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Kutter
12-25-2007, 11:38 AM
To make a stun shot, how would I know the CB has no spin when it contacts the OB? Is this determined only by speed of the CB getting to the OB? I'm a minimal force sort of shooter, where forward roll is almost always in play. If I am correct that bottom spin is needed to offset forward roll long enough for the CB to get to the OB, is practice the ONLY way to learn how much force to use or how much back spin?

killerstroke
12-25-2007, 12:01 PM
Practice, practice, practice is the only and best way to know how your stroke executes a stun. Instructors correct me if I am wrong. Stun occurs when the CB is in a slide or skid, between draw and follow. If you hit the CB in the center, you will almost instantly be in follow. Hold a ball in 1 hand representing the curvature of your tip, and hold a 2nd ball in the other representing the OB. Hold them side to side. In order to activate draw and skid you must hit below center, move the CB down what would be about 1/2 a tip. Physics now tells you the curvature, or top half of the tip, is below center can cause the CB to start by spinning backwards. Use a striped ball or the measles ball and shoot the ball from corner to corner to watch the draw, skid, follow sequence. Put the back to where you started from and place an OB where the skip happened in your sequence and shoot the same shot. IMO do not practice to stop the CB but to shoot the shoot the shot straight and make the CB replace the OB, it will do wonders for your game.

dr_dave
12-25-2007, 12:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Kutter:</font><hr> To make a stun shot, how would I know the CB has no spin when it contacts the OB? Is this determined only by speed of the CB getting to the OB? I'm a minimal force sort of shooter, where forward roll is almost always in play. If I am correct that bottom spin is needed to offset forward roll long enough for the CB to get to the OB, is practice the ONLY way to learn how much force to use or how much back spin? <hr /></blockquote>Youare correct. Bottom spin wears off to create stun, and knowing how much to use for different speeds requires lots of practice. FYI, you can find lots of illustrations, examples, and video links about the 90 and 30 degree rules in the perinent articles here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/index.html).

Regards,
Dave

cushioncrawler
12-25-2007, 06:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Kutter:</font><hr> To make a stun shot, how would I know the CB has no spin when it contacts the OB? Is this determined only by speed of the CB getting to the OB? I'm a minimal force sort of shooter, where forward roll is almost always in play. If I am correct that bottom spin is needed to offset forward roll long enough for the CB to get to the OB, is practice the ONLY way to learn how much force to use or how much back spin?<hr /></blockquote>One way to help judgement (during praktis) iz to hit the OB fullball -- here a stunned Qball will stop dead (so they say).

For other than fullball hits i guess there iz no way to know for sure whether the Qball haz/had perfikt stun. madMac.

Kutter
12-25-2007, 09:51 PM
Now I see where the CB with the stripe going around it would help in practice. If set up properly, I should be able to see (possibly) where the CB stops it's backspin and begins it's follow.

So practice is it. I would imagine if using such a ball and hitting it at different speeds, one should eventually get a frame of reference and begin trying to cause that stun point to occur where ever you want it.
Thanks

killerstroke
12-26-2007, 06:06 AM
By George I think he's got it. I practice this on a regular basis, especially the days, yes days, before a tournament. When I do go through this practice session I will shoot it over and over, anywhere from 5 racks and up. I am a fan of the teachings of Bert Kinister and this is what he has taught me. I can't thank him enough for the information he has taught me and what he has done for my game.

Billy_Bob
12-28-2007, 08:38 AM
You can use a striped ball instead of the cue ball for practice. Then you can see which way the cue ball is spinning or if it is sliding.

And of course if the object ball is a longer distance away from the object ball, you would need to start out with a backwards spin or draw. Then when the cue ball gets to the object ball, it will begin to slide and you will get a stun or stop shot.

So depending on the distance between the cue ball and object ball, you would need to hit the cue ball higher or lower so it is sliding at the time it hits the object ball.

The following helped me quite a bit. This is a good start to get in the ball park...

Stun (stop) shots...
(distance between cue ball and object ball)

1 diamond to object ball = center.
2 diamonds 1/2 tip below center.
3 diamonds 1 tip below center.
4 diamonds 1 1/2 tips below center.
5 diamonds 2 tips below center.

dr_dave
12-28-2007, 09:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Kutter:</font><hr>... If I am correct that bottom spin is needed to offset forward roll long enough for the CB to get to the OB...<hr /></blockquote>FYI, HSV 3.1 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/HSV3-1.htm) clearly shows the effect.

Dave

Kutter
12-28-2007, 10:57 AM
Not having any luck finding a CB with a stripe. Plenty of others, but not one striped.

Bob_Jewett
12-28-2007, 12:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Kutter:</font><hr> Not having any luck finding a CB with a stripe. Plenty of others, but not one striped. <hr /></blockquote>
While in general it is not recommended to use an object ball as a cue ball, for this brief test you might consider it. Object balls are physically more or less the same as cue balls except for the coloring, and they are much easier to get than specially marked cue balls.

12-28-2007, 12:44 PM
The Rempe training ball has some stripes to "read" backspin off of.

Reading chalk marks off of the english targets sets the Rempe apart from using a striped object ball.

Some people dont like it, but I feel I got my money's worth out of mine.

http://www.pooldawg.com/product/jim-rempe-training-billiards-ball

dr_dave
12-28-2007, 03:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Kutter:</font><hr> Not having any luck finding a CB with a stripe. Plenty of others, but not one striped.<hr /></blockquote>As Bob points out, a "stripe" (balls 9 through 15) can be very useful for practice for several reasons. See my July '06 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2006/july06.pdf) for illustrations and more info.

Regards,
Dave

Billy_Bob
12-29-2007, 09:49 AM
I have an "Aramith Pro Cup Cue Ball" on my table at home. This is the cue ball with the red dots on it.

This lets me see what is happening with the cue ball, although it is not as obvious as using a striped ball would be. (Can more clearly see what is happening using a striped ball.)

Here is a picture of one...
http://www.billiardclub.net/shop/spotted-ball-aramith-p-1263.html

12-29-2007, 07:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Kutter:</font><hr> To make a stun shot, how would I know the CB has no spin when it contacts the OB? Is this determined only by speed of the CB getting to the OB? I'm a minimal force sort of shooter, where forward roll is almost always in play. If I am correct that bottom spin is needed to offset forward roll long enough for the CB to get to the OB, is practice the ONLY way to learn how much force to use or how much back spin?<hr /></blockquote>One way to help judgement (during praktis) iz to hit the OB fullball -- here a stunned Qball will stop dead (so they say).

For other than fullball hits i guess there iz no way to know for sure whether the Qball haz/had perfikt stun. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

Probably the most used shot in snooker Mac. There's stun, stun back and stun follow. Its great for holding the ball from traveling very far. It used to be my best shot, I once ran 45 without ever going to the rail. On the 9' table i find it a bit harder to do as the shaved cloth has no nap. It took me a long time to learn to go to the rail and back on a lot of shots when I switched to pool.

A master at it was Thorburn, he could pick his way around the pack and get on the black with great accuracy. -brad

scaramouche
12-30-2007, 01:23 PM
Thorburn in action

Instruction
Stun Shot