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Fenwick
01-13-2008, 05:30 PM
What are your thoughts? Would a BCA coach / instructor suggest using this as a training tool? I'm not suggesting using this instead of paying for lessons but as a starting point. I have had good results with other sports; Bowling, Golf and Table Tennis. Last if you were giving a student a lesson would you allow them to tape the lesson given the fact my faults and weaknesses would not apply to others? I am hoping this turns out to be a positive post and perhaps help others like me dig ones self out of a rut of bad habits. Thank You in Advance

pooltchr
01-13-2008, 05:56 PM
I have had several students video their lessons.
We do a video of every student, then sit down and go over it with them point by point. Once they understand what to look for on the video, it's a great tool. I don't think it's something that needs to be done every day, but every two or three months, it can be very beneficial.
Steve

DeadCrab
01-13-2008, 06:10 PM
I just set up a video camera a few days ago, and picked up on a significant stroke flaw.

It gives me something to work on, and I will do it again in a couple of weeks to see if I have corrected the problem.

mikepage
01-13-2008, 06:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fenwick:</font><hr> What are your thoughts? Would a BCA coach / instructor suggest using this as a training tool? I'm not suggesting using this instead of paying for lessons but as a starting point. I have had good results with other sports; Bowling, Golf and Table Tennis. [...]
<hr /></blockquote>

Absolutely.

I've seen too many people, upon seeing themself shoot for the first time on videotape, begin their first sentence with,

"Wow! I never realized I ...."

the ending varies:

---have such a long bridge
---shoot with that much elevation
---have my head so high
---jump up so fast
---- etc.

Of course all this information is available without a videotape if we're interested enough. But many of us don't realize what we do without seeing it from the same vantage point that we get to see other people.

The key to addressing various stroke issues with a videotape is getting good camera angles designed to see certain things. Bob Jewett has some suggestions on camera angles somewhere on (www.sfbilliards.com)--probably on the outline for their instructor course. He also has someplace a checklist for what to look for.

Many of the problems, imo, are easy for you to identify yourself. For some of the solutions, causes of the problems, and insight into what you must change, what you probably should change, and what probably doesn't really matter whether you change, a good instructor might really help.

Fenwick
01-13-2008, 07:20 PM
I plan on using a front, rear and both side views in a 4 hour practice session. I will also use a over head or over table view. Not for the full 4 hours. Thank you all for your replies and I will take all under advisement. I am committed to improve and think with the help of this site and a coach I will achieve satisfaction in knowing I'm doing my best to improve! More please, and thank you all.

Jude_Rosenstock
01-15-2008, 11:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fenwick:</font><hr> What are your thoughts? Would a BCA coach / instructor suggest using this as a training tool? I'm not suggesting using this instead of paying for lessons but as a starting point. I have had good results with other sports; Bowling, Golf and Table Tennis. Last if you were giving a student a lesson would you allow them to tape the lesson given the fact my faults and weaknesses would not apply to others? I am hoping this turns out to be a positive post and perhaps help others like me dig ones self out of a rut of bad habits. Thank You in Advance
<hr /></blockquote>

This is a very personal thing. I know there are a lot of people out there that use videotape to correct problems in their game and others (like myself) that get very little from it.

Honestly, the only time I ever saw myself on camera and got something out of it was when I was consistently jumping off the table on my break. Everything about my mechanics AFTER the break were no surprise. I play exactly how I picture myself.

Personally, I think videotaping is a means of circumventing one's problems. You need to attack the issue directly. Are you missing shots? If so, how are you missing? Do you overcut, undercut? Do you hit too far left or right? Do you have problems using english, follow or draw? Try to filter precisely which shots give you the most problems and spend some time with them.

In my opinion, these trouble shots are the key to personal development. They represent a flaw in your game once addressed will likely improve every other aspect of your game. The problem is, you KNOW which shots give you problems. You don't need videotape to tell you that. What you need are a few free hours, an open mind and a pooltable.

Fenwick
01-15-2008, 01:22 PM
"I was hoping this turns out to be a positive post and perhaps help others like me dig ones self out of a rut of bad habits."

Jude_Rosenstock
01-15-2008, 02:51 PM
Honestly, I don't care if you take my advice or not so if you are offended by a negative tone, I don't know what to tell you. Perhaps there is a hugs forum for you?

You want my opinion on books, videos and learning tools? People need to make a living, that's my opinion. Yes, there are some very good books that document important lessons. There are wonderful videos that show incredible play. There are some interesting scientific devices that illustrate key points. None of them show you how to pocket a ball. None of them wire that thought in your brain to your arm and any book/video/training device that suggests such is PT Barnum specialty.

Videos simply cannot capture thought and it's your brain that controls the cueball, not your elbow. My best advice? Read "The Inner Game of Tennis".

DeadCrab
01-15-2008, 04:30 PM
****
Videos simply cannot capture thought and it's your brain that controls the cueball, not your elbow. My best advice? Read "The Inner Game of Tennis".
*****************

I'm going to do just that. My a priori opinion is that it is probably a load of crap, being that it is:

a) a self-improvement book
b) based on the tennis mind set
c) was written in the 70's

I've never seen anything from ant of these three categories that wasn't a total load of crap, but hey, I'm open minded.
The author has since done many sequels, not unlike "Rocky" and "Police Academy", so maybe there's something there.

Review forthcoming.

Fenwick
01-17-2008, 10:24 PM
"Honestly, I don't care if you take my advice or not so if you are offended by a negative tone, I don't know what to tell you. Perhaps there is a hugs forum for you?" Did not ask for it and don't want it or need it. Taping will start tomorrow. Have you been called a Curmudgeon before? Your my way or the highway approach dose not fly with me. USMC1967-70

Gayle in MD
01-17-2008, 10:59 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You need to attack the issue directly. Are you missing shots? If so, how are you missing? Do you overcut, undercut? Do you hit too far left or right? Do you have problems using english, follow or draw? Try to filter precisely which shots give you the most problems and spend some time with them.

In my opinion, these trouble shots are the key to personal development. They represent a flaw in your game once addressed will likely improve every other aspect of your game. The problem is, you KNOW which shots give you problems. You don't need videotape to tell you that. What you need are a few free hours, an open mind and a pooltable.
<hr /></blockquote>

That is some of the best advice I've ever read on this forum.

Gayle in Md.

pooltchr
01-18-2008, 05:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jude_Rosenstock:</font><hr> I know there are a lot of people out there that use videotape to correct problems in their game and others (like myself) that get very little from it.

<hr /></blockquote>
I don't think a video session is used to correct problems, it's used to identify the cause of problems. If you constantly overcut specific shots, you don't need a video to tell you that. If you want to know why, a video can be a great tool. I don't use a video to study ball reaction or direction...I use it to show a student exactly what they are doing behind the cue ball.
If there is a problem in front of the cue ball, the cause can usually be found behind it.
Steve

ceebee
01-18-2008, 10:46 AM
I believe using the Video Camera can be beneficial. To say that a picture is worth a thousand words, a video must be worth a box car of words. Instructional Books &amp; videos are but an attempt to communicate a directive.

Communication can be a troublesome vehicle(friend to friend; book to reader; video to viewer &amp; so on..). If a player can learn from books &amp; video, that is great. Anything that can be used to learn quickly, shortens the development time.

Development happens in stages. In the game of Pool, a good stroke is the 1st required element. That is the entry point.

A good stroke is made up from a good address, a good stance, a good bridge, good eye alignment, maybe some more little idiosyncrasies &amp; a good delivery. A video can help a player to see what they are doing in this scheme of things &amp; assist the viewer to correct any problems or flaws. It will even build confidence when good results are seen.

If you have a video camera &amp; don't want to use it as a learning tool, by all means, leave it in the closet.

You can learn to be a Pool Player over the usual 3-20 years of ROTE or you can POSSIBLY learn quicker by reading &amp; viewing some of the instructional info available. Having a good teacher would also be a tremendous advantage.

Cydpkt
01-18-2008, 10:51 AM
I plan on video taping my self when I am in super stroke mode. Then if I ever get into a slump I can watch that tape to retrain and tell my muscles how it should be done. I have a nasty habit of watching someone shoot and somehow incorporating parts of their stroke into mine. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

mikepage
01-18-2008, 12:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>[...]
I don't think a video session is used to correct problems, it's used to identify the cause of problems. If you constantly overcut specific shots, you don't need a video to tell you that. If you want to know why, a video can be a great tool. I don't use a video to study ball reaction or direction...I use it to show a student exactly what they are doing behind the cue ball.
If there is a problem in front of the cue ball, the cause can usually be found behind it.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

I think Steve makes a good point. While Jude is right to say the outcome is what really matters, using the outcome as a guide to solving our problems may just introduce compensating flaws.

If you slice to the right in golf, one solution is to aim for the woods on the left. But nobody would argue this is a good solution.

As Steve suggests, there are stroke problems for which the outcome is easy to see, but the stroke/alignment flaw that leads to it is not.

I suspect that Jude in part just objects to what he perceives as a mindset that gizmos and technology and DVDs and instructors and equations and video cameras somehow replace good old fashioned wax-on wax-off.

But if you've spent a thousand hours at the table in the past year, buying a thousand beers for three or four thousand dollars while you're at it, spending a half hour with a video camera or a couple Bucks on an instructor is really not that unreasonable, imo

There's a guy I know at the poolhall who has every book ever written. And for the past year he's been at the poolhall every nearly Tuesday night practicing by himself--drill after drill. He's gone multiple times through Joe Tucker's workbook. He does the same shot over and over again checking this and checking that.

Though he has a pretty long bridge his form looks textbook, with one problem: at the set position with forearm vertical his tip is about two inches from the cueball. Clearly this set position looks right to him from his vantage point with his chin on the cue. He'd pick this up right away if he just saw himself from the side. On the other hand it would be a poor solution if he merely noticed his speed control was lacking and worked on speed control drills.

Jude_Rosenstock
01-18-2008, 12:48 PM
Imagine if a musician said they were having a problem playing a particular piece of music and said, "I'm thinking about getting a video of my violin play. What do you think?" You'd tell him he's being ridiculous. The only thing that matters is what it sounds like and to quit paying attention to whether or not his elbow was in the right place.

One person commented that by using results as your source of feedback, you might make the wrong correction. I agree but you can say that about anything, can't you? You can look at a video, see your elbow dropped prematurely and deduce that MUST be your problem when, in fact, you were just lined-up wrong and your elbow dropping was merely your subconscious' physical expression of doubt.

People always get on these boards and say things like, "Why are the Filipinos so good at pool?" or "How did Earl get so good?" Well, I could be wrong but I think it came from blunt work. They went to the poolroom, played their hearts out and asked themselves very basic questions like, "Why do I miss?" I can assure you, Efren Reyes wasn't using video cameras. Bustamante did't go to The Monk. Earl Strickland doesn't use the ghost-ball. I mean, think about that. There's a lot of stuff out there that's intriging but does it make you better? I don't think so. You want to get better, pay your dues. Go out there, hit 200,000 balls. Play as many good players as you can find. Compete. These are the three things EVERY GOOD PLAYER YOU KNOW has in common. Let go of the training wheels. You don't need them anymore.

mikepage
01-18-2008, 01:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jude_Rosenstock:</font><hr> Imagine if a musician said they were having a problem playing a particular piece of music and said, "I'm thinking about getting a video of my violin play. What do you think?" You'd tell him he's being ridiculous. The only thing that matters is what it sounds like and to quit paying attention to whether or not his elbow was in the right place.
<hr /></blockquote>

ahem ...

http://music.utsa.edu/tdml/conf-III/III-Mueller.html
[...]

[ QUOTE ]
People always get on these boards and say things like, "Why are the Filipinos so good at pool?" or "How did Earl get so good?" Well, I could be wrong but I think it came from blunt work. They went to the poolroom, played their hearts out and asked themselves very basic questions like, "Why do I miss?" I can assure you, Efren Reyes wasn't using video cameras. Bustamante did't go to The Monk. Earl Strickland doesn't use the ghost-ball. I mean, think about that. There's a lot of stuff out there that's intriging but does it make you better? I don't think so. You want to get better, pay your dues. Go out there, hit 200,000 balls. Play as many good players as you can find. Compete. These are the three things EVERY GOOD PLAYER YOU KNOW has in common. Let go of the training wheels. You don't need them anymore. <hr /></blockquote>

But Jude, it's not an either/or situation. OF COURSE hitting 200,000 balls and playing good players is the crux of any of our development.

You're creating a false dichotomy when you suggest we choose between either (A) hitting 200,000 balls or (B) trying to understand what's going on.

Instead it's

either (A plus B) or (A plus C)

where C is watching reruns of Gilligan's Island

Artemus
01-18-2008, 01:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jude_Rosenstock:</font><hr> Imagine if a musician said they were having a problem playing a particular piece of music and said, "I'm thinking about getting a video of my violin play. What do you think?" You'd tell him he's being ridiculous. The only thing that matters is what it sounds like and to quit paying attention to whether or not his elbow was in the right place. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> Jude, did you get a case of the hornies again and need to jump in bed? LMAO You're right though, it is dead here and it's good that you're livening it up. Let's see if I can add to it.

In the case of a musician, there's a difference between an accomplished musician and a beginner or an aspiring musician, not that ANY of them would use video. They wouldn't. But the beginner or aspiring musicians almost always have INSTRUCTORS right from the start teaching them what to do who have the trained eyes and ears. The trained instructors can see and hear what the problems are and can then lead them to play by FEEL, which I think is where you're leading to on this. An accomplished professional player wouldn't need an instructor but would be able to figure it out pretty quickly and do what needed to be done with correct practice. </font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jude_Rosenstock:</font><hr>
One person commented that by using results as your source of feedback, you might make the wrong correction. I agree but you can say that about anything, can't you? You can look at a video, see your elbow dropped prematurely and deduce that MUST be your problem when, in fact, you were just lined-up wrong and your elbow dropping was merely your subconscious' physical expression of doubt. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> Whether a person chooses to video tape themselves or not, I think the same problem can occur either way and that is MISDIAGNOSIS of what the real cause of missed shots are. An untrained eye with a video could be seeing something that jumps out, but isn't the primary culprit as you mentioned above. They make a correction to what they THINK is in the right direction and they end up getting entangled in a host of other problems that may now be created by an incorrect assessment. The same thing can also occur without the use of video, incorrect diagnosis regarding the primary culprit of the setup or stroke </font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jude_Rosenstock:</font><hr>
People always get on these boards and say things like, "Why are the Filipinos so good at pool?" or "How did Earl get so good?" Well, I could be wrong but I think it came from blunt work. They went to the poolroom, played their hearts out and asked themselves very basic questions like, "Why do I miss?" I can assure you, Efren Reyes wasn't using video cameras. Bustamante did't go to The Monk. Earl Strickland doesn't use the ghost-ball. I mean, think about that. There's a lot of stuff out there that's intriging but does it make you better? I don't think so. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> Yep, those guys did it just the way you stated. However, they took the game up very early in life and have a natural gift. For everyone of them, there are THOUSANDS of guys who put in the time with practice, play, and gambling that NEVER got a really decent game. For every Stevie Ray Vaughan that didn't know how to read music and played by ear but could rip sounds out of a guitar with the best ever, there are millions struggling to play even at wedding parties who have been at it for years. Some instructors don't like to use video because they DO NOT want their students to get involved in the analysis process. They just want to tell the student what to do and how to do it so they can play by FEEL and not get too locked up in the technical stuff or positions.

Other instructors like to use video to point out problems only to get the student to WANT to make the change. It's amazing how student/players will fight an instructor on change and want to continue doing it their way.

Whether a video is used or not used, or if a person gets on the table 8 hours a day for a year, the primary thing that matters is they're practicing the right way in the right areas. Practice DOES NOT make perfect. Practicing had habits over and over only ingrains the bad habit and makes you WORSE. PERFECT PRACTICE makes perfect.

So after all of that rambling, wtf is my point? I have no idea. I guess it's forget the video; forget beating your head against a wall and trying to figure it out on your own especially if you've gotten nowhere for years, seek professional help and let them be your eyes and ears. Efren, Strickland, Bustamante and many others didn't have video, but I guarantee they had a lot of help from guys that COULD shoot lights out and pool room derelicts that knew quite a bit who were their mentors and helped them out.</font color>

Jude_Rosenstock
01-18-2008, 02:56 PM
My point of bringing up the musician was simply to illustrate the point that it's a feel and thought-process you're trying to learn, not a visual concept you can capture on video. Digging up a musical opinion on learning is simply being argumentative and serves no purpose. It's the internet. You can find every opinion ever imaginable about there and I'm sure it's written well so what's your point?


Your A+B or B+C or whatever it is you're talking about is complete nonsense. YOU HAVE TO HIT BALLS and that's it. I watch people use video. It does them no good. NONE. They think, at first, it's something revolutionary like it will answer all their questions and then it becomes this sort of routine that they barely ever review unless something incredibly miraculous happens. They ran 4 racks and have to show it to everyone! But what is that? Is that the answer to all their problems? How do you solve these problems you might have?

The reasons for missing versus making are so subtle. We're talking tenths of an inch and sometimes less and yet, so many different things happen when you're successful versus when you're not.

What you have to do, in order to be successful consistently is work on your muscle memory and routine. You get this from ACTUAL play. Video won't answer it. If you want to watch others play, that's one thing. That can give you answers to scenarios that you haven't successfully dealt with before but that's different. you're watching someone else. Watching yourself? Pointless.

Jude_Rosenstock
01-18-2008, 03:03 PM
"Yep, those guys did it just the way you stated. However, they took the game up very early in life and have a natural gift."

Wow, natural gift? Are you kidding? You think it's like that? Like running or swimming? Pool is far easier than these things. It's beautiful, it's complex, it's amazingly difficult to master but don't fool yourself. The skills required to play pool are minimal. ANYBODY with two arms, two legs and an IQ no higher than my dog's can play pool. Don't give the game too much credit. Don't write off that skill level so quick. What the pros do is not so amazing. Yes, you are looking at years upon years of experience. You are looking at hundreds of thousands of balls pocketed but it is not inherent ability that allows them to succeed. I hear talk like that and I KNOW you're a C player who has become an expert at it.

Artemus
01-18-2008, 03:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jude_Rosenstock:</font><hr> "Yep, those guys did it just the way you stated. However, they took the game up very early in life and have a natural gift."

Wow, natural gift? Are you kidding? You think it's like that? Like running or swimming? Pool is far easier than these things. It's beautiful, it's complex, it's amazingly difficult to master but don't fool yourself. The skills required to play pool are minimal. ANYBODY with two arms, two legs and an IQ no higher than my dog's can play pool. Don't give the game too much credit. Don't write off that skill level so quick. What the pros do is not so amazing. Yes, you are looking at years upon years of experience. You are looking at hundreds of thousands of balls pocketed but it is not inherent ability that allows them to succeed. I hear talk like that and I KNOW you're a C player who has become an expert at it. <hr /></blockquote>

You were able to determine that from just one little comment? LMAO! What I know is that you're letting your New Yawk macho talk get the best of you. You have NO CLUE how I play. LOL When did YOU become somebody that's a big name pro player in pool?

Btw, their natural gift is great hand/eye coordination that has to be inherent in all sports activities. I do agree about the IQ thing though. They certainly don't need to know physics and all the formulas associated with it.

Jude Rosenstock autographs available in the lobby. Please form a single line and have $20 ready for each signing. Pictures of him when he was once a C player before turning into a world class pro also available for an additional $10.

Fenwick
01-18-2008, 05:58 PM
I came here looking for help and advice not to stir the pot. I guess I also came here with a pre conceived notion that taping myself was a good idea. That was wrong of me. I just didn't want to practice bad habits! I have received permission from the owner so I will right or wrong see if taping helps me improve my game or not. My other mistake was thinking I would only get positive feed back. Shame on me. Jude, I may not agree with what you say but I will fight for your right to free speach. That's the Olive Branch and the ball is in your Court.

Bob_Jewett
01-18-2008, 06:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fenwick:</font><hr> What are your thoughts? Would a BCA coach / instructor suggest using this as a training tool? ... <hr /></blockquote>
If you would like some suggestions for angles for the camera and ball positions, see the free handout for Recognized Instructor training at http://www.sfbilliards.com/richandout.pdf

There is also a checklist of things you may want to look for available on the last page of the Basics Clinic handout at http://www.sfbilliards.com/basics.pdf

I wish I had seen video of myself playing in my first year or so. I managed to develop a serious stroke flaw that I feel kept me from playing up to potential. The problem was right in front of me for 15 years or so, if I had been bright enough to look -- it is very hard to see yourself without an external viewpoint. Of course, such a video may have just made me give up the game, which would have saved me a lot of time and effort. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

The main use of self-video is to show you problems in a way that's hard to ignore. Pretty much all of the flaws that you can see on screen you can also deduce some other way, like the fact that the "over the spots" drill back to your tip doesn't work for you because you've jumped up by the time the ball gets back. After you see whatever the problem is, you still have to figure out whether and how you're going to work on it.

Fenwick
01-18-2008, 09:17 PM
Thank you. I book marked the camera angles and the other help you posted. I was a machinist for 30 + years and worked in .25-.50/1,000,000 tolerances and can and do pay attention to minute details. I know I still have to figure out how I'm going to work on fixing or improving my problems. I also have to find the zone. I'm committed to put in 4-7 hours a day 4-6 days a week for the next 2 years. Last I will seek the advice of a BCA coach once a month. Thanks Again Sir.

Sid_Vicious
01-18-2008, 09:29 PM
IMHO, taping yourself on drills is super for seeing your fundamentals and why the first two strokes was good, and then the third sucked, aspecially if you were striving to break the barrier of doing three the same way. You wanna drill for purity using a camera? Take the #1 shot of Kinnister's instructional, lay a video camera over the pocket making the OB, and do that shot for hours, stopping to review after you feel and see entire success for that particular shot. You will find swerves, small movements, but best of all, you will see yourself really stroking it right and that will become infrained into your stroke after time. sid

BTW, use the slo-mo and replay for both the great shots you make and the errors. It's all to be seen, believe me sv

CarolNYC
01-19-2008, 06:07 AM
Hi,
I say "yes" it would be a good idea as long as after you see your mistakes,if any, you focus on the solution and correct them-sometimes people tape themselves and go play a match and remember "what was wrong""do I REALLY stand like that " "OMG" ha ha ha, and mess up-so,after you see whats wrong,fix it:)
Good luck!
Carol

CarolNYC
01-19-2008, 06:15 AM
Hi Art,
Jude has an impeccable reputation as a player and person in NYC-he is an open player along with Flaco,Steve Lipsky,Jonathon Smith,Chris Lynch-I think because you can't "hear him" your misunderstanding-he is the most soft spoken,patient person ,I think, in NY,ha ha ha-there is no animosity or arrogance here,believe me,he just speaks matter-of-factly and to the point:)
I started playing very late and I played 10 hours a day every day-living in NY I had top players to play against-of course I lost alot but you have to learn how to lose before you can win-Im not saying Im a great player but I've played against the great!
Have a nice day!
Carol~I'll take one of those autographs /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Artemus
01-19-2008, 07:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Hi Art,
Jude has an impeccable reputation as a player and person in NYC-he is an open player along with Flaco,Steve Lipsky,Jonathon Smith,Chris Lynch-I think because you can't "hear him" your misunderstanding-he is the most soft spoken,patient person ,I think, in NY,ha ha ha-there is no animosity or arrogance here,believe me,he just speaks matter-of-factly and to the point:)
I started playing very late and I played 10 hours a day every day-living in NY I had top players to play against-of course I lost alot but you have to learn how to lose before you can win-Im not saying Im a great player but I've played against the great!
Have a nice day!
Carol~I'll take one of those autographs /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

Maybe Jude is on the verge of "coming out of the closet" and becoming a truly combative, "up yours", vocal style New Yawka. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I certainly don't know him up close and personal as you do, only from the forums over time, and I've seen his progress and know that he can play. I was just giving him some good old fashioned pool room trash talk back, "IN YO FACE" style, or NY style. LOL

One thing I'd like to see Jude do is come clean with something, or maybe you can be his PR agent and just list it yourself. He has stated that you GOTTA put the time in practicing and hit a quadzillion balls, etc (which is true) and that is the ONLY thing that works. (which is not true)
However, he HAS NOT given credit to ALL the people that have influenced, trained and taught him how to do it the CORRECT way. That is a major difference most players don't have. Their advice comes from "Joe Banger" and it's like the blind leading the blind.

Let's face it, NYC probably has some of the best players and more of the best players than any other city. (those on the west coast or Chicago might take offense at that). And Jude has been given advice, mentored, taught, picked their brains, and watched their every move for a long time. I think it would be good to give credit where credit is due and list some of those names instead of going around all the time singing, "I DID IT MYYYYYY WAAAAAY".
You've more than likely had some of the same influences.
What say you? (I'll give you my autograph) /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Artemus
01-19-2008, 07:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Hi,
I say "yes" it would be a good idea as long as after you see your mistakes,if any, you focus on the solution and correct them-sometimes people tape themselves and go play a match and remember "what was wrong""do I REALLY stand like that " "OMG" ha ha ha, and mess up-so,after you see whats wrong,fix it:)
Good luck!
Carol <hr /></blockquote>

Herein lies the problem, Carol. What if he misdiagnoses the cause and effect? What if he doesn't KNOW all of the various causes and effects as a bona fide instructor would? What if he's applying the proper solution to a non-existent problem? What if he's applying the wrong solution to an existing problem?

Then he plans on spending hours and days at a time for 2 years and if it doesn't go right THEN he'll seek the advice of a BCA instructor. What's wrong with this picture? Everything seems totally bassackwards to me.

CarolNYC
01-19-2008, 10:23 AM
Sorry,Art,
[ QUOTE ]
becoming a truly combative, "up yours", vocal style New Yawka.
<hr /></blockquote>
But your way off on that one-is that your image of NY'ers?
I think I mentioned before how I like to read peoples stories ,here, and achievements-but its funny how each of us reads things differently when we havent actually met the person-but thats okay-Im no judge-everyones entitled to feel the way they feel and their own opinion /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
As for Jude, anyone who has or plays Amsterdam plays with the best, so ,Im sure he has as many,if not,more influences from the NY players,as I have!
Carol

CarolNYC
01-19-2008, 10:27 AM
Art,
Fenwick stated,"I'm not suggesting using this instead of paying for lessons but as a starting point."
So,
[ QUOTE ]
Then he plans on spending hours and days at a time for 2 years and if it doesn't go right THEN he'll seek the advice of a BCA instructor <hr /></blockquote>
I dont think this is his intention /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I think he just wants to use it as a stepping stone /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
And,YEP, send the autograph /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Carol

wolfdancer
01-19-2008, 10:54 AM
Hi Carol!!, Good post, good thoughts!!
Unless one can't tell a bad stroke from a good stroke, etc,I see only a positive side of taping oneself...
It works wonders for golf...we don't always do what we think we are doing. Should work equally as well for pool.

Artemus
01-19-2008, 10:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr>
But your way off on that one-is that your image of NY'ers?
<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> Based on the way New Yorkers all came together during 9-11, absolutely NOT. I can't imagine any city coming together more cohesively and giving to each other than what happened there. But based on transposed New Yorkers living in Florida, you better believe it. I've never seen anything quite like it. They're combative, antagonistic, rude, at times just incredulous. I've seen them cut in line right in front of someone in the grocery store, battle for a parking spot and want to fight, shout obscenities while throwing the finger or waving their fist in a state of road rage, and bull their way in at a department store line like it was their God given right, all with regularity! Certainly not a good impression on ANY ONE. Is that profiling, bias, or an incorrect assumption? Nope, that's a FACT! And there's no error in identifying the accents or license plates on their cars.

However, the closest I ever got to NYC is Paramus, so I'll admit to possibly being waaay off base. Maybe I've watched too much Donald Trump, movies like "The Devil Wears Prada", and all the "Death Wish" movies. Please don't take personal offense. </font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr>
I think I mentioned before how I like to read peoples stories ,here, and achievements-but its funny how each of us reads things differently when we havent actually met the person-but thats okay-Im no judge-everyones entitled to feel the way they feel and their own opinion /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
As for Jude, anyone who has or plays Amsterdam plays with the best, so ,Im sure he has as many,if not,more influences from the NY players,as I have!
Carol <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> That having been said, if he did have that many influences (which I know he has), he was taught a lot of the correct ways. It's an entirely different ball game when you're practicing and playing correctly rather than hitting a zillion balls incorrectly. </font color>

wolfdancer
01-19-2008, 10:59 AM
Bob, thanks for the links...I've been going to tape a friend's game....mine is beyond video analysis.
Your problem couldn't have been that bad...I seem to recall
"NCAA Champion" in your resume !!!!

wolfdancer
01-19-2008, 11:55 AM
"The skills required to play pool are minimal. ANYBODY with two arms, two legs and an IQ no higher than my dog's can play pool. Don't give the game too much credit."
On Grady's first tape "Pool for intermediates....", he made the statement that pool was the most difficult sport to master. I was wondering if he had ever tried to hit a Major League fast ball, or split a fairway with a 300 yr drive.
But the tape while poorly edited and using a cheap camera, remains his best to date. (IMO)
"I hear talk like that and I KNOW you're a C player who has become an expert at it."
I wouldn't have written that, but having worked in pool rooms, I've seen a lot of "experts", giving unwanted and questionable advice to anyone they think is a ball below their own skill level.
Re: taping...I'm just a "B" player, or an overrated "C" player, myself...have the camera, tripod, etc...and keep saying I'm going to do it....but never get around to it....still, I think it might help???
I saw some good use of taping though at LV...the Cue-Tech staff had free video analysis, and many players took advantage of it. Since a friend was on the staff, I spent time each day watching the lessons.Having a qualified instructor point out the mistakes helped.
I think you still have to hit those X thousands of balls...

CarolNYC
01-19-2008, 12:14 PM
Hiya Jack,
how are ya? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Carol

CarolNYC
01-19-2008, 12:19 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Based on the way New Yorkers all came together during 9-11, absolutely NOT <hr /></blockquote>
Art,
It wasnt only NY-it was the whole country-we just got hit the hardest!

[ QUOTE ]
But based on transposed New Yorkers living in Florida, you better believe it. I've never seen anything quite like it. They're combative, antagonistic, rude, at times just incredulous. I've seen them cut in line right in front of someone in the grocery store, battle for a parking spot and want to fight, shout obscenities while throwing the finger or waving their fist in a state of road rage, and bull their way in at a department store line like it was their God given right, all with regularity! Certainly not a good impression on ANY ONE. Is that profiling, bias, or an incorrect assumption? Nope, that's a FACT! And there's no error in identifying the accents or license plates on their cars.
<hr /></blockquote>
Art, your killing me,here-I hate to burst your bubble,BUT, those are the ones WE THREW OUT OF NY! Ha HA HA!
Honestly, we're not all like that-we'd be the first to help and last to retreat /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Have a wonderful day!
Carol

pooltchr
01-19-2008, 12:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr>
Honestly, we're not all like that-we'd be the first to help and last to retreat /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Have a wonderful day!
Carol

<hr /></blockquote>

Is this the same Carol from NYC who couldn't handle Set, Pause and Finish until she changed it to "Lock and Load"?????? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Just Kidding!!!!! Actually, I agree. Most New Yorkers are as good hearted as you will find anywhere. You are a perfect example!
Steve

Artemus
01-19-2008, 12:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Based on the way New Yorkers all came together during 9-11, absolutely NOT <hr /></blockquote>
Art,
It wasnt only NY-it was the whole country-we just got hit the hardest!

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
But based on transposed New Yorkers living in Florida, you better believe it. I've never seen anything quite like it. They're combative, antagonistic, rude, at times just incredulous. I've seen them cut in line right in front of someone in the grocery store, battle for a parking spot and want to fight, shout obscenities while throwing the finger or waving their fist in a state of road rage, and bull their way in at a department store line like it was their God given right, all with regularity! Certainly not a good impression on ANY ONE. Is that profiling, bias, or an incorrect assumption? Nope, that's a FACT! And there's no error in identifying the accents or license plates on their cars.
<hr /></blockquote>
Art, your killing me,here-I hate to burst your bubble,BUT, those are the ones WE THREW OUT OF NY! Ha HA HA!
Honestly, we're not all like that-we'd be the first to help and last to retreat /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Have a wonderful day!
Carol

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>
Glad to hear that. Btw, can you give me a little help with about a $30,000 loan? I'm looking to make a down payment on a pre-owned Ferrari. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
(I PROMISE to pay you back when my tax return comes in) /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

mikepage
01-20-2008, 12:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jude_Rosenstock:</font><hr> My point of bringing up the musician was simply to illustrate the point that it's a feel and thought-process you're trying to learn, not a visual concept you can capture on video. Digging up a musical opinion on learning is simply being argumentative and serves no purpose. It's the internet. You can find every opinion ever imaginable about there and I'm sure it's written well so what's your point? <hr /></blockquote>

lol. I guess perspectives differ. I saw you as trying to bolster a weak argument with a strikingly poor analogy, and me as calling you on it.




[ QUOTE ]
Your A+B or B+C or whatever it is you're talking about is complete nonsense. YOU HAVE TO HIT BALLS and that's it. <hr /></blockquote>

No it's not nonsense. Spending a small amount of time doing some other things doesn't mean you *don't* hit balls.

[...]

[ QUOTE ]
I watch people use video. It does them no good. NONE. They think, at first, it's something revolutionary like it will answer all their questions and then it becomes this sort of routine that they barely ever review unless something incredibly miraculous happens. They ran 4 racks and have to show it to everyone! But what is that? Is that the answer to all their problems? How do you solve these problems you might have?

The reasons for missing versus making are so subtle. We're talking tenths of an inch and sometimes less and yet, so many different things happen when you're successful versus when you're not.

What you have to do, in order to be successful consistently is work on your muscle memory and routine. You get this from ACTUAL play. Video won't answer it. If you want to watch others play, that's one thing. That can give you answers to scenarios that you haven't successfully dealt with before but that's different. you're watching someone else. Watching yourself? Pointless.
<hr /></blockquote>

Your reaction here seems kind of extreme to me. Nobody's talking about videotaping yourself regularly and reviewing the tapes before every tournament. We're talking about taking 15 minutes and videotaping yourself once from a few perspectives you don't normally have to determine whether your stroke is straight.

There can NEVER be any value?? NONE??

I think your response is more emotional than rational.

Fenwick
01-20-2008, 01:26 PM
("Then he plans on spending hours and days at a time for 2 years and if it doesn't go right THEN he'll seek the advice of a BCA instructor.") Either you misunderstood because I miss wrote or are taking my words out of context. I plan on taping for 1 hour off and on after a warm up. I will also wear a mikecrophone to record my thoughts. Total taping time, 15-20 minutes using angles suggested by Bob_Jewett and the comments and encouragement given by Sid_Vicious and others here. I will go home, review the tape and see what I can learn. I can also view it before playing or practicing again that day. I do not plan on taping every day but perhaps as often as twice a week. Nor did I mean to say after 2 years I would seek the help of a BCA instructor. More like once a week to track my progress. I honestly never thought this was a controversial idea. I'll try to chose my words more carefully from this point on.

Artemus
01-20-2008, 02:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fenwick:</font><hr> I plan on taping for 1 hour off and on after a warm up. I will also wear a mikecrophone to record my thoughts. Total taping time, 15-20 minutes using angles suggested by Bob_Jewett and the comments and encouragement given by Sid_Vicious and others here. I will go home, review the tape and see what I can learn. I can also view it before playing or practicing again that day. I do not plan on taping every day but perhaps as often as twice a week. <hr /></blockquote>

Fenwick, I wish you luck on this. I'd like to see you come into the other thread regarding "self-diagnosis" and throw your 2 cents in on some of the problems.

The reason I say that is because taping is only as good as your ability to diagnose properly and correct the problem.

I might have someone teach me how to hook myself up with electrodes to take my own EKG, but if I have no clue what to look for, what's normal or abnormal, what good does it do? Maybe I could take my own X-ray. Just line myself up, click the button and then develop the film. Again, if I don't know how to read it and make a proper diagnosis what good does it do? Even if I took a one in a million stab and got it right, my solution to the problem might not be the solution of choice by a professional Dr.
Come on over to the wild side of that thread.

Btw, here is a copy and paste job of what you posted:
"I'm committed to put in 4-7 hours a day 4-6 days a week for the next 2 years. Last I will seek the advice of a BCA coach once a month."

To ME that read you were going to work your butt off for the next two years and if it didn't get as good as you want, THEN "LAST" you would seek the advice of a BCA instructor. It's no biggie. Hey, I'll take the blame for misinterpreting.

Fenwick
01-20-2008, 05:24 PM
You are correct, I did say as I was quoted and changed my words. Good catch. Once a month to once a week but that was before and after speaking to the house pro and working out a deal. My bad. Regarding the "self-diagnosis" thread, if that is a genuine invite?; give me a few weeks to see if I'm able to help myself improve first. I don't know even if I do improve I could put it into words other then the results. My 2 cents might not be worth a plug nickel. On C-Span Book review there was a author from Italy who said one thing different about Americans is they do not view failure as failing. So at least I'm trying something to improve my game the best way I can right now.

Scott Lee
01-20-2008, 11:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>

The reason I say that is because taping is only as good as your ability to diagnose properly and correct the problem.

I might have someone teach me how to hook myself up with electrodes to take my own EKG, but if I have no clue what to look for, what's normal or abnormal, what good does it do? Maybe I could take my own X-ray. Just line myself up, click the button and then develop the film. Again, if I don't know how to read it and make a proper diagnosis what good does it do? Even if I took a one in a million stab and got it right, my solution to the problem might not be the solution of choice by a professional Dr.
Come on over to the wild side of that thread.
<hr /></blockquote>

Excellent post, and spot on. Without the knowledge of what to look for, as well as the correct application to correct specific errors, self-analysis video is of limited value. I'd suggest investing in a lesson with a qualified instructor, who clearly understands the how's, when's, where's, and why's, of videotape analysis as a starting point. I do a complete video stroke analysis with EVERY student, as a starting point for any lesson (even a pro gets the same run-through). This takes anywhere from 1-2 hours or more...but it gives the student a VERY clear understanding of what to look for, and a clear path on how to make the corrections. I also videotape the remainder of the lesson, so that they have all the information, and a workbook to refer back to.

Scott Lee

wolfdancer
01-21-2008, 11:37 AM
Good luck on your practice regimen!! I don't have much patience for drills, so I usually just play some 9 ball against the ghost, or try to run a rack of 15 balls.
I'm of the opinion that video taping oneself could be beneficial. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see something erratic in one's stroke, or to see that your cue isn't aligned properly.
But I'm also "sold" on the SPF instruction method that emphasizes good mechanics, before moving on to the mundane things like pocketing balls, and getting position. (I skipped that step in my own "mastery" of the game)

wolfdancer
01-21-2008, 12:02 PM
"Without the knowledge of what to look for, as well as the correct application to correct specific errors, self-analysis video is of limited value. I'd suggest investing in a lesson with a qualified instructor,"
Scott, I believe that he does intend to take lessons, along with the self taping. Also think even a rank beginner could pick up some obvious errors, on their own..
A friend of mine, BCA Master player, reached the finals in the monthly tournament yesterday...they split the $$.
He played pretty good, but in the semi's made two "lunges", weird strokes....WE all noticed them, but when someone pointed that out afterwards, he wasn't aware of it. I think a rank beginner would be making several of those "strokes" in a taping session....
I might have to start charging here at my "room"....on Friday before we left for the 8 ball tournament, I showed a friend the Colin Colenso power break video, and he tried it several times...then won $50 in the 8 ball break pot.
They other guy came over on both Sat and Sun to get some practice in before the 9 ball event...and picked up $700 as his share of the split.
I don't know if it was practicing on my 9 ft'r with the 4" corner pockets, or the "great" breakfasts I made for us....
He really took a chance on that, because I can't boil water.
My cooking is on par with my pool play....
I did manage to split the pot on the Sun Scotch doubles event though...thanks to the luck of the draw, getting me a good partner.
I thought that the Pam Anderson self tapes were very inspirational, and I learned a lot from them even though I didn't have a "pro" to assist me......

wolfdancer
01-21-2008, 12:07 PM
Pool????
They had a pool table on Gilligan's Island???? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fenwick
01-22-2008, 06:02 PM
Long story made short; it took until today to tape a good practice session; 2 1/2 hours, with the correct camera position and shutter speed. I saw one major flaw while viewing the tape. I poke on hard follow and hard draw. In fact almost every miss was due to poking or jabbing. When my stroke ended with a nice follow threw I felt the shot was a success. Doesn't mean every ball went in. That one adjustment alone may add 5 balls to my runs shooting straight pool and improve my break shots during the game. It may also help with getting better position? Does it mean don't get help from a coach, no! I now have at least one thing to work on to help improve my game this week. Feedback welcome!

Scott Lee
01-23-2008, 05:23 PM
Fenwick...It's still likely that you don't know what you're looking at, or how to tell if it is a "good stroke" or not. Just because you think you followed through, doesn't make it a good stroke. Followthrough is not something we cause to happen...it happens because we FINISH the stroke correctly. If you really want to get some good feedback, find an instructor who can show you what to look for, and how to see it in slow motion video. Then, at least, you'll know how to use video analysis to your best advantage.

Scott Lee

Deeman3
01-23-2008, 05:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> "The skills required to play pool are minimal. ANYBODY with two arms, two legs and an IQ no higher than my dog's can play pool. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> If you'd seen the guy at Derby City with no arms playing, you'd know how right you are. Two stubbs and a rubber band to hold one part of the cue and could run a few balls. He played a guy in a wheelchair and impressed most of us there. </font color>

wolfdancer
01-24-2008, 09:54 AM
Dee, that must have been something to see.
That was not my statement though, re pool...i think I was quoting Jude?
I have recently learned that it takes a degree in Physics, plus a working knowledge of Euclid's postulates to actually play the game with some expertise
1. A straight line segment can be drawn joining any two points.

2. Any straight line segment can be extended indefinitely in a straight line.

3. Given any straight line segment, a circle can be drawn having the segment as radius and one endpoint as center.

4. All right angles are congruent.

5. If two lines are drawn which intersect a third in such a way that the sum of the inner angles on one side is less than two right angles, then the two lines inevitably must intersect each other on that side if extended far enough. This postulate is equivalent to what is known as the parallel postulate. (This one is used only for masse shots)
/ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Artemus
01-24-2008, 10:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jude_Rosenstock:</font><hr> The skills required to play pool are minimal. ANYBODY with two arms, two legs and an IQ no higher than my dog's can play pool. <hr /></blockquote>

A few days right after Xmas, I had to go out of town for a little over a week on an unexpected trip. While in the other city, I had a chance to go to a pool room two times in the middle of the afternoon and shoot for about 3 hours each time.

There were only a couple of guys in the room shooting alone and they didn't look too interested in matching up or playing for anything so I just played on my own table.

Both days right after I started playing, the same guy came in and also got a table, once right next to me and the 2nd day a few tables down. As soon as he got his coat off and racked the balls, he immediately began a constant and ongoing conversation with himself (or somebody else and maybe even a party of people) in a normal tone speaking voice. At first I thought he was speaking to me, but after my initial WTF is THIS reaction, I just kept playing and so did he. The most hilarious thing was when he told himself (or the others) something funny, he would start this deep bellied, deep throated boogeyman laugh that we all used to be afraid of as kids, but he was really laughing and having a great time.

I've seen some real characters in pool rooms over the years, but I have NEVER seen anything quite like him. LMAO
A couple of times we were on sides of our table and he bumped into me and he very politely said, "excuse me" and then went back to carrying on his conversation. For 3 hours both days, it was NON STOP replete with the laughter.

I didn't DARE ask him to play because I didn't know which person I would be up against, so I occasionally just watched him to see how he shot and what he was doing. At first I thought he was breaking full racks of balls and just trying to run the table, but eventually I realized he was playing 8 ball against another person. The sob rarely missed! He was like some savant with the cue and balls.
I honestly don't know how intelligent he was, for all I know he was a genius that went bonkers, but I think Jude was closer to being right in his statement, than one who feels you must be an academician for this game.

MROOOOOO-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!

SKennedy
01-24-2008, 11:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Dee, that must have been something to see.
That was not my statement though, re pool...i think I was quoting Jude?
I have recently learned that it takes a degree in Physics, plus a working knowledge of Euclid's postulates to actually play the game with some expertise
1. A straight line segment can be drawn joining any two points.

2. Any straight line segment can be extended indefinitely in a straight line.

3. Given any straight line segment, a circle can be drawn having the segment as radius and one endpoint as center.

4. All right angles are congruent.

5. If two lines are drawn which intersect a third in such a way that the sum of the inner angles on one side is less than two right angles, then the two lines inevitably must intersect each other on that side if extended far enough. This postulate is equivalent to what is known as the parallel postulate. (This one is used only for masse shots)
/ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I have started to extrapolate to determine just how good I could really be if I actually made a shot once in a while! I would be much better if the number of pockets were 10 times as numerous and randomly spaced, the table much smaller, and I hit the ball such that it traveled an infinite distance until pocketed. Who needs instruction....we just need to modify the equipment! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

wolfdancer
01-24-2008, 11:25 AM
I'm still trying to work out the coefficient of restitution of these bumpers in the middle of my table

Artemus
01-24-2008, 11:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SKennedy:</font><hr> I would be much better if the number of pockets were 10 times as numerous and randomly spaced, the table much smaller, and I hit the ball such that it traveled an infinite distance until pocketed. Who needs instruction....we just need to modify the equipment! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I think the equipment has already been modified. Sounds like you may have just described something they call a "pinball machine". /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

SKennedy
01-24-2008, 11:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I'm still trying to work out the coefficient of restitution of these bumpers in the middle of my table <hr /></blockquote>
To heck with the calculations, just replace the bumpers with big pockets! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott Lee
01-29-2008, 12:18 AM
Sir...I received your PM, and tried to reply, but you declined to take any. Let me say first, that I think your efforts are commendable. Video review is imperative for spotting setup and delivery flaws, that can go unnoticed for years and years. There is, unfortunately, not a lot of information out there about how to videotape one's self, nor how to objectively review said video. My comments to you were strictly geared to attempting to save you time and effort, by finding out some critical data beforehand (and it's much more than what's listed on Bob's site...although those suggestions are good). As instructors we find MOST players think that they have a pretty good stroke already...until small critical items are pointed out in video analysis. I'd be happy to provide you with some information to help you in your pursuit. Please email me at poolology@aol.com

Scott Lee