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nAz
12-29-2007, 11:50 PM
American kids, dumber than dirt
By Mark Morford

Warning: The next generation might just be the biggest pile of idiots in U.S. history

I have this ongoing discussion with a longtime reader who also just so happens to be a longtime Oakland high school teacher, a wonderful guy who's seen generations of teens come and generations go and who has a delightful poetic sensibility and quirky outlook on his life and his family and his beloved teaching career.

And he often writes to me in response to something I might've written about the youth of today, anything where I comment on the various nefarious factors shaping their minds and their perspectives and whether or not, say, EMFs and junk food and cell phones are melting their brains and what can be done and just how bad it might all be.

His response: It is not bad at all. It's absolutely horrifying.

My friend often summarizes for me what he sees, firsthand, every day and every month, year in and year out, in his classroom. He speaks not merely of the sad decline in overall intellectual acumen among students over the years, not merely of the astonishing spread of lazy slackerhood, or the fact that cell phones and iPods and excess TV exposure are, absolutely and without reservation, short-circuiting the minds of the upcoming generations. Of this, he says, there is zero doubt.

Nor does he speak merely of the notion that kids these days are overprotected and wussified and don't spend enough time outdoors and don't get any real exercise and therefore can't, say, identify basic plants, or handle a tool, or build, well, anything at all. Again, these things are a given. Widely reported, tragically ignored, nothing new.

No, my friend takes it all a full step — or rather, leap — further. It is not merely a sad slide. It is not just a general dumbing down. It is far uglier than that.

We are, as far as urban public education is concerned, essentially at rock bottom. We are now at a point where we are essentially churning out ignorant teens who are becoming ignorant adults and society as a whole will pay dearly, very soon, and if you think the hordes of easily terrified, mindless fundamentalist evangelical Christian lemmings have been bad for the soul of this country, just wait.

It's gotten so bad that, as my friend nears retirement, he says he is very seriously considering moving out of the country so as to escape what he sees will be the surefire collapse of functioning American society in the next handful of years due to the absolutely irrefutable destruction, the shocking — and nearly hopeless — dumb-ification of the American brain. It is just that bad.

Now, you may think he's merely a curmudgeon, a tired old teacher who stopped caring long ago. Not true. Teaching is his life. He says he loves his students, loves education and learning and watching young minds awaken. Problem is, he is seeing much less of it. It's a bit like the melting of the polar ice caps. Sure, there's been alarmist data about it for years, but until you see it for yourself, the deep visceral dread doesn't really hit home.

He cites studies, reports, hard data, from the appalling effects of television on child brain development (i.e.; any TV exposure before 6 years old and your kid's basic cognitive wiring and spatial perceptions are pretty much scrambled for life), to the fact that, because of all the insidious mandatory testing teachers are now forced to incorporate into the curriculum, of the 182 school days in a year, there are 110 when such testing is going on somewhere at Oakland High. As one of his colleagues put it, "It's like weighing a calf twice a day, but never feeding it."

But most of all, he simply observes his students, year to year, noting all the obvious evidence of teens' decreasing abilities when confronted with even the most basic intellectual tasks, from understanding simple history to working through moderately complex ideas to even (in a couple recent examples that particularly distressed him) being able to define the words "agriculture," or even "democracy." Not a single student could do it.

It gets worse. My friend cites the fact that, of the 6,000 high school students he estimates he's taught over the span of his career, only a small fraction now make it to his grade with a functioning understanding of written English. They do not know how to form a sentence. They cannot write an intelligible paragraph. Recently, after giving an assignment that required drawing lines, he realized that not a single student actually knew how to use a ruler.

It is, in short, nothing less than a tidal wave of dumb, with once-passionate, increasingly exasperated teachers like my friend nearly powerless to stop it. The worst part: It's not the kids' fault. They're merely the victims of a horribly failed educational system.

Then our discussion often turns to the meat of it, the bigger picture, the ugly and unavoidable truism about the lack of need among the government and the power elite in this nation to create a truly effective educational system, one that actually generates intelligent, thoughtful, articulate citizens.

Hell, why should they? After all, the dumber the populace, the easier it is to rule and control and launch unwinnable wars and pass laws telling them that sex is bad and TV is good and God knows all, so just pipe down and eat your Taco Bell Double-Supremo Burrito and be glad we don't arrest you for posting dirty pictures on your cute little blog.

This is about when I try to offer counterevidence, a bit of optimism. For one thing, I've argued generational relativity in this space before, suggesting maybe kids are no scarier or dumber or more dangerous than they've ever been, and that maybe some of the problem is merely the same old awkward generation gap, with every current generation absolutely convinced the subsequent one is terrifically stupid and malicious and will be the end of society as a whole. Just the way it always seems.

I also point out how, despite all the evidence of total public-education meltdown, I keep being surprised, keep hearing from/about teens and youth movements and actions that impress the hell out of me. Damn kids made the Internet what it is today, fer chrissakes. Revolutionized media. Broke all the rules. Still are.

Hell, some of the best designers, writers, artists, poets, chefs, and so on that I meet are in their early to mid-20s. And the nation's top universities are still managing, despite a factory-churning mentality, to crank out young minds of astonishing ability and acumen. How did these kids do it? How did they escape the horrible public school system? How did they avoid the great dumbing down of America? Did they never see a TV show until they hit puberty? Were they all born and raised elsewhere, in India and Asia and Russia? Did they all go to Waldorf or Montessori and eat whole-grain breads and play with firecrackers and take long walks in wild nature? Are these kids flukes? Exceptions? Just lucky?

My friend would say, well, yes, that's precisely what most of them are. Lucky, wealthy, foreign-born, private-schooled ... and increasingly rare. Most affluent parents in America — and many more who aren't — now put their kids in private schools from day one, and the smart ones give their kids no TV and minimal junk food and no video games. (Of course, this in no way guarantees a smart, attuned kid, but compared to the odds of success in the public school system, it sure seems to help). This covers about, what, 3 percent of the populace?

As for the rest, well, the dystopian evidence seems overwhelming indeed, to the point where it might be no stretch at all to say the biggest threat facing America is perhaps not global warming, not perpetual warmongering, not garbage food or low-level radiation or way too much Lindsay Lohan, but a populace far too ignorant to know how to properly manage any of it, much less change it all for the better.

What, too fatalistic? Don't worry. Soon enough, no one will know what the word even means.

moblsv
12-30-2007, 06:09 AM
I have proof that this has been happening for decades

http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showprofile.php?Cat=&User=LWW&Board=npr&what=ubbth reads&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=

hondo
12-30-2007, 07:55 AM
nAZ, I recently retired after 30 years of teaching.
Our county has always been on the cutting edge in
WV and year in and year out we have the highest test scores
in WV.
Our teachers are experienced and work very hard on the basics.
That said, for the past several years I haven't gotten
the top kids in the school; I've gotten the so-called avearage kids in class.
It's scary. They have no sense of the past, NONE, no
awareness of the present, other than Hollywood gossip,
and no vision of the future.
They're fairly sharp in navigating the Net , but they have no basic math skills.
They won't read; they can't write; they have little ambition. They can't memorize 4 lines of poetry.
Have no idea who fought in any of the wars. Believe
everything the media tells them.
Thought we went to war with Iraq because Saddam attacked us during 9/11.
Most of them have pretty good knowledge about Bud, Jack Daniels,pot, crack, coke, Lorcets, Oxycontin, oral sex,anal sex, WWF, Nascar, pop music, and deer season.
And, belive me, it has really gotten worse in the last 8-10 years.
WHY? Single parents who have to work, no parents, television, computers, video games, drugs, easy sex.
Too many class requirements, so they feel overwhelmed and say f**k it.
They feel no respect for authority and have short fuses.
Improper diets, not enough sleep.
And we're number one in the state?!?! What are the other schools like?
Meanwhile, there is a demand for high performance on test scores and yet no child left behind? Believe me, that can be a contradiction.
Hondo- happily retired but worried about our future.
These kids could be suckered into anything.
One more 9/11 and a Hitler type arises in America and says exterminate all Muslims,and they'll say right on, but that's another thread. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

pooltchr
12-30-2007, 08:14 AM
I don't think it's a case of the government not recognizing the problem...I think it's more that government IS the problem!
When teachers aren't allowed to teach...when their job is to coach students to pass a test...when administrators are more concerned with money than they are with students...and when they are afraid to take a stand against those who only want to disrupt schools...well, we get what we ask for.

Our local school system has an ironclad rule...bring a weapon to school, and you don't come back. Well, last year, there were over 200 weapons found in schools...the same year, there were a total of SEVEN students expelled! In just one of our 16 high schools, there are 14 CONVICTED FELONS enrolled. When the focus is on making sure that no single student doesn't get left behind, we are failing to help the 95% who really WANT to learn.
Schools are no longer designed to teach...they are very expensive day-care centers. The lack of parental involvement plays a big part in the problem, but the actual structure of the school systems needs a complete overhaul.
Private schools regularly out-perform government run schools...that should tell us something.
Steve

moblsv
12-30-2007, 08:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr>so they feel overwhelmed and say f**k it.<hr /></blockquote>

In my view, this one line sums it all up.

I hear kids (and adults) who are totally incapable of using critical thinking skills to decipher all the information that is being thrown at them. The Internet has an answer to everything, always out of context, and usually twisted to support an opinion. People are simply being overloaded with information and not thinking. Now we have a world where a scientific fact and an opinion both get equal air-time and are considered to be equally weighted in order to have a "fair and balanced" debate. Kids need to learn that opposite sides of a question are not always equal and solving an equation that is set up with bad assumption will lead to bad results. In my view this is why so many are so intent upon marginalizing science in our society through initiative such as Intelligent Design. A person who can properly set up an equation will quickly see through the deceptions which so many rely upon in order to maintain their power.

A pea[brain] and a bus are not equal.

just one example among many:
A few Global Warming deniers and a scientific consensus are not equal. A "Middle" would be the facts and the counterpoint to the deniers would be those who claim that the situation is far worse than consensus.

moblsv
12-30-2007, 08:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>
Private schools regularly out-perform government run schools...that should tell us something.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Private Schools regularly skim the top student and don't have to deal with the rest. They should perform better, they start with better.

Another example of setting up the equation properly to get useful answers.

sack316
12-30-2007, 08:37 AM
Actually hondo, it's the "WWE" these days... gotta keep up with current events there bud /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

But seriously, reading through this thread it sounds easy to blame the schools, government programs, kids themselves, television, media, entertainment industry, and/or whoever else can be in plain sight to point a finger at... but really in the grand scheme of things shouldn't we point directly at parents?

Don't get me wrong, I understand (thankfully not through personal experience yet)that in society today it's damn tough to be a parent. Most households are two income households and that it's a crazy world out there. But here's a thought: if you cannot have the time to take care of and raise a halfway prepared child--- don't have kids! Seems most folks are more willing to turn down taking care of a dog or cat because their hectic work schedule won't allow them to properly care for them... yet no problems with churning out the kids! Why do kids minds get to become mush from (insert buzz blame word here)--- because there is no responsible parent there to supervise, explain, and ensure understanding of the world to the kid.

Quick common sense idea here--- how about parents wait until the right time to have children? Like maybe AFTER they realize their marriage just may work out... and perhaps after there is a stable income coming into the household. And once a stable income is established... how about living within your means so that one parent may at least be around enough during the developing years to rear the poor kid, rather than a daycare where some girl or guy making (maybe?) ten bucks an hour is spreading attention and learning to ten to thirty other children?

It can be done, I know most parents will say they NEED to both work full time. But how about instead of the 200K house you settle for the modest 2 or 3 bedroom one story home for half the price? And instead of a couple of nice expensive SUV's just settle for the cheaper sedan that will be both safe and economical for the family? And, again I'll say, how about waiting to even have a family until you see that a family will be able to stay a family... rather than a sleepover from week to week between various households?

Seriously, I don't think the problem lies anywhere else but at the home... if a child can be actually raised right from the beginning, then they at least can have a chance reguardless of what f'ed up government programs, schools, or whatever else may lie before them.

Sack

moblsv
12-30-2007, 08:46 AM
tap, tap, tap

Schools are a supplement to a kids healthy development and education, not a replacement. It all starts with the parents.

hondo
12-30-2007, 10:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> I don't think it's a case of the government not recognizing the problem...I think it's more that government IS the problem!
When teachers aren't allowed to teach...when their job is to coach students to pass a test...when administrators are more concerned with money than they are with students...and when they are afraid to take a stand against those who only want to disrupt schools...well, we get what we ask for.

Our local school system has an ironclad rule...bring a weapon to school, and you don't come back. Well, last year, there were over 200 weapons found in schools...the same year, there were a total of SEVEN students expelled! In just one of our 16 high schools, there are 14 CONVICTED FELONS enrolled. When the focus is on making sure that no single student doesn't get left behind, we are failing to help the 95% who really WANT to learn.
Schools are no longer designed to teach...they are very expensive day-care centers. The lack of parental involvement plays a big part in the problem, but the actual structure of the school systems needs a complete overhaul.
Private schools regularly out-perform government run schools...that should tell us something.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

I certainly agree with most of what you say.
However, not every area has private schools,
and, the only area they're out-performing public schools in my region is on the football field and that's because they're able to recruit.
Even without all the interference which you have correctly analyzed, my students would still be extremely lethargic, although they wouldn't have any idea what that word meant.

hondo
12-30-2007, 10:11 AM
Excellent post, sir.
One of the reasons I chose English as my field was
the opportunity to allow students to think &amp; be creative.
With the emphasis on performance-based criteria ( i.e. test scores), there's no time to be too creative.
Thus, I became a dinosaur.
I don't blame it all on the simpletons, wouldn't want to be labled a moonbat, but they have aggravated an already deteriorating situation.

hondo
12-30-2007, 10:14 AM
You're definitely right, Sack. Notice I put single working parent and/or no parents at the top of my list as to the problem?

hondo
12-30-2007, 10:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote moblsv:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>
Private schools regularly out-perform government run schools...that should tell us something.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Private Schools regularly skim the top student and don't have to deal with the rest. They should perform better, they start with better.

Another example of setting up the equation properly to get useful answers. <hr /></blockquote>

Sssh. Conservatives don't want to hear that. It confuses
their neat little view of reality. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bamadog
12-30-2007, 11:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote moblsv:</font><hr>




just one example among many:
A few Global Warming deniers and a scientific consensus are not equal. A "Middle" would be the facts and the counterpoint to the deniers would be those who claim that the situation is far worse than consensus. <hr /></blockquote>

The very fact that you used the term "Global Warming deniers"(sp), indicates that you have loaded the proposition. Since you are probably not even aware of this bias, this indicates that you must have attended one of our public indoctrination mills.
Hell, in west Virginia, even someone as uninformed and biased as hondo can teach a class in Media Bias.
Imagine that.

S0Noma
12-30-2007, 12:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> "...the actual structure of the school systems needs a complete overhaul."

Steve <hr /></blockquote>

I couldn't agree with you more. If it were up to me I'd completely revamp the secondary education system. The way things are right now it's become a completely inefficient baby sitting institution whose primary function is to keep kids preoccupied and off the street until they turn 18. After that? The ones who've paid attention and studied have built the basis for going on to college but the vast majority are dumped out without either job or real life skills.

IMHO: One of the first things I'd do is start building technical/trade schools as alternatives to traditional academic high schools. I'd stop making HS attendance compulsory and make it voluntary AND I'd set up stringent conditions that students had to meet to qualify to stay in school (just like college). Once they've graduated from primary school they'd face a battery of tests to determine their eligibility for HS. Fail the tests and no high school for you. Pass the tests and you're on your way to preparing yourself for a higher education. Cut out all the deadwood that's not interested in going on to college and fill the classrooms with students eager to learn and advance themselves.

What about the kids that fail the academic standards tests for admission to high school?

That's where the tech/trade school alternatives would come in. If a kid doesn't want to go on to college or doesn't have the requisite skills to compete? Put him/her into a trade school and start teaching them about how to earn a living. Teach them plumbing, or electrical skills, or construction skills - or auto mechanics, or whatever. There's a long list of skilled trades that we as a society consider worthy of paying more than minimum wage to have done. Teach them how to balance a check book and manage a budget. Run them through real life drills that require them to pay bills, practice safe sex, and otherwise function in society as contributing human beings. At the end of four years give those who have managed to get through the program a degree that means something - a degree that will drastically improve their chances of getting a job.

Right now, what we have instead are four year baby sitting institutions filled with kids who don't really want to be there but have no where else to go. The majority get herded through the system for four years and then spit out without a clue as to how to survive in the real world.

We as a society get to pick up the slack - we end up with a small percentage of students who are qualified to go on to college and a lion's share of kids who may have trouble holding down a minimum wage job that has to be supplemented by their parents in order for them to survive.

I wish there were something we could do about it rather than the current methods. Wish there was something there for the kids who graduate without any real skills and no intention of going on to college.

Something other than: Welcome to Wally World kid.

Sid_Vicious
12-30-2007, 12:34 PM
The system exacerbates the issue with the changes to the testing methods, they(entire admin, many individual teachers are wonderful) teach the test more than they teach the child. We here in this country also have a wealth trama, and OUR kids HAVE to have more than what we had growing up, so we GIVE it to them. When I used to walk to school, uphill, both ways, I bought and paid for my stuff, no gimme of autos, insurance and money. The education was a no brainer for me...wouldn't get much for myself without doing it myself. Parents today need to give less and let their kids swim on their owm more, and government needs to put them to the test rather than teach them the test. Then you have the issue of minority students, be them in public school or continued education,,,some get past english-lit simply by any effort, cuz we "just can't fail a minority" now can we?" Let's face it, we have a wimped out educational system when you really look at it objectively.

On a last note, a little corporate punishment reinstated in both home and school would be productive. Nobody considers that anymore, and most probably won't agree with some of these views, especially the last one, but that's how I feel. I do not seriously feel that the butt warmings I got growing up did any harm, made me stay in the focus, and focus is about gone in many kids these days. sid

nAz
12-30-2007, 12:50 PM
Im not sure what the answer is... all i know is that it was a fu2king mess when i was in school and it has not gotten any better from what i see and hear when i talk to teen agers.
seem like the biggest problem is with lack of involvement from parents with their kids. I know it is difficult for them when they have to juggle long hours at work just to pay bills, rent, food and the only baby sitters these kids have is the only living God TV. but they need to find a way to spend time with their kids else they will most likely get lost in this world.

Gayle in MD
12-30-2007, 02:21 PM
Over population by people who should never have been parents in the first place.

Public schools were a joke when my daughter began kindergarten, back in 1968. I sent her to private school, as her education was my top priority.

Now, my daughter lives in a rural suburban, high income area, with extremely devoted teachers, and my grand-daughter attends a school that was known as the best school in the county. The teachers are beside themselves, feeling that they canot be good teachers, due to the "No Child Left Behind" program. While their devotion is plain to see, their frustration in dealing with NCLB has turned the joy of teaching, into a struggle.

I don't understand how or why people have kids when neither parent will be there in the home to bring them up. It's the most important thing in life, yet it is on the bottom of the list.

The educational system may have been dying on the vine, but NCLB sent it to the gallows. My daughter views Emma's school hours as a supplement to what she is being taught at home. While private school was terribly expensive when I was paying tuition for my daughter, all those years ago, today's prices are only within the reach of the very, very wealthy, atleast in our area.

It's really a sad state of affairs.

Gayle in Md.

bamadog
12-30-2007, 03:04 PM
See Gayle, as usual, you found a way to blame Bush, yet again.
How will you amuse yourself, a year from now, when Bush is no longer President?
I'm going to make the wild prediction that, if a Dem is elected, you're still going to be on your soap box here blaming Bush.

You heard it here first, folks.

S0Noma
12-30-2007, 03:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bamadog:</font><hr> See Gayle, as usual, you found a way to blame Bush, yet again.
How will you amuse yourself, a year from now, when Bush is no longer President?
I'm going to make the wild prediction that, if a Dem is elected, you're still going to be on your soap box here blaming Bush.

You heard it here first, folks. <hr /></blockquote>

The irony of course, is that while what you say may have a grain of truth in it - Bush getting elected never stopped any of your side from continuing to blame Clinton.

Round and round she goes - where she stops nobody knows.

hondo
12-30-2007, 03:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bamadog:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote moblsv:</font><hr>




just one example among many:
A few Global Warming deniers and a scientific consensus are not equal. A "Middle" would be the facts and the counterpoint to the deniers would be those who claim that the situation is far worse than consensus. <hr /></blockquote>

The very fact that you used the term "Global Warming deniers"(sp), indicates that you have loaded the proposition. Since you are probably not even aware of this bias, this indicates that you must have attended one of our public indoctrination mills.
Hell, in west Virginia, even someone as uninformed and biased as hondo can teach a class in Media Bias.
Imagine that. <hr /></blockquote>

True, but we can spell and understand where to use capital letters a little better than you.
Ironic, isn't it, Snoopy?

hondo
12-30-2007, 03:22 PM
We definitely need more tech/trade type schools.

hondo
12-30-2007, 03:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bamadog:</font><hr> See Gayle, as usual, you found a way to blame Bush, yet again.
How will you amuse yourself, a year from now, when Bush is no longer President?
I'm going to make the wild prediction that, if a Dem is elected, you're still going to be on your soap box here blaming Bush.

You heard it here first, folks. <hr /></blockquote>

Snoopy, everybody on here is talking about the educational
system except you. With all due respect, why don't you get the hell off this thread if you have nothing constuctive to add.
Thanks. Happy New Year.

eg8r
12-30-2007, 07:00 PM
My wife and I have made the decision when we had children that they would be going to private school for their education. While it is expensive it is worth the money. I also feel it is a huge responsiblity of the parent to take control of their child's education and that includes at home and AT SCHOOL. Too many parents look to the educational system as a day care and that is a trap that I refuse to allow my wife and I to fall in to.

eg8r

llotter
12-30-2007, 07:16 PM
There is hardly any significant problem facing us today on the domestic side that can’t be properly laid at the feet of the liberal do-gooders and near the top of the list is our broken education system. Starting with the leftist unions, who have done everything possible to hide from the basic responsibility of teaching the students while ducking from any accountability for their failures. This has really tied the hands of local school boards to continually improve their teaching staff and undermines the ability of parents to responsibly control their local schools. While the unions are a facilitator, the problem goes much deeper.

When Sputnik made its surprise appearance in our night skies about 50 years ago, the powers-that-be went into a desperate assessment of our education system to find out if improvements could be made. We definitely did not want our children to be left behind in the Cold War. Thus, another stronghold of the left, the university academics, were invited to come up with some ‘fixes’ to improve our educational system. For those old enough, I’m sure the memories of the many ‘reforms’ that were introduced virtually untested and on a wholesale scale. Such thing as ‘new math’ and ‘whole language’ and mess of other reforms were foisted on the system with disastrous results. In fact our public schools are still in the clutches of the professional academic Left who are still introducing their pointy-headed ‘reforms’

As if this wasn’t enough, the do-gooders introduced all sorts of new burdens onto the systems, like busing, breakfasts, sex ed, ‘mainstreaming’ etc. etc. etc., all new functions that detract from the traditional role of public education.. Add to all this, the intrusion of the feds with their penchant for top-down, one-solution-fits-all methods, is it any wonder that parents have been disenfranchised from their natural role of being responsible for their own children?

The ultimate solution is to let the parents be responsible for the education for their own kids, through their local school boards sans teacher unions. It would be even better to do away with publicly financed education altogether but that isn’t likely to happen anytime soon. In a free society, the last thing you should entrust to government is education of the young.
.

hondo
12-30-2007, 07:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> My wife and I have made the decision when we had children that they would be going to private school for their education. While it is expensive it is worth the money. I also feel it is a huge responsiblity of the parent to take control of their child's education and that includes at home and AT SCHOOL. Too many parents look to the educational system as a day care and that is a trap that I refuse to allow my wife and I to fall in to.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Good for you, Eg.
I really feel that is a big key to a child's success.
I just wish more parents felt that way.

hondo
12-30-2007, 07:42 PM
Your post is an odd mix of being dead on in spots
and conservative horse manure in other spots.
Actually, I agree with most of your observations.
A few differences:
Breakfast &amp; lunch are only free to those who qualify.
Sometimes that's the only meals they get all day.
I think sex ed should be mandatory. It's a different world today.
I believe you hinted that home schooling might be the
answer. Who teaches these kids? Do dumb parents just
let their kids rot?
What about private schools? Who pays? Will they let the
poor whites, blacks, and latinos in?
It smacks of elitism. But who gives a damn about poor kids
with avearage or below average intelligence parents anyway?
Let them eat cake. We're all Republicans here.

Sid_Vicious
12-30-2007, 08:00 PM
"the biggest problem is with lack of involvement from parents with their kids. I know it is difficult for them when they have to juggle long hours at work just to pay bills, rent, food and the only baby sitters"

My sis and mom did it right, they stayed at home, giving up the 3br-2car homes and the "beat the Jones'" syndrome. Kids value more from an upbringing in a simple frame house, or even a 70' trailer, than in a custom brick home. My mom had 5 kids, 4 were honor students even through college(I wasn't one.) My sis has 4 and three are college grads, the niece is now carrying a constant 4.0 at UTA in Austin at the end of her junior year. Parents need to weigh the real value of TIME with those they bring into the world once they drop a calf. Material things are meaningless, so F-the need for the second income, be with the kids and be a parent. sid

wolfdancer
12-30-2007, 09:14 PM
Better watch it...Rambo will go Rocky on you....

web page (http://www.vidilife.com/video_play_330811_Rocky_the_Rat_Rocky_Raccon_by_Th e_Beatles_.htm)

bamadog
12-30-2007, 11:15 PM
So true.
This is why private schools in the same neighborhoods, drawing from the same populations, consistently out perform public schools.
Vouchers are one possible remedy.
Get competition back in the education industry.
But the teachers' unions will scream bloody murder.
They've got employment for life with no real performance requirements.
Sweet deal for them, disastrous for the kids.

wolfdancer
12-31-2007, 12:32 AM
I'm surprised given the number of things detrimental to our nation, that the left is being charged with...that the townspeople don't rise up, torches in hand....like in the old Frankenstein movies
http://www.buymytoys.net/pics810/housefrank2.jpg

pooltchr
12-31-2007, 05:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> Your post is an odd mix of being dead on in spots
and conservative horse manure in other spots.
Actually, I agree with most of your observations.
A few differences:
Breakfast &amp; lunch are only free to those who qualify.
Sometimes that's the only meals they get all day.
<font color="red"> Agreed...this is one social program I agree with. </font color>
I think sex ed should be mandatory. It's a different world today. <font color="red"> Agreed again...too many 13 year olds becoming parents...although a lot of that falls on their parents. Just look at the Spears girls! </font color>
I believe you hinted that home schooling might be the
answer. Who teaches these kids? Do dumb parents just
let their kids rot? <font color="red"> Home schooling is just one option. It won't work if the parents are dumber than the kids! </font color>
What about private schools? Who pays? Will they let the
poor whites, blacks, and latinos in? <font color="red"> One word...Vouchers! </font color>
It smacks of elitism. But who gives a damn about poor kids
with avearage or below average intelligence parents anyway?
Let them eat cake. We're all Republicans here.
<font color="red"> It IS elitism! The best schools will be successful, and the crappy ones will roll over and die. My guess is that if everyone had a choice between government and private schools (Vouchers) the government schools would soon be gone. The money we spend on government schools could be used to fund the voucher program, and let schools compete for business. Free enterprise at it's best! </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> Steve </font color>

LWW
12-31-2007, 05:48 AM
I love it!

A total moonbat who dedicates his career to creating the problem and then blames everyone BUT the moonbats for taking what was recently the finest education system on Earth and grinding it to dust.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a247/lww/ONLINE%20ARGUMENTS/boomer_teacher_01.jpg

Bugtussle, WV (UPI) Root cause of US education problems traced
back to a lone moonbat who authorities refer to internally as the
"LUNARBATTER". Above is a photo of the accused, who would
only identify himself as "HOUNDO", as he conducts a science
experiment trying to relabel moonshine as good liquor.

LWW

hondo
12-31-2007, 07:40 AM
Good post, Steve. One question. If all these vouchers were handed out by the government, and everybody in their right mind jumped on it, wouldn't the cost be exorbitant?
And then, wouldn't the government want to get their grubby little paws in it?
And wouldn't the private schools have to increase their tuition if their enrollment increased 5 fold or more?
And wouldn't you see performance scores leveling off with all these average kids flooding into the private schools with their little vouchers?
Just asking.

hondo
12-31-2007, 07:44 AM
This has been an excellent thread except for
two idiots who had nothing to add but insults.
I've really enjoyed it.

LWW
12-31-2007, 07:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> And then, wouldn't the government want to get their grubby little paws in it?<hr /></blockquote>
No.

The gubmint has their grubby hands in it now, therein lies the problem.

LWW

LWW
12-31-2007, 07:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> And wouldn't the private schools have to increase their tuition if their enrollment increased 5 fold or more? <hr /></blockquote>
No.

All known laws of economics show that with increased volume comes decreased price, but, you are a moonbat and believe in a static world that is flat in all directions.

LWW

LWW
12-31-2007, 07:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> And wouldn't you see performance scores leveling off with all these average kids flooding into the private schools with their little vouchers? <hr /></blockquote>
No.

We would see scores rise to the level that we remove the feds. You can watch test scores over time and see them fall as local people lose control, but, you are a moonbat who couldn't figure out how many squares to take to the outhouse without a gubmint pamphlet.

LWW

LWW
12-31-2007, 07:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr>?Just asking.<hr /></blockquote>
No, you weren't.

You are a moonbat who was on the inside creating the problem and now want to blame those who opposed your moonbat ideas for allowing them to be implemented.

LWW

LWW
12-31-2007, 07:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> This has been an excellent thread except for
two idiots who had nothing to add but insults.
I've really enjoyed it. <hr /></blockquote>
Don't you dare talk about wolf prancer and SODumba ... why one of them might bite both of your ankle!

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/tpa0176l.jpg
Wolfie retaliates after houndo starts yet
another urination contest!

LWW

llotter
12-31-2007, 10:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> Your post is an odd mix of being dead on in spots
and conservative horse manure in other spots.
Actually, I agree with most of your observations.
A few differences:
Breakfast &amp; lunch are only free to those who qualify.
Sometimes that's the only meals they get all day.
I think sex ed should be mandatory. It's a different world today.
I believe you hinted that home schooling might be the
answer. Who teaches these kids? Do dumb parents just
let their kids rot?
What about private schools? Who pays? Will they let the
poor whites, blacks, and latinos in?
It smacks of elitism. But who gives a damn about poor kids
with avearage or below average intelligence parents anyway?
Let them eat cake. We're all Republicans here. <hr /></blockquote>

Ideally, in a free society, people should be responsible for themselves and their families. Responsibility and freedom are two sides of the same coin. So, in my ideal world, the parents should be responsible for their own kids, including their education and that means having to pay for it as well. There is obviously a reasonable case to be made for public education to insure some minimum standards can be maintained and for practical purposes, I would cede that point but with the proviso that the parents should be in charge through their locally elected school boards. This is the way it used to be but now these local institutions have become mere administrators of complex regulations and laws and rules from state and federal authorities that in large part make both school boards and the parents a bit helpless. Parents are left with the choice of putting their kids in private schools while still having to pay for the public ones or home schooling or, as is most often the case, tossing their hands in the air and hoping for the best.

Critics of our schools often point to lack of involvement of parents as the problem but I contend that they are not involved because the important decisions have been usurped. And, even those parents who remain active in their local public school have very little real control over what is being taught or who is doing the teaching. There is a lawyer at every board meeting to insure whatever action they take will fall within the state and federal guidelines and woe unto the school that gets sued for failing to genuflect enough times to the real powers-that-be. End result is that boards invariably toe the line and essentially leave parents without a meaningful voice. As I have repeated with every post, people without responsibility will act irresponsibly.

It is the elitist position that people are incapable to fending for themselves and must be taken care of by those that know what’s best for them. If that were the case, then we may as well just toss aside the idea of freedom of individuals and go straight away back to the pre-Magna Carta days or a more modern Marxist regime. Our history tells us, however, people are more than capable of not only taking care of themselves and their families, but that adding burdens of oversight and control and expense of government are essentially self-defeating..

LWW
12-31-2007, 11:24 AM
That was beautiful man.

LWW

S0Noma
12-31-2007, 12:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote llotter:</font><hr> Critics of our schools often point to lack of involvement of parents as the problem but I contend that they are not involved because the important decisions have been usurped.
<hr /></blockquote>

I contend that students are not involved because attendance is compulsory instead of voluntary. High School needs to be made a privilege rather than a chore. Raise academic standards force students to take qualifying exams before allowing them to attend. For those who do attend set standards of performance that must be met in order to remain enrolled - just like college.

For the remainder? Send them to trade/tech schools and teach them job skills and real world survival skills including maintaining a checking account and balancing a budget. Teach them about the cost of living and what must be done to meet basic needs like paying rent and buying food.

DO NOT force kids to waste four years of their lives attending classes in which they have no interest and no intention of participating - much less excelling.

DO NOT force kids to waste four years of their lives dawdling in high school and then dump them out on the job market with no job skills and no understanding of how to cope in today's world.

GET OVER thinking that every child who attends high school is bound for college. Meet the needs of the majority who aren't by teaching them job skills and and how to make a living.

It's not rocket science.

LWW
12-31-2007, 12:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr> I contend that students are not involved because attendance is compulsory instead of voluntary.<hr /></blockquote>
And what do you base this idea of yours upon?

Oh?

Nothing.

I thought so.

Children do not learn because they are not taught.

Children are curious by nature and crave learning.

We have a system which spends vast amounts of money to prevent them from gaining it.

Why? Because we abandoned an educational system which had worked for centuries and replaced it with one designed by moonbats.

LWW

S0Noma
12-31-2007, 12:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr> I contend that students are not involved because attendance is compulsory instead of voluntary.<hr /></blockquote>
And what do you base this idea of yours upon?

Oh?

Nothing.

<font color="blue">Is it not compulsory in your State? It is here in Ca. Aside from that compulsory attendance is only part of the problem. Many high schools serve as little more than baby sitting institutions for non-college bound kids. They are not meeting the needs of the majority of non-college bound kids who will be faced with entering the job market at the end of four years.

Let me think - don't meet their needs to find jobs after high school is finished and force them to attend in spite of the fact that they are disinterested in the curriculum? That's a sure-fire combination that's bound to work.

</font color>

I thought so.

<font color="blue">Doubtful, 'LWW' combined with 'thought' = oxymoron. </font color>

Children do not learn because they are not taught.

<font color="blue">I see. So it IS possible to lead a horse to water AND make him drink? Interesting. </font color>

Children are curious by nature and crave learning.

<font color="blue">Nice broad brush statement replete with your normal propensity for vague over generalization. For example: Is this a constant state for children? Do they ALWAYS crave learning? If your answer is yes - on what basis do you feel this is true? If your answer is no? What makes them lose their interest? </font color>

We have a system which spends vast amounts of money to prevent them from gaining it.

<font color="blue">Uh huh, right - see: "Nice broad brush statement replete with your normal propensity for vague over generalization" above. </font color>

Why? Because we abandoned an educational system which had worked for centuries and replaced it with one designed by moonbats.

<font color="blue">Now you're making an unsubstantiated opinion based on "a broad brush statement replete with your normal propensity for vague over generalization and (lest we not forget) stereotyping".

Not terribly convincing but then hardly anything you have to say is convincing so what else is new?</font color>

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

DickLeonard
12-31-2007, 12:47 PM
Bamadog Bush will be our BlowJob long after everyone has forgot Bill Clinton.####

DickLeonard
12-31-2007, 12:53 PM
Pooltchr your post seems to prove the Liberals point. Abortion is best in the womb,Gun Control is the only answer.####

LWW
12-31-2007, 01:02 PM
You took that long to say that you based your opinion on nothing more than a mental fart?

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a247/lww/ONLINE%20ARGUMENTS/Rage_Boy_SODumbaB.gif


BAGHDAD (UPI) News of the moonbats resuming their attacks on
truth and logic, RAGE BOY denounces SODumba for his completely
intellectually dishonest style.

LWW

S0Noma
12-31-2007, 02:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> You took that long to say that you based your opinion on ... blah, blah, blah...

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

Personal attack in lieu of addressing my post? Apparently it's not just the kids who are dumber than dirt. But we all knew that about you already - no reason to keep bringing it up other than to remind you of how you rank in our opinion.

pooltchr
12-31-2007, 03:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> Good post, Steve. One question. If all these vouchers were handed out by the government, and everybody in their right mind jumped on it, wouldn't the cost be exorbitant?
<font color="red"> What do you think it is right now??? In our city/county school system, it costs over $11,000 per student per year. I think private schools would come in at a much better per-student cost...and still be able to make a profit. And I would expect to see some schools specialize in different types of education...engineering, mechanics, music, science, etc that would allow parents and students to tailor the education to their particular student's aptitude and interest. </font color>
And then, wouldn't the government want to get their grubby little paws in it? <font color="red"> Their grubby paws are already in it...that's the problem. Let private enterprise have a shot...they usually have better results with everything they do. </font color>
And wouldn't the private schools have to increase their tuition if their enrollment increased 5 fold or more?
<font color="red"> Actually, their per student costs should be lower if enrollment were to increase. For example on a very small scale. One teacher, one classroom, one student would be expensive, but add 19 more students to the class...the only additional expense would be additional supplies. Very simplistic, but it proves the theory. Volume in any business reduces costs. Look at Wal-Mart! </font color>
And wouldn't you see performance scores leveling off with all these average kids flooding into the private schools with their little vouchers?
<font color="red"> Overall, performance may drop off some. But performance is already down the tubes with the government schools. It couldn't get worse, and would probably still be better than what we have now. </font color>
Just asking. <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="red"> It probably won't happen. The teacher's union will fight it to the ends of the earth. They don't want to give up the good deal they have going with the system. Our $250K/year superintendent wouldn't have a cushy job any more, nor would the 2,000 plus highly motivated school system staff people who don't even have to perform at a medeocre level to keep their tax-payer supported job. </font color>

Drop1
12-31-2007, 08:05 PM
No baby is born with information,other than genetic,each one is an empty page,first comes the parents,and the socialization with the extended family,and their values. Hitler said it best,"give me a child for the first six years,and the rest of his life is mine". Next comes school,community values,and position within the community. Most kids are not dumb,they do what their parents do,and most of the parents are not curious about education,or have the ability to articulate the unintended consequences of no education. My son is a teacher,and my daughter in-law also teaches. On parent teachers night only one or two parents bother to show up. This thread should have been called "Parents are dumber than dirt"

hondo
01-01-2008, 09:19 AM
Parents who are involved in their kids' education, have kids who do very well.
Most parents are either overwhelmed or could care less and it shows. There's no other way to spin that, brother. It's the truth.
As for the rest of your comments, perhaps you're right.
I need to re-read your post after I've had some coffee. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

hondo
01-01-2008, 09:25 AM
Amen to all that, brother. I bet the conservatives are surprised that I agree with your post, but I've said the same thing for years.

hondo
01-01-2008, 09:31 AM
How many beatings does LWW have to take from you before he finally backs down. It's almost painful to watch.
I've found that most blowhards who are always accusing teachers of not teaching are usually pretty ignorant and haven't been aywhere near a classroom in years.

hondo
01-01-2008, 09:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Drop1:</font><hr> No baby is born with information,other than genetic,each one is an empty page,first comes the parents,and the socialization with the extended family,and their values. Hitler said it best,"give me a child for the first six years,and the rest of his life is mine". Next comes school,community values,and position within the community. Most kids are not dumb,they do what their parents do,and most of the parents are not curious about education,or have the ability to articulate the unintended consequences of no education. My son is a teacher,and my daughter in-law also teaches. On parent teachers night only one or two parents bother to show up. This thread should have been called "Parents are dumber than dirt" <hr /></blockquote>
True, but don't you know that evil liberals are keeping these interested parents away by giving them the wrong dates for P-T conference.
Damn those liberals and their evil plots!

hondo
01-01-2008, 09:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> You took that long to say that you based your opinion on ... blah, blah, blah...

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

Personal attack in lieu of addressing my post? Apparently it's not just the kids who are dumber than dirt. But we all knew that about you already - no reason to keep bringing it up other than to remind you of how you rank in our opinion. <hr /></blockquote>

It's time for him to go. Fast Larry was kicked off the forum for a lot less than this " honest, Christian gentleman" pulls.

LWW
01-01-2008, 09:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> You took that long to say that you based your opinion on ... blah, blah, blah...

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

Personal attack in lieu of addressing my post? Apparently it's not just the kids who are dumber than dirt. But we all knew that about you already - no reason to keep bringing it up other than to remind you of how you rank in our opinion. <hr /></blockquote>

It's time for him to go. Fast Larry was kicked off the forum for a lot less than this " honest, Christian gentleman" pulls. <hr /></blockquote>

http://www.sexhamster.com/weblog/macropics/tinfoil-hat.jpg

Realizing the hopelessness of his
situation, houndo pleads with the
admins to call it a TKO to protect
houndo who is just too dumb to just
shut up and leave people alone.

LWW

hondo
01-01-2008, 10:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> You took that long to say that you based your opinion on ... blah, blah, blah...

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

Personal attack in lieu of addressing my post? Apparently it's not just the kids who are dumber than dirt. But we all knew that about you already - no reason to keep bringing it up other than to remind you of how you rank in our opinion. <hr /></blockquote>

It's time for him to go. Fast Larry was kicked off the forum for a lot less than this " honest, Christian gentleman" pulls. <hr /></blockquote>

http://www.sexhamster.com/weblog/macropics/tinfoil-hat.jpg

Realizing the hopelessness of his
situation, houndo pleads with the
admins to call it a TKO to protect
houndo who is just too dumb to just
shut up and leave people alone.

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

Another fine Christian post.
Don't you think Jesus reads your posts?

LWW
01-01-2008, 10:26 AM
Invoking the Almighty now?

Desperation, thy name is houndo!

LWW

llotter
01-01-2008, 11:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote llotter:</font><hr> Critics of our schools often point to lack of involvement of parents as the problem but I contend that they are not involved because the important decisions have been usurped.
<hr /></blockquote>

I contend that students are not involved because attendance is compulsory instead of voluntary. High School needs to be made a privilege rather than a chore. Raise academic standards force students to take qualifying exams before allowing them to attend. For those who do attend set standards of performance that must be met in order to remain enrolled - just like college.

For the remainder? Send them to trade/tech schools and teach them job skills and real world survival skills including maintaining a checking account and balancing a budget. Teach them about the cost of living and what must be done to meet basic needs like paying rent and buying food.

DO NOT force kids to waste four years of their lives attending classes in which they have no interest and no intention of participating - much less excelling.

DO NOT force kids to waste four years of their lives dawdling in high school and then dump them out on the job market with no job skills and no understanding of how to cope in today's world.

GET OVER thinking that every child who attends high school is bound for college. Meet the needs of the majority who aren't by teaching them job skills and and how to make a living.

It's not rocket science. <hr /></blockquote>

You are about an inch from my preferred position of having the parents pay for their kid’s education instead of the taxpayers. I agree with you that compulsory attendance does not comport with the concept of individual freedom but if the parents were paying, I’m pretty sure the kids would not be messing around too much at the parent’s expense or they might be out diggin' ditch.

I don’t think, however, that it would be appropriate for government to institute a ‘class’ system of the educated and the tradesman though I believe that some European countries have such systems. I am especially averse to the federal government being involved at all in the education process not only because it is not in the Constitution but it is the most distant form parental control. If the taxpayer, even those with no kids of their own in school, are forced to continue supporting the education, control must be kept locally.

S0Noma
01-01-2008, 12:19 PM
"...who is just too dumb to just
shut up and leave people alone..."?

LWW

That's who.

LWW
01-01-2008, 12:42 PM
http://www.totalleh.com/beta192.gif


SODumba believes that by
rocking out to "IGGY AND
THE STOOGES" he can tune
out those pesky realities.

LWW

llotter
01-01-2008, 01:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> Parents who are involved in their kids' education, have kids who do very well.
Most parents are either overwhelmed or could care less and it shows. There's no other way to spin that, brother. It's the truth.
As for the rest of your comments, perhaps you're right.
I need to re-read your post after I've had some coffee. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

You should know that there is another way to spin it. Yes, parents who continue to be involved in public education almost always have kids that learn more about what is being taught. The other spin (and the better one) is that their ‘education’ is closer to an indoctrination by the many leftist in charge of the ed. establishment. Of course, the parents are themselves a product of this brainwashing that has been ruining the academic performance for several decades so they are only too happy to perpetuate their closed minded positions.

The environmentalists, the gays, the socialist, the atheists, the cultural relativists, the Darwinists etc., all insist on forcing their agendas in our schools even though they are well aware these are all very controversial. The one thing students today probably ‘know’ about our history is that Lincoln was gay and the Jefferson fathered a baby with his slave and Washington really lied about chopping down the cherry tree. They know more about condoms and ‘safe sex’ by age 10 than their grandparents knew in their whole life. They also know that it is better to be politically correct than correct. They know that there is really no ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ because, well, whose to say?

Yes, it is a new world we are building and while many of you on the left are seeing the failures, there is still no inclination to question your own suppositions.

S0Noma
01-01-2008, 01:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote llotter:</font><hr>

You are about an inch from my preferred position of having the parents pay for their kid’s education instead of the taxpayers. I agree with you that compulsory attendance does not comport with the concept of individual freedom but if the parents were paying, I’m pretty sure the kids would not be messing around too much at the parent’s expense or they might be out diggin' ditch.

<font color="blue">It's not only about compulsory. It's about the function of secondary education.

What is it that we want our kids to get from their primary and secondary education? Do we want them to do more than learn to read and write? do more than basic math? learn history in depth? The so-called 'basics'?

Or do we want to prepare them to go on to a higher education? Ideally we might want both.

Unfortunately, there are many people who do not grasp the function or value of a 'lower' education much less a higher one. Read that: If your parents are semi-literate and barely made it through high school they may not place a lot of value on their children outperforming them when their turn comes.

When I was a kid my father, who came of age during the Great Depression, was keen on the value of a college education. He didn't have one. He'd dropped out of school half way through his senior year and joined the Navy. He went on to get a GED but for most of the time he spent pursuing his Naval career the lack of a college degree held him back. He took that to heart and when we were growing up he and my mother never let up in their drive to get us kids to study hard and do well in school. Eventually? We all went on for college degrees. Was their roll in that process important? Immensely.

But back when dad was struggling to get ahead, college degrees were far more rare and hence, more highly valued than they are now. In the decades that have passed since the '30's, Bachelor's degrees have become almost commonplace.

So much so that now many employers can use the BA or BS degree as a broad filter to separate the eligible from ineligible job applicants. It's almost as if that undergraduate degree has become the 'starting point' for entering the job market with a prospect of being paid more than minimum wage.

If this is the case, and I think it is, how do we convince those semi-literate, barely made it through high school, parents that they need to be encouraging their kids to excel in high school in order to go on to college? This is NOT to say that not everyone who never carried their education beyond a high school diploma are semi-literate or lacking in intelligence.

But unless they've experienced problems getting ahead in life due to a lack of higher education? How are they going to grasp the their role in conveying the need for it to their kids? </font color>

I don’t think, however, that it would be appropriate for government to institute a ‘class’ system of the educated and the tradesman though I believe that some European countries have such systems.

<font color="blue">My oldest child went through the public education system here in Ca. She graduated from the University of California and went on for an advanced degree at an Ivy League school on the East Coast. We couldn't help but notice that once she got to that Ivy League school she was basically surrounded by classmates from well to do families. Kids who had been going to expensive private schools their entire lives. These kids were generally very well educated AND they were often headed for high paying jobs in businesses owned by family or friends of the family. These kids were connected to power and wealth and they were headed to become movers and shakers of tomorrow's world. I really don't think this is new news. Rich folks seeing that their kids get good educations and good jobs has been going on for a long, long time.

I mention this because I tend to agree that wealth begets wealth and poor begets poor. Having the money to send your child to the best private school with top notch instruction gives them a leg up on the kids whose parents can't afford to do the same. Furthermore? Many of the wealthy in this country could care less about the quality of public education.

Meanwhile, the rest of us poor slobs are stuck with it. Believe me I think it's in sad shape and needs a major work over. </font color>


I am especially averse to the federal government being involved at all in the education process not only because it is not in the Constitution but it is the most distant form parental control.

<font color="blue">Not sure if the right to a public education needs to be in the constitution to have value. As to parental control? That's a broad group you're talking about - lots of them lost 'control' over their kids a long time ago. See above for my feelings about how parents tend to rank the value of education and why. </font color>

If the taxpayer, even those with no kids of their own in school, are forced to continue supporting the education, control must be kept locally.

<font color="blue">I think it goes deeper than that. It's back to what it is that we as a nation want from the secondary education process. As it stands I don't think it's doing such a good job of addressing the needs of the students OR of society in general.

We are now competing economically on a world wide basis. Can we really afford to let our kids slip through the educational cracks while our foreign competitors aren't? </font color>
<hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> </font color>

S0Noma
01-01-2008, 01:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote llotter:</font><hr> The environmentalists, the gays, the socialist, the atheists, the cultural relativists, the Darwinists etc., all insist on forcing their agendas in our schools even though they are well aware these are all very controversial.
<hr /></blockquote>

Unmitigated hogwash.

llotter
01-01-2008, 03:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote llotter:</font><hr>

You are about an inch from my preferred position of having the parents pay for their kid’s education instead of the taxpayers. I agree with you that compulsory attendance does not comport with the concept of individual freedom but if the parents were paying, I’m pretty sure the kids would not be messing around too much at the parent’s expense or they might be out diggin' ditch.

<font color="blue">It's not only about compulsory. It's about the function of secondary education.

What is it that we want our kids to get from their primary and secondary education? Do we want them to do more than learn to read and write? do more than basic math? learn history in depth? The so-called 'basics'?
<font color="red">For me, the beauty of a free society is that the people are free to figure out for themselves how best to solve their own problems. I don't have to come up with a solution for them and even if i could, it would be a mistake. </font color>
Or do we want to prepare them to go on to a higher education? Ideally we might want both.

Unfortunately, there are many people who do not grasp the function or value of a 'lower' education much less a higher one. Read that: If your parents are semi-literate and barely made it through high school they may not place a lot of value on their children outperforming them when their turn comes. <font color="red">It is the habit of the Left to believe they know, their father knew but we are smarter than the average bloke who cannot be trusted to know what is best for themselves. </font color>

When I was a kid my father, who came of age during the Great Depression, was keen on the value of a college education. He didn't have one. He'd dropped out of school half way through his senior year and joined the Navy. He went on to get a GED but for most of the time he spent pursuing his Naval career the lack of a college degree held him back. He took that to heart and when we were growing up he and my mother never let up in their drive to get us kids to study hard and do well in school. Eventually? We all went on for college degrees. Was their roll in that process important? Immensely.

But back when dad was struggling to get ahead, college degrees were far more rare and hence, more highly valued than they are now. In the decades that have passed since the '30's, Bachelor's degrees have become almost commonplace.

So much so that now many employers can use the BA or BS degree as a broad filter to separate the eligible from ineligible job applicants. It's almost as if that undergraduate degree has become the 'starting point' for entering the job market with a prospect of being paid more than minimum wage.

If this is the case, and I think it is, how do we convince those semi-literate, barely made it through high school, parents that they need to be encouraging their kids to excel in high school in order to go on to college? This is NOT to say that not everyone who never carried their education beyond a high school diploma are semi-literate or lacking in intelligence. <font color="red"> Come again? </font color>

But unless they've experienced problems getting ahead in life due to a lack of higher education? How are they going to grasp the their role in conveying the need for it to their kids? </font color> <font color="red"> When common sense ruled instead of the Left, there didn't seem to be much of a problem for parents to know that getting an education was the path to improvement. Sense we traded common sense for elitist sense (or lack thereof), we are,admittedly, stuck with a lot of people without any common sense left. The solution will be a rough but it is to get back to using common sense by giving the elitist Left the boot. </font color>

I don’t think, however, that it would be appropriate for government to institute a ‘class’ system of the educated and the tradesman though I believe that some European countries have such systems.

<font color="blue">My oldest child went through the public education system here in Ca. She graduated from the University of California and went on for an advanced degree at an Ivy League school on the East Coast. We couldn't help but notice that once she got to that Ivy League school she was basically surrounded by classmates from well to do families. Kids who had been going to expensive private schools their entire lives. These kids were generally very well educated AND they were often headed for high paying jobs in businesses owned by family or friends of the family. These kids were connected to power and wealth and they were headed to become movers and shakers of tomorrow's world. I really don't think this is new news. Rich folks seeing that their kids get good educations and good jobs has been going on for a long, long time.

I mention this because I tend to agree that wealth begets wealth and poor begets poor. Having the money to send your child to the best private school with top notch instruction gives them a leg up on the kids whose parents can't afford to do the same. Furthermore? Many of the wealthy in this country could care less about the quality of public education. <font color="red">There is no doubt that rank has its priviliges and that is probably the best reason that people without rank/wealth want to achieve it. A free society offers the best opportunity to raise your status to gain wealth through education and work </font color>

Meanwhile, the rest of us poor slobs are stuck with it. Believe me I think it's in sad shape and needs a major work over. </font color> <font color="red"> Its always interesting to know peoples biography, especially one of such success and I congratulate you. </font color>


I am especially averse to the federal government being involved at all in the education process not only because it is not in the Constitution but it is the most distant form parental control.

<font color="blue">Not sure if the right to a public education needs to be in the constitution to have value. <font color="red">For us conservatives, sticking to the Constitution is at or near the top of what is important in maintaining a free society with limited government. Of course, the most valued things in a persons life not the provence of government at all. </font color> As to parental control? That's a broad group you're talking about - lots of them lost 'control' over their kids a long time ago. See above for my feelings about how parents tend to rank the value of education and why. </font color> <font color="red">There is no doubt that some parents aren't up to the parenting task but it is better to have some fail than to rig the system for failure as we have done. The easy answers have unintended consequences...before sex ed., 1 of 25 HS girls got pregnant, after, 1 in 5. </font color>

If the taxpayer, even those with no kids of their own in school, are forced to continue supporting the education, control must be kept locally.

<font color="blue">I think it goes deeper than that. It's back to what it is that we as a nation want from the secondary education process. As it stands I don't think it's doing such a good job of addressing the needs of the students OR of society in general.

We are now competing economically on a world wide basis. Can we really afford to let our kids slip through the educational cracks while our foreign competitors aren't? </font color>
<hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

hondo
01-01-2008, 03:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote llotter:</font><hr> The environmentalists, the gays, the socialist, the atheists, the cultural relativists, the Darwinists etc., all insist on forcing their agendas in our schools even though they are well aware these are all very controversial.
<hr /></blockquote>

Unmitigated hogwash. <hr /></blockquote>

Well, none of those agendas were being forced on kids in
my high school. Maybe Virginia is different than West Virginia. I don't know?
I have heard that there are a lot of P.C., tree-hugging,
commie, atheist, evolutionist fags in Va. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

llotter
01-01-2008, 03:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote llotter:</font><hr> The environmentalists, the gays, the socialist, the atheists, the cultural relativists, the Darwinists etc., all insist on forcing their agendas in our schools even though they are well aware these are all very controversial.
<hr /></blockquote>

Unmitigated hogwash. <hr /></blockquote>

Well, none of those agendas were being forced on kids in
my high school. Maybe Virginia is different than West Virginia. I don't know?
I have heard that there are a lot of P.C., tree-hugging,
commie, atheist, evolutionist fags in Va. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I was hoping to avoid a pissing contest of insults that seems to be the norm here and is not that easy when discussing anything with someone from WV, but I can see the states reputation an abundance of folks on the lower side of 80 IQ is more than just a myth.

llotter
01-01-2008, 04:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote llotter:</font><hr> The environmentalists, the gays, the socialist, the atheists, the cultural relativists, the Darwinists etc., all insist on forcing their agendas in our schools even though they are well aware these are all very controversial.
<hr /></blockquote>

Unmitigated hogwash. <hr /></blockquote>

Your comment makes my point that the Left in is stuck in a quasi-religios dogma that is far less tolerant than anything on the Right.

Thanks

hondo
01-01-2008, 04:16 PM
I tried to be funny. When I read all this conspiracy
theories about the left's evil agenda, I don't know how else to respond.
My apology.
Next time you post something like that, I'll just remain silent and think, " Holy Sh*t!"

S0Noma
01-01-2008, 05:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote llotter:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote llotter:</font><hr> The environmentalists, the gays, the socialist, the atheists, the cultural relativists, the Darwinists etc., all insist on forcing their agendas in our schools even though they are well aware these are all very controversial.
<hr /></blockquote>

Unmitigated hogwash. <hr /></blockquote>

Your comment makes my point that the Left in is stuck in a quasi-religios dogma that is far less tolerant than anything on the Right.

Thanks <hr /></blockquote>

The real point is that you and I, although we may have very different political or religious views, basically agree. I responded to your comments the way I did because you resorted to blaming. Blaming isn't going to change things, nor is it going to help us mend the problems in this country.

I'm an atheist. I'm not ashamed of that. I've had a very prosperous and fulfilling life and I don't feel the need to credit a supreme being with the good things that have happened to me - nor do I attach the influence of supernatural powers to the bad things that have happened to me. I own my actions. I own my mistakes and I try to learn from them.

You may have closely held religious beliefs and you may have had your own prosperous and fulfilling life. You may well credit a supreme being with having guided you on your path or assisted you through hard times. You may have an entirely different notion of how things work and how things are? I don't really care about that - it doesn't change who you are as a person to me.

We are both individuals who have earned what we've gotten through our own labors. We both appreciate individuality and the merits of hard work.

I've seen four of my own children matriculate through the public school system and I'm here to tell you that I think that system is a disaster. Not because of liberals, or atheists or Darwinians but because it's not producing the results we need to keep our country strong and competitive in a highly competitive world.

It's the inferior results that concern me. High school as it is no longer serves our needs as a society. Too many children are sliding through without learning basic coping skills. These are the same kids who continue living at home long after they should have moved out - or the ones who go on welfare because they can't figure out how to take care of themselves any other way.

Two many kids stagnate for four years while schools and community 'pretend to care' and then? Then they're spit out without any real future - no college to look forward to - no job skills - nothing and no one gives a rat's ass about them anymore. That's a shameful catastrophe.

My kids made it through and went on to seek a higher education but they didn't do it without prodding and encouragement and living by example from their parents - not to mention financial and emotional support. Fine - in a capitalist world (Darwinian model) it's an example of survival of the fittest. But is it really? Is it okay for me to call the success of my children sufficient? Or should I be paying attention to the needs of all those kids who are falling by the wayside due to a system that's failing to meet their needs?

The competitive world is nipping at our heels. We can't afford to ignore a problem that effects us all. Political and religious differences notwithstanding Lotr, this is OUR America and we both have to do what we can to make sure it has a future.

Qtec
01-01-2008, 08:15 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The environmentalists, the gays, the socialist, the atheists, the cultural relativists, the Darwinists etc., all insist on forcing their agendas in our schools even though they are well aware these are all very controversial. <hr /></blockquote>

Its not the atheists who are trying to FORCE their views into the classroom through the back-door. ID is controversial, Darwinism or evolution is not. Evolution is an excepted fact to all except the religious right in America.

What have the Liberals done for America?
This guy says it better than I could.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a fighting liberal

You know, I've studied history, I've read about America and you know something, if it weren't for liberals, we'd be living in a dark, evil country, far worse than anything Bush could conjure up. A world where children were told to piss on the side of the road because they weren't fit to pee in a white outhouse, where women had to get back alley abortions and where rape was a joke, unless the alleged criminal was black, whereupon he was hung from a tree and castrated.

What has conservatism given America? A stable social order? A peaceful homelife? Respect for law and order? No. Hell, no. It hasn't given us anything we didn't have and it wants to take away our freedoms.

The Founding Fathers, as flawed as they were, slaveowners and pornographers, smugglers and terrorists, understood one thing, a man's path to God needed no help from the state. Is the religion of these conservatives so fragile that they need the state to prop it up, to tell us how to pray and think? Is that what they stand for? Is that their America?

Conservatism plays on fear and thrives on lies and dishonesty. I grew up with honest, decent conservatives and those people have been replaced by the party of greed. It is one thing to want less government interference and smaller, fiscally responsible government. It is another thing entirely to be a corporate whore, selling out to the highest bidder because the CEO fattens your campaign chest. They are building an America which cannot be sustained. One based on the benefit of the few at the cost of the many. The indifferent boss who hires too few people and works them to death or until they break down sick. Cheap labor capitalism has replaced common sense. "Globalism" which is really guise for exploitation, replaced fair trade, which is nothing like fair for the trapped semi-slaves of the maquliadoras. In the Texas border towns, hundreds of these women have been used as sex slaves and then apparently killed,the FBI powerless to do anything as the criminals sit in Mexico untouched by law.

For the better part of a decade, the conservatives made liberal a dirty word. Well, it isn't. It represents the best and most noble nature of what America stands for: equitable government services, old age pensions, health care, education, fair trials and humane imprisonment. It is the heart and soul of what made American different and better than other countries. Not only an escape from oppression, but the opportunity to thrive in land free of tradition and the repression that can bring. We offered a democracy which didn't enshrine the rich and made them feel they had an obligation to their workers.

Bush and the people around him disdain that. They think, by accident of birth and circumstance, they were meant to rule the world and those who did not agree would suffer.

Liberal does not and has not meant weak until the conservatives said it did. Was Martin Luther King weak? Bobby Kennedy? Gene McCarthy? It was the liberals who remade this country and ended legal segregation and legal sexism. Not the conservatives, who wanted to hold on to the old ways.

It's time to regain the sprit of FDR and Truman and the people around them. People who believed in the public good over private gain. It is time to stop apologizing for being a liberal and be proud to fight for your beliefs. No more shying away or being defined by other people. Liberals believe in a strong defense and punishment for crime. But not preemption and pointless jail sentences. We believe no American should be turned away from a hospital because they are too poor or lack a proper legal defense. We believe that people should make enough from one job to live on, to spend time on raising their family. We believe that individuals and not the state should dictate who gets married and why. The best way to defend marriage is to expand, not restrict it.

It was the liberals who opposed the Nazis while the conservatives were plotting to get their brown shirts or fund Hitler. It was the liberals who warned about Spain and fought there, who joined the RAF to fight the Germans, who brought democracy to Germany and Japan. Let us not forget it was the conservatives who opposed defending America until the Germans sank our ships. They would have done nothing as Britain came under Nazi control. It was they who supported Joe McCarthy and his baseless, drink fueled claims.

Without liberals, there would be no modern America, just a Nazi sattlelite state. Liberals weak on defense? Liberals created America's defense. The conservatives only need vets at election time.

It is time to stop looking for an accomodation with the right. They want none for us. They want to win, at any price. So, you have a choice: be a fighting liberal or sit quietly. I know what I am, what are you?

posted by Steve @ 2:30:00 AM

Steve Gilliard <hr /></blockquote>

Q

hondo
01-01-2008, 08:38 PM
Excellent post, Q. Pretty much the way I see it.
To me , liberals have always been the true patriots.

eg8r
01-01-2008, 08:44 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Good post, Steve. One question. If all these vouchers were handed out by the government, and everybody in their right mind jumped on it, wouldn't the cost be exorbitant?
<hr /></blockquote> I seriously doubt it will be any more exorbitant than the already fledgling Education bills that the government has been passing for decades.

[ QUOTE ]
And wouldn't the private schools have to increase their tuition if their enrollment increased 5 fold or more? <hr /></blockquote> That does not affect the "little" people, these people will be getting vouchers anyways.

[ QUOTE ]
And wouldn't you see performance scores leveling off with all these average kids flooding into the private schools with their little vouchers?
<hr /></blockquote> Leveling off is better than "getting worse" which is where the current government funded education is going. I think what you are missing is that the teachers in a private school are paid to perform. Teachers in a public school are not paid to perform and they are totally covered by the union.

eg8r

bamadog
01-01-2008, 08:44 PM
What a pant load.

hondo
01-01-2008, 08:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bamadog:</font><hr> What a pant load. <hr /></blockquote>

I definitely am starting to see what you mean by engaging in a discussion of the issues. You certainly do that! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Qtec
01-01-2008, 09:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bamadog:</font><hr> What a pant load. <hr /></blockquote>

Thats your reply? LMAO

I give in Bama.
I bow to your superior intellect. LOL
Your above display of cunning wit and repartee was the turning point. I can't match that kind of rhetoric.


/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Q...........bama...hint........in a debate.........you should say why its a load of...............if you can....get it? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif










OMG..........just found this. LOL

web page (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=npr&amp;Number=269307&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1)
Bama
[ QUOTE ]
Thank you hondo.
If you'll notice, I'm trying to elevate the level of discourse here by getting people to rationally discuss the subjects.
Just slingin' trash is juvenile, and getting old. <hr /></blockquote>


/ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

wolfdancer
01-01-2008, 09:33 PM
looks like you could solve all America's problems...if you could only get rid of "The environmentalists, the gays, the socialist, the atheists, the cultural relativists, the "Darwinists etc"
AND impose your new world order on the rest."Yes, it is a new world we are building..."
I'll pray that this new, repackaged national socialism never sees the light of day.
BUT, maybe with a few word substitutions ...(liberals) for Jews, (Democrats) for social Democrats, (Conservative Republicans) forNational Socialists, (America) for Germany....and you might be able to sell this:
"The Dolchstosslegende, or "stab in the back"[citation needed] described by the National Socialists featured a claim that the war effort was sabotaged internally, in large part by Germany's Jews. The National Socialists suggested that a lack of patriotism had led to Germany's defeat (for one, the front line was off of German soil at the time of the armistice). In politics, criticism was directed at the Social Democrats and the Weimar government (Deutsches Reich 1919-1933), which the National Socialists accused of selling out the country. The concept of Dolchstosslegende led many to look at Jews and other so-called "non-Germans"[citation needed] living in Germany as having extra-national loyalties, thereby raising antisemitic sentiments and the Judenfrage (German for the "Jewish Question"[citation needed]), at a time when the Völkisch movement and a desire to create a Greater Germany were strong.

LWW is just a dingbat....you're kind of scary...

bamadog
01-01-2008, 10:31 PM
Right, that is my opinion of that opinion piece.
Notice, I didn't call anyone any names, did I?
Now, I could go through the piece point by point and offer rebuttal. But for whom? Why should I waste my time?
Nobody is going to actually debate that article with me.
I know it, and you know it.

Gayle in MD
01-02-2008, 01:38 AM
Good for you, Ed. You'll never regret it. Your kids are lucky that you value their education.

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
01-02-2008, 01:44 AM
BRAVO! Excellent post, friend. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Gayle in MD
01-02-2008, 02:17 AM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I get so tired of the Republican noise about free enterprise, free markets, no government regulations, government is bad, liberals ruined everything.

If the free market ideology is so great, how come we have to bail out corrupt mortgage companies, and savings and loans, and automobile corporations, left and right?

The market doesn't regulate itself, because corruption is at the root of the problem, and the rich at the top, do not regulate their own greed.

Things are never black and white. Without government regulations, standards go down the drain. When it comes to our schools, the parents, and the state, need to partner together, but the federal governmnet should contribute aid where it is appropriate, and stay out of dictating teaching programs. Most teachers are dedicated to their profession, and would be more able to do a great job, if the parents would follow up at home.

I believe in teaching the basics, and do not subscribe to the new fangled methods of teaching math and reading, but I think our teachers are the most undervalued, underpaid workers in this country. If parents do not take an interest in their children's education, they usually don't take much interest in their children in general. It always comes back to people becoming parents, who should never be parents in the first place, and living in a society where the top five percent in a country, hold all the wealth, and pretend to pay taxes, when in reality, the middle class is paying for no representation, and both parents have to work to keep a roof over their heads, and feed their kids.

Gayle in MD
01-02-2008, 02:36 AM
[ QUOTE ]
but that adding burdens of oversight and control and expense of government are essentially self-defeating..


<hr /></blockquote>

That presumes that the free market will regulate itself without the risk of greed and corruption which eventually impacts consummers in negative ways. Completely unrealistic.

Corporations do not self-regulate greed and corruption out of their methods, out of a sense of good conscience, and privitizing education would be the worst possible end, and would lead to a country where only the very rich could buy an eduacation for their children.

Republicans don't want oversight, and there's a good reason why they don't, because the corrupt do not want held accountable for what they do, but thankfully, our fore fathers understood corruption, and hence, accountability and oversight were written into our Constitution, along with a division of powers.

Your ideal world, doesn't exist. The world is not ideal, it is complex. Problems must be addressed in a way that is for the common good. Government's job is to govern in a way that benefits all the people, for WE THE PEOPLE.

Republicans propagate myths about the successes of government programs. Project Head Start, for example, was a great program, just as social security, is a great program, and it's financial circumstance, has been greatly exaggerated by Republicans.

The New Deal Democrats are the people who brought this country out of the pits, not the free market.

LWW
01-02-2008, 04:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>Its not the atheists who are trying to FORCE their views into the classroom through the back-door.

Q <hr /></blockquote>
Actually, that's EXACTLY what is happening ... and moonbats nationwide cheer as the USC is shredded daily by the most corrupt congress in US history. But, you knew that, you just don't care.

LWW

LWW
01-02-2008, 04:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr> It's the inferior results that concern me. High school as it is no longer serves our needs as a society. Too many children are sliding through without learning basic coping skills. These are the same kids who continue living at home long after they should have moved out - or the ones who go on welfare because they can't figure out how to take care of themselves any other way.

Two many kids stagnate for four years while schools and community 'pretend to care' and then? Then they're spit out without any real future - no college to look forward to - no job skills - nothing and no one gives a rat's ass about them anymore. That's a shameful catastrophe.

My kids made it through and went on to seek a higher education but they didn't do it without prodding and encouragement and living by example from their parents - not to mention financial and emotional support. Fine - in a capitalist world (Darwinian model) it's an example of survival of the fittest. But is it really? Is it okay for me to call the success of my children sufficient? Or should I be paying attention to the needs of all those kids who are falling by the wayside due to a system that's failing to meet their needs?

The competitive world is nipping at our heels. We can't afford to ignore a problem that effects us all. Political and religious differences notwithstanding Lotr, this is OUR America and we both have to do what we can to make sure it has a future.<hr /></blockquote>
I commend you on a sensible post.

Now, research results before and after the Dept of Ed came to be.

LWW

LWW
01-02-2008, 04:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>Q...........bama...hint........in a debate.........you should say why its a load of...............if you can....get it? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>
Because it's the opinion of a moonbat backed up by ... nothing?

That's my guess.

See, Q-lueless, you ALMOST get it.

If YOU make the claim as you did you should be willing to back it up.

You aren't.

Because you base your opinion on nothing.

Necause you are a moonbat.

LWW

pooltchr
01-02-2008, 05:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>
That presumes that the free market will regulate itself without the risk of greed and corruption which eventually impacts consummers in negative ways. Completely unrealistic. <hr /></blockquote>

Gayle,
That comment is completely unfair. You presume because SOME corporations can't self regulate themselves, that they must be all bad.
Let's take a look at just one industry. I'll use transportation, since I am familiar with it. Years ago, if you wanted to send me a letter, you used the post office (government run) and hoped it might get to me within a week or so. Along comes UPS, who found a way to move packages more efficiently and at a lower cost. Then FEDEX got in the game, and the competition made both companies even more efficient. Years later, the post office is still trying to catch up. While all 3 are price competitive, one still requires a huge influx of tax money in order to operate. The other two private businesses manage to compete through effective management. Fedex and UPS make money...the post office still operates at a loss.

Free Enterprise does work. All business is not bad...and in most cases, it is far superior to anything the government can do.

Steve

LWW
01-02-2008, 05:25 AM
Sir,

How dare you introduce logic to someone basing things on emotion.

LWW

Deeman3
01-02-2008, 07:06 AM
Hondo,

I think you and I have had this conversation before but I always thought of it as not so bad as it gave my kids and others who cared and communicated with their kids a very definite advantage in school where they left the other children behind.

However, now, as someone who is somewhst dependent on the product of the public schools for employees, I find it a challenge just to fill simple jobs and am much less able to find kids who have even a clue about math, mechanics and even survival skills. That. alomg with the disappearing work ethic leaves a void now filled by second language imigrants or the out sourcing of American jobs to other coountries where, even if the educational standards are not that high don't also come with very high expectations of unearned social programs.

I wish we all had "hang-out" jobs for American kids who did not prepare but most of us don't. I send stuff out of this country ever year because I can't find people who can be at work each day, put in a decent work and care about their results. While I have found a few hundred that do have these skills, I could use a few hundred more but it seems we have exausted the supply here and the schools are just providing people that barely qualify for McJobs. It's funny, now with the weaker dollar, I could manufacture cheaper here but there are no reliable people that care and are prepared to work.

It is frustrating but like you, I'll be giving up on it soon.

LWW
01-02-2008, 08:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>If the free market ideology is so great, how come we have to bail out corrupt mortgage companies, and savings and loans, and automobile corporations, left and right?<hr /></blockquote>
because credit markets woked fine for centuries.

You need:

1-Good history.
2-Abiliity to repay.
3-Sufficient collatera in case you don't.

Then, moonbats such as Senator Frank started pushing that the credit markets had inherent racism built in.

Lender then began credit scoring, turning people into numbers, and loand still came down to those 3 items.

Well, the same people were getting turned down although the scoring systems used could disprove or prove bias based on those scores.

Well, out of the woodworks come the moonbats threatening legal actions und CRIA if the lenders didn't start making riskier loans to riskier lenders.

Well, fearing the jackboot of moonbat gubmint, they went along.

Well, guess what happened?

These poor oppressed people, when given a better opportunity than they earned, didn't pay ... that's what.

Imagine that?

Making a $400K loan to someone who can't qualify for a Discover card was a bad idea?

Who would have ever guessed that?

Most anyone but a moonbat.

The r-truth is that markets DO work. Tampering with a market and then complaining that you get EXACTLY what the market predicted you would get is moonbatology 101.

Now, why do we bail out automakers? Because the DNC is beholden to the UAW in specific and unions in general, so the moonbats will often throw good money after bad ... but you knew that, it's just easier to blame Bush.

We agree on 2 things however, sheep are stupid and they do stink.

LWW

LWW

Gayle in MD
01-02-2008, 09:43 AM
Excellent post, Richard.

Gayle in MD
01-02-2008, 09:50 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I've found that most blowhards who are always accusing teachers of not teaching are usually pretty ignorant and haven't been aywhere near a classroom in years.


<hr /></blockquote>

Tap Tap Tap!

LWW
01-02-2008, 10:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>
&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
I've found that most blowhards who are always accusing teachers of not teaching are usually pretty ignorant and haven't been aywhere near a classroom in years.


<hr /></blockquote>

Tap Tap Tap!
<hr /></blockquote>
I've found that most people who defend our educational system are people who HAVE been inside the classrooms gor years ... and are a big part of the problem.

But, you both already new that.

LWW

Gayle in MD
01-02-2008, 10:07 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I tried to be funny. When I read all this conspiracy
theories about the left's evil agenda, I don't know how else to respond.
<hr /></blockquote>
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Just another right wing liberal hater, lol. You can't reason with the nutty 28%. They talk out of bother sides of their mouth.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

LWW
01-02-2008, 10:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
I tried to be funny. When I read all this conspiracy
theories about the left's evil agenda, I don't know how else to respond.
<hr /></blockquote>
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Just another right wing liberal hater, lol. You can't reason with the nutty 28%. They talk out of bother sides of their mouth.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>
Are you talking about the DNC and there support for tiorture again honey?

I'm sorry to tell you however, that if you are ... it's the nutty 11% and falling faster than Oprah chasing a Haagen-Das truck.

LWW

Gayle in MD
01-02-2008, 11:00 AM
Steve,
I don't think it's unfair at all. I see more damage from corporate corruption around me than this one example you pointed out, that is just one of many.

We now have a Republican driven effort to privatize everything from disaster control, to running our wars. The problem is the corruption.

We've been overcharged left and right by free enterprise, with no oversight, and poor results. Just look at the rotting trailors, and the missing billions in Iraq, and the negative results of companies like Black Hawk.

Free enterprise, with no government regulation or oversight brought us this mess in the Real Estate market, led to Insurance companies screwing over their policy holders, Enron, bilking Californians, and stock holders, and employees.

I see more corruption as time goes by, and IMO, it's a result of the Republican faulty belief system that Government is the enemy, and that the only thing that matters, is the bottom line.

That's not the American way, IMO. Not any more so than occupying countries, on lies, for oil, or torturing as a policy, even if it is outsourced to third world countries.

Tell me, if we occupied Iraq to help the people, and not for oil access, how come we didn't guard their museums, hospitals, libraries, churches, but ONLY the OIL FIELDS?

Reagan started this mess, and it's totally out of hand, IMO. Human corruption will always have to be kept in check with government laws and regulations. A government that has no priority on insuring a decent education for all its children, safe food and water, caring for our disadvantaged, and our old and ill, and offering some educational opportunities for the very poor to break out of poverty, is not the America that I want, nor is it an America for We The People.

No bid contracts in New Orleans, to Halliburton, when the residents who had lost everything needed jobs, provides us with what Government shouldn't be about.

I've seen more corruption, waste, and down right stealing of American tax payers money, with no representation or protection for the middle class in the last seven years than ever before. We can't even rely on these right wing neocons to hold China to fair trade practices, to gaurantee safe food and goods which are imported here, to prevent lead in our children's toys. The message is out from the top, don't do anything that hurts the corporate bottom line, even if it is literally killing children.

Now, Corporations are using disasters to steal from people who have lost their homes to natural disasters. Even the victims of disasters, are not spared.

Yet, we're all subdizing the very corporate fascists that are robbing us all blind.

No, the free market does not take care of itself. The top one tenth of one percent, doesn't give a damned about this country, or its people, and like it or not, they are calling the shots, deciding who is going to get the media attention required in order to have a run at the presidency, and deciding which wars will most benefit their bottom line. The religious right, the so called compassionate conservatives, better known as neocons, and the powerful Isreal lobby with media connections, are destroying democracy, and exploiting We The People, outsourcing our jobs, and robbing us blind, as we grunts pay our taxes, and they hide their money through rich friendly tax regulations. Unfortunately, many who vote for them, actually vote against their own best self interests, but that fact remains hidden beneath a boatload of right wing myth, and fear mongering tactics.

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
01-02-2008, 11:08 AM
Bravo Q! You're as American as can be, as far as I'm concerned, and I, for one, do not think you get the praise you deserve on this forum.

Thanks for being here.

Love,
Gayle

LWW
01-02-2008, 11:19 AM
Yet oddly you can substantiate none of this and bury your head deeper everytime contrary evidence hits the table.

Care to actually discuss things Gayle, or do you prefer to continue hiding behind your ever dwindling moonbat minions?

You have nothing to lose but your lack of knowledge.

LWW

bamadog
01-02-2008, 11:36 AM
Just another delusional rant from Gayle.

What else is new?

LWW
01-02-2008, 12:10 PM
As we have all came to know and love.

LWW

Deeman3
01-02-2008, 12:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> and the missing billions in Iraq, and the negative results of companies like Black Hawk.

Gayle in Md.
<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> I didn't know there was a company named Black Hawk. All this time, I thought it was a chopper..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color>

LWW
01-02-2008, 12:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> and the missing billions in Iraq, and the negative results of companies like Black Hawk.

Gayle in Md.
<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> I didn't know there was a company named Black Hawk. All this time, I thought it was a chopper..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color> <hr /></blockquote>
Once you accept the concept of "FAKE BUT ACCURATE" all else becomes immediately possible.

LWW

llotter
01-02-2008, 12:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> looks like you could solve all America's problems...if you could only get rid of "The environmentalists, the gays, the socialist, the atheists, the cultural relativists, the "Darwinists etc"
AND impose your new world order on the rest."Yes, it is a new world we are building..."
I'll pray that this new, repackaged national socialism never sees the light of day.
BUT, maybe with a few word substitutions ...(liberals) for Jews, (Democrats) for social Democrats, (Conservative Republicans) forNational Socialists, (America) for Germany....and you might be able to sell this:
"The Dolchstosslegende, or "stab in the back"[citation needed] described by the National Socialists featured a claim that the war effort was sabotaged internally, in large part by Germany's Jews. The National Socialists suggested that a lack of patriotism had led to Germany's defeat (for one, the front line was off of German soil at the time of the armistice). In politics, criticism was directed at the Social Democrats and the Weimar government (Deutsches Reich 1919-1933), which the National Socialists accused of selling out the country. The concept of Dolchstosslegende led many to look at Jews and other so-called "non-Germans"[citation needed] living in Germany as having extra-national loyalties, thereby raising antisemitic sentiments and the Judenfrage (German for the "Jewish Question"[citation needed]), at a time when the Völkisch movement and a desire to create a Greater Germany were strong.

LWW is just a dingbat....you're kind of scary... <hr /></blockquote>
It has become quite predictable thou still fascinating how the Left so readily accuses others of doing that which they themselves are so guilty. The only solution I have advocated on this thread or anywhere else is that parents should be the ones in charge of their own kid’s education. If fact, being in charge of your own life and that of your family is essence of what it means to be free.

Indeed, it is the fascists on the left, using the police powers of the state, that have steamrolled their agenda through the public school system in this country. Woe unto any parent or local school board that dares mention ‘traditional values’ or school prayer or, now, even mention of Christmas or Easter, customs that once were a part of everyday life in our schools. The storm troopers of the ACLU are more reminiscent of Nazi Germany, cleansing our culture of anything that smacks of religion, than anything I have suggested.

In saying that we are building a new world, I was referring to the world the Left was building without religion and the use of the word ‘we’ was meant in the universal sense. After all, even the conservatives, who are still part of the society, are being dragged along in spite of our protests.

A culture, a system of governance built on what the Left has to offer is bound to fail and I always hold out hope that as the failures mount all around us, as we can plainly see in our schools, the Left may come to reassess their positions. It does seem however, a futile hope in light of the discussion here and elsewhere.

LWW
01-02-2008, 01:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote llotter:</font><hr>It has become quite predictable thou still fascinating how the Left so readily accuses others of doing that which they themselves are so guilty. The only solution I have advocated on this thread or anywhere else is that parents should be the ones in charge of their own kid’s education. If fact, being in charge of your own life and that of your family is essence of what it means to be free.

Indeed, it is the fascists on the left, using the police powers of the state, that have steamrolled their agenda through the public school system in this country. Woe unto any parent or local school board that dares mention ‘traditional values’ or school prayer or, now, even mention of Christmas or Easter, customs that once were a part of everyday life in our schools. The storm troopers of the ACLU are more reminiscent of Nazi Germany, cleansing our culture of anything that smacks of religion, than anything I have suggested.

In saying that we are building a new world, I was referring to the world the Left was building without religion and the use of the word ‘we’ was meant in the universal sense. After all, even the conservatives, who are still part of the society, are being dragged along in spite of our protests.

A culture, a system of governance built on what the Left has to offer is bound to fail and I always hold out hope that as the failures mount all around us, as we can plainly see in our schools, the Left may come to reassess their positions. It does seem however, a futile hope in light of the discussion here and elsewhere.<hr /></blockquote>
AMEN BROTHER!

PREACH ON!

You see it here every day.

A moonbat POTUS does nothing to keep Enron in check. After it blows up who do the moonbats blame? Bush.

A moonbat congress threatens litigation if they dion't start making bad credit decisions. After it blows up who do the moonbats blame? Bush.

A moonbat POTUS ignores AQ, decides it's criminal not war, ignores chances to off UBL, stops intelligence agencies from sharing data that provided the only shot we had at stopping 9/11. After it blows up who do the moonbats blame? Bush.

P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C-!

But, we all knew that.

LWW

wolfdancer
01-02-2008, 01:24 PM
your post has the usual outstanding flaw, of trying to pair up anybody not voting Republican as Godless, or an Atheist.
I have my own problems with the ACLU....which doesn't define the left, by the way....despite your claims.
So how do you think we can get rid of all these dissidents, "cleanse" the country, and impose your one party ruling system?
AND the steps GWB has taken in the middle east are the beginnings of this "brave new world"?

S0Noma
01-02-2008, 01:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote llotter:</font><hr> Indeed, it is the fascists on the left, using the police powers of the state, that have steamrolled their agenda through the public school system in this country. Woe unto any parent or local school board that dares mention ‘traditional values’ or school prayer or, now, even mention of Christmas or Easter, customs that once were a part of everyday life in our schools. The storm troopers of the ACLU are more reminiscent of Nazi Germany, cleansing our culture of anything that smacks of religion, than anything I have suggested.

In saying that we are building a new world, I was referring to the world the Left was building without religion and the use of the word ‘we’ was meant in the universal sense.

<hr /></blockquote>

In your opinion would allowing religious practices back into the schools be beneficial?

What about the Middle East? Do you really think the fundamentalist Muslim's are better off letting their religious views influence everything about their society - including what is taught in their schools?

LWW
01-02-2008, 01:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> your post has the usual outstanding flaw, of trying to pair up anybody not voting Republican as Godless, or an Atheist.
I have my own problems with the ACLU....which doesn't define the left, by the way....despite your claims.
So how do you think we can get rid of all these dissidents, "cleanse" the country, and impose your one party ruling system?
AND the steps GWB has taken in the middle east are the beginnings of this "brave new world"? <hr /></blockquote>
Did you right that backwards wso that when it was held to a mirror it was readable?

LWW

LWW
01-02-2008, 01:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr>In your opinion would allowing religious practices back into the schools be beneficial?<hr /></blockquote>
Blatant misdirection #1.

NOBODY has suggested that, in fact I don't think the situation you describe EVER existed.

What you also miss is that the moonbats take separation between church AND state to mean separation of church FROM state.

To reverse things, and toss in treality, do you honestly believe that allowing for a moment of prayer/silence and allowing students who wish to attend to have after school Bible study would actually make things worse?

LWW

LWW
01-02-2008, 01:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr>What about the Middle East? Do you really think the fundamentalist Muslim's are better off letting their religious views influence everything about their society - including what is taught in their schools?<hr /></blockquote>
Misdirection #2. Implying equality between parentys who want their children to be allowed to pray in school and parents who want their children taught to be homicide bombers.

You see, 1 teaches love and forgiveness while thge other teaches murder and hatred.

That is where the moonbats and the "ALL POV'S ARE EQUAL" get completely lost as they clearly aren't.

LWW

hondo
01-02-2008, 02:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>
&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
I've found that most blowhards who are always accusing teachers of not teaching are usually pretty ignorant and haven't been aywhere near a classroom in years.


<hr /></blockquote>

Tap Tap Tap!
<hr /></blockquote>
I've found that most people who defend our educational system are people who HAVE been inside the classrooms gor years ... and are a big part of the problem.

But, you both already new that.

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

You lie, trailer trash.

hondo
01-02-2008, 02:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
I tried to be funny. When I read all this conspiracy
theories about the left's evil agenda, I don't know how else to respond.
<hr /></blockquote>
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Just another right wing liberal hater, lol. You can't reason with the nutty 28%. They talk out of bother sides of their mouth.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>
Are you talking about the DNC and there support for tiorture again honey?

I'm sorry to tell you however, that if you are ... it's the nutty 11% and falling faster than Oprah chasing a Haagen-Das truck.

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

You lie, trailer trash.

hondo
01-02-2008, 02:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> Yet oddly you can substantiate none of this and bury your head deeper everytime contrary evidence hits the table.

Care to actually discuss things Gayle, or do you prefer to continue hiding behind your ever dwindling moonbat minions?

You have nothing to lose but your lack of knowledge.

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

You lie, trailer trash.

hondo
01-02-2008, 02:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> As we have all came to know and love.

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

You lie, trailer trash.

hondo
01-02-2008, 02:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> and the missing billions in Iraq, and the negative results of companies like Black Hawk.

Gayle in Md.
<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> I didn't know there was a company named Black Hawk. All this time, I thought it was a chopper..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color> <hr /></blockquote>
Once you accept the concept of "FAKE BUT ACCURATE" all else becomes immediately possible.

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

You lie, trailer trash.

hondo
01-02-2008, 02:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote llotter:</font><hr>It has become quite predictable thou still fascinating how the Left so readily accuses others of doing that which they themselves are so guilty. The only solution I have advocated on this thread or anywhere else is that parents should be the ones in charge of their own kid’s education. If fact, being in charge of your own life and that of your family is essence of what it means to be free.

Indeed, it is the fascists on the left, using the police powers of the state, that have steamrolled their agenda through the public school system in this country. Woe unto any parent or local school board that dares mention ‘traditional values’ or school prayer or, now, even mention of Christmas or Easter, customs that once were a part of everyday life in our schools. The storm troopers of the ACLU are more reminiscent of Nazi Germany, cleansing our culture of anything that smacks of religion, than anything I have suggested.

In saying that we are building a new world, I was referring to the world the Left was building without religion and the use of the word ‘we’ was meant in the universal sense. After all, even the conservatives, who are still part of the society, are being dragged along in spite of our protests.

A culture, a system of governance built on what the Left has to offer is bound to fail and I always hold out hope that as the failures mount all around us, as we can plainly see in our schools, the Left may come to reassess their positions. It does seem however, a futile hope in light of the discussion here and elsewhere.<hr /></blockquote>
AMEN BROTHER!

PREACH ON!

You see it here every day.

A moonbat POTUS does nothing to keep Enron in check. After it blows up who do the moonbats blame? Bush.

A moonbat congress threatens litigation if they dion't start making bad credit decisions. After it blows up who do the moonbats blame? Bush.

A moonbat POTUS ignores AQ, decides it's criminal not war, ignores chances to off UBL, stops intelligence agencies from sharing data that provided the only shot we had at stopping 9/11. After it blows up who do the moonbats blame? Bush.

P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C-!

But, we all knew that.

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

You lie, trailer trash.

hondo
01-02-2008, 02:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> your post has the usual outstanding flaw, of trying to pair up anybody not voting Republican as Godless, or an Atheist.
I have my own problems with the ACLU....which doesn't define the left, by the way....despite your claims.
So how do you think we can get rid of all these dissidents, "cleanse" the country, and impose your one party ruling system?
AND the steps GWB has taken in the middle east are the beginnings of this "brave new world"? <hr /></blockquote>
Did you right that backwards wso that when it was held to a mirror it was readable?

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

You lie. trailer trash.

hondo
01-02-2008, 02:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr>What about the Middle East? Do you really think the fundamentalist Muslim's are better off letting their religious views influence everything about their society - including what is taught in their schools?<hr /></blockquote>
Misdirection #2. Implying equality between parentys who want their children to be allowed to pray in school and parents who want their children taught to be homicide bombers.

You see, 1 teaches love and forgiveness while thge other teaches murder and hatred.

That is where the moonbats and the "ALL POV'S ARE EQUAL" get completely lost as they clearly aren't.

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

Whew! You post a lot!
Oh, well. You lie, trailer trash.

wolfdancer
01-02-2008, 02:49 PM
Hey, "Rocky"...check the message board....while you imagine that you are the leader here for the right, Larry not also espouses the same extremists views as you do...but also seems to be twice as smart. He gets his point across, without the repetitive schoolyard taunts and insults that you are forced to resort to.
So my advice to you....don't waste your valuable time trying to be sarcastic and witty, replying to me.....since you have an ally, suck up to him, and maybe, just maybe....he'll back you up like Bama tries to. Don't forget that your popularity here is lower then Bush's at a Veteran's hospital...and you really could use some friends.
That's just some friendly advice from me to start the new year off on a positive.

llotter
01-02-2008, 03:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bamadog:</font><hr> Right, that is my opinion of that opinion piece.
Notice, I didn't call anyone any names, did I?
Now, I could go through the piece point by point and offer rebuttal. But for whom? Why should I waste my time?
Nobody is going to actually debate that article with me.
I know it, and you know it. <hr /></blockquote>

I couldn't agree with you more, bama. It really is incredibly scary that anyone would bother to post such idiocy and then that some others here would endorse it. No doubt he learned his history from comic books and the movies but even then he misunderstood it.

llotter
01-02-2008, 03:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr>What about the Middle East? Do you really think the fundamentalist Muslim's are better off letting their religious views influence everything about their society - including what is taught in their schools?<hr /></blockquote>
Misdirection #2. Implying equality between parentys who want their children to be allowed to pray in school and parents who want their children taught to be homicide bombers.

You see, 1 teaches love and forgiveness while thge other teaches murder and hatred.

That is where the moonbats and the "ALL POV'S ARE EQUAL" get completely lost as they clearly aren't.

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

Right on target, LWW. Though I might have said that many here have come to accept that multi-culturalism is the gospel and can never bring themselves to be judgemental. This is because they have no faith in their own beliefs...if they have any, that is.

llotter
01-02-2008, 04:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr>

In your opinion would allowing religious practices back into the schools be beneficial?
<hr /></blockquote>

What I have been advocating is to let parent's free choice decide what is best for their kids education. I have little doubt that many parents would want their schools to be more supportive of their own beliefs. If there are newly discovered constitutional issues that prevent that, then we need to do away with all government support of schools rather than dilute the parents rights.

bsmutz
01-02-2008, 04:16 PM
American kids may be dumber than dirt, but we won't really have a problem until they are as dumb (&amp; illiterate) as El Dumbo.

Gayle in MD
01-02-2008, 04:24 PM
I think you knew what I meant, /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif, but if correcting me is your priority, have at it. I see plenty of errors in your posts, but haven't felt it necessary to point them out.

Gayle in MD
01-02-2008, 04:34 PM
The "Left" is not building a world without religion, it is hoping to maintain a country in which people, ansd government, remain free of religious condemnation, religious dictation, and religious interferrence in scientific advances.

You say being in charge of ones own life is what you believe in. Then you follow that up by demonizing gays, for example. I suppose they don't deserve that option? Women, don't have the right to plan their families as they please, or have an abortion, if that is what they choose?

You're not kidding anyone. You're just another fundalmentalist, looking to force your subjective ideas of right and wrong upon all others.

Religious freedom, and religious dictation, are two different things. You don't get to decide what values all others must subscribe to, according to your own personal belief system. Sorry, move to Saudi Arabia, and you can have all of that you want.

Gayle in Md.

llotter
01-02-2008, 04:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> your post has the usual outstanding flaw, of trying to pair up anybody not voting Republican as Godless, or an Atheist. <font color="red"> Is this your debating tactic to make up something out of whole cloth, impute it to what I've said and then call it an outstanding flaw? Really cool but not particularly helpful </font color>
I have my own problems with the ACLU....which doesn't define the left, by the way....despite your claims. <font color="red">I was only using the ACLU as an example of how the Left impliments its agenda. Additionally, of course, there are the legislatures and the courts and myrid interest groups that seem to drive public discourse into the gutter </font color>
So how do you think we can get rid of all these dissidents, "cleanse" the country, and impose your one party ruling system? <font color="red"> Again, I only advocating free choice amoung citizens, about the opposite of one party rule. And, I said nothing about cleansing dissidents. </font color>
AND the steps GWB has taken in the middle east are the beginnings of this "brave new world"? <font color="red">Totally detached from anything I've said in the thread or anybody else as far as I've noticed. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

While there seems to be a certain sincerity in your comments, they are so far afield as to make me think you are just jerkin' my chain for the fun of it. I do enjoy debating but don't particularly like being the butt of your little joke.

llotter
01-02-2008, 05:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> The "Left" is not building a world without religion, it is hoping to maintain a country in which people, ansd government, remain free of religious condemnation, religious dictation, and religious interferrence in scientific advances.

You say being in charge of ones own life is what you believe in. <font color="red">Let me just rephrase that a bit; I believe in individual freedom and responsibility </font color> Then you follow that up by demonizing gays, for example. <font color="red">There you go again. I did nothing of the sort. What I said was that gays, along with a coalition from the Left, essentially ganged up and successfully demonized those that have strong religious beliefs. The lefties are totally free to practice their beliefs in our schools but the religious folk have to check theirs at the door. It is the religious citizens who have been demonized, just consider the comments here whenever Christian beliefs are mentioned. Their input is not only unwelcome but belittled as though they had no legitimacy at all (delegitimized). </font color> I suppose they don't deserve that option? <font color="red">They have their option, in spades. </font color> Women, don't have the right to plan their families as they please, or have an abortion, if that is what they choose? <font color="red">It's so funny that you are so up in arms about torture but sucking little babies through a tube or jamming sissors into their skull is perfectly normal as long as you can't hear them scream. Take up cause for the enemy while killing your own without a second thought. This is the godless world (the Left) is building for us. Have you no shame???? </font color>

You're not kidding anyone. You're just another fundalmentalist, looking to force your subjective ideas of right and wrong upon all others. <font color="red">The one thing I can guarantee is that you would be very surprised about my religious beliefs so don't assume you know. </font color>

Religious freedom, and religious dictation, are two different things. <font color="red">Who in hell is doing the dictating here, the these storm troopers that have managed to cleanes the public square of religion or those who to assemble for voluntary prayer wherever they want?? </font color> You don't get to decide what values all others must subscribe to, according to your own personal belief system. <font color="red">In case you haven't read anything I've written, I have eshewed deciding what values others may want...all I have said is that everyone should decide for themselves. Again, totally the opposite of how you characterized it. Where on earth are you folks getting this stuff? </font color> Sorry, move to Saudi Arabia, and you can have all of that you want.

Gayle in Md.

<hr /></blockquote>

Gayle, I appreciate your shorter comments cause the long ones are difficult to respond to. And I appreciate the fact that you almostt always avoid degenerating into name calling.

wolfdancer
01-02-2008, 05:35 PM
"It has become quite predictable thou still fascinating how the Left so readily accuses others of doing that which they themselves are so guilty. The only solution I have advocated on this thread or anywhere else is that parents should be the ones in charge of their own kid’s education. If fact, being in charge of your own life and that of your family is essence of what it means to be free.

Indeed, it is the fascists on the left, using the police powers of the state, that have steamrolled their agenda through the public school system in this country. Woe unto any parent or local school board that dares mention ‘traditional values’ or school prayer or, now, even mention of Christmas or Easter, customs that once were a part of everyday life in our schools. The storm troopers of the ACLU are more reminiscent of Nazi Germany, cleansing our culture of anything that smacks of religion, than anything I have suggested.

In saying that we are building a new world, I was referring to the world the Left was building without religion and the use of the word ‘we’ was meant in the universal sense. After all, even the conservatives, who are still part of the society, are being dragged along in spite of our protests.

A culture, a system of governance built on what the Left has to offer is bound to fail and I always hold out hope that as the failures mount all around us, as we can plainly see in our schools, the Left may come to reassess their positions. It does seem however, a futile hope in light of the discussion here and elsewhere."
What else could one read into that statement after the first paragraph?
"Fascist left, cleansing,anti-religion, etc" You blame all societies failures on the left....and try to make it a good Vs evil scenario....I'm not buying it
I wasn't joking...in dumping the extremist agendas of some...onto anybody not a CCR ...you come across as an extremist yourself.

LWW
01-02-2008, 05:41 PM
Please explain what the DNC platform is, if noot de facto this:

1-Lose all wars at any cost.
2-Bush is the real terrorist.
3-Saddam wasn't such a bad guy.
4-Abortions for everyone interested at taxpayer expense.
5-Piss-Christ at taxpayer expense.
6-Better that 10,000 should die lest 1 be offended ... unless they voted for Bush.
7-We are against torture when it polls well and oppose it when it doesn't.
8-Tax the producers.
9-Reward failure.

LWW

hondo
01-02-2008, 06:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote llotter:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> your post has the usual outstanding flaw, of trying to pair up anybody not voting Republican as Godless, or an Atheist. <font color="red"> Is this your debating tactic to make up something out of whole cloth, impute it to what I've said and then call it an outstanding flaw? Really cool but not particularly helpful </font color>
I have my own problems with the ACLU....which doesn't define the left, by the way....despite your claims. <font color="red">I was only using the ACLU as an example of how the Left impliments its agenda. Additionally, of course, there are the legislatures and the courts and myrid interest groups that seem to drive public discourse into the gutter </font color>
So how do you think we can get rid of all these dissidents, "cleanse" the country, and impose your one party ruling system? <font color="red"> Again, I only advocating free choice amoung citizens, about the opposite of one party rule. And, I said nothing about cleansing dissidents. </font color>
AND the steps GWB has taken in the middle east are the beginnings of this "brave new world"? <font color="red">Totally detached from anything I've said in the thread or anybody else as far as I've noticed. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

While there seems to be a certain sincerity in your comments, they are so far afield as to make me think you are just jerkin' my chain for the fun of it. I do enjoy debating but don't particularly like being the butt of your little joke. <hr /></blockquote>

Larry, I don't always agree with you but I usually enjoy your comments and feel you have a lot to say.
Don't be so sensitive to criticism.
You are held in much higher regard on here than the three amigos.

hondo
01-02-2008, 06:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> Please explain what the DNC platform is, if noot de facto this:

1-Lose all wars at any cost.
2-Bush is the real terrorist.
3-Saddam wasn't such a bad guy.
4-Abortions for everyone interested at taxpayer expense.
5-Piss-Christ at taxpayer expense.
6-Better that 10,000 should die lest 1 be offended ... unless they voted for Bush.
7-We are against torture when it polls well and oppose it when it doesn't.
8-Tax the producers.
9-Reward failure.

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

You lie, trailer trash.

pooltchr
01-02-2008, 06:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Steve,
I don't think it's unfair at all. I see more damage from corporate corruption around me than this one example you pointed out, that is just one of many.

We now have a Republican driven effort to privatize everything from disaster control, to running our wars. The problem is the corruption.

We've been overcharged left and right by free enterprise, with no oversight, and poor results. Just look at the rotting trailors, and the missing billions in Iraq, and the negative results of companies like Black Hawk.

Free enterprise, with no government regulation or oversight brought us this mess in the Real Estate market, led to Insurance companies screwing over their policy holders, Enron, bilking Californians, and stock holders, and employees.

I see more corruption as time goes by, and IMO, it's a result of the Republican faulty belief system that Government is the enemy, and that the only thing that matters, is the bottom line.

That's not the American way, IMO. Not any more so than occupying countries, on lies, for oil, or torturing as a policy, even if it is outsourced to third world countries.

Tell me, if we occupied Iraq to help the people, and not for oil access, how come we didn't guard their museums, hospitals, libraries, churches, but ONLY the OIL FIELDS?

Reagan started this mess, and it's totally out of hand, IMO. Human corruption will always have to be kept in check with government laws and regulations. A government that has no priority on insuring a decent education for all its children, safe food and water, caring for our disadvantaged, and our old and ill, and offering some educational opportunities for the very poor to break out of poverty, is not the America that I want, nor is it an America for We The People.

No bid contracts in New Orleans, to Halliburton, when the residents who had lost everything needed jobs, provides us with what Government shouldn't be about.

I've seen more corruption, waste, and down right stealing of American tax payers money, with no representation or protection for the middle class in the last seven years than ever before. We can't even rely on these right wing neocons to hold China to fair trade practices, to gaurantee safe food and goods which are imported here, to prevent lead in our children's toys. The message is out from the top, don't do anything that hurts the corporate bottom line, even if it is literally killing children.

Now, Corporations are using disasters to steal from people who have lost their homes to natural disasters. Even the victims of disasters, are not spared.

Yet, we're all subdizing the very corporate fascists that are robbing us all blind.

No, the free market does not take care of itself. The top one tenth of one percent, doesn't give a damned about this country, or its people, and like it or not, they are calling the shots, deciding who is going to get the media attention required in order to have a run at the presidency, and deciding which wars will most benefit their bottom line. The religious right, the so called compassionate conservatives, better known as neocons, and the powerful Isreal lobby with media connections, are destroying democracy, and exploiting We The People, outsourcing our jobs, and robbing us blind, as we grunts pay our taxes, and they hide their money through rich friendly tax regulations. Unfortunately, many who vote for them, actually vote against their own best self interests, but that fact remains hidden beneath a boatload of right wing myth, and fear mongering tactics.

Gayle in Md.
<hr /></blockquote>

Gayle,
The discussion was about schools, and whether or not the government is best suited to handle our children's education or whether private schools can do a better job.

How can you defend government schools, when you chose private schools for your own kids? Are government schools good enough for everyone else?

Please try and limit your answer to the three sentences above. Thank you.
Steve

hondo
01-02-2008, 06:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr>.LWW said,"Bush is the real terrorist."


LWW <hr /></blockquote>

Maybe there's hope for you after all, son.

hondo
01-02-2008, 06:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr>

Abortions for everyone.
Piss-Christ

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

The moral majority can't be pleased with those comments,TT!
Some Christian you are.
You can end this ,TT. You know what to do.
I'm praying for you, buddy. Do the right thing.
Re-read my response to you when you suggested a truce.
Quote Hondo: I hope you have a wonderful year and all of your dreams come true.
And then you stabbed me in the back on here, BrutASS.
I'll houndo you forever as long as you take my quote out of context. I'm not bored anymore. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Bobbyrx
01-02-2008, 06:24 PM
"For the remainder? Send them to trade/tech schools and teach them job skills and real world survival skills including maintaining a checking account and balancing a budget. Teach them about the cost of living and what must be done to meet basic needs like paying rent and buying food.

DO NOT force kids to waste four years of their lives attending classes in which they have no interest and no intention of participating - much less excelling.

DO NOT force kids to waste four years of their lives dawdling in high school and then dump them out on the job market with no job skills and no understanding of how to cope in today's world.

"GET OVER thinking that every child who attends high school is bound for college. Meet the needs of the majority who aren't by teaching them job skills and and how to make a living."
<font color="red"> I like this idea. If someone wants to be a plumber or electrician, why should he have to read Chaucer? May sound crazy but I think this idea would cut the crime rate. It seems that our prisons are filled with high school drop outs or high school grads who were 16-18 with no job skills or training, so when they needed money...robbery, drug selling etc </font color>

hondo
01-02-2008, 06:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bobbyrx:</font><hr> "For the remainder? Send them to trade/tech schools and teach them job skills and real world survival skills including maintaining a checking account and balancing a budget. Teach them about the cost of living and what must be done to meet basic needs like paying rent and buying food.

DO NOT force kids to waste four years of their lives attending classes in which they have no interest and no intention of participating - much less excelling.

DO NOT force kids to waste four years of their lives dawdling in high school and then dump them out on the job market with no job skills and no understanding of how to cope in today's world.

"GET OVER thinking that every child who attends high school is bound for college. Meet the needs of the majority who aren't by teaching them job skills and and how to make a living."
<font color="red"> I like this idea. If someone wants to be a plumber or electrician, why should he have to read Chaucer? May sound crazy but I think this idea would cut the crime rate. It seems that our prisons are filled with high school drop outs or high school grads who were 16-18 with no job skills or training, so when they needed money...robbery, drug selling etc </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Bobby, I even taught Chaucer for 30 years and I like the idea. I've been pushing more trade &amp; technology classes
for years but they're decreasing in my area rather than increasing.
The kids need so many credits anymore there's no budgeting for vocational classes. It's a joke.

llotter
01-02-2008, 07:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>

What else could one read into that statement after the first paragraph?
"Fascist left, cleansing,anti-religion, etc" You blame all societies failures on the left....and try to make it a good Vs evil scenario....I'm not buying it
I wasn't joking...in dumping the extremist agendas of some...onto anybody not a CCR ...you come across as an extremist yourself.
<hr /></blockquote>
It was you that first labeled conservative Republicans as Nazis and that I wanted to cleanse our society of the dissidents. I merely pointed out that it was those on the other side that actually used the Nazi tactics and did, in fact, cleanse the public square of religous meaning. That seems to be to be perfectly fair to point out. It does seem that you feel entitled to call us conservatives Nazis but conservatives should be held to a higher standard. I sorta agree that we should be setting a higher standard but I like to cheat a little.

Gayle in MD
01-02-2008, 08:00 PM
[ QUOTE ]
There you go again. I did nothing of the sort. What I said was that gays, along with a coalition from the Left, essentially ganged up and successfully demonized those that have strong religious beliefs. <font color="red">I think that is total bull. I have seen no evidence of gays attacking the religious, or their beliefs, and on the contrary, it's much more like gays are publicly being attacked by the religious right, day in and day out, called sinners, and degenerates, by the religious leaders of the Christian Coalition, even to the point of being blamed by the Falwell's of your Christian Coalition for the attack on 9/11. </font color> The lefties are totally free to practice their beliefs in our schools but the religious folk have to check theirs at the door. [ QUOTE ]
Baloney! The public school system is not responsible for providing religious guidence, and never was, nor should it be. The traditional morning prayer, was determined by the Supreme Court of our nation, to be inappropriate in the public school system. Stop laying that at the feet of liberals. None other than Barry Goldwater, railed against the Christian Coalition, and their attempt to lobby according to their religious beliefs, and threaten law makers with their power. <hr /></blockquote> It is the religious citizens who have been demonized, <font color="red">I don't see anyone forbidding freedom to worship, and if organized religion has been marginalized, perhaps the deeds of the bible thumping pliticians, who try to parlay their Christian beliefs into political gain, for ulterrior purposes, like George Bush, have brought some criticism on themselves, since such bravado has no place in our political arena. </font color> just consider the comments here whenever Christian beliefs are mentioned. Their input is not only unwelcome but belittled as though they had no legitimacy at all (delegitimized). <font color="red">So what do you require? You're not satisfied with religious freedom, you want to shove it down everyone else's throat, and deny that others have a right to call you down for absurd ideology, which has no historical scientific basis, or proof. Faith, is just that. It is not reality, it is faith, without proof. You have every right to practice your faith. You do not have a right to demand that others approve and agree. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

[ QUOTE ]
It's so funny that you are so up in arms about torture but sucking little babies through a tube or jamming sissors into their skull is perfectly normal as long as you can't hear them scream. <font color="red">You have a lot of nerve to assume that you know what I think, or how I feel. No one is for abortion. Even those who have them, are not for them. What I disapprove of is men in black robes, or Christian Fundalmentalists, or the United States government, imposing their wishes into the private decisions of women. Your religious rights, do not penetrate inside a woman's womb, much as you would like them to, nor should they. You have no right to impose your beliefs upon others, period. </font color> Take up cause for the enemy <font color="red">Again, another lie. I suppport no enemy of my country, I leave that to the republicans, they have the franchise on that one. </font color> while killing your own without a second thought. <font color="red">Again, presumptous, and outrageous slander, I have never killed anything except one damn duck. </font color> This is the godless world (the Left) is building for us. Have you no shame???? <font color="red">No, you are a good example why American must be watchful, since you are obviously emotionally unbalanced, and believe that your reality, is THE reality. That, is not reality, and you attack others, whom you do not even know, and superimpose your sick ideology as you please. Have YOU no shame? Who are you to judge all others? Who are you to impose your values, upon others. Being Christian, does not guarantee reasonable, logical thinking, I believe history has proven that, over and over again.</font color>

[ QUOTE ]
The one thing I can guarantee is that you would be very surprised about my religious beliefs so don't assume you know.
<hr /></blockquote> <font color="red"> You mean, unlike you have done, regarding me? You have a lot of nerve to be warning me against being presumptuous. I don't care what your religious beliefs are, just don't try to use them to legislate to all others, or expect to enjoy some pulpit of honor for having them, whatever they may be. Your writing proves that you are a fundalmentalist, whether you know it or not, and that makes you a danger to a free society, and considering those whom you have wrongly blamed for legal, legislative processes, without proof, btw, I'd say that you are also from the radical religous right. But, believe me, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, regardless. I really don't care what you believe, just don't try and impose it on others.</font color>

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="red">Cleanse the public square, LMAO, what public square? I don't have a public square, however, I'm quite sure that if I were to sit upon a bench, quietly praying, I wouldn't get lynched for it. Your problem is that you want to be on a soapbox, in the middle of the public square, and, well, now that just doesn't work for me, I might just want to be reading a book, and not wish to be bothered by you. Or perhaps, I might just be trying to teach my children a different faith, Buddhism, for example, or Hinduism, and not wish you to be making a specticle of yourself, standing on the saop box, confusing my kids, with your rhetoric. There lies the problem with your ideology. You, and others, apparently do not feel sufficiently righteous, unless you can garner public agreement. Sorry, you'll just have to become autonomous, it's part of growing up, you know. You don't get to dictate, so that you'll feel visible, and comfortable, that you are righteous, and correct. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>
<hr /></blockquote>

[ QUOTE ]
In case you haven't read anything I've written, I have eshewed deciding what values others may want... <font color="red">To the contrary, you condemn others, and you accuse and blame gays, and liberals of performing the legislative decisions which were performed by the Supreme court of the United States of America. </font color> all I have said is that everyone should decide for themselves. <font color="red">No, that's not what you said, nor is it the spirit in which you wrote. You are blaming and condemning others, who see things differently than you, plain and simple, and for a change in our laws which you blame on liberals, gays, and athiests. </font color> In case you haven't read anything I've written, I have eshewed deciding what values others may want...all I have said is that everyone should decide for themselves. </font color> <font color="red">to the contrary, you condemn others, including me, of whom you know nothing, and have even accused me of taking up the cause of the enemy, and approving of jamming scissors into babies' heads. </font color> Again, totally the opposite of how you characterized it. Where on earth are you folks getting this stuff? <hr /></blockquote> <font color="red">
Folks? I can't speak for the "Folks" but I am getting my take on you, from you.</font color>

[ QUOTE ]
Gayle, I appreciate your shorter comments cause the long ones are difficult to respond to. And I appreciate the fact that you almostt always avoid degenerating into name calling.


<hr /></blockquote>

And I appreciate that you don't zero in on something as trite as typos, and spelling errors, lol, I just don't think that our founders envisioned a country where political and government affairs would become the pulpit of the religous. As I read the letters of Thomas Jefferson, and others, my understanding is that religion, church and State, if you will, were to be separate, and that the separation was to be perfect, and complete, as Jefferson stated in one of his letters, otherwise, both would be at risk. Now we know that they fled religious persecution, and we know that their religious concepts, of right and wrong, did influence some legal issues, but I submit, that many of their beliefs laid the ground for slavery, exploitation and degradation of women, blacks, and gays.

As for abortion, I am not for late term abortion, and do think that such a decision should be made early, but I cannot understand for the life of me, why, if the religious right is so concerned about it, why the hell are they against the morning after pill. This idea that a thimblefull of cells, deserves the same legal name, and rights, as a full term baby, is totally absurd, as any microscope can prove. Also, I take exception to any situation which involves men, dictating to women, how they may deal with pregnancy, and as I have stated, when the first man has a baby, I may change my mind, but until then, sit down, and shut up, is my policy. Men think that having a baby is like a good bowel movement, and when it's done, it's over. While I can certainly understand how SOME men may be under that false illusion, since the remote, removed father was the norm for most of history, even into the fifties, however, one thing has not changed. Only a woman knows if she wishes to bring a fetus, that's FETUS, not BABY, into this world, and NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE has the right to make that decision for her. Hence, as far as I am concerned, men have no say in the matter, nor should they ever have. On that, I will never change my mind.

Also, if I may say so, complex issues require deep thought, and cannot be addressed properly, IMO, in sound bytes. Hence, my posts are not brief, but then I'm not trying to win a literary award.

Also, if someone sought to deny you your right to worship as you please, I would be among the first to defend that right. I respect that matters of religion, are private, and personal. I must say, I do not respect certain politicians for wearing their religion on their shoulders, nor does that disgusting policy, which I view as extremely dishonest and exploitative, add to their campaigns. I find it insulting, and unamerican. That's just my personal opinion.

Best Wishes...

Gayle in Md.

Bobbyrx
01-02-2008, 08:05 PM
You killed a duck? /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Gayle in MD
01-02-2008, 08:28 PM
Steve,
The discussion had advanced to demolishing public education entirely, and privatizing the entire educational system. Please try to keep up. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Also, you brought up the issue of the Post office, and Fed Ex, remember?

[ QUOTE ]
Gayle,
The discussion was about schools, and whether or not the government is best suited to handle our children's education or whether private schools can do a better job.

<font color="red">I think that school systems varry, in different areas. I also think that a public education should be provided, and that all of us should be happy to spend our tax dollars for such an enterprise. The system has problems which should be corrected. I think that could be accomplished, with the right leadership. Leadership, is the answer, IMO, to all of our problems. </font color>

How can you defend government schools, when you chose private schools for your own kids? <font color="red">I'm not defending them, just not giving up on them completely. If something isn't working, I say fix it, don't just do away with it entirely. </font color> Are government schools good enough for everyone else? <font color="red">Not my decision to make. </font color>

Please try and limit your answer to the three sentences above. Thank you.
Steve <hr /></blockquote> Gayle,

Gayle in MD
01-02-2008, 08:41 PM
It wasn't intentional.

S0Noma
01-02-2008, 08:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bobbyrx:</font><hr>
<font color="red"> I like this idea. If someone wants to be a plumber or electrician, why should he have to read Chaucer? May sound crazy but I think this idea would cut the crime rate. It seems that our prisons are filled with high school drop outs or high school grads who were 16-18 with no job skills or training, so when they needed money...robbery, drug selling etc </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Glad to hear it. Beyond learning to read and write, do basic math and having a modicum of knowledge about Civics what does the average non-college bound kid need?

Answer: Job skills

What do we do instead? We force them to go to school for four years attending classes that hold little or no interest for them - act surprised when they don't study or pass tests - keep finding excuses for passing them to higher grades in spite of the fact that they're wasting both theirs AND the teacher's time - graduate them and then dump them on society as non-skilled nearly unemployable labor.

It happens every year when graduation roles around. A new giant pile of undereducated, disinterested kids with no place to go - who must now find a way to feed, clothe and shelter themselves. What actually happens is that (if they're lucky and HAVE a family) their families usually pick up the slack - supplementing them by providing food and shelter or augmenting their minimum wage incomes (if they can even FIND a job) with loans. If they're unlucky and don't have a family to fall back on they struggle out into the world often lacking even basic job skills or an understanding of what is expected of them in the work place.

I agree, we could go a long way toward cleaning this mess up if we would just face the fact that these non-college bound kids exist AND that their needs aren't being met by the current system.

Trade/tech schools - could help immensely. Teach these kids in a straight forward manner what it's going to take to survive in the real world. Give them lessons in check balancing, budgeting - teach them how credit works - teach them skills that society values above being a greeter at Walmart. Give them some sense of value and satisfaction that they're doing something to enhance their future and not wasting their time studying bullshit courses that they will never use.

Along with this make high school something kids that want to attend will have to compete to attend. Take away compulsory attendance and replace it with qualifying tests and minimum grade point average requirements. Kick kids out who fail to measure up - send them to the tech/trade school option.

For the remainder of the kids who do meet the standards required to stay in high school? Give them the best teaching that money can afford. Don't skimp. We are competing with the entire civilized world now and we need the best prepared, best educated citizens we can produce in order to keep up.

pooltchr
01-03-2008, 05:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Steve,
The discussion had advanced to demolishing public education entirely, and privatizing the entire educational system. Please try to keep up. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

<font color="red"> Sorry, I'm just a old slow southern boy...it's hard to keep up with the superior members of the forum. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
</font color>

Also, you brought up the issue of the Post office, and Fed Ex, remember?
<font color="red"> Yes I did, to give an example of private enterprise that can work more effectively than the government...in response to your comments about all the corporate facists businesses. Last I heard, Haliburton wasn't in the education business. </font color>

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Gayle,
The discussion was about schools, and whether or not the government is best suited to handle our children's education or whether private schools can do a better job.

<font color="red">I think that school systems varry, in different areas. I also think that a public education should be provided, and that all of us should be happy to spend our tax dollars for such an enterprise.
<font color="blue"> I am not going to be "Happy" to spend tax dollars in an inefficient way for anything. The public school system is in total disarray, and a big reason is the government intervention in the systems. Public education should be a LOCAL function...not a Federal function. </font color>
The system has problems which should be corrected. <font color="blue"> Absolutely, and the best way to correct the problems is to give private enterprise the opportunity...the federal government has had several decades to try, and the results have been a decline in the quality of education. When so many students can graduate from high school with minimal reading and writing skills, I think it indicates serious problems. </font color> I think that could be accomplished, with the right leadership. Leadership, is the answer, IMO, to all of our problems. </font color>

How can you defend government schools, when you chose private schools for your own kids? <font color="red">I'm not defending them, just not giving up on them completely. <font color="blue"> But you did give up on them when you chose private schools for your own kids </font color> If something isn't working, I say fix it, don't just do away with it entirely. </font color> Are government schools good enough for everyone else? <font color="red">Not my decision to make. </font color>

Please try and limit your answer to the three sentences above. Thank you.
Steve <hr /></blockquote> Gayle,

<hr /></blockquote>

Steve

LWW
01-03-2008, 05:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote llotter:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>

What else could one read into that statement after the first paragraph?
"Fascist left, cleansing,anti-religion, etc" You blame all societies failures on the left....and try to make it a good Vs evil scenario....I'm not buying it
I wasn't joking...in dumping the extremist agendas of some...onto anybody not a CCR ...you come across as an extremist yourself.
<hr /></blockquote>
It was you that first labeled conservative Republicans as Nazis and that I wanted to cleanse our society of the dissidents. I merely pointed out that it was those on the other side that actually used the Nazi tactics and did, in fact, cleanse the public square of religous meaning. That seems to be to be perfectly fair to point out. It does seem that you feel entitled to call us conservatives Nazis but conservatives should be held to a higher standard. I sorta agree that we should be setting a higher standard but I like to cheat a little.

<hr /></blockquote>
You are wasting your time trying to get rational discussion from the jihadis bro.

They hate.

That's what they are.

When that fails, they attack.

When that fails they claim victim status.

When that fails they restart with a new lie.

Methinks you are starting to figure it out.

Witness the deal with hondo and his cross forum shiite fest.

Four times he has agreed to peace. None of them made it 24 hours.

His reason? He's a victim


LWW

hondo
01-03-2008, 06:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote llotter:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>

What else could one read into that statement after the first paragraph?
"Fascist left, cleansing,anti-religion, etc" You blame all societies failures on the left....and try to make it a good Vs evil scenario....I'm not buying it
I wasn't joking...in dumping the extremist agendas of some...onto anybody not a CCR ...you come across as an extremist yourself.
<hr /></blockquote>
It was you that first labeled conservative Republicans as Nazis and that I wanted to cleanse our society of the dissidents. I merely pointed out that it was those on the other side that actually used the Nazi tactics and did, in fact, cleanse the public square of religous meaning. That seems to be to be perfectly fair to point out. It does seem that you feel entitled to call us conservatives Nazis but conservatives should be held to a higher standard. I sorta agree that we should be setting a higher standard but I like to cheat a little.

<hr /></blockquote>

I personally do not believe that all conservative Republicans are nazis. My wife &amp; uncle are conservative REPubs &amp; they're not nazis.
Besides, many cons are shouting " anti-semite", "anti-semite" at anybody who disagrees with them over anything so they couldn't be nazis, right?

hondo
01-03-2008, 06:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote llotter:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>

What else could one read into that statement after the first paragraph?
"Fascist left, cleansing,anti-religion, etc" You blame all societies failures on the left....and try to make it a good Vs evil scenario....I'm not buying it
I wasn't joking...in dumping the extremist agendas of some...onto anybody not a CCR ...you come across as an extremist yourself.
<hr /></blockquote>
It was you that first labeled conservative Republicans as Nazis and that I wanted to cleanse our society of the dissidents. I merely pointed out that it was those on the other side that actually used the Nazi tactics and did, in fact, cleanse the public square of religous meaning. That seems to be to be perfectly fair to point out. It does seem that you feel entitled to call us conservatives Nazis but conservatives should be held to a higher standard. I sorta agree that we should be setting a higher standard but I like to cheat a little.

<hr /></blockquote>
You are wasting your time trying to get rational discussion from the jihadis bro.

They hate.

That's what they are.

When that fails, they attack.

When that fails they claim victim status.

When that fails they restart with a new lie.

Methinks you are starting to figure it out.

Witness the deal with hondo and his cross forum shiite fest.

Four times he has agreed to peace. None of them made it 24 hours.

His reason? He's a victim


LWW <hr /></blockquote>
You lie, TT. WWJP?

LWW
01-03-2008, 07:00 AM
Now, see, you lied again.

Yesterday you promised to post your little catch phrase "TILL THE DAY I DIED" and today you are again invoking the Almighty to protect you.

LWW

hondo
01-03-2008, 07:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> Now, see, you lied again.

Yesterday you promised to post your little catch phrase "TILL THE DAY I DIED" and today you are again invoking the Almighty to protect you.

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

Give peace a chance. This has to be tiresome for both of us. Read my new thread.
Will I continue? You bet.
Do I want to? Nope, too old for this nonsense and you are too.

llotter
01-03-2008, 07:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr>
I personally do not believe that all conservative Republicans are nazis. My wife &amp; uncle are conservative REPubs &amp; they're not nazis.
Besides, many cons are shouting " anti-semite", "anti-semite" at anybody who disagrees with them over anything so they couldn't be nazis, right? <hr /></blockquote>

You should take wolfdancer to task when he makes such outrages statements.

LWW
01-03-2008, 08:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Steve,
The discussion had advanced to demolishing public education entirely, and privatizing the entire educational system. Please try to keep up. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Gayle,

<hr /></blockquote>
Really? By who?

LWW

llotter
01-03-2008, 11:27 AM
Here we have, Gayle, in America, our public, taxpayer funded schools teaching and/or supporting left wing values that strike at the heart of the values of the majority of the citizens who are believers in some religion. Ideas such as abortion, same sex marriage, promiscuity, sex ed, condom distribution and such that, under the authority and imprimatur of the ‘State’, goes directly against the abstinence, family centric values that most all religions teach, values that have been the bedrock of our history. And these are only superficial examples of how kids are being ‘liberated’ from their parent’s beliefs and how the schools are being used to radically alter our heritage and our culture and putting us in long term path of destroying this ‘Great Experiment in Freedom’. Maybe it isn't even that long of a term.

I have been called ‘radical’ here but my views were the mainstream views not very long ago. The true radicals, IMO, are those advocating such rapid change that necessitates destroying religion as a basis of our personal moral conduct. The evidence of the problems being created by this change is everywhere, including this thread. But also, consider the breakup of the traditional family, crime rates, incarceration rates, greed rates, corruption rates and on and on the list goes. Consider that older adults can’t even watch today’s television with youngsters without being embarrassed at what passes for entertainment these days. Consider the whole area of political correctness which by definition means accepting as truth, with a wink and a nod, what most everyone knows to be false. Unfortunately, the younger generation does not realize there is a ‘wink and a nod’ and simply accepts what is false as true…because that is what he has been told.

On the subject of abortion, I don’t think you cannot divorce yourself from the known consequences of supporting it as a ‘right’. Your hands are awash in blood as though they were the hands forcing those forceps into the skull of that half born baby but take comfort, if you must, that you have lots of company that also don’t know any better. To say that you don’t support this or that form of abortion does not absolve you. In fact, there is no justification that will absolve anyone that supports abortion rights. Abortion is the perfect example of how people can be enticed to just toss aside those values that religion and its traditions teach in favor of something more convenient. Imagine, killing babies, excuse me, fetuses, is suddenly becomes routine… it’s almost as though we are living in a surreal world.

You might right ask, ‘Why is religion so important in establishing a moral system?’ I will leave that to another thread but it is indispensable, regardless whether you are a believer or an atheist. Dave Hume said, ‘Morality is not the conclusion of reasoned thought’.
Makes sense to me!

wolfdancer
01-03-2008, 11:32 AM
"This is the godless world (the Left) is building for us. Have you no shame????"

Gayle, you would be wise to steer clear from this poster.

LWW
01-03-2008, 11:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> "This is the godless world (the Left) is building for us. Have you no shame????"

Gayle, you would be wise to steer clear from this poster.
<hr /></blockquote>
Yes. Him speakem with straight tongue ... words caled troooooo-th.

Here some sand.

Go buryem own head and hope he go away.

LWW &lt;--Native American blood in veins. Me knowem moonbat when me see one.

llotter
01-03-2008, 12:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> "This is the godless world (the Left) is building for us. Have you no shame????"

Gayle, you would be wise to steer clear from this poster.
<hr /></blockquote>

Ya know, I always wait to hear Rush Limbaugh to not only give me the news but to tell me what to think about it. I see you also must have some groupies here waiting for your bits of wisdom and insights to help them deal.

llotter
01-03-2008, 12:48 PM
Good one... I'm beginning to catch on.

Gayle in MD
01-03-2008, 02:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I'm just a old slow southern boy...it's hard to keep up with the superior members of the forum. <font color="red">It was just a joke, Steve, hence, the wink icon. </font color>
[ QUOTE ]
Yes I did, to give an example of private enterprise that can work more effectively than the government...in response to your comments about all the corporate facists businesses. Last I heard, Haliburton wasn't in the education business. <font color="red">Lots of corporations are in the business of education, Steve, but I sure hope Halliburton isn't one of them. They've stolen enough money from Americans already. </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>
<hr /></blockquote>

[ QUOTE ]
am not going to be "Happy" to spend tax dollars in an inefficient way for anything. <font color="red">You must be furious about the waste and incompetence so prevalent in the bush administration, particularly the inefficient way he has managed the war, billions missing, no bid contracts, and such. </font color> The public school system is in total disarray, <font color="red">I think that's stretching things a bit. Some areas, where there is heavy involvment from parents, have schools which were doing quite well, and would be doing much better, if not for, as you said, Bush's Federal interference. </font color> and a big reason is the government intervention in the systems. Public education should be a LOCAL function...not a Federal function. <font color="red">I agree. </font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

[ QUOTE ]
Absolutely, and the best way to correct the problems is to give private enterprise the opportunity... <font color="red"> Steve, how would this work? You would expect the poor to come up with money so their kids could get an education? I think it would be just awful to think that our country did not provide a decent opportunity for an education, for all our children. Corporations are not the end all to everything, IMO. They are curropt, and inefficient, also. Again, it is a matter of leadership, and that is something for which we certainly have a great need.</font color> the federal government has had several decades to try, and the results have been a decline in the quality of education. When so many students can graduate from high school with minimal reading and writing skills, I think it indicates serious problems. <font color="red">the basis of the problems, IMO, is with parents. Take my daughter's location, for example, parental involvment is tremendous, along with money, and time being offered by the may stay at home mothers in her area. In spite of the huge drag on the educational system, due to Bush's NCLB program, they are managing to provide a pretty good education for the children. Of course, most of the parents add to what is being taught in school, and that makes a huge difference. I think those who constantly bash the teachers, are being terribly unfair. It isn't their fault these kids have no input from their parents. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="red">That was the beginning of the open track, non graded system in our county. It was a disaster, as I knew it would be. At that time, there were very few women who were staying home with their kids, and those of us who were there, were running ourselves in the ground, doing things at school. It was a stiuation, as it is now, that called for a different answer, and the public school system, just wasn't sufficient. I'm sure, it's not a great deal better, or worse, now, but as I said, parental involvment makes all the difference. I continued to pay my taxes, my dollars going into the public school system, just as all others, however, I believe in giving children every opportunity for an education, and think that a country which didn't provide a decent public education for its children, wouldn't be much of a country.

Also, unlike many others, I don't agree that some kids should be targetted for a future as a blue collar worker, and not get the same language arts material as all others during their school years. You education is the one thing that no one can ever take away from you, and there is no way to determine at what point any given child might begin to advance, and appreciate an education enough to begin to really apply themselves.

As you know, I don't mind paying taxes to live in the greatest country in the world, even if I'm paying for something which I do not get direct benefit, the asociety I live in is getting the benefit, and that improves my life, also. It's all in how one looks at things, I guess.

Gayle in Md. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

wolfdancer
01-03-2008, 03:18 PM
No, I just believe that your views are somewhat extremist.
You've already identified the groups that you blame for America's problems....and neatly packaged Gayle in those groups, with her stand on abortion....any further conversation with you on her part....would just lead to ???
Better safe then sorry....

wolfdancer
01-03-2008, 03:34 PM
"I personally do not believe that all conservative Republicans are nazis."
I never thought that they were...but the ones that try and promote hatred of others, by claiming they, and they alone, are the root cause of the Nation's problems, and that their own group is morally superior, etc....that's at least similar to the tactics of the National Socialists. It's definitely not American in origin..
"Nazi" has become a euphemism for any group that promotes themselves by denigrating others. (imo)

llotter
01-03-2008, 03:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> No, I just believe that your views are somewhat extremist.
You've already identified the groups that you blame for America's problems....and neatly packaged Gayle in those groups, with her stand on abortion....any further conversation with you on her part....would just lead to ???
Better safe then sorry.... <hr /></blockquote>

Do you always just kibitz from the sidelines to pick out the extremists to critisize or can you contribute something constructive to the subject of the thread?

hondo
01-03-2008, 03:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote llotter:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr>
I personally do not believe that all conservative Republicans are nazis. My wife &amp; uncle are conservative REPubs &amp; they're not nazis.
Besides, many cons are shouting " anti-semite", "anti-semite" at anybody who disagrees with them over anything so they couldn't be nazis, right? <hr /></blockquote>

You should take wolfdancer to task when he makes such outrages statements. <hr /></blockquote>

You did catch the irony in the second part of my statement, I hope. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

wolfdancer
01-03-2008, 03:43 PM
lww has used the Nazi label repeatedly in his posts....I don't call people fascist, but do point out some similarities.
Since your posts read to me, like a person who's convinced of his own moral superiority, re anyone not buying into your politics....I see no use in any further discussion with you.

wolfdancer
01-03-2008, 03:49 PM
my constructive contribution to this thread...was to inform Gayle, that ...unless she wanted to have another endless round of insulting posts directed at her; she should stop it in it's tracks.
The board doesn't need another flame war....and being above such pettiness myself....just trying to be a voice of reason...a peacemaker, here.

LWW
01-03-2008, 04:08 PM
Because the tactics commonly used here are so similar.

Mob rule.

Attack as a pack.

Ignore reason.

Forget fairness.

Run when resistance is met.

LWW

S0Noma
01-03-2008, 04:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> Because the tactics commonly used here are so similar.

Attack as a pack.
<font color="blue">Come over from another forum - bring a couple of your ultra-conservative pals with you with the express purpose of disrupting the forum. </font color>


Ignore reason.
<font color="blue">Translation: Use propaganda, generalizations and innuendo - call it 'reason'. When reproached, imply that your opponent is gay - resort to personal attack - dodge, duck and dance and claim the argument you've just lost wasn't what you meant in the first place. Fail to provide convincing supporting evidence. Ignore facts that contradict your proffered stereotypes and broad brushed generalizations. </font color>


Forget fairness.
<font color="blue">(See above) </font color>

Run when resistance is met.
<font color="blue">Lordy, Lordy, we've sure seen plenty of that. You must think that no one here can navigate to AZB and read your posts? Shame on you. 'Run when resistance is met' should be stamped on your forehead so that all can recognize your argumentation style for what it is. </font color>

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

LWW
01-03-2008, 04:56 PM
And I thought your other rant made you look stupid. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Moonbat want a cracker?

LWW

wolfdancer
01-03-2008, 05:57 PM
more adult conversation on your part?

I think Sonoma was right on with his comments....you came over here to start trouble, didn't go over as well as expected, and need to run back to AZB for some moral support.

LWW
01-03-2008, 06:00 PM
Want to go back and read the first posts you made to arsehat.

You fascist nazis attacked in force thinking I would cave.

Sorry, but you know I don't pull punches, but you know that is the truth.

Please, don't dishonor the small steps made today in an effort to propagate a lie that nobody will believe anyway.

LWW

pooltchr
01-03-2008, 06:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> <font color="red">You must be furious about the waste and incompetence so prevalent in the bush administration, </font color>
<font color="blue"> Yes, as I have stated on several occasions. The lack of fiscal responsibility with this administration has been very frustrating. </font color>
&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Absolutely, and the best way to correct the problems is to give private enterprise the opportunity... <font color="red"> Steve, how would this work? Gayle in Md. </font color> <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Vouchers. Take part of the $11,000 per student per year that we spend on government schools. As I said earlier, private schools have already proven they can do a better job for far less. Give each student a voucher valued at, oh, say, $7,000 per year to use at any private school their parents choose. Now EVERY student has the ability to attend private schools, not just the ones fortunate enough to have parents who can afford it. And the burdon to taxpayers is cut by $4,000 for every school age child in the country. Private school for everyone...and it saves all of us a pretty significant amount of money. What's not to like about that?

Steve </font color>

eg8r
01-03-2008, 07:29 PM
Yeah, that is what Cheney told the attorney he shot while hunting. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

hondo
01-04-2008, 06:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> Yeah, that is what Cheney told the attorney he shot while hunting. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

LOL! When he said, " duck', the attorney should have ducked rather than look for a duck! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Gayle in MD
01-04-2008, 07:04 AM
Steve,
I don't think that would work out well, but I'm not an economist. What I think would happen is that these private schools would eventually become a very wide range of dollar for dollar opportunity for our students, and things would eventually come down to only the rich being able to afford to buy a quality education for their children. Ok, one could say that that, is exactly what IS happening, now, to some degree, but why arrange for that unfortunate result, to grow into greater inequality?

I think that America is capable of providing a quality education for all of its children. IMO, the cause of decline in education is directly connected to economics. When two parents have to struggle to pay their bills, working more that one job a piece, it is unrealistic to expect that the results won't impact our society, in many ways.

Interestingly enough, the vast chasm between the rich, and the middle class, and poor, is, IMO, part of the reason for this phenomena.

I think that if you would just look at what percentage of our wealth, ends up in the hands of the middle class, vs the very wealthy, and make a real study of the tqax structure, that you will find alarming inequalities which point to conditions which create fertile ground for a fascist nation. The signs are all there, and it is impossible, for me, atleast, to address most of the pressing issues of our times, without including that most devastating cause. We can trace it to this war, to the illegal alien crises, to the poison in our food, and yes, even to the quality of education which poor, and middle class children are offered.

When 90% of the wealth of a nation ends up in the hands of the very few, most priviledged, at the very top, society suffers. This phenomena of greed and corruption infiltrates our government, and hence, the living standards of the nation.

IMO, corporate power and corruption is the cause of every single problem our country is facing. The idea that corporate power, and near completely unregulated markets, is the answer to our problems, is far, far from the reality which I am seeing.

I trace the birth of these notions back to the Reagan administration, a President who I really liked, as a man, but nevertheless, his loyalty to big business, as with many other of our recent public servants, blinded him to what was really best for our country, IMO, and while there is unfortunately some of this visable in every president, due to the fact that we do not have public financed elections, it does varry in its power and effect on various presidents, and congresses.

Why do we, for example, bail out automakers when they fail to improve their product enough to remain competitive with foreign markets, that offer us higher mileage, and better quality products? Why do we allow a company like General Motors, to kill and bury the electric car, in spite of the fact that it was an extremely viable product, which could have gone a long way to reduce our dependence on oil? Why do we allow our leaders to set up no bid contracts? Why have a health care system which foemnts illness, instead of a government which address and rewards healthy liveing standards by enforcing quility air, water and food? And, why does a president, remove solar panels, from the roof of the White House, at a time when our dependence of foreign oil, and its future devastating consequences, were obvious?

Now I know you will accuse me of partisanship, now, but as I often say, I love my country, and I want what is best for all of us. We all need to think about the seriousness of our energy circumstances, the overly powerful corporate lobby, our dangerous debt to China, and their potential, if not present, marriage with certain of our enemies, and the negative ways in which big business, and its powerful lobby, has contributed to all these problems, and I submit to you that Corporate greed, and corrupt political leaders, is destroying this country, and the myth of the fix all free market solution, with no government oversight, or control, is the main cause of all of our problems, even the quality of education that our children can get, the effeciency and costs of health care, the devaluation of the American dollar, and the war and chaos in the Middle East.

Sorry for yet another long post.

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
01-04-2008, 08:02 AM
[ QUOTE ]

Here we have, Gayle, in America, our public, taxpayer funded schools teaching and/or supporting left wing values that strike at the heart of the values of the majority of the citizens who are believers in some religion. <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue">False premise. </font color>

[ QUOTE ]
Ideas such as abortion, same sex marriage, promiscuity, sex ed, condom distribution and such that, under the authority and imprimatur of the ‘State’, goes directly against the abstinence, family centric values that most all religions teach, values that have been the bedrock of our history. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">You have a choice not to educate your children in private schools, but send them instead to a religious school, of your faith, and choice. The public school system serves all, not just the religious, who wish to deny that abstinence does not work. Our history shows us that religious leaders burned women at the stake, believed in slavery, practiced polygamy, organized religion provides no higher value than any other cult, and deserves no greater authority. </font color>

[ QUOTE ]
And these are only superficial examples of how kids are being ‘liberated’ from their parent’s beliefs and how the schools are being used to radically alter our heritage and our culture and putting us in long term path of destroying this ‘Great Experiment in Freedom’. Maybe it isn't even that long of a term.
<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">No one can "liberate" your children away from you, although if you were my parent, I would seek liberation. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif If you give your children love, attention, understanding, patience and guidence, and teach them to love and respect themselves, and embrace their talents and future opportunities, they will respect your judgement, and value their relationshipw with you. However, if people continue to allow politicians and the media to distract them from the true serious threats that we face as a nation, by using organized religion as a tool, turning people against one another, instead of moving toward tolerance, and embracing the great value of freedom of choice, privacy in personal matters, and liberal acceptance of one another, then this great experience of democracy may not survive. Teaching people to feel bad about themselves, and to judge others, without compassion, acceptance, and understanding, is the antithesis of leading them toward a healthy self-esteem, and the ability to be autonomous, and self reliant, regardless of what others are thinking, doing or saying. Expecting the world around one to cahnge, and alter itself, in order to privide you with comfort about your personal philosophy, is a sign of narcissism, a psychological disorder, "What is real for me, is real for all" The inability to distinguish between your own reality, and that of others, and the difference between the two. This is a condition often observed in cult members, who have had their autonomy damaged by group think tactics, and who have been exploited by others, for personal gain.

Above all else, Democracy guarantees us autonomy, self-determination, freedom of choice, and privacy. Sexual orientation, birth control, family planning, safe sex practices, abortion, the right to worship as one pleases, or not worship at all, all these issues are guaranteed in a freed, democratic society. Our differences, and our right to be different, should be celebrated by all, and preserved for the great opportunities which such freedoms offer in a free society.

Gayle in Md.</font color>

LWW
01-04-2008, 08:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>Above all else, Democracy guarantees us autonomy, self-determination, freedom of choice, and privacy. Sexual orientation, birth control, family planning, safe sex practices, abortion, the right to worship as one pleases, or not worship at all, all these issues are guaranteed in a freed, democratic society. Our differences, and our right to be different, should be celebrated by all, and preserved for the great opportunities which such freedoms offer in a free society.

Gayle in Md.</font color><hr /></blockquote>
Yet, in practice, you oppose pretty much the entire list ... except for the right to an abortion paid for by someone from whom the money was taken under threat of force of course.


Saying you are in favor of freedom is one thing. Saddam and Stalin both said that. Putting the statement into practice is quite another.

Won't you join us Gayle?

LWW

moblsv
01-04-2008, 06:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;

Here we have, Gayle, in America, our public, taxpayer funded schools teaching and/or supporting left wing values that strike at the heart of the values of the majority of the citizens who are believers in some religion. <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue">False premise. </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

Here is the reason I am so opposed to Vouchers. This education reform movement isn't about improving education, its about introducing 'Christian Nation' revisionist History, Creationism, and other crazy Religious Right Wing Mythology. I can't imagine how this movement of tax-payer money to Religious Schools could be considered Constitutional.

The public education system is the best mechanism we have for teaching Civics and History in a relatively unbiased manner.

eg8r
01-04-2008, 06:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Here is the reason I am so opposed to Vouchers. This education reform movement isn't about improving education, its about introducing 'Christian Nation' revisionist History, Creationism, and other crazy Religious Right Wing Mythology. I can't imagine how this movement of tax-payer money to Religious Schools could be considered Constitutional.
<hr /></blockquote> Are all private schools in Utah religious? They are not in Florida. We have plenty of private schools in Florida that have nothing to do with religion.

[ QUOTE ]
The public education system is the best mechanism we have for teaching Civics and History in a relatively unbiased manner. <hr /></blockquote> This is a sad statement if anyone believes it. The public education system is the problem we have been discussing. Private schooling is almost always better than anything the public schooling offers.

eg8r

moblsv
01-04-2008, 06:51 PM
This goes back to accountability. How do we know what they're teaching, how do we determine who is no religious, or partisan? What proof do you have that private schools are better? Studies of the voucher program in Milwaukee haven't shown that to be true. Many studies show that private schools often do worse when normalized to account for similar students. Fact is, private schools usually show better simply because they skim the better students and leave the rest to the public schools.

pooltchr
01-04-2008, 07:36 PM
Gayle,
I know you think corporate America is the big bad wolf, and free enterprise doesn't work as well as the government, but having spent the better part of my life in the corporate world, I have a different perspective.

One premise I have found in successful businesses is that they remain true to their core business. I worked for a very successful large electric utility. They were successful because they focused on operating power plants and providing electricity to their customers. Much of their hiring was handled by professional staffing companies because they understood their primary skill was electricity, not HR Recruitment. Many companies run their business, but opt to use a payroll company to handle payroll...not because they can't...but because the understand there are other companies that specialize in payroll. I could provide more examples, but the point is when a company tries to do everything, they end up becoming inefficient at everything. Our government is no different. Government has it's core function, making and enforcing laws, and protecting the people from foreigh enemies. I think you will agree, they haven't done a great job in this area. I believe the reason is that government has tried to become everything to everyone, and is no longer effective at much of anything. Yes, there does need to be some oversight to control some industries. The problem comes when they decide they can do a better job than the industries they are supposed to be monitoring. Government needs to stay out of the health care business, education, and just about any other industry you can name. Government run schools, as a rule, are producing a far lower quality of education than they did when we were in school. Hell, just read some of the posts on these forums. Students aren't even learning spelling, proper sentence structure, punctuation, etc. If they aren't taught how to read (a pretty basic function) write, or do basic math, then the time spent in school is a waste. Try this...go to any store with the typical 18 year old working the check out line. When your total comes to $3.77 and you give them $5.02, you blow their mind!
Vouchers will work, because it gives every child the same opportunity to attend whatever school they want, regardless of family income. Yes, the parents still have to be involved in the education process, but at least they aren't forced to attend a particular school (good or bad) just because of the street where there parents live.
Steve

llotter
01-04-2008, 08:14 PM
I was pretty sure you were way to independent minded to take the advice of your fellow lefty here and wasn't about to run and hide when you are challenged. I think you know that I am not a 'hater' but I do like debate and sometimes get pretty aggressive. This should be a forum of ideas, not personal tangles.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;

Here we have, Gayle, in America, our public, taxpayer funded schools teaching and/or supporting left wing values that strike at the heart of the values of the majority of the citizens who are believers in some religion. <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue">False premise. </font color> <font color="red"> How so? </font color>

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Ideas such as abortion, same sex marriage, promiscuity, sex ed, condom distribution and such that, under the authority and imprimatur of the ‘State’, goes directly against the abstinence, family centric values that most all religions teach, values that have been the bedrock of our history. <hr /></blockquote> <font color="red">You are making good points here and demonstrates that there are bad men and evil men and, more often, badly mistaken men. From a conservative perspective, it also demonstrates why it is important to limit power as much as possible so mistakes or evil actions cause as little harm as possible. We recognize that it is beyond the abilities of humans to creat a utopia and it is a further mistake to try. F. Hayek referred to is as a 'Fatal Conceit' leading to 'The Road to Serfdom' </font color>

<font color="blue">You have a choice not to educate your children in private schools, but send them instead to a religious school, of your faith, and choice. The public school system serves all, not just the religious, who wish to deny that abstinence does not work. Our history shows us that religious leaders burned women at the stake, believed in slavery, practiced polygamy, organized religion provides no higher value than any other cult, and deserves no greater authority. </font color> <font color="red"> </font color>

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
And these are only superficial examples of how kids are being ‘liberated’ from their parent’s beliefs and how the schools are being used to radically alter our heritage and our culture and putting us in long term path of destroying this ‘Great Experiment in Freedom’. Maybe it isn't even that long of a term.
<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">No one can "liberate" your children away from you, although if you were my parent, I would seek liberation. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif If you give your children love, attention, understanding, patience and guidence, and teach them to love and respect themselves, and embrace their talents and future opportunities, they will respect your judgement, and value their relationshipw with you. <font color="red">I think you actually agree that today kids need to be protected from our own cultural. When you were growning up, the culture supported the values of your family. Parents needed little concern as their kids watched 'Leave it to Beaver' or 'Lassie' but that certainly isn't the case today and kids watch hours of garbage everyday. The schools supported the parents values instead of undermining them. Oh, the good old days. </font color> However, if people continue to allow politicians and the media to distract them from the true serious threats that we face as a nation, by using organized religion as a tool, turning people against one another, instead of moving toward tolerance, and embracing the great value of freedom of choice, privacy in personal matters, and liberal acceptance of one another, then this great experience of democracy may not survive. Teaching people to feel bad about themselves, and to judge others, without compassion, acceptance, and understanding, is the antithesis of leading them toward a healthy self-esteem, and the ability to be autonomous, and self reliant, regardless of what others are thinking, doing or saying. Expecting the world around one to cahnge, and alter itself, in order to privide you with comfort about your personal philosophy, is a sign of narcissism, a psychological disorder, "What is real for me, is real for all" The inability to distinguish between your own reality, and that of others, and the difference between the two. This is a condition often observed in cult members, who have had their autonomy damaged by group think tactics, and who have been exploited by others, for personal gain. <font color="red"> This is a nice 'stream of conscious' thinking, but the important thing are the policies needed to maximize individual freedom while maintaining a civil society. I submit the pre-sixties culture was better by just about any measure though it had the seeds of what came after. </font color>

Above all else, Democracy guarantees us autonomy, self-determination, freedom of choice, and privacy. <font color="red"> A democracy does not guarantee anything and is subject to tyranny of the majority of citizens or, more likely the legislatures, or those men in long black robes.</font color> Sexual orientation, birth control, family planning, safe sex practices, abortion, the right to worship as one pleases, or not worship at all, all these issues are guaranteed in a freed, democratic society. Our differences, and our right to be different, should be celebrated by all, and preserved for the great opportunities which such freedoms offer in a free society.
<font color="red">Buying into this multi-cultural jibberish is really surrendering to those who actually believe something. The sooner the Left begins to recognize the superiority of American Judeo-Christian culture, the sooner we can begin pride and confidence as a nation and start cleaning our tarnished reputation.</font color>
Gayle in Md.</font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

llotter
01-04-2008, 08:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote moblsv:</font><hr> Here is the reason I am so opposed to Vouchers. This education reform movement isn't about improving education, its about introducing 'Christian Nation' revisionist History, Creationism, and other crazy Religious Right Wing Mythology. I can't imagine how this movement of tax-payer money to Religious Schools could be considered Constitutional.

The public education system is the best mechanism we have for teaching Civics and History in a relatively unbiased manner. <hr /></blockquote>

I was under the impression the Catholic schools invariably graduated students with better academic education than the public schools.

llotter
01-04-2008, 08:34 PM
Bravo poolchr...I would only add that even if the government could figure out how to be more efficient, it shouldn't in a free society. Of course, it is an impossibility they could ever become nearly as efficient but they could waste a lot of the peoples property in the process of trying.

moblsv
01-04-2008, 09:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote llotter:</font><hr>
I was under the impression the Catholic schools invariably graduated students with better academic education than the public schools. <hr /></blockquote>

That's debatable and irrelevant to my objections to vouchers. I think its great for parents to care enough to pay to send their kids to a catholic school which they believe has high standards. My objections is to public money going to private institutions without strict oversight of standards and motives.

llotter
01-04-2008, 10:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote moblsv:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote llotter:</font><hr>
I was under the impression the Catholic schools invariably graduated students with better academic education than the public schools. <hr /></blockquote>


That's debatable and irrelevant to my objections to vouchers. I think its great for parents to care enough to pay to send their kids to a catholic school which they believe has high standards. My objections is to public money going to private institutions without strict oversight of standards and motives. <hr /></blockquote>

I am not a big voucher fan either. I would prefer that parents paid for the education of their own kids but plan B is the traditional local public school but under the total control of the locally elected school boards. I think the parents are the most interested in their kids future so they should be the ones in control.

eg8r
01-04-2008, 11:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
This goes back to accountability. <hr /></blockquote> Accountability of whom? Parents? Students? Government?

[ QUOTE ]
How do we know what they're teaching, how do we determine who is no religious, or partisan? <hr /></blockquote> Any parent with a little common sense can answer these questions. Since you asked them, how about you ask the same questions of a government school? Government schooling is going down the tubes right now but if they answer your questions correctly are you OK with the direction the students are headed?

[ QUOTE ]
What proof do you have that private schools are better? <hr /></blockquote> I have real life experience. You also have parents on this board that send/sent their children to private schools because they were better.

[ QUOTE ]
Many studies show that private schools often do worse when normalized to account for similar students. <hr /></blockquote> Many studies? What does the study mean by "similar students". What is worse? I went to a private school all the way through middle school. It was a small school graduating about 15 students to the local high schools. I am still close with most but all 15 of us finished in the top 3% of our graduating classes (the 15 of us split to 4 different high schools one being in Georgia). I know this is skewed a bit but that is not bad for the little private school with no government funding.

[ QUOTE ]
Fact is, private schools usually show better simply because they skim the better students and leave the rest to the public schools. <hr /></blockquote> The fact is that private schools are performance based and government schools are definitely not. Rich kids are no smarter than poor kids the difference is in the parents and the students desire to excel. You may not like this quote but it fits, "Rich people continue to do the things that made them rich and poor people continue to do the things that made them poor."

eg8r

Gayle in MD
01-05-2008, 08:32 AM
There were plenty of kids when I was growing up with no mothers at home, divorced parents, alcoholic parents, poor parents, and uninvolved parents. None of what you see today is new. What is new is that many communities are now mostly made up of home owners, or renters, who don't know one another, and live lives of staying to themselves. In our little community everyone knew one another, and kids didn't get away with anything. The whole town knew who the bad kids were, and exactly what they were all about. One felt an obligation to uphold the family name, and do what was right, that is, if their parents had made them an important part of the "WE" which was the family.

There were kids having sex, coming to school drunk, stealing, breaking laws, and just as is true today, the parents who had remained involved with, and in touch with their children, and in touch with reality, had the best kids. Unfortunately, parents who only yearn for things to stay the way they used to be, instead of altering their methods of how they raise their kids, according to the current world in which their kids will have to live, are always the last to find out what their kids are really doing. Religious training accomplished nothing, absolutely nothing, which created any guarantee of better parenting results. I knew just as many Catholic girls and boys whose parents were devout, and took their kids to church every sunday, who were doing exactly what other kids were doing, experimenting with sex, alcohol, drugs, (in somewhat smaller percentages in those days) and all other mischief. That's the nature of growing up, and although you'd like to believe that religious doctrines will impact adolecent experimentation, you are simply being naive' and unrealistic. Kids will be kids, regardless of how much you try to scare them, or degrade them, with all the sinner bs, or worry and threaten them, with all the fires of hell, and the biggest difference between your kids, and the kids of parents who have a handle of reality, is that your kids won't tell you a damn thing, and you will be completely in the dark about who they are, and what they're doing. You can put your head in the sand and pray till the cows come home, but it's not going to change a damned thing. There is nothing more important in raising children than being hip to the world they're really living in, and building trust with them, enough trust that they don't have to pretend to be something they're not, and enough trust that they know that you don't expect perfection, only that they come to you and trust you enough to be who they are, and especially when they screw up. And believe me, the more you try to set yourself up as the pious, religious, all knowing, God fearing, perfect person, in their eyes, the more you will push them away.

I hate to burst your bubble, but....

[ QUOTE ]
The sooner the Left begins to recognize the superiority of American Judeo-Christian culture, the sooner we can begin pride and confidence as a nation and start cleaning our tarnished reputation.
<hr /></blockquote>

our tarnished reputation, as you put it, has been the result of a so called Christian bible thumping colossal liar who decieved Americans in the worst ways, about the worst things a president can lie about. Our government has been infiltrated by the largest number of your so called superior Judeo-Christian, and we've witnessed more lying and law breaking in the last seven years, more killing and stealing, and more I don't recalls, and I can't remember, since Ronald Reagan, the last good "Actor" and the last corporate Representative for the filthy rich. It had nothing to do with what you call, "the left" and although this may shock you, you are not superior to anyone else, and in fact, you need to learn your place. All people have the same rights as you have, regardless of who they are, what they do, or how they think. You are not superior to anyone, you are, however, a narcissist, and should consider some professional counseling, particularly if you're raising kids.

Gayle in Md.



What is new is that the wages of the middle class have not kept up, jobs are being outsourced, cheap labor resulting from illegal aliens, have driven down wages, corporations are now regularly dumping their tenured employees, or selling out, just in time to get out of retirement obligations to them. And the right, supports all this, by electing presidents, like Reagan, and Bush, who foment this idiotic notion that if you take away all the regulations which protect American workers from exploitation, and the laws that require corporations to operate under environmentally sound and safe regulations, and allow the wealthy to buy up the media, and the politicians, the free market will take care of everything.

This is not reality.

Secondly, you assume that there are no Christians on the left. Another absurd notion.

Gayle in MD
01-05-2008, 08:40 AM
My dear and brilliant friend,

Your posts give me hope for the future of this nation. The religious right wing nuts, are the threat to our democracy. Fundalmentalism /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif notice the inclusion of the word, "mental" in there. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Love,
Gayle...too bad Americans don't read anymore.

Gayle in MD
01-05-2008, 09:00 AM
There is a difference between free enterprise, and an unregulated corporate cabal, intent on nothing but their bottom line, regardless of how their actions affect America, and a powerful corporate lobby, which owns our representatives, and exploits the American worker to the detriment of society. Owns the media, and uses it to feed propaganda to the citizenry, and kills off any politican that tries to expose the damage and fascism, either through slander, or by paying for the lies they want printed, or aired.

Vouchers do not provide every student with that opportunity, Steve. Other matters would enter into the equasion, such as where they live, and how they will get to various schools, and then back home.

Public education is a necessity. We should be realistic about it, and realize that it isn't the teachers, and it isn't the kids, it's the parents, and the interference of religious nuts, and Federally enforced programs, like NCLB, which tie the hands of our teachers to teach their students in effective ways, instead of trainging them to pass federally mandated tests.

We have good teachers, although we don't pay them enough to keep them. What we need is better parents, and greater social commitment. People who gripe all the time about paying taxes so that their kids and grand kids can get a quality education don't help, either. I paid plenty of taxes in my time, AND tuition, but what tax dollars went toward public education made my country better, if they were used for the children of others. That was how I felt about it.

If you don't think that corporate power is playing a role in our problems, and gouging us through no bid contracts, and owning our news sources, and outsourcing our jobs, and supporting illegal alien occupation, well, I don't know how you could not be aware of these issues, just like I don't understand how anyone who reads statistics, thinks that Bush's policies, and Reagans, weren't arranged in a way that favors the rich. They don't pay taxes, friend.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Gayle in Md.

LWW
01-05-2008, 09:00 AM
Makes you yearn for the good old days of Jimmy Carter doesn't it.

Who wouldn't be proud of a 10.5% UE rate?

A 21.5% prime?

A military without sufficient bullets to fight beyond 7 days (YES I WAS a reservist would paid for my own ammo for live fire practice.)?

An embassy held hostage?

The Islamic Republic of Iran founded?

The POTUS sitting in the White House with the t-stat at 62 degrees explaining how America's best days were behind us and the possibility that the Soviets might have lied to us?

And this all time classic of the leader of the free world battling a bunny rabbit with a canoe paddle:
http://www.newsoftheodd.com/images/stories/rabbit.jpg
"hissing menacingly, its teeth flashing and nostrils flared." (http://www.newsoftheodd.com/content/view/220/29)

Who wouldn't want to return to those golden years of leftist folly?

LWW

LWW
01-05-2008, 09:01 AM
BTW, wasn't Carter the one who started the dept of Ed?

LWW

pooltchr
01-05-2008, 05:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> the rich. They don't pay taxes, friend.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

Knowing that the greatest percentage of tax revenue comes from the wealthiest of our population, while low income citizens pay little if any tax, I'm trying to figure out how a well read individual such as yourself could make such an absurd comment. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

The rich pay nearly all the taxes!!!

Steve

LWW
01-05-2008, 06:01 PM
It's the concept of "FALSE BUT ACCURATE" at work.

Under that line of thinking "TRUTH" becomes a prop which can be tainted, repainted, padded, shmadded, trimmed, slimmed, shimmed, welded, melded, and molded into whatever is currently convenient.

LWW

hondo
01-05-2008, 09:50 PM
State schools are performance-based in WV.
The schools can lose funding, be closed down;
kids are allowed to transfer to other schools
showing higher performance.
Virtually all teaching now is geered to kids performing well on national testing.
I assumed most states were like WV.
You mean we're that far ahead of other states? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

bamadog
01-06-2008, 01:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> State schools are performance-based in WV.
The schools can lose funding, be closed down;
kids are allowed to transfer to other schools
showing higher performance.
Virtually all teaching now is geered to kids performing well on national testing.
I assumed most states were like WV.
You mean we're that far ahead of other states? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

All of these are requirements of NCLB.

I thought you were against that program?

Now you are praising it?

pooltchr
01-06-2008, 05:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> State schools are performance-based in WV.
The schools can lose funding, be closed down;
kids are allowed to transfer to other schools
showing higher performance.
Virtually all teaching now is geered to kids performing well on national testing.
I assumed most states were like WV.
You mean we're that far ahead of other states? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Exactly the problem! Schools don't get the money if the students don't do well on the test. Teachers and administrators lose their jobs if kids don't do well on the test. So where is the focus? TEACHING THE TEST!!!

My step son has brought home papers with multiple spelling errors, poor sentence structure, and incorrect punctuation. The papers get very high marks because the teacher didn't grade on those things, only on the content.
If a child makes mistakes and nobody corrects them, they will continue to make the same mistakes. How can they be expected to learn like that? He scored very well on the EOG tests...but only because the school taught him how to pass the test.

I have a hard time teaching a student cue ball control, if their fundamentals of grip, bridge, stance, and stroke are faulty. The same is true in everything. Without a solid foundation, nothing you build will hold up.

Ask any 6th grader what 7 times 8 is, and if he doesn't have a calculator in his hands, he probably doesn't know. They don't teach times tables any more. But ask him what his high score on some video game is, and he can tell you in a heartbeat!
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Closing down one school because the students don't perform well on the tests, and allowing the student to transfer to another school doesn't do much good. The teachers and administrators just end up at a different school as well, the child still can't read at grade level, and now the teacher has to get him up to speed with the rest of the class. Meanwhile, the cost of busing kids all over the county builds. We have 7 different busses come through our neighborhood every day. With the choice of elementary, middle, or high school, that number, to my way of thinking, doesn't need to be more than 3. And the schools still aren't getting any better.

Steve

hondo
01-06-2008, 07:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bamadog:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> State schools are performance-based in WV.
The schools can lose funding, be closed down;
kids are allowed to transfer to other schools
showing higher performance.
Virtually all teaching now is geered to kids performing well on national testing.
I assumed most states were like WV.
You mean we're that far ahead of other states? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

All of these are requirements of NCLB.

I thought you were against that program?

Now you are praising it? <hr /></blockquote>

I was simply answering EG's statement:


The fact is that private schools are performance based and government schools are definitely not.
..........................................


As a matter of fact, I don't agree with being forced to perform to so-called experts' requirements but that is the reality these days.

hondo
01-06-2008, 07:07 AM
I agree, Steve. I was simply pointing out to Eg that it has becme performance- based. He said it was not.
I wasn't agreeing with what's being done.

Gayle in MD
01-06-2008, 08:49 PM
I said the middle class, not the poor. The rich do not pay their fair share of taxes. You are naive' if you think they do.

"only the little people pay taxes."

Leona Helmsley

Here's a book recommendation for you...

"Perfectly Legal"

If you read it, you'll know why I'm not the one who is off the mark.

bamadog
01-06-2008, 10:11 PM
Gayle, once again you show your total ignorance of who actually pays Federal Income Taxes. So let me inform you.

The top 1% of wage earners pay 35% of the total federal income taxes!
The top 5% of wage earners pay 55% of the total federal income taxes!
The top 10% of wage earners pay 66% of the total federal income taxes!

Here's the reality Gayle, the top 1% are paying 10 times the total Federal income taxes that the bottom 50% are paying! Let that sink in a moment.

Now, still think the rich aren't paying their fair share?

Don't you feel foolish?

LWW
01-07-2008, 05:13 AM
It's not ignorance Dawg.

It's just a matter of some people who feel they must resort to the lie in order to "WIN" rather than discuss the truth in a fact based rational manner.

Ignorance is a sin of innocence brought on by lack of knowledge.

Gayle's discussion style is one planned out with malice and forethought.

LWW

llotter
01-07-2008, 08:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>
"only the little people pay taxes."

Leona Helmsley

Here's a book recommendation for you...

"Perfectly Legal"

If you read it, you'll know why I'm not the one who is off the mark. <hr /></blockquote>

The year my hero and legitimate martyr, Leona Helmsley, was indicted and sent to prison for taking some questionable deductions, she actually paid more the $67 million in taxes. I hardly blame her from being contemptuous of the small minded politicians and bureaucrats with their snout in to public trough who want nothing more than to display for the citizens just where the power resides in our society. She paid a big price just as many of those freedom loving Chinese did from Tiananmen Square. This is the methods of out-of-control, power hungry government who serve their own ends rather than those of the general public. Ditto Martha Stewart. Be afraid, be very afraid.

Fran Crimi
01-07-2008, 09:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote llotter:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>
"only the little people pay taxes."

Leona Helmsley

Here's a book recommendation for you...

"Perfectly Legal"

If you read it, you'll know why I'm not the one who is off the mark. <hr /></blockquote>

The year my hero and legitimate martyr, Leona Helmsley, was indicted and sent to prison for taking some questionable deductions, she actually paid more the $67 million in taxes. I hardly blame her from being contemptuous of the small minded politicians and bureaucrats with their snout in to public trough who want nothing more than to display for the citizens just where the power resides in our society. She paid a big price just as many of those freedom loving Chinese did from Tiananmen Square. This is the methods of out-of-control, power hungry government who serve their own ends rather than those of the general public. Ditto Martha Stewart. Be afraid, be very afraid. <hr /></blockquote>

I worked on the Leona Helmsley case as an invetigative accountant. I saw all the documents that were in question. In my nonexpert opinion, if that case were to go to court today, both her company's CEO and CPA firm would have been held responsible. They were the ones who were supposed to be the experts in Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP), not Helmsley.

If it were up to her, she'd want it so that everything was a business deduction. That's what every business owner wants. It was the responsibility of the CEO and the accounting firm to make sure that didn't happen and that the laws were followed.

It was easy to make her the fall guy because she made the mistake of writing notes on some invoices. That was what incriminated her---that and the blatant negligence of her staff and accounting firm for being so afraid of the possibility of being fired or losing the Helmsley account.

Fran

llotter
01-07-2008, 10:42 AM
I think you are being disingenuous when you say the problems were the same in your childhood as they are today except possibly there may be a bit more of it now.

Time magazine, back in 1988, reported the results of a survey identifying the major problems in our schools. In the 1940s, the biggest problems were listed as; Talking, Chewing Gum, Making Noise, Running in Halls, Getting out of place in line, Improper Clothing, Littering. In the 1980s the biggest problems listed were: Drug Abuse, Alcohol Abuse, Pregnancy, Suicide, Rape, Robbery Assault, Burglary, Arson, Bombings. Some schools would now have to add mass murders. Even though I was in public school mostly in the 50s, I think it was very similar to the earlier period.

As someone once said, ‘If God is dead, anything is permissible’. It isn’t good enough to simply say that ‘kids will be kids’, to rationalize bad behavior. Today, there is a reluctance to even identify bad behavior. There is nothing wrong with drinking too much, just drinking and driving, so parents have ‘key parties’ where kids are permitted to drink but can’t drive. Or, kids will always have sex so we should just be sure that it is ‘save sex’ and provide condoms. Hell, we taxpayers have even provided financial help for young girls who get pregnant, including paying for housing if they have trouble with their parents. Drug addiction has, in some instances, is worn as a badge of honor as it were evidence of living a full life.

I think, Gayle, that you are reading me wrong when you call me a narcissist or that I think of myself as superior to anyone else. What I think is that some ideas are superior and I want to support those that I think are the correct. I believe that maximizing individual freedom is innately correct and the proper starting point in any political discussion here in America if not everywhere else.

To me, limiting the role of government is essential to preserving freedom and I don’t know how to compromise with those who want to continually increase it. The Left (Marxist/socialist/communist and its many offspring) are not only mistaken but absolutely incompatible with our Constitution and the precepts of freedom, so I try to formulate my argument to illustrate the problems rather than pontificate, even though it apparently can be read that way.

llotter
01-07-2008, 10:55 AM
In addition, Fran, it was easy to make her the fall guy because she what PC enough in her attitude and easy to demonize in the public eye.

hondo
01-07-2008, 12:11 PM
Your heroes:
George W. Bush
Leona Helmsley
Joe McCarthy
Dick Cheney
A pompous aristocrat, 2 war mongers and a hate monger.
Hmmm. They just don't make heroes like they used to.
Be afraid, be very afraid, indeed!

Gayle in MD
01-07-2008, 12:53 PM
These poor, poor wealthy billionairs, they only own ninety percent of the wealth in this country. Some people think they are paying their fair share, LMAO...and poor Leona, we all know what a sweetheart she was, wouldn['t think of cheating on her taxes, and left her billions to the dog, to keep her own kids from getting any of it.

Good grief! Sheep are dumb, and they stink! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Yes, be very afraid....? No, be courageous. Our country need those who can think.

Gayle in Md.

bamadog
01-07-2008, 01:19 PM
That's right Gayle, just ignore the figures from the dept. of the treasury.
You have your own delusional hater agenda to promote.
Wouldn't want the facts to get in the way of your mission.

Any proof that the billionaires in this country own 90% of the wealth?
I didn't think so.
Just more B.S. from the hater websites you frequent.

bamadog
01-07-2008, 01:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> Your heroes:
George W. Bush
Leona Helmsley
Joe McCarthy
Dick Cheney
A pompous aristocrat, 2 war mongers and a hate monger.
Hmmm. They just don't make heroes like they used to.
Be afraid, be very afraid, indeed! <hr /></blockquote>

One out of four is about your average. Dance puppet.

LWW
01-07-2008, 01:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> These poor, poor wealthy billionairs, they only own ninety percent of the wealth in this country.

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>
And we all know that this is just one is a long list of claims that you can't back up.

You are becoming less and less relevant with each passing post.

Join us and bask in the light of peace and truth.

LWW

heater451
01-07-2008, 02:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote llotter:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>
"only the little people pay taxes."

Leona Helmsley

Here's a book recommendation for you...

"Perfectly Legal"

If you read it, you'll know why I'm not the one who is off the mark. <hr /></blockquote>

The year my hero and legitimate martyr, Leona Helmsley, was indicted and sent to prison for taking some questionable deductions, she actually paid more the $67 million in taxes. I hardly blame her from being contemptuous of the small minded politicians and bureaucrats with their snout in to public trough who want nothing more than to display for the citizens just where the power resides in our society. She paid a big price just as many of those freedom loving Chinese did from Tiananmen Square. This is the methods of out-of-control, power hungry government who serve their own ends rather than those of the general public. Ditto Martha Stewart. Be afraid, be very afraid. <hr /></blockquote>

I worked on the Leona Helmsley case as an invetigative accountant. I saw all the documents that were in question. In my nonexpert opinion, if that case were to go to court today, both her company's CEO and CPA firm would have been held responsible. They were the ones who were supposed to be the experts in Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP), not Helmsley.

If it were up to her, she'd want it so that everything was a business deduction. That's what every business owner wants. It was the responsibility of the CEO and the accounting firm to make sure that didn't happen and that the laws were followed.

It was easy to make her the fall guy because she made the mistake of writing notes on some invoices. That was what incriminated her---that and the blatant negligence of her staff and accounting firm for being so afraid of the possibility of being fired or losing the Helmsley account.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>I can't recall exactly whom it was, but I have spoken with a friend about the Hemlsley case, and he had opportunity to see some of the documents. It was his opinion, that the accountant should have been jailed.

As for the often quoted numbers that "the top 1%" pay, I would really like to see a breakdown--including actual income numbers, and tax write-offs. . . .



=============================

llotter
01-07-2008, 03:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> Your heroes:
George W. Bush
Leona Helmsley
Joe McCarthy
Dick Cheney
A pompous aristocrat, 2 war mongers and a hate monger.
Hmmm. They just don't make heroes like they used to.
Be afraid, be very afraid, indeed! <hr /></blockquote>

First, I don't remember saying anything about Cheney and what I've said about Bush has been overwhelmingly negative and would never vote for him. As for Leona, I really think pomposity is no reason to send anybody to jail or even to be demonized. I know in this era of PC, the thought police have tremendous powers but you should recognize it for what it is. The IRS doesn't release estimates of just how many cheat on their taxes but I think it is about as American as apple pie. Virtually everybody know that 2 out of 3 dollars sent to the feds is wasted and counter-productive.

Senator Joe, along with Nixon, have become favorite whipping boys of the Left but I think it's totally unjustified. These fellows are victims of those who want to build a mountain out of a mole hill for pure political gain. The same can be said of Bush.

It is a vast left wing conspiracy to demonize mostly through false rumors and then pile on in mass as though somethimg is threatening our very existence. Many people fall for this routine hook, line and sinker and that so many can be so gullible is nearly unbelievable if I didn't see it with my own eyes.

You shouldn't follow ascribe to me ideas that I haven't supported but I appreciate you comments, nevertheless.

LWW
01-07-2008, 04:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote llotter:</font><hr> First, I don't remember saying anything about Cheney and what I've said about Bush has been overwhelmingly negative and would never vote for him.<hr /></blockquote>
And that proves you to be a heretic.

Maybe you disagree with Bush 51%. Or 60%. Or 75%. Or 99%. You are still a heretic. It must be 100% and in combination with a total hatred of Bush and a belief that he listens in on your calls to you aunt Jenny when he isn't hiding under your bed taking notes on your sexual activity.

Only then will you no longer be what Gayle refers to as "sheep".

LWW

llotter
01-07-2008, 05:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> And that proves you to be a heretic.

Maybe you disagree with Bush 51%. Or 60%. Or 75%. Or 99%. You are still a heretic. It must be 100% and in combination with a total hatred of Bush and a belief that he listens in on your calls to you aunt Jenny when he isn't hiding under your bed taking notes on your sexual activity.

Only then will you no longer be what Gayle refers to as "sheep".

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

I am overwhelmed by the cogency of your insightful comments.

bamadog
01-07-2008, 05:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr>



<hr /></blockquote>

As for the often quoted numbers that "the top 1%" pay, I would really like to see a breakdown--including actual income numbers, and tax write-offs. . . .



============================= <hr /></blockquote>

Just take a look at the IRS/Treasury dept. figures.

BTW, If you can find any of those magical deductions that allow the rich not to pay taxes, (that you libs are always talking about) let me know, my accountant has never been able to conjure them up for me.

Qtec
01-07-2008, 07:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It is a vast left wing conspiracy to demonize mostly through false rumors and then pile on in mass as though somethimg is threatening our very existence <hr /></blockquote>

Well first of all I think you mean en masse. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Secondly was it not the GW Admin that piled on the imaginary threat from Iraq saying it threatened the USA's very existance?
That was a lie, was it not?
When Condi and GW mentioned 'the mushroom cloud', was that not a brazen deception?
Recently GW exaggerated the threat from Iran, KNOWING that Iran stopped all nuclear weapons activity in 2003?

If Iraq is a real war, why does GW tolerate the Haliburtons, the BlackWaters etc all making a killing- in financial terms- by ripping off the Treasury ie the taxpayer?
Some would call that war profiteering- punishable by death by firing squad!!!!
How many times has Haliburton been caught pumping the price up. $ 100 laundry? Remember that?........... and still they have been awarded more contracts??

Please, if you want to slam the opposition, its allowed but don't give the Govt, the decision makers ie those responsible for the present mess , a free ride.
The first responsibility of any citizen in a Democratic country is to criticize their Govt when its deserved.
In a Democratic country politicians are SERVANTS of the people, not rulers. When the people ask a question it should be answered.
Geez, have you all forgotten that GW was AGAINST the 9/11 Commission? A Com designed to correct the mistkes and make America safer?
That GW REFUSED to testify under oath?
That he didn't want Condi to testify?

Why wouldn't he want Condi to testify? Surely it couldn't be to hide the fact that a memo entitiled "Bin Laden determined to attack the US" was considered by this Admin to be a historical document!
Despite the numerous warnings , the Admin did nothing other than to protect themselves.

Fact. Ashcroft flying high (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/26/national/main303601.shtml)







[ QUOTE ]
(CBS) Fishing rod in hand, Attorney General John Ashcroft left on a weekend trip to Missouri Thursday afternoon aboard a chartered government jet, reports CBS News Correspondent Jim Stewart.

In response to inquiries from CBS News over why Ashcroft was traveling exclusively by leased jet aircraft instead of commercial airlines, the Justice Department cited what it called a "threat assessment" by the FBI, and said Ashcroft has been advised to travel only by private jet for the remainder of his term.
<hr /></blockquote>

The US political system is all based on cash. If you have enough money and influence, a small group of super-rich people could buy the Govt and a Pres. Thats why you have to control the super rich and not let them control the country.


...BTW, if I was making $100 mil per year I would happily pay %50 in tax over that amount and be thankful.
The problem with individuals gaining too much wealth is that they can interfere with the democratic system.

Its a fact that most people the majority want free health care. They are in the majority but it doesn't happen. Why not.

Q ............a zillion e-mails missing........... The DoJ scandal- the politicizing of another branch of Govt to attack the opposition and protect crooked Republicans. The list is friggin endless. Torture. Alu Tubes, Niger, Plame, etc etc to infinity. Do a google on Jack Abramoff, DeLay etc (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4838792.stm)

bamadog
01-07-2008, 07:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> <hr /></blockquote>





Recently GW exaggerated the threat from Iran, KNOWING that Iran stopped all nuclear weapons activity in 2003?






<hr /></blockquote>

Why did Iran put their nuclear weapons program on hold?
Why did Libya abandon their nuclear weapons program?

Do you think it's OK for Iran to be killing our soldiers in Iraq?

llotter
01-07-2008, 11:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
It is a vast left wing conspiracy to demonize mostly through false rumors and then pile on in mass as though somethimg is threatening our very existence <hr /></blockquote>

Well first of all I think you mean en masse. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif <font color="blue"> you caught me red faced. </font color>

Secondly was it not the GW Admin that piled on the imaginary threat from Iraq saying it threatened the USA's very existance?
That was a lie, was it not? <font color="blue"> Of course it was not a lie. If anything, it was a mistake but it was a 'well known fact' by almost everyone in the world, including those who voted to authorize war.</font color>
When Condi and GW mentioned 'the mushroom cloud', was that not a brazen deception? <font color="blue">There were a lot of sources that supported that potential. The policy of 'preemption' IMO, makes sense if there WMDs scattered about. Bush identified the 'axis of evil' and that Iraq was the most immediate danger. I generally was supportive to the action in Iraq based on the WMD arguement though I didn't appreciate the vocal Jewish 'neo-cons' being the most visable spokespeople for that war because of the appearance of a conflict of interest. </font color>
Recently GW exaggerated the threat from Iran, KNOWING that Iran stopped all nuclear weapons activity in 2003?<font color="blue">I doubt it. What is to be gained from contradciting a report what was going to become public anyway. I can only guess as to what supports his assertion but I give him the benefit of the doubt. My guess is that the President and vaious information sources, maybe hundreds, and a definite minority supported that report, but that is only a guess. Think about the various tidbits of information that if plucked out on a timely basis, we might have prevented 9/11 but that can only be view in that light in hindsight. </font color>

If Iraq is a real war, why does GW tolerate the Haliburtons, the BlackWaters etc all making a killing- in financial terms- by ripping off the Treasury ie the taxpayer? <font color="blue">The decision was made after the fall of the Soviet Union to dramatically cut the size of the military and spend the 'peace dividend'. To facilitate this cut, plans were made to use contractors to fill support positions if and when they were needed. Private companies like Haliburton bid on the contract but as part of winning, they have to have plans and personnel available when needed. Before they were needed, this was a burden rather than a profit and even now, Haliburton's profits are not any higher than others in the energy services industry, their main business. I think there is one thing that is axiomatic in government contracting business: Some people will make a lot of money, especially during wartime because there isn't time to 'get the best deal' </font color>
Some would call that war profiteering- punishable by death by firing squad!!!!
How many times has Haliburton been caught pumping the price up. $ 100 laundry? Remember that?........... and still they have been awarded more contracts?? <font color="blue">I am not all that concerned about this sort of detail. There might be time to look closer after we win the war but to me it just seems an inappropriate waste of time. Ask yourself how best to win the war, have a bunch of hearings with no conclusions or simply delaying these till later. </font color>

Please, if you want to slam the opposition, its allowed but don't give the Govt, the decision makers ie those responsible for the present mess , a free ride.
The first responsibility of any citizen in a Democratic country is to criticize their Govt when its deserved.
In a Democratic country politicians are SERVANTS of the people, not rulers. When the people ask a question it should be answered. <font color="blue"> Really, the first sustaining principle of a democratic country is to go along with the majority even if it is only one vote. And, we are in fact a Republic, meaning we vote for representatives to use their best judgement. I do not object to the individual citizen questioning anything he wants but I do object to the minority who actually participated in the arguement and vote, doing everything possible to renege on their responsibility and hence undermine democratic principle at its most basic level. </font color>
Geez, have you all forgotten that GW was AGAINST the 9/11 Commission? A Com designed to correct the mistkes and make America safer?
That GW REFUSED to testify under oath?
That he didn't want Condi to testify? <font color="blue">Bush said he is protecting the immunity and progatives of the executive branch as many other presidents have done and I take him at his word. The Left here as about everywhere else if attempting to criminalize policy for political gain. </font color>

Why wouldn't he want Condi to testify? Surely it couldn't be to hide the fact that a memo entitiled "Bin Laden determined to attack the US" was considered by this Admin to be a historical document! <font color="blue">same privilage </font color>
Despite the numerous warnings , the Admin did nothing other than to protect themselves. <font color="blue">On the one hand, Bush is critized for not picking up on the pieces of information before 9/11 while on the other hand he is critized to picking up on pieces of information concerning Iran. I think the administration is doing what I think is right even though they know full well that there is going to be a lot of waste. It is obviously easy to impute alterier motives, second guess results or blame everybody and his brother but just because it is possible, I don't think it is proper in time of war. </font color>

Fact. Ashcroft flying high (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/26/national/main303601.shtml)







&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
(CBS) Fishing rod in hand, Attorney General John Ashcroft left on a weekend trip to Missouri Thursday afternoon aboard a chartered government jet, reports CBS News Correspondent Jim Stewart.

In response to inquiries from CBS News over why Ashcroft was traveling exclusively by leased jet aircraft instead of commercial airlines, the Justice Department cited what it called a "threat assessment" by the FBI, and said Ashcroft has been advised to travel only by private jet for the remainder of his term.
<hr /></blockquote>

The US political system is all based on cash. If you have enough money and influence, a small group of super-rich people could buy the Govt and a Pres. Thats why you have to control the super rich and not let them control the country. <font color="blue"> The idea that conservatives follow is to minimize the powers resting in government and therefore not of a lot of interest to wealthy. It if commonly accepted that power corrupts and from that premise, avoid concentrating it in DC. </font color>


...BTW, if I was making $100 mil per year I would happily pay %50 in tax over that amount and be thankful. <font color="blue"> Most people that earn that much do pay quite a bit in taxes. It would be short sighted to give the government an extra, say $25 mil because whatever else you might do with that money would me better for you and the economy in general than is you gave it to government, the very most inefficient spender of money possible. Better to give it away, put it in the bank, buy another mansion, invest in stock or whatever you do would maximize the use of those funds. You have to understand that the economy works because of supply and demand and all government spending distorts the wants and needs of both sides of that equation. </font color>
The problem with individuals gaining too much wealth is that they can interfere with the democratic system.

Its a fact that most people the majority want free health care. They are in the majority but it doesn't happen. Why not. <font color="blue">It wouldn't that much prompting for everybody to want a Cadillac and it would do wonders for the auto industry. (you heard it here firt) </font color>

Q ............a zillion e-mails missing........... The DoJ scandal- the politicizing of another branch of Govt to attack the opposition and protect crooked Republicans. The list is friggin endless. Torture. Alu Tubes, Niger, Plame, etc etc to infinity. Do a google on Jack Abramoff, DeLay etc (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4838792.stm) <font color="blue">This is a whole pile of nothing but loud rants for political gain, IMO </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

LWW
01-08-2008, 05:06 AM
llotter, how dare you inject logic and truth against an argument based on emotion, ideology, ignorance, innuendo, obfuscation, and deliberate deception.

LWW

pooltchr
01-08-2008, 05:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>

Its a fact that most people the majority want free health care. They are in the majority but it doesn't happen. Why not.

<hr /></blockquote>
Q...basic economics 101...there is no such thing as free health care. Health care must be paid for by someone. Either the person who gets it, or in some cases, in whole or in part by their employer. If the government pays for it, every tax payer pays for it. But I guess it's too much to expect that people would take responsibility for their own health care.
When the government tells you they will give you something for free...it's probably going to cost more than if you paid for it yourself.
Steve

DickLeonard
01-08-2008, 07:35 AM
Qtec my favorite Google is the Bush Crime Family a site not often visited by his supporters. Still waiting for Eg8r to have visited it.####

llotter
01-08-2008, 07:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> [Q...basic economics 101...there is no such thing as free health care. <hr /></blockquote>

Excellent Point pooltchr. In fact, the idea that there exists 'something for nothing' is the fundamental flaw of the Left but still has an irresistable appeal to politicians who know better and voters who don't. Sometimes refered to as the 'Tragedy of the Commons', it underlies virtually every policy the Left has been promoting since Marx. Property rights are fundamental to a free society but are non-existent in left wing ideology.

hondo
01-08-2008, 07:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bamadog:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> Your heroes:
George W. Bush
Leona Helmsley
Joe McCarthy
Dick Cheney
A pompous aristocrat, 2 war mongers and a hate monger.
Hmmm. They just don't make heroes like they used to.
Be afraid, be very afraid, indeed! <hr /></blockquote>

One out of four is about your average. Dance puppet. <hr /></blockquote>

Back to the name-calling? I didn't think you'd last long.
Well, I'm not biting. I'm out of the darkside.
See you at DCC, my friend.

hondo
01-08-2008, 07:59 AM
I apologize about Bush &amp; Cheney.
I'm old enough to remember McCarthy, are you?
Trust me. He was poison.
They televised the hearings. i watched them.
Asking ridiculous questions and cutting them off before
they had a chance to respond.
The Salem Witch trials all over again.
McCarthy was a mean, evil man.

LWW
01-08-2008, 08:14 AM
Very similar to what just happened with Gonzales and Plamegate.

No evidence.

Millions of accusations.

Lives ruined.

A willing media.

LWW

Gayle in MD
01-08-2008, 09:08 AM
The forties! Jeeze, how damn old od you think I am?

You say you're for freedom, but you are against Women's rights to make personal private choices with their doctors. You say you're for freedom, but you don't include gay rights in that statement. You call people from the left, communists? But then, you are unaware of why the rich pay their accountants in the first place, to utilize the many tax loopholes offered to them through the complexity of our tax codes.

The wealthy do not pay their fair share of taxes, period. Go look at the General Accounting Offices charts, and you'll see where all the wealth in the country is going, to the top. When Warren Buffett's secretary pays more taxes, than he does, and he states that, you'd think people would take the time to educate themselves on what is actually going on in this country.

Yes, in the fifties, and the forties, in fact, young people were hav ing sex in high school. Now back in the middle ages, they were having sex when they were only twelve, want to talk about that?

Teenagers were drinking, having sex, and s9ome even doing drugs, in the fifties and sixties. The drug use was not as high as in the late sixties, and seventies. Back in the early 1900's, Doctors awere addicting people to drugs. It's still going on to this day. Pharmeceuticals push more drugs than any other entity, but them they are contributors to politicians, so that's OK.

Anyone who would think that Leona Helmsley's goal,. and her accountants, was to see that she paid her fair share of income taxes, has a loose screw! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

hondo
01-08-2008, 09:29 AM
Thanks, man. The only thing I can figure is that Larry &amp; Dawg are too young to remember what happened.

Gayle in MD
01-08-2008, 09:36 AM
BWA HA HA HA...yeah, give the benefit to known, proven liars, George Bush, Condi Rice and Dick Cheney!

Where've you been for the last seven years, watching Fox?

The lies have been documented, over and over...the British Memo stated, they were fixing Intelligence to fit their policy.

REsults of Republicans in power, huge debt, bigger government, greatest number of people thrown in jail, the rich, much richer, and poor and middle class, falling and stagnant.

Results, speak louder than so called ideas, my friend. The Republicans used more earmarks for spending than ever before in history, and Bush never vetoed a single bill during their majority, Bush borrowed more money than all other previous presidents put together, and will leave more debt than ever before. The government has been expanded throughout his tenure, not shrunken.

The term Fiscal Conservative is a proven MYTH! It is an oxymoron.

Gayle in Md.
Republican voters are dumber than dirt.

hondo
01-08-2008, 09:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> BWA HA HA HA...yeah, give the benefit to known, proven liars, George Bush, Condi Rice and Dick Cheney!

Where've you been for the last seven years, watching Fox?

The lies have been documented, over and over...the British Memo stated, they were fixing Intelligence to fit their policy.

REsults of Republicans in power, huge debt, bigger government, greatest number of people thrown in jail, the rich, much richer, and poor and middle class, falling and stagnant.

Results, speak louder than so called ideas, my friend. The Republicans used more earmarks for spending than ever before in history, and Bush never vetoed a single bill during their majority, Bush borrowed more money than all other previous presidents put together, and will leave more debt than ever before. The government has been expanded throughout his tenure, not shrunken.

The term Fiscal Conservative is a proven MYTH! It is an oxymoron.

Gayle in Md.
Republican voters are dumber than dirt.



<hr /></blockquote>

Ouch, ouch, that has to hurt, Larry.
And now for your distort, er, I meant retort. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

hondo
01-08-2008, 09:52 AM
Gayle, here is my reply to a post on AZ by a guy called Cuaba:

"Hill &amp; Bill were just low-life grifters who came to Washington to line their pockets by selling influence &amp; renting the White House.

Now her campaign is in trouble because she's been selling influence in her next administration, but its starting to look like she won't be able to deliver.

I don't hate either one of them. When Bill came to my home town, I attended his speech with respect. The level of hate for Bush from the left is far worse than my party's dislike for Hillary."

My response:



Do you have proof for these accusations?
If Bill was just a low-life grifter, I'll take that any day over the destructive,
ignorant shyster we have in there now.
We're going to be trillions in debt.
Our kids are stuck in another Nam.
Gas prices are affecting all aspects of the country.
Hate &amp; partisanship has never been higher.
We are now feared &amp; hated around the world, and, no, that's not a good thing.
We have legitimized terror and thus blurred the distinction between us &amp; THEM.
Personal rights are rapidly disintegrating.
ANYBODY, with the possible exception of McCain and Romney would be
better than what we have now.


Thought you might enjoy that. Patisanship has blinded people. We're drifting further and further apart.

LWW
01-08-2008, 10:04 AM
Most people don't cut and post their debacles on other forums ... not that there's anything wrong with it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

LWW

hondo
01-08-2008, 10:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> Most people don't cut and post their debacles on other forums ... not that there's anything wrong with it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

LWW <hr /></blockquote>

As you know, I'm not most people.

LWW
01-08-2008, 11:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>The lies have been documented, over and over...the British Memo stated, they were fixing Intelligence to fit their policy.

Gayle in Md.<hr /></blockquote>
No it doesn't, but you knew that.

I will give you credit however, you are very good at making it look almost like what it said.

LWW

LWW
01-08-2008, 11:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote LWW:</font><hr> Most people don't cut and post their debacles on other forums ... not that there's anything wrong with it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

LWW <hr /></blockquote>
True dat.

LWW

As you know, I'm not most people. <hr /></blockquote>

LWW
01-08-2008, 11:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>REsults of Republicans in power, huge debt, bigger government, greatest number of people thrown in jail, the rich, much richer, and poor and middle class, falling and stagnant.

Gayle in Md.
Republican voters are dumber than dirt. <hr /></blockquote>
You were on the money until you reverted to Marxette on me.

LWW

LWW
01-08-2008, 11:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>Results, speak louder than so called ideas, my friend. The Republicans used more earmarks for spending than ever before in history, and Bush never vetoed a single bill during their majority, Bush borrowed more money than all other previous presidents put together, and will leave more debt than ever before. The government has been expanded throughout his tenure, not shrunken.

Gayle in Md.
Republican voters are dumber than dirt.<hr /></blockquote>
And the use of double standards while claiming "HOLIER-THAN-THOU" status speaks loudest of all for it is the voice of deflection.

LWW

LWW
01-08-2008, 11:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>The term Fiscal Conservative is a proven MYTH! It is an oxymoron.

Gayle in Md.
Republican voters are dumber than dirt.<hr /></blockquote>
Untrue, they are just smart enough to spot a clsoet liberal like Bush when they see one.

LWW

Gayle in MD
01-08-2008, 11:26 AM
I just hope that the sheep will take some time and review who owns 90% of the wealth in this country, and how Bush's tax policies have favored the rich, on the backs of the middle class.

As for the nutty 25% to 30%, who believe anything that comes out of Bush's, Rice, or Cheney's mouth, the majority of American, don't. That's a fact. Bush is now nothing more than a very bad joke.

No President, (with the assistance of his party members) has hurt this country to this degree.

Republicans do not have a single good candidate to vote for. Huckabee, is nothing but a charlaton, dressed up in preachers clothing. He has already been caught in lies, and is completely void of any foreign experience. He smashed up all the hard drive before he left the governors office. Who want to look at Gomer Pyle in the White House for four years?

MC Cain, will have us at war for F-ing ever! He's also a hot head, who is thought of as having emotional problems by the blue collar workers in the Senate Office Building. He's for amnesty, REagan's brilliant idea, which brought this whole illegal alien mess upon us long ago.

Romney, a complete jerk, no foreign experience, flip flops on everything, tied the family dog on the roof of his station wagon, and drove 800 miles in the cold? I don't think so, besides, he can't hold his own in a debate. He's plastic, all rhetoric, no brains.

The rest of them are out of the ball park completely. They only have one candidate that makes any sense, and that's Ron Paul, and they don't have the sense to get behind him, lol, sheep are dumb.

Guiliani, OMG, who could look at that face for four years! That wife of his must love money, a LOT! He's a total creep, and was responsible for the lost lives of hundreds of firemen due to his poor judgement. Listening to him speak is a joke...9/11, blah blah bhah, 9/11 blah blah blah,9/11 blah blah blah...he made more money off 9/11 than anyone in New York, not to mention his ties to that cheating, thieving Bernie thug, who he recommended as our Homeland Security Chief, LMAO, great judgement, that, and screwing around on every wife he had. No foreign affairs experience. Zilch, and more fear mongering, most of us are sick to death of that.

They're going to get more militant as they view the results of their party's seven years of free for all spending, earmarks through the roof, operatives in jail, ties to corrupt lobbyists, sexual predators, growing the federal government, running up debt, and growing the Jihadist movement. Disasterous!

/ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

LWW
01-08-2008, 11:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>Gayle in Md.
Republican voters are dumber than dirt.<hr /></blockquote>
And, as I predicted, you can't survive without hate.

That being said ... I agree.

I also agree that those who vote democratic are even farther down the IQ/educational scale and the party hacks here prove this with far greater eloquence than I ever could.

Join us in the light Gayle. Help us take the nation back.

LWW

Qtec
01-08-2008, 01:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Of course it was not a lie. If anything, it was a mistake but it was a 'well known fact' by almost everyone in the world, including those who voted to authorize war.<hr /></blockquote>

Really! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1X-I-38lrU

"In Cairo, on February 24 2001, Powell said: "He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours."

This is the very opposite of what Bush and Blair said in public.

Powell even boasted that it was the US policy of "containment" that had effectively disarmed the Iraqi dictator - again the very opposite of what Blair said time and again. On May 15 2001, Powell went further and said that Saddam Hussein had not been able to "build his military back up or to develop weapons of mass destruction" for "the last 10 years". America, he said, had been successful in keeping him "in a box".

Two months later, Condoleezza Rice also described a weak, divided and militarily defenceless Iraq. "Saddam does not control the northern part of the country," she said. "We are able to keep his arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt."

[ QUOTE ]

When Condi and GW mentioned 'the mushroom cloud', was that not a brazen deception? <hr /></blockquote>

[ QUOTE ]
There were a lot of sources that supported that potential. The policy of 'preemption' IMO, makes sense if there WMDs scattered about. Bush identified the 'axis of evil' and that Iraq was the most immediate danger. I generally was supportive to the action in Iraq based on the WMD arguement though I didn't appreciate the vocal Jewish 'neo-cons' being the most visable spokespeople for that war because of the appearance of a conflict of interest. <hr /></blockquote>

"A conflict of interest"?
"visible spokespeople"?
The spokespeople were the instigators and the drive to war. They were the one's who wanted this war- despite the fact that the weapons inspectors on the ground in Iraq were saying "the intel is wrong".

Does it surprise you the Jewish American neo-Cons were in support of the Iraq war?

America removed a threat to Israel, not America.
The US has spent Billions and 1,000s of lives to carry out Israeli foreign policy objectives.

Q

hondo
01-08-2008, 03:24 PM
You're not allowed to say that, Q. Time for anti-semite accusations to start.

LWW
01-08-2008, 03:41 PM
America removed a threat to Israel, true.

And to the US.

And to Kuwait.

And to Iran.

And to Saudi Arabia.

Yes he had attacked each and every one.

By so threatening the ME he threatened the world.

He was also paying Palestinian families $10K to use their children as homicide bombers inside Israel.

Those attacks killed numerous Americans.

He paid for and sheltered the hijacking of the Achille Lauro and caused the death od US citizen Leon Klinghofer.

These are the facts and they are beyond reasonable dispute.

Saddamite Hussinsein was in and of himself a WMD.

Many on the left all know this to be true yet ignore it.

You won't challenge any of it for those very reasons.

Leon Klinghofer and hundreds of thousands of other of my countrymen and my fellow humans have not died in vain and I will not let the lies of the left hide the monster that was Saddamite Hussinsein.

LWW

pooltchr
01-08-2008, 06:51 PM
Since you have decided to share your opinion of the Republican candidates, please allow me to return the favor.

Edwards,
The absentee senator from North Carolina. Elected to office, he immediately headed to New Hampshire to begin looking for another job. Opulant lifestyle is counter to his claims of being for the "ordinary guy". Made a fortune as an ambulance chaser. Couldn't even carry his home state in the last election because, even us morons from the south know better than to support him.

Osama...er...Obama
Called "ineffective" as a senator by those who worked with him. A do nothing senator. If we have to have a Dem in the White House, I suppose we would be safer with someone who doesn't do anything. It would sure be better than...

Hillary. A socialist through and through. Still hurting from not being able to get her health care plan in while she was the first witch, she can't wait to try again. She might hold off long enough to give amnesty to all the illegal alien invaders first. The woman clerked for a law office and spend a summer working with the defense team for the militant black panthers. Oh yeah, she also did some work for the communists in California. Thinks that since her husband was President, that makes her the best qualified candidate for the job. With that line of thinking, mabye the Packers should draft Brett Farve's wife to be their new quarterback when he retires!

Steve

Gayle in MD
01-08-2008, 07:10 PM
That's pretty funny Steve, your take on it. Problem is, Americans are turnig out almost three to one for the Democrats, so far, and even the right wing press, is impressed with Obama...You'll have to get out there and educate them. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Gayle in Md.
Hey folks, I'm done with this thread, it's too long...

llotter
01-09-2008, 11:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> The forties! Jeeze, how damn old od you think I am? <font color="blue">You are old enough to know better but obviously don't </font color>

You say you're for freedom, but you are against Women's rights to make personal private choices with their doctors. You say you're for freedom, but you don't include gay rights in that statement. You call people from the left, communists? But then, you are unaware of why the rich pay their accountants in the first place, to utilize the many tax loopholes offered to them through the complexity of our tax codes. <font color="blue">If, you define 'choice' as killing babies, yes, I couldn't be more strongly against that 'free choice'. Yet another hero of mine was that fellow from NC, I think, that shot that abortionist and I'm sorry he got caught.

It is not exactly that I am anti-gay but I am anti-gay lifestyle being forced onto the public, using gestapo tactics, a lifestyle that directly opposes our own heritage. How about the Christian couple that wouldn't rent a room in thier own house to a gay couple and had to pay thousands in fines and lawyer fees and ended up having to sell their own home to pay those debts. Ditto the Christian printer who was bankrupted with such expenses because he refused to print literature that advocating that lifestyle. Or the Boy Scouts, a Christian organization, that has spent years and untold expenses trying to keep gay scoutmasters out of their organizations. There are hundreds of such cases where the Left is doing everything it can to 'cleanse' our socitey of religion in general (except Islam, of course) and Christianity in particular.

The top 1% of income taxpayers pay more income taxes than the bottom 95%. Is that communist enough for you? </font color>

The wealthy do not pay their fair share of taxes, period. Go look at the General Accounting Offices charts, and you'll see where all the wealth in the country is going, to the top. When Warren Buffett's secretary pays more taxes, than he does, and he states that, you'd think people would take the time to educate themselves on what is actually going on in this country.

Yes, in the fifties, and the forties, in fact, young people were hav ing sex in high school. Now back in the middle ages, they were having sex when they were only twelve, want to talk about that? <font color="blue">In the middle ages, people only lived to the mid-thirties and maybe getting married young was needed to maintain and grow the population. The relevant difference between not and the fifties, other that the trememdous increase in unhealthy sex, drinking, drugs, un-wed parents among teenagers, is that society used to consider it wrong and try provide some good guidance. While now much of society considers it a perfectly good and to hear them tell it, a positive thing. You might say that 'if it feel good, do it' is the modern mantra in spite of the fact that the large majority would not advocate that behavior for their own kids. As I said about abortion, ideas have consequences and those foisting such stupidity on the public have to take responsibility for the disasterous world being built.

When I have said that the Left if building a new world sans religion and point out all of the negative consequences are piling up all around us, you just seem to be in a state of denial. Any evidence I list just seems to have no meaning to you. </font color>

Teenagers were drinking, having sex, and s9ome even doing drugs, in the fifties and sixties. The drug use was not as high as in the late sixties, and seventies. Back in the early 1900's, Doctors awere addicting people to drugs. It's still going on to this day. Pharmeceuticals push more drugs than any other entity, but them they are contributors to politicians, so that's OK. <font color="blue"> There are a lot of people not doing the right thing today...they are the product of this era of lacking in any sense of personal responsibility. Replacing the God or religion that has been so successfully undermined, are the natural substitutes: money, drugs, sex, greed, and the rest of Sins that religion trys to keep in check. </font color>

Anyone who would think that Leona Helmsley's goal,. and her accountants, was to see that she paid her fair share of income taxes, has a loose screw! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">IMO, the Left is in fact winning control away from those traditional value system and we are wittessing our own social undoing as a result. </font color>

eg8r
01-09-2008, 12:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
If, you define 'choice' as killing babies, yes, I couldn't be more strongly against that 'free choice'. Yet another hero of mine was that fellow from NC, I think, that shot that abortionist and I'm sorry he got caught.
<hr /></blockquote> You have definitely gone overboard here. I also am completely against the baby killing they like to call abortion but I don't understand how on earth you could side with someone who commits murder like this. If religion is the reason behind this man's actions, don't you think this individual has some "skewed" view of what his religion would consider right and wrong? Any man that kills another because of an abortion in the name of religion is no different than a man carrying a bomb on his back and blows up a cafeteria in the name of that religion.

eg8r

llotter
01-09-2008, 12:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
If, you define 'choice' as killing babies, yes, I couldn't be more strongly against that 'free choice'. Yet another hero of mine was that fellow from NC, I think, that shot that abortionist and I'm sorry he got caught.
<hr /></blockquote> You have definitely gone overboard here. I also am completely against the baby killing they like to call abortion but I don't understand how on earth you could side with someone who commits murder like this. If religion is the reason behind this man's actions, don't you think this individual has some "skewed" view of what his religion would consider right and wrong? Any man that kills another because of an abortion in the name of religion is no different than a man carrying a bomb on his back and blows up a cafeteria in the name of that religion.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

It is long established legal doctrine that a person is entitled to kill someone who is threatening immediate bodily harm or death to a third party. Imagine a person wielding a gun walking down the street shooting people...you are not only entitled to take action to stop him from stooting more people, it is almost a civic duty to kill him if that alternative is available to you.

Gayle in MD
01-09-2008, 12:59 PM
Tap Tap Tap, thanks Ed, well said. This man is a perfect example why I say that fundalmentalism is a dangerous threat, both here, and in the Middle East. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

eg8r
01-09-2008, 01:02 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It is long established legal doctrine that a person is entitled to kill someone who is threatening immediate bodily harm or death to a third party. <hr /></blockquote> If the law is what you are basing your opinion on then why don't you recognize the law that allows abortion? Your long established legal doctrine only comes into play if said person is threatening harm or death ILLEGALLY.

[ QUOTE ]
Imagine a person wielding a gun walking down the street shooting people... <hr /></blockquote> OK, just to be clear your example is displaying a person acting in an illegal manner (unlike the person that had an abortion or did the service of providing an abortion).

eg8r

Gayle in MD
01-09-2008, 01:02 PM
Wolfdancer was right, you are one sick puppy. Get some counseling. /ccboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

eg8r
01-09-2008, 01:08 PM
This is a good example of two people (you and I) on opposing sides of an issue (abortion) can still agree. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

Gayle in MD
01-09-2008, 01:20 PM
Whoppie! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Hey, we're making progress, Ed. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

eg8r
01-09-2008, 01:22 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

eg8r

llotter
01-09-2008, 01:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> This is a good example of two people (you and I) on opposing sides of an issue (abortion) can still agree. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

For a while, I thought that subjust was straying too far for the thread title but I now see ugly consequences of our education system so let me straighten you out before you to get dragged into the darkness so far that you'll never find your way out.

There is a mega difference between 'rule of law' and 'color or law'. It is not possible to 'legalize' murder which goes against the 'Laws of nature and of Nature's God'. Regardless of what the legislature does, or the Courts do, or even the majority does, contradicting these inviolable laws is only traveling under the 'color or law' It was exactly this activity of King, the law is what I say it is, George that provoked the Revolution. The only reason there isn't yet a revolution now is that we've sold our souls. (ref: Declaration of Independence)

eg8r
01-09-2008, 03:05 PM
[ QUOTE ]
There is a mega difference between 'rule of law' and 'color or law'. It is not possible to 'legalize' murder which goes against the 'Laws of nature and of Nature's God'. Regardless of what the legislature does, or the Courts do, or even the majority does, contradicting these inviolable laws is only traveling under the 'color or law' <hr /></blockquote> Can you post all the "Laws of nature and of Nature's God" so that we can make sure you are not making them up in the future. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif You blew it and now you are drowning. Make up whatever laws you would like but the fact of the matter is that you have decided that taking the law into your own hands is being lawful and I think you are flat wrong. I am comfortable stating, in God's eyes, the man who shot the person because of abortion is no different than the mother having the abortion and the person providing the service.

Since you are stuck on all these laws I am surprised that you are ignoring the first 10 laws, one of which says "Thou shall not murder". It does not say it is OK to kill if someone else did.

eg8r