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geno368
01-02-2008, 11:36 AM
I am considering purchasing a laser stroke trainer. Joe Tucker sells one and is expensive. Tom Simpson endorses another laser line instrument which attaches on top of your cue. (http://www.laserstroke.com/) It is much cheaper, but doesn't seem like a great product. Anyone have any experience with either one? <font color="blue"> </font color>

wolfdancer
01-02-2008, 03:05 PM
I don't own one, but Joe's would be the one I would purchase.
While it seems "expensive"...it's both well designed and well made....and costly for him to manufacture.

1Time
01-02-2008, 03:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote geno368:</font><hr> I am considering purchasing a laser stroke trainer. Joe Tucker sells one and is expensive. Tom Simpson endorses another laser line instrument which attaches on top of your cue. (http://www.laserstroke.com/) It is much cheaper, but doesn't seem like a great product. Anyone have any experience with either one? <font color="blue"> </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

I have no experience with these.

Pool requires the use of your imagination, to "see" lines, angles, etc., and anyone can easily develop this without the use of such devices. Further, I would not in the least consider it advantageous to use one of these laser devices for pool instruction.

Deeman3
01-02-2008, 03:40 PM
I'll buy one of these when they are rated at 20,000 mega watts and will burn your opponnts eyes out from across the room.

I have a green one you could try. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif They might not allow you back in the pool hall for a while.

sygfrid
01-02-2008, 04:04 PM
IMO, save the money &amp; get yourself a real instructor.

randyg
01-02-2008, 04:24 PM
We use the Laserstroke in Pool School.

It's a great tool for teaching our aiming system (S.A.M.)

You can actually see where your cue tip is pointing.

Doesn't do much for anyones stroke....SPF=randyg

1Time
01-02-2008, 04:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> It's a great tool for teaching our aiming system (S.A.M.) <hr /></blockquote>
What does your aiming system "S.A.M." stand for?

randyg
01-02-2008, 05:36 PM
Suplemental Aiming Method........SPF=randyg

Bob_Jewett
01-02-2008, 06:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote geno368:</font><hr> I am considering purchasing a laser stroke trainer. Joe Tucker sells one and is expensive. Tom Simpson endorses another laser line instrument which attaches on top of your cue. (http://www.laserstroke.com/) It is much cheaper, but doesn't seem like a great product. Anyone have any experience with either one? <font color="blue"> </font color> <hr /></blockquote>
The LaserStroke appears to be the same as the LaserShark which was being sold about 10-12 years ago, IIRC. The idea was the same -- the small device mounts on top of the cue stick and projects a fan-shaped vertical beam forward. You can see the resulting line on both the cue ball and the object ball. If you have a light wall or board behind the object ball, you can see any wrist twist very clearly.

The LaserShark people were at a BCA trade show and challenged some pros to try it to see how straight their strokes were. According to the story, only Allen Hopkins had a stroke that didn't wander a lot.

It is useful for working on certain kinds of stroke problems since it provides immediate feedback on twisting and swerving. It's a useful tool for an instructor who will be using it with multiple students or for a student who has plenty of cash and a lust for gadgets.

BigRigTom
01-02-2008, 07:41 PM
Thanks Bob for a very objective review of this thing. I considered buying one a few times but have never had the urge and cash at the same time. Your comments ring true to me even though I have never tried one on them....yet.

I do have one of Doug Carter's stroketrainers and while it cost me 3 times as much it has help me to straighten out my stroke so that I can now hit those long straight ins more consistently. It too is a good (non-electronic) gadget type tool and like most others it will help some people who apply themselves. The actual value of most gadgets is very subjective and differs with each individual. None are the mystical magic bullet that many of them claim to be.

1Time
01-02-2008, 08:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr>You can actually see where your cue tip is pointing. <hr /></blockquote>
And that should have what bearing on one's ability to make the shot?

1Time
01-02-2008, 08:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>
The LaserShark people were at a BCA trade show and challenged some pros to try it to see how straight their strokes were. According to the story, only Allen Hopkins had a stroke that didn't wander a lot. <hr /></blockquote>
This means your stroke need not be perfect to get great results.

For immediate feedback without an expensive gadget, have the student shoot a long straight in shot.

Bob_Jewett
01-02-2008, 10:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> ...

For immediate feedback without an expensive gadget, have the student shoot a long straight in shot. <hr /></blockquote>
Well, yes, but ... If you want to try to work towards "ideal orthodox" fundamentals, then you try to remove all the little frills and wiggles and make the action as simple as possible. There are clearly many very good players (maybe all?) who don't have a laser-straight stroke, and it's not clear that it would be useful to try to reform their fundamentals. Irving Crane played OK with some out-to-in swoop in his stroke. There are other more novice players who are starting out with some inconsistent amount of swoop and to make improvement they will need to either groove the swoop or remove it. I think it is better to spend at least some time trying to remove it.

Your example does not give direct feedback on the straightness of the stroke. Lots of players (including me) can make long straight-ins with half an inch or more swoop in the back hand. And to many of those players, it seems like a straight stroke. It is possible to demonstrate the crookedness by various means, but I think it's most effective if the player gets the feedback in a way that is very directly tied to the physical action you want to improve, and that the feedback should occur when they are actually playing a shot to pocket a ball.

randyg
01-03-2008, 07:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr>You can actually see where your cue tip is pointing. <hr /></blockquote>
And that should have what bearing on one's ability to make the shot? <hr /></blockquote>

If a student aims with his cue stick instead of his cue ball it's a good visual aid for ball pocketing.

There are three things we need to pocket a ball. Some of us are better at one thing than the other two. In school we teach R.A.D. This puts your entire aiming scheme together, or at least let's a student know what he's weak at. The Laser could help in Alignment.

1.Recognize(understanding the shot fundamentals)
2.Alignment(pointing my cue stick in the proper direction)
3.Delivery (moving my cue stick to my target)

"I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night but I am a BCA Master Instructor" /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

dr_dave
01-03-2008, 10:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> It's a great tool for teaching our aiming system (S.A.M.) <hr /></blockquote>
What does your aiming system "S.A.M." stand for? <hr /></blockquote>FYI, you can find descriptions of SAM here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads.html) under "aiming - aiming systems."

Regards,
Dave

1Time
01-03-2008, 12:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> ... For immediate feedback without an expensive gadget, have the student shoot a long straight in shot. <hr /></blockquote>
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> Well, yes, but ... If you want to try to work towards "ideal orthodox" fundamentals, then you try to remove all the little frills and wiggles and make the action as simple as possible. <hr /></blockquote>
Sure, but my point is an expensive laser gadget is not needed for this.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>There are clearly many very good players (maybe all?) who don't have a laser-straight stroke, and it's not clear that it would be useful to try to reform their fundamentals. <hr /></blockquote>
I agree. For example, it's hard for me to imagine it being a good thing to re-work the fundamentals of Efren Reyes's stroke... and with the use of a laser gadget no less.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>Irving Crane played OK with some out-to-in swoop in his stroke. There are other more novice players who are starting out with some inconsistent amount of swoop and to make improvement they will need to either groove the swoop or remove it. I think it is better to spend at least some time trying to remove it. <hr /></blockquote>
All novices have non-laser-straight characteristics of some sort in their stroke, just like the pros. There is no need to refine, correct, adjust, or remove anything in anyone's stroke if the results when shooting are desirable. However, there would be a need for change if wanting to improve. Of course a novice is in dire need of direction, but I see no intrinsic need for the use of a laser gadget. No, it even seems to me its use could function more as an inhibiting crutch than anything, thwarting the development of a player's imagination which is so essential to a good aiming system.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>Your example does not give direct feedback on the straightness of the stroke. <hr /></blockquote>
No, sorry, I did not mean to suggest that shooting a long straight in shot would give immediate feedback on the straightness of the stroke. I meant it would give immediate feedback on what actually matters, the results of the stroke.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>Lots of players (including me) can make long straight-ins with half an inch or more swoop in the back hand. And to many of those players, it seems like a straight stroke. <hr /></blockquote>
While this is true, it is also irrelevant. Novices can't do this. You set up a long straight in shot for a novice and you will get immediate feedback on the results of the stroke and without the use of an expensive laser gadget.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>It is possible to demonstrate the crookedness by various means, but I think it's most effective if the player gets the feedback in a way that is very directly tied to the physical action you want to improve, and that the feedback should occur when they are actually playing a shot to pocket a ball. <hr /></blockquote>
All the crooked stroke demonstrations imaginable have nothing to do with a novice. And all the immediate feedback needed is available for free with a long straight in shot. If an instructor can't tell from the results of such a shot the corrective action needed, then you need a better instructor.

cushioncrawler
01-03-2008, 03:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>....All the crooked stroke demonstrations imaginable have nothing to do with a novice. And all the immediate feedback needed is available for free with a long straight in shot. If an instructor can't tell from the results of such a shot the corrective action needed, then you need a better instructor.<hr /></blockquote>Oncer -- I dont agree, same with some of what randy sez, but i agree with BobJ. I must have some sort of world record for the line shot. On my new (12') table one of the first thingz i did woz to mark 12 targets along the top cushion and corresponding marks along the balkline, so that i can shoot the qball straight up and back. I put the qball dead on a mark, and shoot at its mate on the top cushion. But this would soon wear a groove in the nappy cloth. So, i allso but the qball halfway between marks, or 1/4 and 3/4 between -- now i have 48 line-shots i can play. Even last nite i uzed about 10 different cues, and a few different stroke styles, looking for something. And, i allso play heaps of straight-in-shots, with screw, stun, follow. I now know a few things about my aim and stroke, but its not enuff.

Anyhow, my mate steve iz coming over this arvo for a hit, and he iz going to bring me a lazer-pointer. I intend to install it in the butt of my hollow steel cue, pointing backwardz, into a 45dg mirror, the dot then reflekting into another mirror to send it to a target in front of me, so that i can better see what my stroke iz doing. I might even drill a hole in the tip and install the lazer so that it shines foreward, like i did a long time ago uzing an ordinary (thin) flashlight. I shood be able to say more about lazer-training next week.

When steve vizited me last week he gave me one of hiz Robo-Q's (Mark 1). This iz a spring powered steel cue (up to 3 springz aktually), for testing whatever. Its still sitting under the table, havnt had time to play around with it yet. This haz a lazer-aim fitted too. madMac.

jt10ball
01-03-2008, 08:39 PM
Seems like you have a thing for me 1Time. You also seemed like a person that based their opinion on proper information and the part about not considering in the least isn't based on trial and error or past experience is it?
Here's one message along with my reply that I just received today and I've only removed the persons last name.

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Why is this spam/nonspam?Ken Hi Joe, I just received the Laser Trainer as a Christmas gift. I have to say,...
2:18 PM (7 hours ago)

Ken Loading...2:18 PM (7 hours ago)

Ken to info
show details 2:18 PM (7 hours ago) Reply



Hi Joe,
I just received the Laser Trainer as a Christmas gift. I have to say, I was amazed at how it helped my stroke and aim even within the first hour.

I first thought that it wasn't made right. I didn't believe the lasers were true. But - the object-ball would go dead center ; )

So what I do is first setup to the shot with the trainer (laser off) to where I think it is straight in. Then I turn on the lasers and see if I am on or off center. I learned that I always misalign my bridge about 1/8" or so to the right.

What a great learning aid. Thanks and have a happy new year.

Ken
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Reply Reply to all Forward
Joe Tucker to Ken
show details 3:12 PM (6 hours ago) Reply



Hey Ken,

Thanks for taking the time to drop me this I really appreciate it and I'm glad it helped. I hope it helps you with various angled shots as well, I know it did me and some others. But the most important shot is that straight in one and I had the same effect as you I really thought the laser were off but it was ME. Now if we can get all the rest of the pool players to realize they're probably off I might have a real winner.

Thanks and write anytime,
Joe T


If you have no experience with it then whats wrong with just staying out of it? And to go one further I'll bet that with this laser trainer I can take any player especially beginners and help them build a straighter stroke faster than any instructor in the world.

wolfdancer
01-03-2008, 09:09 PM
One of the first hurdles to overcome in learning this game....is aiming.. I think Joe's device could shorten the curve there considerably. I can pocket balls pretty good, but am considering buying one to help out some teammates, and double check on a few shots for myself.

Scott Lee
01-03-2008, 09:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote geno368:</font><hr> I am considering purchasing a laser stroke trainer. Joe Tucker sells one and is expensive. Tom Simpson endorses another laser line instrument which attaches on top of your cue. (http://www.laserstroke.com/) It is much cheaper, but doesn't seem like a great product. Anyone have any experience with either one? <font color="blue"> </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

I have no experience with these.

Further, I would not in the least consider it advantageous to use one of these laser devices for pool instruction. <hr /></blockquote>

1Time...These two statements by you just show ignorance. You admit you have no experience with anything like this, and yet you catagorically dismiss them as having any value. This is just one reason why some of the posters here question things that you reply to. For the record, Joe Tucker's laser trainer is an excellent learning tool. It's not the simplest tool to learn to use, but once you figure it out, it has great application possibilities.

Scott Lee

ceebee
01-04-2008, 12:06 AM
Joe Tucker has a good idea going here. I see the device as a good learning mechanism.

I believe one possible reason, that limits players in their development to a certain degree, is their eyesight &amp; the "mental picture" they develop. There are no points or lines on the balls, the cue &amp; there are no lines on the Pool Table, so we are limited to the "picture we see", for lining up a shot &amp; executing it successfully.

Joe Tucker's "laser trainer" can be a good assistant, in this realm. With the aid of a "precision instrument", the player can begin to develop a "precision directional stance", so the cue is pointed &amp; stroked in the correct direction. If the rifle is pointed correctly, the bullseye can't be hit!

GOOD LUCK in your quest to play this great game.

randyg
01-04-2008, 07:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1Time:</font><hr>....All the crooked stroke demonstrations imaginable have nothing to do with a novice. And all the immediate feedback needed is available for free with a long straight in shot. If an instructor can't tell from the results of such a shot the corrective action needed, then you need a better instructor.<hr /></blockquote>Oncer -- I dont agree, same with some of what randy sez, but i agree with BobJ. I must have some sort of world record for the line shot. On my new (12') table one of the first thingz i did woz to mark 12 targets along the top cushion and corresponding marks along the balkline, so that i can shoot the qball straight up and back. I put the qball dead on a mark, and shoot at its mate on the top cushion. But this would soon wear a groove in the nappy cloth. So, i allso but the qball halfway between marks, or 1/4 and 3/4 between -- now i have 48 line-shots i can play. Even last nite i uzed about 10 different cues, and a few different stroke styles, looking for something. And, i allso play heaps of straight-in-shots, with screw, stun, follow. I now know a few things about my aim and stroke, but its not enuff.

Anyhow, my mate steve iz coming over this arvo for a hit, and he iz going to bring me a lazer-pointer. I intend to install it in the butt of my hollow steel cue, pointing backwardz, into a 45dg mirror, the dot then reflekting into another mirror to send it to a target in front of me, so that i can better see what my stroke iz doing. I might even drill a hole in the tip and install the lazer so that it shines foreward, like i did a long time ago uzing an ordinary (thin) flashlight. I shood be able to say more about lazer-training next week.

When steve vizited me last week he gave me one of hiz Robo-Q's (Mark 1). This iz a spring powered steel cue (up to 3 springz aktually), for testing whatever. Its still sitting under the table, havnt had time to play around with it yet. This haz a lazer-aim fitted too. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

What did randy sezd that you don't agree with????...randyg

ceebee
01-04-2008, 05:06 PM
CORRECTION needed on my post &gt;&gt;&gt; If the rifle is "NOT" pointed correctly, the bullseye can't be hit!

1Time
01-04-2008, 06:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ceebee:</font><hr> CORRECTION needed on my post &gt;&gt;&gt; If the rifle is "NOT" pointed correctly, the bullseye can't be hit! <hr /></blockquote>
I knew that's what you meant, but it's still not true. It is not essential to have the cue pointed precisely at the "bullseye" (whatever that is) prior to the stroke. And one thing this laser devise would sure to be good for is proving that to be the case. Of course it often does help to start off pointing the cue in the general direction of the shot.

cushioncrawler
01-06-2008, 04:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr>...Oncer -- I dont agree, same with some of what randy sez, but i agree with BobJ...<hr /></blockquote>What did randy sezd that you don't agree with????...<hr /></blockquote>Randy -- I think it woz the... "Doesn't do much for anyones stroke". But, of course, seeing az i have never uzed a lazer, i aint really in a pozzy to say that -- and, anyhow, whether i am correct in saying that allso dependz on exaktly what u meant.

Did u mean that the lazer(s) iz too diffikult to follow (see) during a real shot (i mean during a stroke with no ballz), ie in real time (ie other than in slow-mo footage)??? madMac.

pooltchr
01-06-2008, 05:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> ]Randy -- I think it woz the... "Doesn't do much for anyones stroke". <hr /></blockquote>

Lasers don't do much for anyone's stroke. They can be a good tool to help someone learn to visualize the aiming line. Knowing how and where to aim is important, but if you don't have a stroke that can deliver the cue ball where you are aiming, you still have a problem.

RAD = Recognize the shot Align yourself to the shot Deliver the stroke

Steve

randyg
01-06-2008, 06:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr>...Oncer -- I dont agree, same with some of what randy sez, but i agree with BobJ...<hr /></blockquote>What did randy sezd that you don't agree with????...<hr /></blockquote>Randy -- I think it woz the... "Doesn't do much for anyones stroke". But, of course, seeing az i have never uzed a lazer, i aint really in a pozzy to say that -- and, anyhow, whether i am correct in saying that allso dependz on exaktly what u meant.

Did u mean that the lazer(s) iz too diffikult to follow (see) during a real shot (i mean during a stroke with no ballz), ie in real time (ie other than in slow-mo footage)??? madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

Yes. A good stroke goes up and down as well as back and forth. A laser beam would be all over the place from the movement.

If one learned to stop their cue (in practice) then the laser beam might become very helpfull....SPF=randyg

cushioncrawler
01-08-2008, 04:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr>....Yes. A good stroke goes up and down as well as back and forth. A laser beam would be all over the place from the movement. If one learned to stop their cue (in practice) then the laser beam might become very helpfull....<hr /></blockquote>Yeah, this week i have got my stroke about az good az i can ever get it. I got someone to check my aim from behind the OB (for a straight-in shot) -- i aim allmost 1/2 ball left-of-center, and i have a right to left sort of banana hoik in my stroke. So, then, uzing a No15 pool ball, i then played the up'n'down shot, playing with my aim.

I found that i hadta adjust my aim, uzing over 1mm of front-hand-pivot, then 1mm of back-hand-pivot (this iz for ordinary shots hitting the qball center-ball or higher).

But, for hardish skrew shots, i hadta uze allmost 3mm of FHP plus allmost 2mm of BHP (the left edge of the 9mm tip endz up pointing for the center of the qball). Now, the No15 qball skrewz back dead straight and pure (ie no unintentional sidespin).

Anyhow, no lazer needed. madMac.

SPetty
01-09-2008, 01:30 PM
I haven't seen a link for this device yet. Is there a web site that describes it and offers it for sale?

DeadCrab
01-09-2008, 03:42 PM
Find it at www.joetucker.net (http://www.joetucker.net)