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Artemus
01-12-2008, 08:54 AM
What do you consider to be the fundamentals of pool which MUST be mastered and adhered to in order to play or develop to highest levels?

My picks are:

1. Grip (bridge hand and backhand) (there are a number of variables)

2. Stance - (there are a number of variables)

3. Posture - (upright, low, in between)

4. Alignment and Aim

I don't include the stroke itself because in my way of thinking the stroke is merely a by-product of the fundamentals.

Anything else involved in the stroking of the shot are either options or choices, imo.

What are your views?

pooltchr
01-12-2008, 11:42 AM
Grip, Bridge, Stance and Stroke

Until a player has those 4 things, the isn't a lot of point in working on anything else.

Steve

Billy_Bob
01-12-2008, 11:53 AM
A definition of "fundamental" is: underlying principles of something or foundation.

So I would include...

-stroke (stance, grip, bridge, etc.)
-speed of hit (full hit kills ball, thin cut does not, etc)
-hit of CB (english, follow, draw, etc.)
-what CB will do after contacting OB (30 deg., 90 deg, etc.)
-OB behavior (99 critical shots stuff)
-ball hitting cushion basics (angles, angles with english, fast hit, slow hit, long/short tables, etc.)
-Rules of the game.

Billy_Bob
01-12-2008, 12:47 PM
Also position play - The basic idea of leaving the cue ball (after your shot) in a spot where you can easily shoot in your next ball. Then leaving the cue ball on the "right side" of your next shot so you will then be able to shoot that shot to leave the cue ball in a good spot for the shot after that, etc.

dr_dave
01-12-2008, 12:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> What do you consider to be the fundamentals of pool which MUST be mastered and adhered to in order to play or develop to highest levels?<hr /></blockquote>See my "Pyramid of Progress" and "Rack of Skills" illustrations (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/pyramid_of_progress_and_rack_of_skills.pdf). To me, all of the balls in the "Rack of Skills" (especially balls 11-15) are the "foundation" fundamentals.

See my fundaments "best practices" check-sheet (http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/best_practices_check_list.pdf) for more detail.

Regards,
Dave

Artemus
01-12-2008, 01:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Grip, Bridge, Stance and Stroke

Until a player has those 4 things, the isn't a lot of point in working on anything else.

Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Steve, do you include posture and alignment as part of the "STANCE" portion or not even focus on what's usable for the person in those areas? Is what you teach "dry" without the use of balls?

Where does how to "aim" fit in?

pooltchr
01-12-2008, 04:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Grip, Bridge, Stance and Stroke

Until a player has those 4 things, the isn't a lot of point in working on anything else.

Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Steve, do you include posture and alignment as part of the "STANCE" portion or not even focus on what's usable for the person in those areas? Is what you teach "dry" without the use of balls?

Where does how to "aim" fit in? <hr /></blockquote>

The question was what are fundamentals...I answered the question. I teach a lot more than fundamentals in my classes...but that is where we START.
And yes, we do have students hitting balls when teaching fundamentals. I'm not too concerned as to whether or not they make shots at that point in the instruction, since we are working on the mechanics of moving the cue stick forward in a straight line. That motion is the foundation of developing a good pool game. Once you can move the cue stick forward in a straight line consistantly, we move on to other aspects of the game.
If you really want to know everything we teach, you are always welcome to sign up for the class. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Steve

Artemus
01-12-2008, 05:22 PM
Thanks for the offer Steve, but I don't need to go through fundamentals training and get those kinds of lessons. That's not where I'm at in life with the game.

What I want lessons on is how to run 150-200 balls in straight pool without blowing a mental gasket or get stuck in midstream like I'm doing a Rubik's cube.

wolfdancer
01-12-2008, 06:02 PM
Jack Nicklaus used to go back to his teacher (Jack Grout) each year before the season started, and work on his fundamentals, as though he was new to the game.Similarly...
My friend went down to Cue-Tech as a BCA Master player, and came back with a better understanding of, and improvement on, his fundamentals. He's going back now in a few weeks to continue his instructor's study.
Not sure you can teach anybody to aim...since I believe the hand eye coordination must be acquired through repetition....but you can show them the basic principles.Doubt if anybody can teach someone how to run 150 balls, since each shot involves a decision both about it and the next two shots (at least)

Artemus
01-13-2008, 10:01 AM
Isn't the decision making/shot playing process the most important part of straight pool? THAT is what I need. I want to know what a high run artist is thinking about on any given shot in order that I can change MY thought processes. Apparently, they don't work as well as they should.

I only get high runs now because I'm a damn good shotmaker and don't miss many balls when they're there for the taking after I break someting out. But even when I get a decent run, I know in my own mind that I didn't get there by going about it the correct way and it's inhibiting progress.

wolfdancer
01-13-2008, 11:46 AM
I used to watch an excellent player and sometimes wondered why he left the CB where he did, since I saw the table differently...eg..I would have set up for a side pocket shot, instead of a longer one to the end pocket....a couple of shots later it would all make sense...and I could see his pattern play was way superior to mine.
I think that is an innate talent that falls under spatial intelligence....some people just visualize better then others. I believe we can all improve with experience, but never get to their level. Just my own idea, by the way.....I'm sure many would argue the point.

Artemus
01-13-2008, 01:35 PM
OK, how about this. Can you do a Rubik's cube solution at all? What if someone showed you the keys or method to do it and beat it into your head everytime you tried yourself until you got it right?

I might not have the greatest foresight in the world, but my head isn't so thick that I wouldn't listen to someone that knows more about the correct way. Hey, in a certain way I KNOW I can run 200 balls. I'll get a decent number of 50+ runs over a period of time now. All I have to do is string 4 of them TOGETHER! Problem is, I CAN'T!!

wolfdancer
01-13-2008, 02:10 PM
I've never even tried a Rubik's cube " A man's got to know his limitations"
I know there are some keys involved in solving the puzzle.
I don't know if you will be able to run 200 balls....there may be "keys" that once learned would enable you to do that. I just think for some gifted people, the patterns are more apparent. Joe Montana said that when the game was on the line, there seemed to be a time warp...everything was happening in slow motion...I don't think you can practice that.
An old, very old pool book that I had...placed players in three categories:
C players were new to the game, but they could practice and learn.....and become a B player.
A players though were born with the skills necessary, and no amount of practice could move you into that level.
For the majority, I think that is correct....but hard work and determination has worked for some.
Reading stories of some of the old time great players....a constant theme is about 6 months after taking up the game, they were beating their peers, and everybody else in the joint.
In golf,in about the same time frame, they were shooting in the 70's. I think it's called natural talent...
If someone has been playing the game for X number of years, and isn't running 200 balls...I don't think it's ever going to happen....but?????
Hey, 50 ain't bad...I haven't hit that mark yet.

New2Pool
01-13-2008, 04:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I've never even tried a Rubik's cube " A man's got to know his limitations"
I know there are some keys involved in solving the puzzle.
I don't know if you will be able to run 200 balls....there may be "keys" that once learned would enable you to do that. I just think for some gifted people, the patterns are more apparent. Joe Montana said that when the game was on the line, there seemed to be a time warp...everything was happening in slow motion...I don't think you can practice that.
An old, very old pool book that I had...placed players in three categories:
C players were new to the game, but they could practice and learn.....and become a B player.
A players though were born with the skills necessary, and no amount of practice could move you into that level.
For the majority, I think that is correct....but hard work and determination has worked for some.
Reading stories of some of the old time great players....a constant theme is about 6 months after taking up the game, they were beating their peers, and everybody else in the joint.
In golf,in about the same time frame, they were shooting in the 70's. I think it's called natural talent...
If someone has been playing the game for X number of years, and isn't running 200 balls...I don't think it's ever going to happen....but?????
Hey, 50 ain't bad...I haven't hit that mark yet. <hr /></blockquote>

From reading an article about Kid Delicious, he went through a period where about all he did was play pool. Do you think that for most of the people on this board, if we quit our jobs and did nothing but play pool with deliberate practice for 6 months, would we be better than our peers?

I am not any good at pool (but I am gettting less awful, I ran my first rack at 9 ball the other day) but I have the illusion that if I were able to put all my time into it I could be pretty good. Not at the professional level mind you, but competitive enough to be able to be give a good match to most any amatuer on a good day.

The best pro's have years and years of practice and experience and they are at a different level than most of us mortals.

I am not looking for an argument here, I know that I don't know enough to know what I don't know so I am asking some of the better players what they think. If Fran or some of the other professionals believe that they have a special talent that most people just don't have then I am sure they are correct. I suspect that the pro's just work at it a lot harder and more consistently than most of us though.

pooltchr
01-13-2008, 05:53 PM
Wolf...numbers are just that...numbers. If you can run 3 balls, you can run 3 more and then 3 more and you just ran a 9 ball rack. If you can run 50, what's to keep you from running 60? It's a combination of consistancy...both physically and mentally. I know I can run 150....I just haven't been that consistant for a long enough period of time. You know how to make a shot, and how to get shape on the next one. It's only a matter of how many times in a row you can keep it up. Most of us have the skill and knowledge to make several balls in a row. Very few have the ability to remain so completely focused as to hit the big numbers, but it doesn't prevent us from trying.
Steve

Qtec
01-13-2008, 09:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> What do you consider to be the fundamentals of pool which MUST be mastered and adhered to in order to play or develop to highest levels?

My picks are:

1. Grip (bridge hand and backhand) (there are a number of variables)

2. Stance - (there are a number of variables)

3. Posture - (upright, low, in between)

4. Alignment and Aim

I don't include the stroke itself because in my way of thinking the stroke is merely a by-product of the fundamentals.

Anything else involved in the stroking of the shot are either options or choices, imo.

What are your views? <hr /></blockquote>


Grip in itself is not a fundamental. You always have to grip the cue to play the game, its a necessity.
HOW you grip the cue is important and THAT is dictated by the fundamentals. ie, you can grip the cue any way you want as long as its a relaxed grip.

The same goes for stance, stroke etc etc.

Qtec

wolfdancer
01-13-2008, 11:39 PM
Hey, don't take my thoughts wrong....."A" players in that authors view, would be those that can compete well at the pro level. "B" has a pretty wide range... any good instructor, and the board here is blessed with them, can give you the tools to
go as far as your talent and dedication will take you...
I think for most people quitting their jobs and spending 6 mos
practicing pool.....might be ready to give the game up.
It's only recreation, and a social event for me....

Artemus
01-14-2008, 05:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
Grip in itself is not a fundamental. You always have to grip the cue to play the game, its a necessity.
HOW you grip the cue is important and THAT is dictated by the fundamentals. ie, you can grip the cue any way you want as long as its a relaxed grip.

The same goes for stance, stroke etc etc.

Qtec

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>
So in other words, if I understand what you're saying, there ARE NO FUNDAMENTALS. Just be relaxed and comfortable, correct?

Grab the cue, stand up to the table and the ball, and give that sucker a good thrashing in the right direction of another ball. OK, sounds good to me. I think I need to revamp my game and outlook on everything.

I think you might have a few other people here disagreeing with your thoughts and methods, it's just a matter of whether they want to bother or not.

<hr /></blockquote>

Artemus
01-14-2008, 06:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>I know I can run 150....I just haven't been that consistant for a long enough period of time.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Maybe it's also because your goals and my goals aren't lofty enough along with the rest of it. Did you know that Mosconi ran 589 balls unfinished? Can you imagine doing something like THAT?

I'm reading "The Hustler &amp; The Champ" by R.A.Dyer and here's an exerpt:

"Willie asked me if I'd rack a few balls for him--he wanted to get in stroke for the show," said Charlie Ursitti. "And then he set up a break ball and proceeded to run fourteen straight racks."

That's FOURTEEN racks. That's two hundred balls, give or take. "Before he opened the rack for the fifteenth, we stopped to order coffee and a Danish from room service," said Ursitti. "And he kept shooting, and I kept racking. When I'd rack, he'd stop for a sip of coffee and a bite of Danish.

"After eleven MORE racks, still without missing a ball, we decided to call room service again and get some sandwiches. He kept shooting them in, only stopping to take a bite of food while I racked, until he'd run seventeen more racks. Then he said, 'That's enough; I'm getting tired' and fired the break ball in the pocket. That's forty-two perfect racks--589 balls, UNFINISHED. Petey Margo was on the show, and he came in and watched for a while. So did John Oganowski (father of Loree Jon Jones, formerly Oganowski), and Steve Mizerak stopped by a couple of times. Willie did it all so effortlessly; he was so fluid."

It wasn't an official record, not like Willie's 526 in Ohio, with the affidavit attesting to the feat, and the witnesses listed at the Smithsonian. It was just Willie Mosconi, age SIXTY-SIX, knocking balls around a practice table and eating a room-service Danish. It was as if Willie could not help but plow through racks.

<font color="red"> I think I'm going to burn all of my pool cues today! </font color>

Fran Crimi
01-14-2008, 08:30 AM
I agree with your list, except I would add the stroke as a fundamental because it would only be a by-product if was the direct result of a particular action. The stroke is not the result of grip, stance, posture, alignment or aim, but rather it's an action taken after all of the above have been accomplished.

Also, in noting the order in which things occur, it doesn't necessarily mean that the last thing in the order is the by-product of those that come before it.

Fran

Artemus
01-14-2008, 08:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I agree with your list, except I would add the stroke as a fundamental because it would only be a by-product if was the direct result of a particular action. The stroke is not the result of grip, stance, posture, alignment or aim, but rather it's an action taken after all of the above have been accomplished.

<font color="red"> Yeah, I see what you're saying and that's a good point. </font color>

Also, in noting the order in which things occur, it doesn't necessarily mean that the last thing in the order is the by-product of those that come before it.

<font color="red"> Yeah again. I guess I was thinking ahead of myself regarding stroke to more or less mean "the effectiveness and quality of the stroke" can be and is a by-product of those fundamentals that come before it. IOW, lousy fundamentals with grip, stance, posture and alignment usually show up in a lousy out of whack stroke. Good fundamentals make a good stroke easier, but it still needs work. Are we getting closer now?</font color>


<hr /></blockquote>

Billy_Bob
01-14-2008, 11:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> ...What I want lessons on is how to run 150-200 balls in straight pool...<hr /></blockquote>

Perhaps you could break this large goal into smaller goals?

I don't know where you are at in your game, but start out with a goal which is difficult but can be reached. Like run 50 balls. [Adjust this goal up or down for where you currently are in your playing ability.]

Then when you do that, up the goal to 75 balls, etc.

Also identify problems, then work on those specific problems.

Might want to videotape your playing. Then when you get stuck with no shot, play back the video and think about what you could have done differently with the shots prior to that. Maybe set up the table a few shots back, then try again to proceed from that point.

There are a couple of books on this...
Play Your Best Straight Pool - Capelle
Straight Pool Bible - Cranfield

Bob_Jewett
01-14-2008, 06:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> What do you consider to be the fundamentals of pool which MUST be mastered and adhered to in order to play or develop to highest levels?
... What are your views? <hr /></blockquote>
I think you left out one of the most important ones. Memory. Many players can't remember from one rack of eight ball to the next what was wrong with their break shot. Or what angle can be achieved for such-and-such a cut on a close ball. Or how a safety came out the last time they were in this situation. Or even what is required for the 90-degree rule to work.

mantis
01-14-2008, 11:18 PM
Bob, I agree with you because I see it in my own game. It seems that the best way to combat that is with focused practice and repitition until it becomes automatic. Learning the game in a step by step pattern, and not moving on until you fully understand, and can perform each task subconsciously, and when you play, only use the skills you have mastered so as not to cloud the subject with those you have not. That would of course take continual guidance. I do think it would be the quickest way to one's best game. I currently generally just go to my table and play, trying to work on each thing as I shoot. Often times, I forget the things I learn over a period of time until I mess them up enough again to focus strongly on them. This style of practice/play seems to make the process a slow and frustrating one. I will soon be taking a lesson from Scott Lee, where I hopefully gain some direction for more focusde practice and progression.

av84fun
01-15-2008, 12:29 AM
Of course, straight pool is vastly more complex than connecting the dots after a break shot.

while there are techniques that will cause a break shot to end up better or worse...on average...the fact of the matter is that there is a LOT that is random about how they break and re-cluster.

Knowing how to "read the rack" to spot hidden dead shots and the art of getting back into a partially broken rack is what separates the men from the boys...and is largely why Mosconi, for example, had a 125-50 and out in less than 10% of his tournaments...and that record was WAY better than anyone else's.

Many don't realize that the typical 14.1 match...played at the highest levels...often with somewhere between 15-20+ innings. Therefore, correct me if I'm wrong but IMHO problems arising from the way the rack breaks out are among the leading causes of failed runouts...that and failure to get correct shape on the break shot.

Some seem to think that the first guy to get a break shot is going to run out the match but that is simply not correct except in a small minority of cases. In MANY cases, the top players will elect to end a run of say...35-50 balls with a killer safety or intentional foul rather than risk selling out with a heroic shot.

Give a layout of the last 8 balls to 5 top players and you will probably get at least two different routes...maybe three and that is because one player might prefer to break from the left rather than the right...or one likes to draw for shape rather than follow...or go 2 rails for shape instead of 1 etc.

If I was going to attempt to be a top straight pool player and could only practice two things they would be:

1. Reading the rack and
2. Route planning for the last 7-8 balls.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
01-15-2008, 12:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
Grip in itself is not a fundamental. You always have to grip the cue to play the game, its a necessity.
HOW you grip the cue is important and THAT is dictated by the fundamentals. ie, you can grip the cue any way you want as long as its a relaxed grip.

The same goes for stance, stroke etc etc.

Qtec

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>
So in other words, if I understand what you're saying, there ARE NO FUNDAMENTALS. Just be relaxed and comfortable, correct?

Grab the cue, stand up to the table and the ball, and give that sucker a good thrashing in the right direction of another ball. OK, sounds good to me. I think I need to revamp my game and outlook on everything.

I think you might have a few other people here disagreeing with your thoughts and methods, it's just a matter of whether they want to bother or not.

<hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

I have to agree with Artemus that the grip certainly is a "fundamental"...or nothing is fundamental.

Having said that, it is equally true that there is no ONE fundamental that is correct for everyone.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
01-15-2008, 12:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>I know I can run 150....I just haven't been that consistant for a long enough period of time.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

[ QUOTE ]
It wasn't an official record, not like Willie's 526 in Ohio, with the affidavit attesting to the feat, and the witnesses listed at the Smithsonian. It was just Willie Mosconi, age SIXTY-SIX, knocking balls around a practice table and eating a room-service Danish. It was as if Willie could not help but plow through racks.

<font color="red"> I think I'm going to burn all of my pool cues today! </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

And Babe Cranfield, one of the greatest and most under-appreciated players of all time ran 768 in a practice session in front of credible witnesses. But Babe was SUCH a gentleman, if he SAID he did it....he did it...and he could have cared less about getting an affidavit signed by anyone.

Regards,
Jim

Scott Lee
01-15-2008, 01:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> He's going back now in a few weeks to continue his instructor's study.<hr /></blockquote>

Actually Jack, Tom is coming to Dallas tomorrow night! Randy and I have been teaching in Phoenix for a few days, and he flies back to Dallas tomorrow too.

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
01-15-2008, 01:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Grip, Bridge, Stance and Stroke

Until a player has those 4 things, the isn't a lot of point in working on anything else.

Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Steve, do you include posture and alignment as part of the "STANCE" portion or not even focus on what's usable for the person in those areas? Is what you teach "dry" without the use of balls?

Where does how to "aim" fit in? <hr /></blockquote>

Artemus...I agree with Steve. We find that by far, the majority of students who come to us with "percieved" aiming problems, cannot move the cuestick in a straight line. When we help them correct that (through grip, bridge, stance, stroke and alignment corrections), their "aiming problems" disappear! We certainly do teach S.A.M. (Supplemental Aiming Method) to many students too!

Scott Lee

Artemus
01-15-2008, 07:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> What do you consider to be the fundamentals of pool which MUST be mastered and adhered to in order to play or develop to highest levels?
... What are your views? <hr /></blockquote>
I think you left out one of the most important ones. Memory. Many players can't remember from one rack of eight ball to the next what was wrong with their break shot. Or what angle can be achieved for such-and-such a cut on a close ball. Or how a safety came out the last time they were in this situation. Or even what is required for the 90-degree rule to work. <hr /></blockquote>

ROTFLMAO! Isn't THIS the truth!! The shots that you mentioned are one thing, but how about the fact we can't remember how we were standing and aligning all of our body parts from the previous week when in the "zone" unable to miss, to the next week when in the "pits" and bouncing it off rails?

Eric.
01-15-2008, 10:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> What do you consider to be the fundamentals of pool which MUST be mastered and adhered to in order to play or develop to highest levels?
... What are your views? <hr /></blockquote>
I think you left out one of the most important ones. Memory. Many players can't remember from one rack of eight ball to the next what was wrong with their break shot. Or what angle can be achieved for such-and-such a cut on a close ball. Or how a safety came out the last time they were in this situation. Or even what is required for the 90-degree rule to work. <hr /></blockquote>

Huge point, Bob. I mean, how can one improve if they don't remember their mistakes?


Eric

Qtec
01-15-2008, 11:30 AM
[ QUOTE ]


Main Entry:
1fun·da·men·tal Listen to the pronunciation of 1fundamental
Pronunciation:
\&amp;#716;f&amp;#601;n-d&amp;#601;-&amp;#712;men-t&amp;#601;l\
Function:
adjective
Date:
15th century

1 a: serving as an original or generating source : primary &lt;a discovery fundamental to modern computers&gt; b: serving as a basis supporting existence or determining essential structure or function : basic2 a: of or relating to essential structure, function, or facts : radical &lt;fundamental change&gt;; also : of or dealing with general principles rather than practical application &lt;fundamental science&gt; b: adhering to fundamentalism3: of, relating to, or produced by the lowest component of a complex vibration4: of central importance : principal &lt;fundamental purpose&gt;5: belonging to one's innate or ingrained characteristics : deep-rooted &lt;her fundamental good humor&gt;
synonyms see essential
— fun·da·men·tal·ly Listen to the pronunciation of fundamentally \-t&amp;#601;l-&amp;#275;\ adverb
<hr /></blockquote>



[ QUOTE ]
of or dealing with general principles rather than practical application <hr /></blockquote>


The 3 fundamentals /principals of Stance.

1. You must be able to stroke freely.
2. You must be able the get your head/eyes in the right position to aim.
3. You must be able to shoot without unnecessary body/head movement.

You can stand on one leg if you want and it would still be technically be correct- providing you are following the principals dictated by the Fundamentals.

Grip is fundamental to playing good pool but its not a Fundamental, how you grip is.

Qtec

Qtec
01-15-2008, 11:33 AM
Qtec says, "HOW you grip the cue is important and THAT is dictated by the fundamentals."


[ QUOTE ]
Quote Artemus:
So in other words, if I understand what you're saying, there ARE NO FUNDAMENTALS. Just be relaxed and comfortable, correct?

Grab the cue, stand up to the table and the ball, and give that sucker a good thrashing in the right direction of another ball. OK, sounds good to me. I think I need to revamp my game and outlook on everything.

I think you might have a few other people here disagreeing with your thoughts and methods, it's just a matter of whether they want to bother or not.
<hr /></blockquote>

Obviously you don't understand what I am saying because your reply bears no resemblance to anything I said.

Qtec

Fran Crimi
01-15-2008, 12:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The 3 fundamentals /principals of Stance.

1. You must be able to stroke freely.
2. You must be able the get your head/eyes in the right position to aim.
3. You must be able to shoot without unnecessary body/head movement.

You can stand on one leg if you want and it would still be technically be correct- providing you are following the principals dictated by the Fundamentals.

Grip is fundamental to playing good pool but its not a Fundamental, how you grip is.

Qtec
<hr /></blockquote>

Correction: They are YOUR fundamentals/principles of stance.

(Just wanted to clarify that. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

Fran

Artemus
01-15-2008, 12:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Qtec says, "HOW you grip the cue is important and THAT is dictated by the fundamentals."


&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Quote Artemus:
So in other words, if I understand what you're saying, there ARE NO FUNDAMENTALS. Just be relaxed and comfortable, correct?

Grab the cue, stand up to the table and the ball, and give that sucker a good thrashing in the right direction of another ball. OK, sounds good to me. I think I need to revamp my game and outlook on everything.

I think you might have a few other people here disagreeing with your thoughts and methods, it's just a matter of whether they want to bother or not.
<hr /></blockquote>

Obviously you don't understand what I am saying because your reply bears no resemblance to anything I said.

Qtec <hr /></blockquote>

I think here in the states we have a looser way of using the word "fundamentals" than you do over there. I have NEVER heard "following the principals dictated by the Fundamentals" used in teaching any sport.

I thought the earlier replies by both of us resembled each other quite well. We both said a lot of NOTHING.
You guys never stuck around long enough to teach us the proper ways of the "Kings English". (or was it because we kicked you out?) /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

wolfdancer
01-15-2008, 01:20 PM
Tom was here a while back, and helped me out with some things.
I stroke a little better, aim a little better, and enjoy the game more. When you have the tools yourself to win, losing isn't that bad, because you can now appreciate the other guy's game, while learning from your losses.
Using golf as an analogy...when you got as many clubs in your bag as the other guy has....you have a chance...
Up here though, everybody has a jump cue, and i don't. I keep telling them they are over the 15 club limit...jump cues, break cues, extra shafts, extenders.....
Tom's doing fine from what i hear....earning a reputation as a good instructor, and getting new students as referrals....the best form of advertising!!!
Has a good relationship with the Room Owner, as well....my old Boss, and a great supporter of pool, Delbert Wong!!!

wolfdancer
01-15-2008, 03:03 PM
I think the top straight pool player on the board is Dick Leonard. He would be the guy to ask about high runs.
An old Mosconi "legend" was that he could look at the table, see the pattern and mark on the cloth where the CB would end up after his last shot.
Steve's idea that if you can run 50, you can run 100, etc...makes sense........while you may have the knowledge, staying error free, and having the nerves hold up...i think that's what separates the really good players from the rest.

Qtec
01-15-2008, 10:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>
I think here in the states we have a looser way of using the word "fundamentals" than you do over there. I have NEVER heard "following the principals dictated by the Fundamentals" used in teaching any sport.

<hr /></blockquote>

Well you have now! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I'd love to claim that as an original thought but its an idea thats been around for 1,000s of years. All martial arts are based around certain principles eg web page (http://www.willamette.edu/~jlaronge/principles.html)

The confusion is probably my fault. I'm not very good at putting my thoughts down on paper so that someone else can understand exactly what I mean.

Steve said,
[ QUOTE ]
And yes, we do have students hitting balls when teaching fundamentals. I'm not too concerned as to whether or not they make shots at that point in the instruction, since we are working on the mechanics of moving the cue stick forward in a straight line. <hr /></blockquote>

.and I totally agree, although I would put it differently. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Qtec /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

allanpsand
01-16-2008, 06:16 PM
There's a ton of "body" fundamentals. When helping newer players out, I tend to only get them into a basic standard - bridge length about 6-8" from the ball to the bridge hand, the stick arm in a comfortable hanging position, with special attention to the forearm rigidity. Followed by the head centered over the stick about 3-5" up.

Stroke fundamentals are: close attention to stroking on a vertical center line of the cue ball, followed by working only on medium and soft strokes (no banging allowed).

When they hit about 1000 shots, they have a fairly stable stance and stroke and are finally ready to learn more about the game.

The last two fundamentals are: precision control of cue ball/stick tip action and stick speed control.