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S0Noma
12-27-2007, 07:48 AM
The Fundamentalist Agenda

is absolutely natural, ancient, and powerful—but the liberal impulse makes us humane.
By Davidson Loehr

The most famous definition of fundamentalism is H. L. Mencken's: a terrible, pervasive fear that someone, somewhere, is having fun. There's something to this. Fundamentalism is too fearful, too restrictive, too lacking in faith to provide a home for the human spirit to soar or for human societies to blossom.

But there are far more fundamental things to understand about fundamentalism, especially in this age of terrorism. An adequate understanding also includes some inescapable and uncomfortable critiques of America's cultural liberalism of the last four decades. The attacks on September 11, 2001, provided us a rare revelation about fundamentalism that arrived in two installments.

First, we became vividly aware of the things some Muslim fundamentalists hate about our culture:

* They hate liberated women and all that symbolizes them. They hate it when women compete with men in the workplace, when they decide when or whether they will bear children, when they show the independence of getting abortions. They hate changes in laws that previously gave men more power over women.
* They hate the wide range of sexual orientations and lifestyles that have always characterized human societies. They hate homosexuality.
* They hate individual freedoms that allow people to stray from the rigid sort of truth they want to constrain all people. They hate individual rights that let others slough off their simple certainties.

Not much was really new in this installment of the revelation. We had seen all this before, when Khomeini's Muslim fundamentalists wreaked such havoc in Iran starting in 1979. We have long known that Muslim fundamentalism is a mortal enemy of freedom and democracy.

The surprise second installment came just a few days after 9 / 11 in that remarkably unguarded interview on The 700 Club when the Rev. Jerry Falwell told Pat Robertson, “I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way—all of them who have tried to secularize America—I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'” These men are so media-savvy it's amazing they would say such things on the air. But it's also remarkable because in their list of “causes” of the 9 / 11 attacks, we heard almost exactly the same hate list:

* They hate liberated women who don't follow orders, who get abortions when they want them, who threaten or laugh at some men's arrogant pretensions to rule them.
* They hate the wide range of sexual orientations that have always characterized human societies. They would force the country to conform to a fantasy image of two married heterosexual parents where the husband works and the wife stays home with the children—even when that describes fewer than 25 percent of current American families.
* They hate individual freedoms that let people stray from the one simple set of truths they want imposed on all in our country. Robertson has been on record for a long time saying that democracy isn't a fit form of government unless it is run by his kind of fundamentalist Christians.

Together, the two installments make vivid the fact that “our” Christian fundamentalists have the same hate list as “their” Muslim fundamentalists.

From 1988 to 1993, the American Academy of Arts and Sciences sponsored an interdisciplinary study known as The Fundamentalism Project, the largest such study ever done. More than 100 scholars from all over the world took part, reporting on every imaginable kind of fundamentalism. And what they discovered was that the agenda of all fundamentalist movements in the world is virtually identical, regardless of religion or culture.

They identified five characteristics shared by virtually all fundamentalisms. The fundamentalists' agenda starts with insistence that their rules must be made to apply to all people, and to all areas of life. There can be no separation of church and state, or of public and private areas of life. The rigid rules of God—and they never doubt that they and only they have got these right—must become the law of the land. Pat Robertson, again, has said that just as Supreme Court justices place a hand on the Bible and swear to uphold the Constitution, so they should also place a hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible. In Khomeini's Iran, and in the recent Taliban rule of Afghanistan, we saw how brutal and bloody this looks in real time.

The second agenda item is really at the top of the list, and it's vulgarly simple: Men are on top. Men are bigger and stronger, and they rule not only through physical strength but also and more importantly through their influence on the laws and rules of the land. Men set the boundaries. Men define the norms, and men enforce them. They also define women, and they define them through narrowly conceived biological functions. Women are to be supportive wives, mothers, and homemakers.

A third item follows from the others. (Indeed each part of the fundamentalist agenda is necessarily interlocked, and needs every other part to survive.) Since there is only one right picture of the world, one right set of beliefs, and one right set of roles for men, women, and children, it is imperative that this picture and these rules be communicated precisely to the next generation. Therefore, fundamentalists must control education by controlling textbooks and teaching styles, deciding what may and may not be taught.

Fourth, fundamentalists spurn the modern, and want to return to a nostalgic vision of a golden age that never really existed. Several of the scholars observed a strong and deep resemblance between fundamentalism and fascism. Both have almost identical agendas. Men are on top, women are subservient, there is one rigid set of rules, with police and military might to enforce them, and education is tightly controlled by the state. One scholar suggested that it's helpful to understand fundamentalism as religious fascism, and fascism as political fundamentalism. The phrase “overcoming the modern” is a fascist slogan dating back to at least 1941.

The fifth point is the most abstract, though it's foundational. Fundamentalists deny history in a radical and idiosyncratic way. Fundamentalists know as well or better than anybody that culture shapes everything it touches: The times we live in color how we think, what we value, and the kind of people we become. Fundamentalists agree on the perverseness of modern American society: the air of permissiveness and narcissism, individual rights unbalanced by responsibilities, sex divorced from commitment, and so on. What they don't want to see is the way culture colored the era when their scriptures were created.

Good biblical scholarship begins by studying the cultural situation when scriptures were written in search of their original intent, so that we can better discern what messages they may still have that are relevant for our lives. But if fundamentalists were to admit that their own scriptures are as culturally conditioned as everything else, they would lose the foundation of their certainties. Some scholars see evidence that St. Paul, for instance, had severe personal hang-ups about sex that may account for his harsh teachings about homosexuality and women. Many biblical scholars treat some of Paul's teachings as rants rather than revelations. But for fundamentalists, their scriptures fell straight from heaven in a leather-bound book, every jot and tittle intact.

Except for the illustrations I've added in laying out the agenda that the Fundamentalism Project discovered, you can't tell what religion, culture, or century I'm describing. The scholars discovered this a dozen years ago while they were presenting abstracts of their papers. Several noted that all their papers were sounding alike, reporting on “species” when studying the “genus” was called for, that there were strong family resemblances between all fundamentalisms, even when the religions had had no contact, no way to influence each other.

The only way all fundamentalisms can have the same agenda is if the agenda preceded all the religions. And it did. Fundamentalist behaviors are familiar because we've all seen them so many times. These men are acting the role of “alpha males” who define the boundaries of their group's territory and the norms and behaviors that define members of their in-group. These are the behaviors of territorial species in which males are stronger than females. In biological terms, these are the characteristic behaviors of sexually dimorphous territorial animals. Males set and enforce the rules, females obey the males and raise the children; there is a clear separation between the in-group and the out-group. The in-group is protected; outsiders are expelled or fought.

It is easier to account for this set of behavioral biases as part of the common evolutionary heritage of our species than to argue that it is simply a monumental coincidence that the social and behavioral agendas of all fundamentalisms and fascisms are essentially identical.

What conservatives are conserving is the biological default setting of our species, which has strong family resemblances to the default setting of thousands of other species. This means that when fundamentalists say they are obeying the word of God, they have severely understated the authority for their position. The real authority behind this behavioral scheme is millions of years older than all the religions and all the gods there have ever been. It is the picture of life that gave birth to most of the gods as its projected champions.

Fundamentalism is absolutely natural, ancient, powerful—and inadequate. It's a means of structuring relationships that evolved when we lived in troops of 150 or less. But in the modern world, it's completely incapable of the nuance or flexibility needed to structure humane societies.

Fundamentalism's conservative impulse wants stability in societies. Liberal impulses serve to give us not stability but civility: humanity. They do this by expanding the definitions of our inherited territorial categories. The essential job of liberals in human societies is to enlarge our understanding of who belongs in our in-group. This is the plot of virtually all liberal advances.

Giving women the vote eighty years ago expanded the in-group from only adult males to include adult females. Once that larger definition was established by liberals, conservatives began defending that new definition of the in-group rather than the smaller one. Likewise, the civil rights movement was a way of saying that our in-group was also multi-colored. Every liberal advance adds to the list of those who belong within our society's protected group.

While society is a kind of slow dance between the conservative and liberal impulses, the liberal role is the more important one. It makes our societies humane rather than just stable and mean.

But for the liberal impulse to lead, liberals must remain in contact with the center of our territorial instinct and our need for a structure of responsibilities. Fundamentalist uprisings are a sign that the liberals have failed to provide an adequate and balanced vision, that they have not found a vision that attracts enough people to become stable.

Just as it's no coincidence that all fundamentalisms have similar agendas, it's also no coincidence that the most successful liberal advances tend to wrap their expanded definitions in what sound like conservative categories.

John F. Kennedy's most famous line sounds like the terrifying dictate of the world's most arrogant fascist: “Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country.” Imagine that line coming from Hitler, Khomeini, Mullah Omar, or Jerry Falwell. It is a conservative, even a fascist, slogan. Yet Kennedy used it to effect significant liberal transformations in our society. Under that umbrella he created the Peace Corps and vista programs and through them enlisted many young people to extend our hand to those we had not before seen as belonging to our in-group.

Likewise, the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. used the rhetoric of a conservative vision to promote his liberal redefinition of the members of our in-group. When he defined all Americans as the children of God, those words could sound like the battle-cry of an American Taliban on the verge of putting a Bible in every school, a catechism in every legislature. Instead, King used that cry to include Americans of all colors in the sacred and protected group of “all God's children”—which was just what many white Southerners were arguing against forty years ago.

When liberal visions work, it's because they have kept one foot solidly in our deep territorial impulses with the other foot free to push the margin, to expand the definition of those who belong in “our” territory.

When liberal visions fail, it is often because they fail to achieve just this kind of balance between our conservative impulses and our liberal needs.

Over the past half century, many of our liberal visions have been too narrow, too self-absorbed, too unbalanced. This imbalance has been a key factor in triggering recent fundamentalist uprisings. When liberals don't lead well, others don't follow. And when society doesn't follow liberal visions, liberals haven't led.

When liberals burned the U.S. flag during the Vietnam War rather than waving it and insisting that America live up to its great tradition, they lost the most powerful territorial symbol in our culture and with it the ability to speak for our national interests. They created another moral imbalance by defining abortion in amoral terms, as simply a matter of individual rights—where only the mother, but not the developing baby, was an “individual.” And they did the same whenever they emphasized individual rights while neglecting the need to balance rights with individual responsibilities toward the larger society.

Fundamentalist uprisings are happen ing in some Muslim societies that hate the influence our culture is having on their own. But the uprising is happening within our own culture, too.

In Texas, where I live, the state has refused to grant the Ethical Society in Austin a church tax exemption because its members don't believe in God. The state maintains that defining God as a concept won't do, that to qualify as a church the society's members must believe in God as a being. The case has been through two appeals, and the state's attorneys have now taken it to the Texas Supreme Court. If the state wins, the ruling will affect every Unitarian Universalist church in the state—not to mention Buddhists, Taoists, and Hindus. Austin has the largest Hindu temple in North America, and Hindus are quite clear that Brahman is in no sense a being, and that all his personified images—as Krishna, Vishnu, Shiva, or the Divine Mother Durga and her manifestations—are all imaginative creations, not beings.

In cases like these the fundamentalists are reacting absolutely instinctively—whether they think they have instincts or not—to a threat to social stability made up of the narrow and unbalanced liberal teachings of the past three or four decades.

Maintaining both stability and civility, humane content and enduring form, in human societies is an unending dance between the conservative and the liberal impulses in human nature. The fundamentalist role in this dance is quite easy: All you have to do is cling tightly to a few simplistic teachings too small to do justice to the complex demands of the real world. You just have to cling to these, and then pretend that what you have done is honest and noble.
But the task of liberals is much, much harder. To be a liberal, to be an awake, responsive, and responsible liberal—that can take, and that can make, a whole life.


The Rev. Dr. Davidson Loehr is minister of the First Unitarian Universalist Church of Austin, Texas, and a Fellow in the Jesus Seminar. He holds degrees in theology, the philosophy of religion, and the philosophy of science. He considers himself a religious liberal but not a Unitarian Universalist.


web page (http://www.uuworld.org/2004/01/feature2.html)

Gayle in MD
12-27-2007, 08:52 AM
Interesting read. Christiana Amanpour tried to shed the same light on the similarities between the philosophies of Radical Islamists, and those of Fundalmentalist Chrisians, in her documentary, Warriors Of God. Extremists always share a common value, power to dictate to all others, from their narrow view, justified by religious dogma.

"When fascism comes, it comes with a smile, carrying a cross."

Good post, thanks.

Gayle

LWW
12-27-2007, 09:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Interesting read. Christiana Amanpour tried to shed the same light on the similarities between the philosophies of Radical Islamists, and those of Fundalmentalist Chrisians, in her documentary, Warriors Of God.

Gayle <hr /></blockquote>
Oh my GAWD!

That may be the biggest pantload yet dumped here.

How's about the obvious DIFFERENCES ... whwn was the last time you heard of 19 methodists crashing planes into buildings, or baptists with homicide bomb belts, or lutherans blowing up opposition political leaders.

Please, that is beneath anyone with the IQ of a retarded chimp.

LWW

LWW
12-27-2007, 09:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>"When fascism comes, it comes with a smile, carrying a cross."

Good post, thanks.

Gayle <hr /></blockquote>
Couldn't quite get the quote right could you, of course that wouldn't fit the agenda of hate towards Christianity would it Gayle.

Also, you forgot to add that when it comes it usually has a group of moonbats out front in the parade.

LWW

S0Noma
12-27-2007, 09:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr>
Please, that is beneath anyone with the IQ of a retarded chimp.

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

So.... obviously not beneath you?

S0Noma
12-27-2007, 09:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr>
Oh my GAWD!

How's about the obvious DIFFERENCES ... whwn was the last time you heard of 19 methodists crashing planes into buildings, or baptists with homicide bomb belts, or lutherans blowing up opposition political leaders.

Please, that is beneath anyone with the IQ of a retarded chimp.

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">Acts of violence against abortion clinics and their employees have been carried out across the United States throughout the 1980s and 1990s.

There were 1,700 acts of violence against abortion providers between 1977 and 1994, with four people killed in 1994 and one in 1993, according to statistics from the National Abortion Federation. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms has logged 167 attacks against abortion clinics over the past 15 years.

In 1984, there were 18 bombings against abortion clinics. In 1993, there were 78 death threats aimed at clinic employees. And, in 1996, bombings, threats and harassment affected about one-third of U.S. abortion clinics.

</font color> web page (http://msnbc.com/modules/clinics/)

S0Noma
12-27-2007, 09:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr>
Couldn't quite get the quote right could you, of course that wouldn't fit the agenda of hate towards Christianity would it Gayle.
LWW <hr /></blockquote>

Ummmm... whereas the actual quote is kind and loving toward Christianity? Do you really think so? Oh, sorry, I used the term 'think' and 'you' in the same sentence when everyone here knows that's an oxymoron.

Oh my, yes, Gayle's version of the quote is SO MUCH MORE HATEFUL! Sure it is - anyone with except someone with an IQ lower than a retarded chimp can see that:

http://www.northernsun.com/images/thumb/7038.jpg

S0Noma
12-27-2007, 09:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Interesting read. Christiana Amanpour tried to shed the same light on the similarities between the philosophies of Radical Islamists, and those of Fundalmentalist Chrisians, in her documentary, Warriors Of God.

Gayle <hr /></blockquote>
Oh my GAWD!

That may be the biggest pantload yet dumped here.

How's about the obvious DIFFERENCES ... whwn was the last time you heard of 19 methodists crashing planes into buildings, or baptists with homicide bomb belts, or lutherans blowing up opposition political leaders.

Please, that is beneath anyone with the IQ of a retarded chimp.

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

Oh my, let's do compare mainstream American Christians with radical fundamentalist Muslims and call it 'fair and balanced' shall we?

With LWW's example we can all see the obvious disparity between the two groups? Or perhaps it isn't lopsided and biased enough for those of you with the IQ of a retarded chimp to understand?

LWW
12-27-2007, 10:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr>
Oh my GAWD!

How's about the obvious DIFFERENCES ... whwn was the last time you heard of 19 methodists crashing planes into buildings, or baptists with homicide bomb belts, or lutherans blowing up opposition political leaders.

Please, that is beneath anyone with the IQ of a retarded chimp.

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">Acts of violence against abortion clinics and their employees have been carried out across the United States throughout the 1980s and 1990s.

There were 1,700 acts of violence against abortion providers between 1977 and 1994, with four people killed in 1994 and one in 1993, according to statistics from the National Abortion Federation. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms has logged 167 attacks against abortion clinics over the past 15 years.

In 1984, there were 18 bombings against abortion clinics. In 1993, there were 78 death threats aimed at clinic employees. And, in 1996, bombings, threats and harassment affected about one-third of U.S. abortion clinics.

</font color> web page (http://msnbc.com/modules/clinics/) <hr /></blockquote>
And?

LWW

S0Noma
12-27-2007, 11:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr>
Oh my GAWD!

How's about the obvious DIFFERENCES ... whwn was the last time you heard of 19 methodists crashing planes into buildings, or baptists with homicide bomb belts, or lutherans blowing up opposition political leaders.

Please, that is beneath anyone with the IQ of a retarded chimp.

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">Acts of violence against abortion clinics and their employees have been carried out across the United States throughout the 1980s and 1990s.

There were 1,700 acts of violence against abortion providers between 1977 and 1994, with four people killed in 1994 and one in 1993, according to statistics from the National Abortion Federation. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms has logged 167 attacks against abortion clinics over the past 15 years.

In 1984, there were 18 bombings against abortion clinics. In 1993, there were 78 death threats aimed at clinic employees. And, in 1996, bombings, threats and harassment affected about one-third of U.S. abortion clinics.

</font color> web page (http://msnbc.com/modules/clinics/) <hr /></blockquote>
And?

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

And you're an idiot

LWW
12-27-2007, 11:37 AM
So nice.

You compare a few hundred minor instances in the west, which CHRISTIANS BTW caught the perps and dealt with them as they always do, with THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of instances of Islamic violence against anyone and everyone and use that as a reason to lessen the tyranny of Islamofascism and hack away with vicious innuendo at people you hate because they believe different that you.

Being called an "IDIOT" by an anti semitic anti christian bigot such as yourself is high praise indeed.

Thank you.

Now, did you have a lucid point or did you just want to spew some more hatred from your black heart?

It really doesn't matter because you have been exposed for what you are.

Now, toodle along, the bell for class just rang.

LWW

S0Noma
12-27-2007, 11:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> So nice.

You compare a few hundred minor instances in the west, which CHRISTIANS BTW caught the perps and dealt with them as they always do...
LWW <hr /></blockquote>

Minor instances of murder and bombing attacks? When did the taking of a human life become 'minor'? When it suits you to say so?

"Christians caught the perps"? How about a link to support that BS? Got one? Or is this yet another example of more BS from the AZ BS master?

Bobbyrx
12-27-2007, 12:16 PM
Are you really saying that you think "fundamentalist" Christians are as big or a bigger threat to the world today as radical Islamists?

S0Noma
12-27-2007, 12:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bobbyrx:</font><hr> Are you really saying that you think "fundamentalist" Christians are as big or a bigger threat to the world today as radical Islamists? <hr /></blockquote>

Nope, not at all Bobby, I think radical Muslims are far and away the greater threat. In fact, I think they are an enormous threat and frankly I'm not sure what to do about it.

However both flavors of fundamentalism bear in common a desire to return to basics. IMO: This is an unrealistic and untenable objective based on fear of and resistance to change.

Folks who are unwilling or unprepared to deal with the world as it is and have somehow convinced themselves that turning back the clock is the answer?

Their ideas on how the rest of us should live our lives can be very scary and can be VERY dangerous.

In the final analysis there is an indiscernible difference between fundamentalists blowing up an unpopular abortion clinic here and fundamentalists blowing up an unpopular political leader in Pakistan.

Both roads are headed in the same direction.

LWW
12-27-2007, 12:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr>Nope, not at all Bobby, I think radical Muslims are far and away the greater threat. In fact, I think they are an enormous threat and frankly I'm not sure what to do about it.

However both flavors of fundamentalism bear in common a desire to return to basics. IMO: This is an unrealistic and untenable objective based on fear of and resistance to change.

Folks who are unwilling or unprepared to deal with the world as it is and have somehow convinced themselves that turning back the clock is the answer?

Their ideas on how the rest of us should live our lives can be very scary and can be VERY dangerous.

In the final analysis there is an indiscernible difference between fundamentalists blowing up an unpopular abortion clinic here and fundamentalists blowing up an unpopular political leader in Pakistan.

Both roads are headed in the same direction. <hr /></blockquote>
And you base this smear upon what, other than the fact that you are a moonbat, information?

LWW

S0Noma
12-27-2007, 12:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr>
And you base this smear upon what, other than the fact that you are a moonbat, information?

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

Still waiting on your "...CHRISTIANS BTW caught the perps and dealt with them as they always do" link big mouth.

Got one yet?

Or you just skipping the parts you can't answer like you always do?

LWW
12-27-2007, 02:18 PM
It's called the legal system.

Do you have any that are unsolved?

If so are the police working on them?

If not you have a gripe in an isolated case.

If so, then you are a moonbat.

LWW

S0Noma
12-27-2007, 02:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> It's called the legal system.

Do you have any that are unsolved?

If so are the police working on them?

If not you have a gripe in an isolated case.

If so, then you are a moonbat.

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

I get it now, according to you the entire legal system and all policemen are CHRISTIANS? Maybe not too.

Maybe some of those lawyers and some of those cops were Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and non-believers? Is that possible?

If it is, how do you reconcile that with your original brash , baseless statement? Oh I know, you can't and you won't.

It's not your style - your style is to make bold, baseless, statements for the sake of how they sound at the time. You continually behave in this forum like an out of control drama queen with the sound of your own brass band playing in in your head as you post.

Run away LWW - if you want to give the CHRISTIANS all of the credit then get me a link that shows that the CHRISTIANS caught all the abortion clinic bombers and Dr. murderers and while you're at it show us how they did it single handedly.

LWW
12-27-2007, 02:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> It's called the legal system.

Do you have any that are unsolved?

If so are the police working on them?

If not you have a gripe in an isolated case.

If so, then you are a moonbat.

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

I get it now, according to you the entire legal system and all policemen are CHRISTIANS? Maybe not too.

Maybe some of those lawyers and some of those cops were Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and non-believers? Is that possible?

If it is, how do you reconcile that with your original brash , baseless statement? Oh I know, you can't and you won't.

It's not your style - your style is to make bold, baseless, statements for the sake of how they sound at the time. You continually behave in this forum like an out of control drama queen with the sound of your own brass band playing in in your head as you post.

Run away LWW - if you want to give the CHRISTIANS all of the credit then get me a link that shows that the CHRISTIANS caught all the abortion clinic bombers and Dr. murderers and while you're at it show us how they did it single handedly. <hr /></blockquote>
So, how finely can you split a hair in the effort to appear to have a point when actually the only one you have is the one you hide under your hat oh great moonbat?

If you aren't aware, the US has 80%+ of the population who consider themselves to be Christian, but you knew that ... and distorted the point in the assembling of your latest strawman. Classic moonbat, accept Bravo Sierra straight down without the aid of a sup of water and then argue blindly against a reality that a retyarded chimp's crack baby could figure out.

LWW

S0Noma
12-27-2007, 04:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> So nice.

You compare a few hundred minor instances in the west, which CHRISTIANS BTW caught the perps and dealt with them as they always do,
LWW <hr /></blockquote>

Not splitting hairs at all. Those are your words LWW not mine. You were the one that chose to put CHRISTIANS in all caps for emphasis - not me. Now you're backpedaling and quoting percentages and pretending that it's not what you meant. Typical LWW response when he puts his foot in his mouth by making a broad and unsupportable statement and then gets challenged to back it up.

"Not what I meant - not what it seemed - not whatever it has to be for me to stay right....'

Sure buddy, whatever you say.

LWW
12-27-2007, 05:51 PM
Not backpedaling at all. I assumed that you had the intuitive intelligence of a kiwi. I forgot you were a moonbat. I won't let it happen again.

LWW

S0Noma
12-27-2007, 06:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> Not backpedaling at all. I assumed that you had the intuitive intelligence of a kiwi. I forgot you were a moonbat. I won't let it happen again.

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

You assumed nothing of the kind. Now you're making a quick personal attack, hoping no one has noticed that you still haven't been able to justify what you said and you're retreating as per your usual style.

Can't back your statement? What do you do? Well.... if you're LWW you dance and squirm and bluster and bluff and then pretend you didn't really mean what you said and you ASSUMED that everyone knew it...

LOfrickingL! You are TOO FUNNY for words.

Next post from you will no doubt claim victory.

LWW
12-27-2007, 06:04 PM
No need to.

It's apparent to everyone.

LWW

S0Noma
12-27-2007, 06:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> No need to.

It's apparent to everyone.

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

Off course it is (Sonoma pats LWW on the head).

What ever you say.

We shall all ASSUME that it's APPARENT.

That works - no facts required to support your statement - just the way you like it.

bamadog
12-28-2007, 12:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bobbyrx:</font><hr> Are you really saying that you think "fundamentalist" Christians are as big or a bigger threat to the world today as radical Islamists? <hr /></blockquote>

Nope, not at all Bobby, I think radical Muslims are far and away the greater threat. In fact, I think they are an enormous threat and frankly I'm not sure what to do about it.

However both flavors of fundamentalism bear in common a desire to return to basics. IMO: This is an unrealistic and untenable objective based on fear of and resistance to change.

Folks who are unwilling or unprepared to deal with the world as it is and have somehow convinced themselves that turning back the clock is the answer?

Their ideas on how the rest of us should live our lives can be very scary and can be VERY dangerous.

In the final analysis there is an indiscernible difference between fundamentalists blowing up an unpopular abortion clinic here and fundamentalists blowing up an unpopular political leader in Pakistan.

Both roads are headed in the same direction. <hr /></blockquote>

This is an empty academic equivalence. It is like saying that, in the final analysis there is an indiscernible difference between a flea fart and, a 200 megawatt coal fired generator, since they both produce green-house gases, and are therefore, both dangerous to the environment.

I dare say that the assassination of Bhutto has the potential to be far more destructive, by many magnitudes, than the bombing of an abortion clinic.
Are they headed in the same direction?
I seriously doubt it.
The Islamofascists in Pakistan are dedicated to the creation of a theocratic government. The abortion clinic bomber wanted the killing of unborn children to stop.
I can think of no serious Christian leader in the US who is advocating the overthrow of the Govt. for a theocracy.

But more destructive still, are secular movements like communism. Stalin was enamored of Darwin. He believed that the new Socialist man was perfected by evolution and would no longer be burdened or crippled by superstitions like religion. Then he went about killing 40 million people.
In fact, the greatest mass murderers in history have not been religious at all, they have been secular.

In the most final analysis, body count, they are, by far, the most destructive political movements.

Isolated incidents of fundamentalist extremism in the US don't even register on the historical richter scale.

LWW
12-28-2007, 04:58 AM
Dawg, I always appreciate your thoughts.

You stand out as an intellectual giant here amongst a sea of moonbats.

LWW

Gayle in MD
12-28-2007, 10:20 AM
Tap Tap Tap!!! I might add that in terms of violence potential, Christian Fundamentalists, and radical Islamists may not be comparable, however, in terms of losing our rights of self-determination, damage to our democracy, and the exclusion of certain groups, and the resulting damage to their human rights, there is little difference, IMO.

Gayle in Md.

LWW
12-28-2007, 10:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Tap Tap Tap!!! I might add that in terms of violence potential, Christian Fundamentalists, and radical Islamists may not be comparable, however, in terms of losing our rights of self-determination, damage to our democracy, and the exclusion of certain groups, and the resulting damage to their human rights, there is little difference, IMO.

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>
What rights would those be Gayle?

Please edify us with some specifics.

In honor of your requests I've done a search on this and other claims by you and all I've found was incessant ranting with nothing backing it up.

Now, I met you half way. How about some specifics, or let it be seen you have nothing but an ability to rant in your corner.

LWW