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View Full Version : The low hit jump shot defined



bradb
01-16-2008, 06:53 PM
Bob, Dave, Fran and others from the previous post:

This is a diagram of the shot I was trying in my feeble way to describe in the other thread.
. http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/brad1943/LowhitJumpshot.jpg

The shot should be executed as if attempting a power draw, buts its a bit more of a punch shot. The tip aiming point is below the center line, the follow through stops short of the surface.

If you hear a clicking sound then you've hit the ferrule. But when its done correctly, only the Qtip hits the Qball. It swipes down the ball a bit as it goes forward.

Because it hits below the equator its defined as an illegal shot. But in all fairness it does not scoop the ball or hit the ferrule as a mis cue. When hit cleanly it appears even smoother than a jump shot actually and doe'nt bounce around as much.

I am not arguing that this shot should be allowed but it does pose the question... how does this shot differ with the rules compared to the top hit jump shot if it is hit properly? Niether shot is a mis cue. -brad

Ralph_Kramden
01-16-2008, 07:09 PM
bradb - This is a great diagram. I have tried this shot before and can really jump the ball as you describe, but... I do think it is an illegal jump because the ball is struck below the centerline.

To be a legal jumpshot the cue has to drive into the ball and make it jump up from the table surface as I understand the ruleing.

bradb
01-16-2008, 07:33 PM
Ralph, yes what you say is true, I am just posing the question that if this shot also forces the ball to go up through similar means because of a downward force is it theoretically the same shot? The difference is the back spin helps the propel it forward.

bsmutz
01-16-2008, 07:47 PM
I would think it would be very hard to determine if the hit was below center from a ref's viewpoint as long as there was no sound of a miscue. I could see where this shot could be made accidentally by not hitting above center as you may have intended.

Bob_Jewett
01-16-2008, 08:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph_Kramden:</font><hr> ... but... I do think it is an illegal jump because the ball is struck below the centerline. ... <hr /></blockquote>
The height of tip-to-ball contact is not relevant under the current World Standardized Rules. The shot illustrated, if played without a miscue, is a legal shot. And, as was pointed out, it would be virtually impossible for the ref to tell whether the tip hit below the equator or not.

bradb
01-16-2008, 08:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> The height of tip-to-ball contact is not relevant under the current World Standardized Rules. The shot illustrated, if played without a miscue, is a legal shot. And, as was pointed out, it would be virtually impossible for the ref to tell whether the tip hit below the equator or not. <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks Bob. You are right in saying its hard to tell where the tip is hitting, in fact I'm not completely sure where i'm hitting it myself as I am looking down on it and it appears to me thats where I'm aiming in the diagram.

When this shot is missed its an obvious foul but when hit cleanly its very accurate. The power determines the distance of the jump, but you can hop over a ball with little power when up close to the OB.

Fran Crimi
01-16-2008, 09:31 PM
Good diagram, Brad. It looks like the intent of the shooter (you, of course) was to strike the cb at or near the equator line. Once we start allowing players to shoot visibly below center, things will get kind of sticky the way the new rules and definitions regarding jumps, misuces and scoops are worded. But hey, that's just my opinion. We'll just have to wait and see what controversies evolve over the next few years. I think the pros will still attempt to strike the cb above or near center because that's how they trained to shoot jump shots. It's with the amateur players where I believe the problems in rule interpretations will arise.

We shall see....

Fran

Bob_Jewett
01-16-2008, 09:53 PM
Another shot to consider is the sort of follow-draw shot in which the stick is elevated to only 15 degrees or so and played with power draw to a fairly close object ball. The cue ball is slightly airborne when it arrives at the object ball and does not jump over it but does jump forward some before it draws back. This shot can get you over or around obstacles before the draw can take. Under the old rule, this shot was technically illegal, although I doubt anyone was ever called for it.

av84fun
01-17-2008, 01:04 AM
Thanks for the diagram. A couple of points.

First, any such diagram is a little misleading in that there seems to be a LOT of room below the depicted tip contact point but actually, there isn't.

The lower half of the surface of the CB, being a sphere, begins to rapidly angle away from the tip and "underneath" the ball such that it would be nearly impossible to strike it below the stripe on a 9 ball, for example without simultaneously contacting the bed of the table...and a miscue would result in any event.

Taking your diagram to the table, it is clear that hitting even as slightly below the centerline would be the virtual maximum low hit without miscueing.

Moreover, I don't think it would be any more difficult to detect such a low hit than the other shots I mentioned in an earlier post...i.e. whether there is a "good hit" on the lowest of two OBs sitting very close to each other.

But most importantly, I can't imagine why anyone would intentionally hit so low in the first place. The mechanics of a jump shot involves applying a downward moment of force on the CB and relying on Newton to produce an opposite reation...i.e. a rebound of the CB off the table surface.

Striking below the centerline will impose a greater ratio of FORWARD force relative to the ratio of DOWNWARD force which is what causes the CB to jump.

There is, of course, a point of diminishing returns when striking the CB at increasingly elevated angles because, if you hit TOO high at too great an approach angle, then the cue tip will prevent the CB from jumping at all.

I can carry a jump shot over a ball 4 full diamonds away and of course, Massey can launch it into a boot several feet beyond the table.

But attempting to jump with a below center hit from a jacked up position, I was able to only get a one ball height....if that.

Of course, like everyone else, when shooting a hard draw with as level as possible cue I have embarrassingly launched the cb off the table but that shot is an obvious foul and relies (AFAIK) on the CB riding up onto the ferrule.

So, I guess my question is...legal or illegal...why would anyone choose to shoot a jump shot that way?

Regards,
Jim

bradb
01-17-2008, 12:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> Thanks for the diagram. A couple of points.

First, any such diagram is a little misleading in that there seems to be a LOT of room below the depicted tip contact point but actually, there isn't.

------------

(brad)I may have added a little too much below hit, I may be a 1/4 to 1/2 tip off, but I can honestly say this is where I'm aiming. This is a small area to hit but with practise it can be done repeatedly.)

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The lower half of the surface of the CB, being a sphere, begins to rapidly angle away from the tip and "underneath" the ball such that it would be nearly impossible to strike it below the stripe on a 9 ball, for example without simultaneously contacting the bed of the table...and a miscue would result in any event.
Taking your diagram to the table, it is clear that hitting even as slightly below the centerline would be the virtual maximum low hit without miscueing.

------------

(brad) It takes practice, its usually not a miscue if you fail, it just does'nt jump. Its a punch shot with a short stroke.)

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Moreover, I don't think it would be any more difficult to detect such a low hit than the other shots I mentioned in an earlier post...i.e. whether there is a "good hit" on the lowest of two OBs sitting very close to each other. But most importantly, I can't imagine why anyone would intentionally hit so low in the first place. The mechanics of a jump shot involves applying a downward moment of force on the CB and relying on Newton to produce an opposite reation...i.e. a rebound of the CB off the table surface.

Striking below the centerline will impose a greater ratio of FORWARD force relative to the ratio of DOWNWARD force which is what causes the CB to jump. There is, of course, a point of diminishing returns when striking the CB at increasingly elevated angles because, if you hit TOO high at too great an approach angle, then the cue tip will prevent the CB from jumping at all.

---------------

(brad) Its a low angle hit applying both downward and forward force. The backspin seems to help lift the QB. Because it is a lower angle stroke you can execute it when its farther up the table plus you can use your regular cue. The things you describe are also the factors that make a regular jump shot difficult. Both shots require a lot of practice.)

---------

I can carry a jump shot over a ball 4 full diamonds away and of course, Massey can launch it into a boot several feet beyond the table. But attempting to jump with a below center hit from a jacked up position, I was able to only get a one ball height....if that.
Of course, like everyone else, when shooting a hard draw with as level as possible cue I have embarrassingly launched the cb off the table but that shot is an obvious foul and relies (AFAIK) on the CB riding up onto the ferrule.

So, I guess my question is...legal or illegal...why would anyone choose to shoot a jump shot that way?

----------

(brad) I think for long distance the traditional jump is better, this jump is good for short distance, its not as noisy and seems more controlled. On this shot, it looks great when I hit it right, but its an awful mess and an obvious mis cue if I don't follow through. Its a little unerving to stab down at your table, you really have to commit to the stroke and I have missed it many times.
Having said all this I don't think I will try it in the league, its too different and would probably be challenged. But then again most pool clubs ban the jump shot anyway.)

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Regards,
Jim <hr /></blockquote>

--Cheers, bradb

(---PS sorry, but I can't get the damn color type to work)

<font color="blue"> </font color>

Ralph_Kramden
01-18-2008, 02:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph_Kramden:</font><hr> ... but... I do think it is an illegal jump because the ball is struck below the centerline. ... <hr /></blockquote>
The height of tip-to-ball contact is not relevant under the current World Standardized Rules. The shot illustrated, if played without a miscue, is a legal shot. And, as was pointed out, it would be virtually impossible for the ref to tell whether the tip hit below the equator or not. <hr /></blockquote>

I know there has been much controversy regarding this subject lately. My thoughts about having to contact the ball above the horizontal equator line to make the ball jump have changed since reading all the posts on this board in other threads. I'm now more confused.

Looking at the high speed videos posted in another thread has convinced me that there is no way that the ball, as stated elsewhere on this board, can "ride up the ferrule" unless it gets trapped between the rail and the cue or it is contacted by the cue on a completely off center hit. The ball couldn't ride up the ferrule on a direct hit because it would have already jumped too high to clear the diameter of cuetip.

If the jumpshot with an elevated cue hit below the horizontal equator line is a legal shot and the scoop shot hitting with a level cue contacting the table before the ball, or hit with a miscue is an illegal shot, there must be something in the 'tween' that would make sense to everyone.
Maybe a statement that says, "A cueball jumped over another ball must be hit in such a manner that the cue elevation is determined to be high enough so that the cuetip can not make table contact before it makes contact with the cueball."

IMO this, on jumpshots higher than a ball, would make only elevated cuestick jumpshots legal no matter where the cuetip contacts the cueball and an illegal jump with a level cue would be clearly visible. Any ball that could possibly be hit by the ferrule with an elevated cue could only be pushed forward and would not jump.

Just a thought on the subject. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Ralph_Kramden
01-18-2008, 11:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph_Kramden:</font><hr>
Maybe a statement that says, "A cueball jumped over another ball must be hit in such a manner that the cue elevation is determined to be high enough so that the cuetip can not make table contact before it makes contact with the cueball."
<hr /></blockquote>
I think the statement written above needs to be more clearly understood. The statement probably should be more definitive about the cue elevation and read as follows:

"A cueball jumped over another ball must be hit in a manner that raises the cue butt to an elevated angle high enough that the cue tip would have to pass by the edge of the equator from above the ball before it could make contact with the table suface."

Just a suggestion on my part. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif