View Full Version : APA-----------SANDBAGGING-------SAMETHING

02-25-2002, 05:22 PM
been reading the posts regarding the APA and sandbagging and would like to share my personal views. does anyone know how to calculate a players rating other than a league operator? ask any two LO's and you will get two different anwsers. under penalty of the law the rating system cannot be divulged by either a LO or anyone that has ever worked for the APA. WHY? ---- ever turn in a scoresheet and see a player go up that just his/her last match?----ever hear that so & so is locked down-----ever had your new scoresheet delivered at the same time that your last weeks scoresheet was picked up-----ever had a LO tell you that he doesn't need both scoresheets because they should both be the same-----my favorite "the computer made a mistake"-----why would a team get disqualified at a national event when the LO allowed sandbagging throughout league play, play offs and the city tournament IF YOU EVER NEED TO TALK TO A LO JUST LEAVE AN IOU WITH YOUR SCORESHEET ALONG WITH A NOTE THAT YOU WILL PAY NEXT WEEK, he will call you and you will not have to leave all those messages!!!! SOMETIMES I WONDER WHO IS SANDBAGGING THE LEAGUE PLAYERS OR THE LEAGUE OPERATOR

Scott Lee
02-26-2002, 08:48 AM
Whoever you are, obviously you don't have the guts to identify yourself. I posted recently on the 'sandbagging' issue within the APA. As a former L.O., I know exactly how the handicap system works, and have told any number of people why it works, and what makes it work, including people right here on the CCB. You complain about several issues dealing with the league operator at the local level. Like I said, there will be dishonesty and cheating in ANY organization...sometime among the players, and sometimes from a dishonest L.O. However, you cannot catagorize ALL APA league operators in that same vein. While it is true that one bad apple can spoil the whole barrel, the APA does a pretty good job of policing itself, and it's operators. They are an independent group, but still fall under the control of the parent organization. The APA can, and has before, taken away franchises from league operators who were not running the league according to the specifications laid down in their franchise agreement. If you have any proof of the charges you make, you can take it up with APA in St. Louis. They WILL follow up and investigate.

Scott Lee

02-26-2002, 09:38 AM
Just curious...you identify yourself as a "former League Operator". Why "former" and not "current"? It seems that if run correctly and received well by the playing community, that would be a "franchise" you would never sell!

One other question, in your humble opinion as a former LO...don't you think a better scoring system could be developed that could be more accurate of a players abilities? Simply scoring innings and wins/losses seems ripe for sandbaggers.

I believe TAP uses a system based on pocketed balls, innings, safety play, wins and losses. I could be wrong but you have more knowledge than I do in this area.



Rich R.
02-26-2002, 10:01 AM
Ken, I hope you don't mind me jumping in here, but I have to say that people will find a way to cheat, regardless of the system. I play in both APA and TAP leagues and I hear all the garbage about APA beening loaded with sandbaggers. After playing in both leagues, I will tell you first hand that players attempt to sandbag in both leagues and I have been assured by other players that the BCA is no different.
Last night in the TAP league, one of my teamates, correctly rated a level 5, had to play against another level 5 player from the other team. I play in the same APA league with this other player and I know he is a solid level 7 player in the APA. How do you get a two level difference, without sandbagging? In fact, I have seen more sandbagging in the TAP league, after only two months, than I have seen in the APA league in over a year. I guess my point is, that it is not necessarily the rating system you use, players will find a way around it, if they want too. The leagues have to find better ways to police the players and the rating systems. Personally, if they want the free trip to Vegas, or wherever, that badly, they can have it. If I want to go, I'll buy a ticket. But I will be able to hold my head up when I get there. Rich R.

02-26-2002, 10:47 AM
IF TAP is new to your area, as compared to the APA, did the APA "7's" take advantage of the chance to start out at an "entry level" rating with TAP?

If so...they (the players) cannot really consider themselves players...I don't care how well they play (IMO)!

I've seen players that arrive here from another state do this very thing...holding an APA rating somewhere else but beginning as a "4" or a "5" here.


Ken (believes integrity and respect is more important than a plaque)

Rich R.
02-26-2002, 11:16 AM
Ken, I'm sorry, but I can't answer your question. I am new to TAP, but they have been in this area for some time. I'm not sure how long, but at least a couple sessions prior to me joining. When I joined TAP, I was told I would be rated at the highest level I had attained with "ANY" other league. I have no idea if the alleged sandbaggers entered as an entry level 4 or not. I would also be interested in knowing the answer to that question. I may attempt some discreate detective work on my own. Rich R.

02-26-2002, 11:38 AM
thank you for the comment. the reason i choose to be anonymous is because once upon a time i went to the APA in St. louis to voice my concern after trying many time to resolve issues with our LO. the answer i got was that the LO can run the league as he sees fit. this includes adjusting player handicaps as he sees fit regardless of whats entered into the computer(scoresheet results) --- the APA is the only game in town. because i mentioned starting a new BCA league i was personally threatened with being kicked out of the league and also having my team dropped. since my team was qualified for the national tourn i had no choice but to quit and allow our team to continue.--- does this sound like a league anyone would like to be involved with? at this time i no longer play in the APA and will continue to try to start another player friendly league.--- have found that the league team captains have been WARNED not to speak to me about another league.
would you please post some info on the TAP league, it sounds a lot like the BCA and could be another option

02-26-2002, 12:54 PM
As Scott has pointed out on previous occassions, one of the reasons sandbagging continues is because the players recording the innings either DO NOT record defensive shots correctly due to ignorance, or laziness or the fact that they aren't paying attention and are busy talking and drinking beer instead of watching the game. The LO has no control over THAT other than to repeatedly try to educate team captains on the importance of recognising and recording defensive shots properly.
Another factor is that you often have well intentioned league operators who simply do not have the advanced knowlege of the game and the experience to evaluate a players skill level correctly by observing their game first hand and identifying intentional defensive manuevers. It is possible to evaluate a player by their shot selection, pattern play and stroke mechanics which will reveal things about their skill level that might be in direct contradiction to what's happening on the table. But if the league operator can't evaluate these things objectively due to lack of knowlege, that doesn't make them dishonest. You also can't always rely on what other players tell you because many captains, teams, and players are self serving and are only looking for an advantage rather than being concerned with the overall health and fairness of the league.

02-26-2002, 01:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> would you please post some info on the TAP league <hr></blockquote>

Go to www.poolpa.com (http://www.poolpa.com) for info on starting a TAP League.

I would have PM'd you with more info if you were able to get PM's, but you'd have to register for that.

02-26-2002, 01:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Anonymous:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; would you please post some info on the TAP league &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Go to <a target="_blank" href=http://www.poolpa.com>www.poolpa.com</a> for info on starting a TAP League.

I would have PM'd you with more info if you were able to get PM's, but you'd have to register for that. <hr></blockquote>

But then, of course, the rest of us would have missed out on this info!

02-26-2002, 02:05 PM
I glad we don't have that bad here.
We have APA, BCA, and a few local leagues.
I was a memeber of the APA and BCA at the same time. Actually I was a sub for a BCA team. This BCA team had 3 APA players and the APA LO himself. I been AN APA member for several years and have talked to the LO very often. Many times he has mentioned other leagues and has encouraged me and others to play in different league. Not to get rid of anybody but simply to explore different leagues and styles. I think he believes that the more people who play pool, the more interest there will be in his league. I have to agree since it is working pretty well here. Natually some people don't like one league or another but as a whole they all get along.

My $.02

02-26-2002, 04:33 PM
The APA does precisely what it was designed to do. That being to offer a forum that a majority of the pool players can enjoy. In my opinion it really is not designed for the excellent players. And by raising the SL to a 6 or 7 it effectively forces them to move on to another forum - like the BCA. And the APA must be doing something right because they boast of over 100,000 members. Members who go out and have fun once a week. And part of the fun is complaining that the only reason they lost is because the other guy should have been a higher SL. But when they have a great night it is not because their skill level is too low. Jake~~~used to think that some guys missed shots on purpose but has come to realize that they missed the shot because they are bad players. And they are still missing the same shots. Or playing the wrong pattern.

02-26-2002, 10:48 PM
The actual address to find all you can about TAP is their home address located at www.tapleague.com. (http://www.tapleague.com.) The web address you gave is local LO Sam Rullo in the Laurel Highlands Division located closest to Johnstown, PA. I am a LO for TAP in Easton, PA close to Allentown. Our scoresheets keep track of balls made on break, misses, completions, safes, balls left on table, and numberous other things. TAP itself keeps track of a players past performances and DOES NOT allow the LO to raise or lower a persons handicap. However anyone involved with TAP can request a handicap audit to the corporate office. This can ONLY be done after a player has completed 6 matches so that there is a sense of what he can/cant do. Please remember that in all leagues things are not perfect and cheating will always be there. By corporate not allowing the LO a chance to interfere with the handicapping some players may feel that they may cheat, but in reality ANYONE in TAP can call the office and have that audit done. Any other questions that I may answer I would be glad to be of assistance.

02-27-2002, 02:57 AM
Sandbagging is unstoppable under any objective system. A player who deliberately plays "sloppy" until the big Vegas tournament cannot be detected. An astute high-level pool player might recognize the signs of laying low by noticing certain shots that reveal a players real speed, but no objective system based on wins/losses, balls/inning, etc. will.
A rating system only based on win/loss record is the most effective at limiting the sandbagging payoff during the regular season, but there is still a potentially big payoff in the post-season tournament . Formulas like the APA's actually make sandbagging more effective. Since number of balls/inning is a component of the APA ranking system, a player can exploit that by deliberately running up innings. The APA system does have a built in stop gap though - if your winning percentage gets too great then you move up no matter the average balls/inning. So during the regular season, an APA player can manipulate the system up to a certain point, but no further. Again, the big payoff is in the post-season tournament since the player can let out their true speed as needed at that time to just barely win critical matches.

02-27-2002, 03:40 PM
thanks everyone for your comments. it seems that all leagues have the same problems with sandbagging to some extent. i guess what will make any league better is having a LO that will take care of business. i can only speak about the league in which i used to play and its present LO. he seams more interested in the $$$ coming his way instead of managing the player handicaps. in the years i played in the APA i only saw the LO when he was picking up money of scoresheets. captains meeting always talked about but never happened.
Scott Lee glad to hear that your a "former" LO, its good to know someone who has the GUTS to admit he is a has been. next time instead of going off on a rant how about sticking to the freaking question.
as i stated the reason i quit the APA is because i was threatened with not only myself being kicked out of the league for trying to start a better league but also having my qualified team dropped from the national tourn. don't need guts when you have heart!!!!!

02-27-2002, 06:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>i guess what will make any league better is having a LO that will take care of business<hr></blockquote>

Better players will make the league better.

Always trust the untrustworthy to create a need for bureacracy and a constabulatory (of sorts).

Fred Agnir
02-28-2002, 09:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> been reading the posts regarding the APA and sandbagging and would like to share my personal views. does anyone know how to calculate a players rating other than a league operator? <hr></blockquote>

The information is out there. If you hadn't posted anonymously, I may have pointed the way. Such is life.

Everyone knows that with any handicapped system (particularly in pool) there will always be a portion who choose to work the system, and a portion who are accused of working the system. One reality is that the handicapping system of any league is very dependent on the local talent pool. For APA particulary, if nobody is hitting back at you (that is, they aren't winning many games off of you), then your *total* innings/wins ratio (the core of the APA handicap) will be lower. Such is the case from town to town, where one town you might be a weak SL-5, and the next town you may be the strongests SL-6. It's not always about sandbagging. Often it's about the strength of the local competition that points out a discrepancy. And those in areas with relatively weaker competition will accuse the stronger area of sandbagging. It's not always the case.


Fred Agnir
02-28-2002, 10:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Ross:</font><hr> Formulas like the APA's actually make sandbagging more effective. Since number of balls/inning is a component of the APA ranking system<hr></blockquote>

"Balls/inning" is not a component of the APA rating system. I don't know of any league rating system that uses balls/inning. Maybe you meant something else?