to make,but,their families,too-my circumstances was already having a family (3 daughters,the youngest 11) ,so, their support and understanding played a very vital role in me acheiving my goal-
I can't tell you how many times my daughter and I were on planes doing her homework or in between matches,so, Im VERY proud of her for sacrificing for me /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif-was she happy? Hell yeah-she had the time of her life-she's been in places I wouldve never taken her if it wasnt for pool /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
And of course,a wonderful,supportive husband,who stood by me,no matter what,and dealt with my emotional up and downs-he gets a big trophy,ha haha!

You just have to find a way to care for your families well-being and reach your dream /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Were the sacrifices worth it? Yes,yes indeed-the great,great memories and friendships way outweigh the sacrifices /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
8 years ago I was "starstruck and ga-ga" to even attempt to talk to Dawn Hopkins,ha ha ha,now I spend weekends at her house,ha ha ha-the hardwork was well worth it!!!

[ QUOTE ]
There have to be days when you feel top ten and those where you feel you can't make a ball as well.
<hr /></blockquote>
Yes, a great feeling when you played a good match and yes-that dreaded brainfreeze,ha ha!

[ QUOTE ]
. If they are satisfied with that, and are happy, it does not matter. <hr /></blockquote>
ABSOLUTELY /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I just wish the rewards better suited the sacrifice you and other players have made. <hr /></blockquote>
Well, monetarily,it stunk,ha ha ha,but their is no price on friendships that were made and the journey /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Have a great New Year /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Carol

BigRigTom
01-02-2008, 11:29 AM
Quote CarolNYC
Well, monetarily,it stunk,ha ha ha,but their is no price on friendships that were made and the journey

Carol, to be a pro of any position or ranking is something to be proud of but to climb into the the 50's in todays talented ranks is really amazing. Congratulations!
A lot of people get hung up on the goal and destination and fail to enjoy the journey. I think that if you enjoy the journey even if the goal may be not reached, and the destination may be not arrived at.... the journey can still be a huge reward in itself.....making the effort and sacrifice worth the making.
Very few of us will ever know the satisfaction you must surely feel, but then few of us would be willing to pay the price you have in terms of dedication, determination, work and sacrifice. My hat is off to you.

CarolNYC
01-02-2008, 12:56 PM
[ QUOTE ]
if you enjoy the journey even if the goal may be not reached, and the destination may be not arrived at.... the journey can still be a huge reward in itself.....making the effort and sacrifice worth the making.
<hr /></blockquote>

That was GREAT,Tom-
Well-said /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif (that should be engraved in stone) /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

And "HATS OFF" to you and everyone else here, who continously offer help,knowledge and experience ,allowing others to achieve their goals /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Hope you have an excellent New Year!
Carol

canadan
01-04-2008, 09:38 AM
think the title should be why beginers cant get better...if you only play 4-5 games a week there is no way you can call yourself average...I say average player is someone that understands the game..IE safteys,kick,jumps,run a rack 1 in 20ish tries...

SKennedy
01-04-2008, 10:34 AM
Average player doesn't get better because he is "average." Unless his average status is temporary and he is on a learning/skill level curve. Some people just don't have the necessary skill set to be a good player. And many that do don't have the dedication to really excel.

I think your defintion of average is incorrect...in my opinion. I think your definition better defines an above average player.

1Time
01-04-2008, 11:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr>
I think your defintion of average is incorrect...in my opinion. I think your definition better defines an above average player. <hr /></blockquote>
I agree. I think of average as a fairly broad description of one's pool abilities. I'd say anyone capable of popping off a 3 to 6 ball run on a fairly open table in 8-ball is average. While someone who is a more of a run out threat is above average.

SKennedy
01-04-2008, 04:28 PM
I'm always a run-out threat. But sometimes I can't get the job done with just 1 ball and the 8-ball left on the table. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

1Time
01-04-2008, 06:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> I'm always a run-out threat. But sometimes I can't get the job done with just 1 ball and the 8-ball left on the table. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>
Said an average pool player. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Sid_Vicious
01-04-2008, 08:27 PM
I have re-thunk my answer...it all comes down to why you really play this game. If anyone, in any class, really plays for personal inner-self improvement, they will improve. Getting better to win cash, beat their rivals, or win anything for glory...you'll fail. The best example IMHO is Spiderman. He makes it supreme to be at his best, while at the same time he is far in front of the field "today." If you don't play for yourself and are not determined, unemotionally to do just that, then there's a distraction and a weakness...sid

CarolNYC
01-05-2008, 06:04 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Said an average pool player. <hr /></blockquote>
Ha Ha Ha Ha-I dont know about that-he just got lessons /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

SKennedy
01-07-2008, 01:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Said an average pool player. <hr /></blockquote>
Ha Ha Ha Ha-I dont know about that-he just got lessons /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>

What? One lesson with Scott and I'm still "average?" What more have I got to do other than pay my APA dues?
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I will certainly agree that I'm an "average" player....no doubt about that, but average is relative. Compared to others on this web site I may rank below average. At some of the pool halls here in town, I would be rated "above-average" by many players who frequent them. But as an average player, I love playing (and sometimes beating) better players. And I strive to improve my game within constraints of my ability, time, and opportunities. For those of you who like to make money wagering on your abilities at the table, it's those players who think too highly of themselves that help you make your rent. And there are plenty of them out there. On the other hand, I'm old and experienced enough to know there are many, many players out there that are much better than I. However, if it won't cost me too much (and that's not much) I'd play against any of you. I just may never get a turn at the table....or at least my turns will be very brief! Damn it's hard to admit to yourself you are just "average!" /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Qtec
01-07-2008, 09:07 PM
The average player is concerned with short term goals. He wants immediate results.
He never practices in a methodical manner or even with a purpose except to pot all the balls- even if it takes hours!

Its not a lot of fun playing the same shot over and over so only the truly dedicated do it.
The average player plays for the fun, not the glory.

Q...........

CarolNYC
01-08-2008, 05:07 AM
[ QUOTE ]
However, if it won't cost me too much (and that's not much) I'd play against any of you. I just may never get a turn at the table....or at least my turns will be very brief! Damn it's hard to admit to yourself you are just "average!"
<hr /></blockquote>
Well then, I hope you can rack good,ha ha ha (just kidding)

I think someone said something about "what is an average player" so, that should have been defined /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Im just happy for you that you had such a nice experience with Scott-it seems everyone who has had an oppportunity to train with him, has the same, and its nice that you shared it /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
. And I strive to improve my game within constraints of my ability, time, and opportunities. <hr /></blockquote>
An there it is-I think this is one criteria that puts you in the "above average",but then again, I really dont know WHAT average is /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Stay well! and good-going!
Carol

randyg
01-08-2008, 07:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> I have re-thunk my answer...it all comes down to why you really play this game. If anyone, in any class, really plays for personal inner-self improvement, they will improve. Getting better to win cash, beat their rivals, or win anything for glory...you'll fail. The best example IMHO is Spiderman. He makes it supreme to be at his best, while at the same time he is far in front of the field "today." If you don't play for yourself and are not determined, unemotionally to do just that, then there's a distraction and a weakness...sid <hr /></blockquote>

SID: This is one of the best posts you have ever typed....SPF=randyg

SKennedy
01-08-2008, 09:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Well then, I hope you can rack good,ha ha ha (just kidding)

<hr /></blockquote>

In a recent play-off, my opponent checked my rack....twice! The second time he did compliment me on both racks. Unfortunately, I have had plenty of practice in that department. The next time he racked and right before I broke I asked him if I needed to check his rack. He quit worrying about racks after that. I was a lower skilled player and jumped on him the first 2 games. We both ended up on the hill and I lost the match. So, I may be an average pool player, but I'm an above average racker!

SpiderMan
01-08-2008, 10:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Deep subject. Frankly though it is all in the importance you place on pool in your daily lives. Me, I guess I'm one who can't donate that much of my energy for getting to be a beater at the game. I am also guilty of having compasion for weaker players, even for cash, I have a weakness for letting the game get interesting and toss a massive lead away. Eddie in COM would say "NEVER, NEVER let up on somebody when money's on the line!", but that can't be the way I follow the inner personal interactions in the PHs. This, personally speaking is an achille's heel, yet is it? The biggest a-holes I know want to steal your "little money" at any cost, even cheating. I see their schtick, and reflect upon it.

Back to the topic though, average players stay average because they don't put themselves into serious competition and learn. Secondly, life in itself gets to tangled up, the job, the lost love, the tired body syndrome...all of it is a killer that a 16 year old who's unbeatable, does not have.

Next, if you don't have the natural mechanics, you are f**cked. You can practice 12 hours a day, take the best lessons available, and there just ain't no way "to be like Mike." The pool industry won't like this, but the average player is EXACTLY the ones whom they make their living on, and the average players HAVE to feel that there's a magic answer, be it advice from the so-called experts, or endless hours of practice, to feed the industry's kingpen. Bottomline is that you all have to know your place on the food chain, and adjust.

my advice, buy into money matches and wrangle an understandable spot against those whom regularly beat you and take your money. I'd have to say that these episodes are the best lessons one can get in pool. Gotta have your bullets and get posted money. Real money makes everyone more stressed, and pool is mostly a mental game.

Average players, IMHO, do not invest the real time from their daily lives to work at a game which I find a pastime. I am one of them, guilty as charged, but is it really all that important in the end?, not for me. Maybe someday I'll get serious, otherwise this is still only a game, to be played entirely for fun...sid~~~until someone pisses me off, then it'd be nice to have prepared a little better <hr /></blockquote>

I love this post. And it mentions something that most do not think about - the importance of natural ability. Think about it - most world-beaters become so in their twenties.

If I didn't need to work, and didn't defer pool to other aspects of life (and didn't get run over on my motorcycle by licenseless, insuranceless, illegal immigrants), I know I could improve much faster with an intense practice regimen. But I also concede that twenty years of the best instruction and practice probably wouldn't have me playing like Sigel. I might be shortstop material, but I don't have time to find out.

On the importance of natural ability, I once read a profound statement that was not adressing pool in particular, but skill sports (tennis, bowling, billiards, etc) in general. It went something like this: "If you are not playing at the professional (world class) level after seven years of concentrated effort, you never will."

Probably anyone's game can improve with practice and $1,000 in private lessons, but the unknown is "how much?". For most of us, the ceiling will be far below the summit. We just have to accept that, and improve/enjoy regardless.

SpiderMan

SKennedy
01-08-2008, 10:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Deep subject. Frankly though it is all in the importance you place on pool in your daily lives. Me, I guess I'm one who can't donate that much of my energy for getting to be a beater at the game. I am also guilty of having compasion for weaker players, even for cash, I have a weakness for letting the game get interesting and toss a massive lead away. Eddie in COM would say "NEVER, NEVER let up on somebody when money's on the line!", but that can't be the way I follow the inner personal interactions in the PHs. This, personally speaking is an achille's heel, yet is it? The biggest a-holes I know want to steal your "little money" at any cost, even cheating. I see their schtick, and reflect upon it.

Back to the topic though, average players stay average because they don't put themselves into serious competition and learn. Secondly, life in itself gets to tangled up, the job, the lost love, the tired body syndrome...all of it is a killer that a 16 year old who's unbeatable, does not have.

Next, if you don't have the natural mechanics, you are f**cked. You can practice 12 hours a day, take the best lessons available, and there just ain't no way "to be like Mike." The pool industry won't like this, but the average player is EXACTLY the ones whom they make their living on, and the average players HAVE to feel that there's a magic answer, be it advice from the so-called experts, or endless hours of practice, to feed the industry's kingpen. Bottomline is that you all have to know your place on the food chain, and adjust.

my advice, buy into money matches and wrangle an understandable spot against those whom regularly beat you and take your money. I'd have to say that these episodes are the best lessons one can get in pool. Gotta have your bullets and get posted money. Real money makes everyone more stressed, and pool is mostly a mental game.

Average players, IMHO, do not invest the real time from their daily lives to work at a game which I find a pastime. I am one of them, guilty as charged, but is it really all that important in the end?, not for me. Maybe someday I'll get serious, otherwise this is still only a game, to be played entirely for fun...sid~~~until someone pisses me off, then it'd be nice to have prepared a little better <hr /></blockquote>

I love this post. And it mentions something that most do not think about - the importance of natural ability. Think about it - most world-beaters become so in their twenties.

If I didn't need to work, and didn't defer pool to other aspects of life (and didn't get run over on my motorcycle by licenseless, insuranceless, illegal immigrants), I know I could improve much faster with an intense practice regimen. But I also concede that twenty years of the best instruction and practice probably wouldn't have me playing like Sigel. I might be shortstop material, but I don't have time to find out.

On the importance of natural ability, I once read a profound statement that was not adressing pool in particular, but skill sports (tennis, bowling, billiards, etc) in general. It went something like this: "If you are not playing at the professional (world class) level after seven years of concentrated effort, you never will."

Probably anyone's game can improve with practice and $1,000 in private lessons, but the unknown is "how much?". For most of us, the ceiling will be far below the summit. We just have to accept that, and improve/enjoy regardless.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Great posts by both of you. Thanks for what I believe is truthful and real input for any young folks out there just getting into the game. .....Sounds like Sid is not so "vicious" after all. Hope he would have mercy on me too!

CarolNYC
01-10-2008, 05:20 AM
[ QUOTE ]
but I'm an above average racker <hr /></blockquote>
Well, Im a pro-racker,then,ha ha ha!I've also had ALOT of experience in this field /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
[ QUOTE ]
I asked him if I needed to check his rack <hr /></blockquote>
Check the rack anyway-its no disrespect to do that-its at your advantage to do it-sometimes balls settle after the racker walks away,even though he gave you a good rack!
Stay well!
Carol