Weird 8 ball situation; rule loophole?

[Alaskan_Pool]

Hello all.

Here's the situation. I was playing 8 ball with a fellow last night and we agreed on BCA rules. Guy breaks and pockets a ball then misses (the table is still open). I am left tough so I nudge a ball into the rail and leave him snookered behind it with nothing to shoot at (still open table). He nudges the ball and doesn't get a rail so I pick up the cue ball and he says this is a foul (that I fouled by picking it up). When I explain that he didn't get a rail he says it doesn't matter. I was sure I was right but then we got out the rules and now I'm not so sure.

Rule 4.11 which defines a legal shot states: [ QUOTE ]
4.11 LEGAL SHOT
(Defined) On all shots (except on the break and when the table is open), the shooter must hit one of his group of balls first and (1) pocket a numbered ball, or (2) cause the cue ball or any numbered ball to contact a rail. Please Note: It is permissible for the shooter to bank the cue ball off a rail before contacting the object ball; however, after contact with the object ball, an object ball must be pocketed, or the cue ball or any numbered ball must contact a rail. Failure to meet these requirements is a foul.<hr /></blockquote>To emphasize: "On all shots (except on the break and when the table is open)..." That's what he pointed to and which I can't figure out why he's wrong, if he is. If the table is still open you don't need to hit a ball and a rail? Seems wrong but reading the rule, he seems to be right.

Does this mean that when the table is still open I can shoot the cue ball two inches, not touch anything and there's no foul? A little help would be appreciated!

Thanks

[bsmutz]

The break and open table ONLY apply to the part where you have to hit one of your group of balls first. It has nothing whatsoever to do with driving a ball to the rail. Obviously, if neither player has made a ball, you can't hit a ball from your group first since you don't yet have a group. Unfortunate that they worded it that way so the guy you were playing could make it something it's not.

[Bob_Jewett]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alaskan_Pool:</font><hr> Hello all.

Here's the situation. I was playing 8 ball with a fellow last night and we agreed on BCA rules. ... <hr /></blockquote>
There is a new set of World Standardized Rules out as of January 1st. There is a link to them a the end of the misc. files section of the www.sfbilliards.com (http://www.sfbilliards.com) web site. The rule you cite is very poorly written and should be ignored. The only time I can think of at pool when you don't have to hit a cushion is on a push out. (Or are lagging for break, but a no-rail lag automatically loses.)

[underdog]

You must ALWAYS hit "a rail after contact".

[canadan]

it was ball in hand for him...you must ask..."is it ball in hand?" cant just grab the cb...

[Sid_Vicious]

That is a very important fact. Most players will never be an AH and call it against you, but ALWAYS ask before grabbing it, even if it seemed obvious that you and the others around watching that you had BIH.

Question, how far away from the rail did he miss? If it wasn't real close, I'd write this player off for one-on-one play of any kind...sid

[Alaskan_Pool]

Thanks for the responses. I'm going to go read the new rules. Thanks for that link Mr. Jewett. It'll be interesting to see how and what they've changed and clarified.

Regarding fouling by picking it up, yeah, you may be technically correct, but we were playing friendly, for a coffee, and there was no bad blood here. In a different situation I would call it first but we were casual and had already played a few games and had already imposed on each other in similar ways. I'm just trying to figure out the rule for this specific situation.

Regarding bsmutz's post as well as underdog's: okay, I hear you, got to get a rail, but no one has said WHERE that rule comes from (the old rules as of 4 days ago:-). The only rule I see about getting a rail is the rule he cited.

Sid: he was behind the ball (cue ball closer to the rail than the object ball) and shot toward the open part of the table, rather than toward the rail without it reaching.

[9baller]

thank you guys for the replys to AP and for that rules link.it helped me aswell

[Bob_Jewett]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> ... There is a new set of World Standardized Rules out as of January 1st. There is a link to them a the end of the misc. files section of the ... sfbilliards.com ... web site. ... <hr /></blockquote>
The new World Standardized rules are now on the WPA web site: www.wpa-pool.com (http://www.wpa-pool.com) with links for the various references. Be sure to also look over the "Regulations."